Speaker A
Okay, Justin. How in the world did a Navy SEAL become a fine artist? How did a Navy SEAL become a fine artist? Your guess is as good as mine.
Discussion on Christian nationalism, Baptist and Presbyterian views, and the SBC's role in public theology with Albert Mohler and Doug Wilson.
Key Takeaways
- Christian nationalism is a contested and evolving term often used to describe biblical Christianity's public influence.
- There are significant theological differences within Protestantism regarding the church's role in government and society.
- Baptist and Presbyterian traditions offer distinct but sometimes overlapping perspectives on political engagement.
- Understanding historical and theological foundations is crucial for navigating contemporary Christian political involvement.
- The Southern Baptist Convention remains a major but complex player in American evangelical public life.
Summary
- The video features a conversation between Doug Wilson, Albert Mohler, Jared Longshore, and Joe Rigney about Christian nationalism and related theological-political issues.
- Albert Mohler shares his long-standing interest in the intersection of theology, morality, and government, emphasizing biblical Christianity's role in the public square.
- The discussion highlights a new Canon Press project presenting five views on Christian nationalism from diverse theological perspectives including Baptists, Presbyterians, and a Roman Catholic.
- Differences between Kuyperian postmillennialism and classical magisterial Protestantism are explored, illustrating varied theological approaches to church-state relations.
- Mohler identifies as a historic evangelical Baptist shaped by the Geneva tradition and emphasizes the necessity of the new birth in political and social engagement.
- The participants discuss the complexity of Baptist identity and its implications for understanding the relationship between citizen and saint in governance.
- The video also touches on the Southern Baptist Convention's influence and challenges within American evangelicalism.
- The conversation aims to clarify reasoning behind political and theological positions rather than merely voting preferences or platforms.
- The dialogue includes reflections on historical figures like Samuel Rutherford and Edmund Burke as intellectual influences.
- The video sets the stage for deeper engagement with Christian nationalism and encourages thoughtful discourse on faith's public role.
Chapters
- 00:00Introduction and Navy SEAL Artist Story
- 02:41Albert Mohler on Christian Nationalism and Public Theology
- 05:01Theological Perspectives: Kuyperian vs Magisterial Protestantism
- 07:30Baptist Identity and Historical Influences
- 10:30Announcement of the Canon Press Project
- 15:08Discussion on Southern Baptist Convention and Evangelicalism
- 19:34Reflections on Political Engagement and Theological Reasoning
- 23:00Conclusion and Final Thoughts on Christian Nationalism
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
I'm just blown away by your raw talent. There's not a doubt in my mind you're going to be in a museum.
Speaker A
I was missing something because I didn't want to be with my family. I wanted to be with the platoon.
Speaker A
And so I saw myself this idolization of my career. And also I'm seeing guys in 20 years and they're on their fourth marriage and you're kind of like, is that what happens if I keep doing this?
Speaker A
You know, is that where it ends up? And I got my wife at home with three kids.
Speaker A
What happens if I end up destroying the very thing that I joined to protect?
Speaker A
Well, welcome to another edition of Doug Wilson and Friends. And this is a little special episode. We've got friends here and there. Three former Baptists sitting here in the studio: Doug Wilson as always, Jared Longshore, and Joe Rigney.
Speaker A
Joined by one current Baptist, Dr. Albert Mohler from Baptist and then some. Baptist. Baptist.
Speaker A
Baptist pope. The Baptist pope. Baptist and a Baptist about to give an invitation. That's right. [laughter] Amen. Amen. Alter call.
Speaker A
That's right. So very good. So Dr. Mohler coming to us from Louisville there. And so Dr. Mo, thanks for joining us on this little show we have.
Speaker A
Glad to be with you. Well, one of the reasons we wanted to have the show is we have Canon just announced a new project that's been in the works now for probably more than a year. And we're very excited about it.
Speaker A
It's five views on Christian nationalism, and the views are Doug, myself, and you, along with Rusty Reno and Paul Miller. It's a really exciting project, very important conversation, and I'm just curious maybe for you to kind of weigh in on what led you to want to be a part of a project like that.
Speaker A
We pitched it to you and you were gracious enough to join us, but why would you think that this is such an important thing to be a part of?
Speaker A
Well, I guess I've been grappling with these issues ever since I was about 13 years old. And I have been very, very, very obsessively interested in understanding the history, understanding morality, theology, the claims of God and the claims of government, trying to figure out how all these things work.
Speaker A
And so I've really been deeply in these issues for a very long time. I've also lived long enough to know that those who believe in biblical Christianity having an impact in the public square, the opposing side has a limited vocabulary at any given time.
Speaker A
So I've been called the right, the far right, the old right, the new Christian right, the new radical Christian right. You just go down the list. Christian nationalism is in one sense just the latest label that folks have for talking about any ontological truth in the public square, and not to mention that which is explicitly rooted in scripture and in Christianity.
Speaker A
I have been calling for openness in calling for maximum Christian influence in the public square my whole life, and so I was very glad to be a part of this conversation. I do think there's some twists and turns here in the third decade of the 21st century that present the need for this kind of conversation, and I appreciated the invitation. I was glad to join with you.
Speaker A
I prefer the term really right.
Speaker A
[laughter] Yeah. Really right. I think just right would be good enough.
Speaker A
That's right. That's good. Yeah. So in this book, we've got two Presbyterians, myself and Pastor Wilson. And so people might wonder how are these five views? You got two guys in the room who pastor together. And I'd say the main difference that we set out was you come from kind of a Kuyperian postmillennial perspective.
Speaker A
I'm also postmillennial, right? But my roots are Van Till. Yes. Van Till, Kuyper, the old guard reconstructionist.
Speaker A
I was not one of them but a fellow traveler with them. And that's a different vector than classical magisterial Protestantism.
Speaker A
Which is the view that I kind of represent, is more of a classic magisterial two kingdoms. So we represented two different views there that maybe end up in similar places.
Speaker A
We'd all be happy if we got our way. Everybody would be happy but get there in different paths. And then Dr. Mohler, we have two Baptists.
Speaker A
So you and Paul Miller from Georgetown, but also kind of represent different streams within the Baptist tradition. And how do you kind of characterize your own view as a Baptist so that people can know what to expect as they hopefully pick up this book?
Speaker A
Yeah, I'm a Baptist, very much shaped by the magisterial Reformation and in particular by the Geneva tradition, and that channeled through its English-speaking expressions, especially in the 17th and 18th centuries.
Speaker A
And so I count Samuel Rutherford and other figures like that as very much a part of my intellectual world.
Speaker A
Edmund Burke also later as a very significant figure. And so I am someone who argues from a very historic Protestant perspective. I won't speak for Paul, but I think he comes from a different perspective, not so much theologically but in how he sees the role of Christianity in the public square.
Speaker A
And so, in one sense, I think saying Baptist is saying something very important in this conversation, but it doesn't determine where you go on many of these basic issues.
Speaker A
And so I think it's fair to say that the main difference I would have with you and with Doug has to do with the fact that I am a Baptist, as you formerly were, and I am still a Baptist, adamantly so.
Speaker A
And so I can't make a one-to-one equation between citizen and saint in the same way, right?
Speaker A
In terms of thinking through some of the structural issues. And so I think that's actually the main difference.
Speaker A
Right. Yeah. And I do think that's an important thing, is that on paper, you know, it's two Baptists, two Presbyterians, and a Roman Catholic or an American Roman Catholic. And I think that actually matters too with Rusty Reno.
Speaker A
But there are ways in which I would say Paul Miller's position, which he calls natural law republicanism and is kind of a species of classical liberalism and a principled pluralism, has a lot of affinities with certain Presbyterians as well.
Speaker A
There are plenty of Presbyterians in the PCA and the OPC who would probably be far more comfortable with Paul Miller's understanding of the relationship between the church and the state than they would mine or Doug's or even yours.
Speaker A
And so, yeah, exactly. So it's interesting the way that these lines, there are differences, but they cross in funny ways. And part of the goal of a book like this was not just to see what our conclusions would be about who we vote for or what political platform we'd support, but kind of what our reasoning is, how do we get to where we get, and show our work because those things matter down the road.
Speaker A
Yeah. There's another announcement. Excuse me. There's another factor to throw into this, and that is the fact that I'm a historic evangelical, which means I want to emphasize the absolute necessity of the new birth.
Speaker A
Well, that ties into the citizen-saint issue as well, right? And in New England, it caused all kinds of consternation for the Puritan Baptists there with things like the halfway covenant.
Speaker A
And these are complicated issues that we need to be having a discussion on, need to work through.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. What I was going to say is that when the announcement of the book came out, someone asked me about it and I said, you know, I think one...
Speaker A
just to see what our conclusions would be about who we vote for or um you know what what political platform we'd support, but kind of what our reasoning is. How do we get to where we get and uh
Speaker A
and show show our work because those things matter down the road. Yeah. There there's another announcement. Excuse me. Uh there's another factor to throw into this and that is the fact that um I'm a historic evangelical um which means I want to emphasize the
Speaker A
absolute necessity of the new birth. Well, that that ties into the citizen saint issue as well, right? And in New England, it caused all kinds of consternation for the PO Baptists there with things like the halfway covenant.
Speaker A
And uh these are complicated issues that we need to be having a discussion on, need to work through.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. What I was going to say is that I when the announcement of the book came out, someone asked me about it and I said, you know, I think one of the main dividing lines in the book is is the set
Speaker A
of heroes. Yeah. Right. And uh I think in many ways uh uh you know I shared with you both of you uh a very finite set of heroes uh and we may read them somewhat differently and again I have to read them as a Baptist
Speaker A
but it is a it is a different set of heroes. It's very interesting that when you get to the 20th century there really is this divergence that uh that appears and there's a long history to that among the Baptists as well as as you guys
Speaker A
would be first to say other Protestants. Al, I wonder if you would um could you just sketch out a little bit of what that divergence looked like in the 20th century as you mentioned maybe the American context, Baptist context. What
Speaker A
what what are what are how would you characterize those different set of heroes? I think well let's just take one of those heroes. Let's talk about his parts for a moment. Let's take Abraham Kyper Doug mentioned. I think it's really
Speaker A
interesting that the evangelical left loves Kyper, but that what they love is the transformationism and and you know across various areas of culture and and and you know the arts and all the rest.
Speaker A
What they really don't like is the Abraham Kyper who was so specific about the necessary structures of society [clears throat] and and and the necessary Christian influence uh in terms of the moral structure of of the society and and so I
Speaker A
think sometimes you can have the same name and you use them in different directions. But I I think what happened in evangelicalism in the 20th century is that many began to adopt a very secular understanding of the of the nation and
Speaker A
and often argued that it was necessarily so. I mean I think of the Marsden null tradition and some of these things Nathan Hatch others who are making all these arguments some of them were were actually very important to deal with.
Speaker A
But you know uh you also had among Baptists for instance an anti-atholicism that drove this radical effort to try to have a complete separation of church and state. They were afraid of parochial schools. Well you know they basically
Speaker A
helped to encourage you know the transgender movement by the fact that they they just wanted to eliminate you know the use of any such language. And of course they they claimed a Jeffersonian basis and and all the rest.
Speaker A
But you had a group like Americans United for Separation of Church and State that started out as Protestants and others united for separation of church and state. This radical separationism which quite frankly um is a disaster, right? Was from the get-go.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's one of the interesting things the uh there's a book called Let Men Be Free. Um that's on Baptists and Religious Liberty in the early republic by Obie Tyler Todd, which is actually really interesting because it does
Speaker A
demonstrate the diversity within Baptist circles all the way back to the founding. Um and that it hasn't been a monolithic tradition just as it hasn't in the Presbyterian. And so again, I think that these these questions, as you
Speaker A
said, are very they're perennial questions. We're always trying to figure out how do we as Christians relate to uh the wider world, the wider culture?
Speaker A
What's our duties and responsibilities? what are the different institutions and how do they relate? These are very important questions especially in the in the 21st century and so we're hopeful that this book will be a um you know
Speaker A
sheds a lot of light um by clarifying where the key questions are. I'm working through Philip Hamburger's book u separation of church and state now and he's got a I'm in the colonial era and he's making a very good point that the
Speaker A
Baptists um that people there were people back then making a pitch for separation church and state in the form that we now are suffering under. But the Baptists conservative Baptist were saying no not what we're after is li
Speaker A
religious liberty. What we're after is uh religious um um disestablishment. We don't want we don't want church tax over but but of course we want Christian morality to influence and suffuse the society, right? You know, everybody everybody thinks that.
Speaker A
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and Hamburger does a great job, by the way. I think that's a great book just for listeners to to to go spend some time in and and it's a big book.
Speaker A
You're going to spend some time in it. Yeah. But you know for Baptists it absolutely refutes the idea that John Leland and Isaac Bakis were some kind of strict separationists when it came to Christian morality and the society that
Speaker A
that Doug I think that's the big jump in the 20th century among uh the the liberals was that they jumped from separation of church and state and that's very problematic in itself to a separation from church and public
Speaker A
policy. Right. And and ultimately it's a separation of morality and state. Well, who in their right mind wants to separate [laughter] morality?
Speaker A
No, no. I promise that to not let any moral consideration affect anything that I do with the sword.
Speaker A
Yeah. Golly. Yeah. Well, so five views on Christian nationalism available for pre-order now. And uh along with this, we'll um in uh grace agenda in um August u we'll have a kind of a launch event and four of the
Speaker A
five authors it looks like will be there. Unclear if if Rusty will be able to join us. He's got other commitments, but um Dr. Dr. Muller will be there.
Speaker A
Paul Miller will be there. Of course, Doug and I will be there. And we'll spend a morning kind of um working around kind of extending out um some different questions uh from this as a as a way of launching the project. So, if
Speaker A
you haven't haven't got your tickets to Grace Agenda, um they're free and so you should go you should go get them now and join us. No excuse. Join us in August.
Speaker A
Um I want to transition though because uh Dr. you just got back from the uh Southern Baptist Convention's annual meeting. Uh and uh there were some big things that happened there and um and so uh I'd love to kind of break some of
Speaker A
those down with you, but but maybe as a as an initial question um maybe speak to kind of why. So we're a part of a very small um denomination. Um you know, couple hundred churches worldwide. Um, we like to think we punch above our
Speaker A
weight class, but uh, but we're still a very small. You're a part of the largest Protestant denomination in in the country. Um, and so maybe talk a little bit about why you think what happens at the Baptist Southern Baptist uh, annual
Speaker A
meeting um, matters for all everybody for everybody, Christians and non-Christians alike. Why do you think that matters?
Speaker A
There was a very liberal Baptist in the 20th century who said of the Southern Baptist that said that we not we may not be much but we are many. [laughter] I I I would say the math is at least the
Speaker A
the first story I mean you're talking about you know well over 10 million Southern Baptists and uh and and and you're about something like 40,000 churches spread across the United States. And so if you're talking about evangelical Christianity in the US, you
Speaker A
really can't do it without the SBC. Now, I want to be very clear. The SBC is not all there is to American evangelicalism, nor should it be, but it it it is a big organization. I mean, it is the biggest
Speaker A
evangelical group, you know, that you can actually go and see meeting. I think that's the fascinating thing. You know, we we hold a New England town meeting once a year and, you know, the messengers from the churches are all in
Speaker A
one room. The national press comes and and frankly, it's a spectacle. then they never seen anything like it. And uh so I I I do think the SBC has a lot of influence in the in the evangelical world. And then you know even the
Speaker A
secular society can't ignore us and I that's a stewardship. Yeah. Right. At the present time. Well, and not another uh u blessing is the SBC is the first huge denomination that reversed the trends of liberalism that successfully turned it around. Um all
Speaker A
the others went down uh when man was writing his um uh his great book Christianity in liberalism that was that disease was well advanced in the mid 20th century in the SBC.
Speaker A
This is ground zero, right? So that's the question I had Al was um obviously so I was in the SBC for a long time and been there on the floor of the convention and we were teamed up doing working against
Speaker A
the resolution nine stuff and all that and then your battle for the minds that YouTube of of you when you're becoming the president at Southern. Uh the these are so near and dear to my heart. Oh my goodness. I Well, I loved it. I loved it
Speaker A
to pieces. Um because obviously I went to I went to Southern for my masters and my PhD and um that the story of you getting in the saddle there and the whole thing with Molly Marshall and the women pastors being kind of like the
Speaker A
probably the crux issue that was going on back then. I guess that was early 90s.
Speaker A
Um and then knowing that we're battling that now in the SBC on a I know that I'd be interested for you to sketch first if you have any stories from your time in the beginning with with what it was like
Speaker A
dealing with Molly Marsh and all that stuff. Um and then connecting it to where is the battlefield now on the women preachers? We know you had a particular amendment I believe that passed. So could you talk about the
Speaker A
continuity and discontinuity from when you began and where the battle lines lies are now?
Speaker A
Yeah. You know one of the interesting things when I teach historical theology I always say you know one of the interesting tensions in Christianity is between what can be assumed and what must be articulated.
Speaker A
And and so you know uh 1700th anniversary of the council of Nika last year um you know what what can be assumed can no longer be assumed after Aras. So it has to now be articulated and that was at least the the the giant
Speaker A
achievement of Nika. Um in the Baptist tradition you know we didn't have a position on this issue because there was no need for it for a very very long time. I mean I can't imagine going to James Pedigrew Boyce
Speaker A
who founded this school and saying yeah this is we need an amendment in the SBC constitution because of this it would have made no sense but trends in the larger culture you know come they come into the church and so by the time I was
Speaker A
a student here in the 1980s the the women preacher agenda the egalitarian agenda was just radically on fire. I mean that that was a sinqua none among many people and when I was elected president by the conservatives to
Speaker A
confront that and correct that. Wow. As a matter of fact, the the man who made the the movie you're talking about was the son of an ordained woman who was the president of the student body when I was
Speaker A
elected. So [laughter] yeah, I see complete journalistic neutrality. But um but I mean look the things were horrible. you know when one of the members of the faculty here when I was a student was one of the founding members
Speaker A
of the religious coalition for abortion rights uh I mean this this institution had gone so far to the left and that's it's the reason why uh one of the prime reasons why Southern Baptist rose up and and I appreciate Doug what you said um
Speaker A
it happened in a smaller way among Missouri Senate Lutheran in the 1970s frankly Southern Baptists learned the tactics from from the uh conservatives learned from the Missouri Senate conservatives how to do this and uh and and gained a great deal of of
Speaker A
encouragement that way. It it it is possible that it that you know I think the difference between the why why man lost um you know Brad Longfield has that that great book just in terms of setting out uh fundamentalist modernists and
Speaker A
moderates and you know there's it's a threeparty system and in the northern Presbyterians the the middle went with the left rather than the right [clears throat] um in the SBC the middle was conservative enough the vast middle went
Speaker A
with the Right. Right. And uh and and frankly, they they ended up growing more conservative than I think they expected to be. And I think the issues basically forced this. You know, when I was elected president, I decided what I've got to do is
Speaker A
articulate everything out loud. And here's the thing. When you make the case for a biblical model of ministry, a biblical understanding based on the inherency of of scripture, you make that case to Southern Baptist, they agree with it because they can read it in the
Speaker A
Bible, right? And and so let me tell you the good news is uh the the vast vast majority of Southern Baptists are absolutely biblically sound on this issue. Uh we've we've every time it's reached the floor, the SBC has has voted
Speaker A
overwhelmingly as you know, most famously in the case of Saddleback, you know, which I I was the person asked to make that case. Uh it was just overwhelming.
Speaker A
My motion is not because there's a crisis in where Southern Baptists are today. My concern is where Southern Baptist will be. And look, there are some there are some troubling cases. You got 40,000 churches, you're going to have some
Speaker A
problems. You're going to have some issues. And uh so hopefully this will be guidance to Southern Baptists. And I we have to come back again and pass the by twothirds majority the next convention.
Speaker A
But you know that I think we would become at least the first free church denomination to constitutionalize this conviction.
Speaker A
So and that's that's what I'm behind. So, it's a two-year process. Um, yes. And is did your uh proposal is that part of the Baptist faith and message or is it going to be or is it No, it's already in the Baptist faith
Speaker A
and message. Okay. It's in the confession of faith. The office of pastor is limited to to men as qualified by scripture.
Speaker A
Okay. Uh and and that was expanded three years ago. Pastor, elder, overseer. Just to make sure we got the whole waterfront of the office cover.
Speaker A
She's not a pastor. She's a bishop. [laughter] Yeah. or or the a deaf move tried a nice try you might say on the part of one church in Texas was to say she's not a pastor she's a shepherd
Speaker A
right yeah which [laughter] you know I I I will tell you that grassroots Southern Baptist sniff that one out [laughter] so yeah so it wasn't an addition to the Baptist faith and message instead it was constitutional guidance about what it means to be in
Speaker A
close alignment with that that document right can I give you a history here that might be helpful in in about 30 years ago, a little more than 30 years ago now, 35 years ago, the convention for the first time faced the
Speaker A
LGBTQ issue and and by the way, it was long enough ago we didn't have the initials LGBTQ.
Speaker A
It was gay rights was what it was called then. And uh I was a part of helping the SBC then to constitutionalize it instantly.
Speaker A
So in other words, even before we had a revision of the Baptist faith and message, we already had a definition of marriage and sexuality. And so I I was a part of the effort to seek the to for
Speaker A
the SPC to constitutionalize that 35 years ago. Well, the good news is that it was a comprehensive statement and the issue has not arisen once on the floor of the SPC in 35 years.
Speaker A
I want the same success on this issue. That's very good. Right. So, and so the issue is that there's a way in which you're essentially trying to the the antibbody is in the system. The document, the Baptist faith and message is clear, but
Speaker A
the issue is can you marshall that antibbody against an infection um effectively or does it have to be this long drawn out process? Does it take up all the time? And so your amendment, like uh the previous version of it, uh
Speaker A
the law amendment a few years ago, right, was basically an attempt to give um the uh the the denomination an ability to use its its doctrinal statements in order to um clear out anything that's bad or correct if you
Speaker A
know churches don't have to leave. They can just correct their their views to be in alignment.
Speaker A
Yeah. You know, one of the interesting things among uh uh Protestant confessional [clears throat] conversation is that one of the one of the issues of utility, I think of Samuel Miller at Princeton, I know you guys will know of him and the use and utility
Speaker A
of creeds and confessions. One of the things one of the Yeah. such a classic work. It was it was it was it was basically uh copied into the bylaws of southern seminary. Okay.
Speaker A
Samuel Miller's work. But you know he he raises the point that creeds and confessions uh similar kinds of documents they also aid efficiency. In other words, we don't have to rethink this every year.
Speaker A
Right. Right. Exactly. So um so years have passed. It's it's got to pass by a two-thirds vote. It did. It's got to do the same again next year. And uh h how do you how do you foresee that going? Do
Speaker A
you do you feel like there's going to be a um kind of a you know empire strikes back from the from the other side? those who want to either are moderate or liberal who are trying to keep keep this
Speaker A
door open. Um, do you expect resistance or do you think at this point people kind of see it, as you said, as the way that the convention needs to go? How how do you kind of see that shaken out?
Speaker A
There's been a flood of angry response to the amendment. A flood of it. A flood of it. And uh there's one website that has probably I don't know dozens of articles already condemning the action.
Speaker A
I don't think one of them is written by an actual Southern Baptist. Sure. right?
Speaker A
You know, and uh so we have had an exodus. It really it was really a flood tide. Uh in the 1990s, we had the cooperative baptist fellowship before that the the Alliance of Baptists. So, in other words, a lot of these churches,
Speaker A
in fact, I haven't found an article yet written by someone who attacking the amendment who's actually a Southern Baptist. I'm I'm sure there's some Southern Baptists who disagree, most of them over the question of whether it's necessary in their view,
Speaker A
but uh yeah, though no, the theological left is just absolutely uh you know, enraged by this. I will tell you, they're helping me to make my case because like I say, you know, just look at those churches. They got the rainbow
Speaker A
flags out front. You know, one of the cases I've been trying to make for 30 plus years is that the hermeneutic is the same. If if you're going to apply a hermeneutic to justify a woman preacher, you've used the same hermeneutic is
Speaker A
there just to be picked up on the LGBTQ issues and unsurprisingly it is. So Al, I'd be interested to ask you. You have um you've been at Southern for a long time now. You got how many thousand how many thousands of seminarians come
Speaker A
through there every year? Well, we have we have between five and 6,000. Five and six thousand. You got these young men. You've been watching them over the years. you're like pastoring, leading, you're watching the signs of the times, that kind of thing. We had
Speaker A
resolution 9 and BLM and wokeness, that was a thing. Then you had COVID, that was a thing.
Speaker A
When you look at the young men coming through the seminary now, the general culture, and you're thinking, you know, for the next 10 years, you got this one amendment that we you got, what other principles are you mindful of? Are
Speaker A
you encouraged of what kind of directions do you see among them? Yeah, let me tell you a happy thing. Uh, which I pointed out to a secular reporter uh to a little bit of consternation.
Speaker A
I I pointed out everywhere you look, there are young people in strollers. Mhm. Uh, you know, it's it's a it's a it's a Genesis 1 and two picture of of health.
Speaker A
Uh, so I can just tell you that I I I the students who are coming are already conservative. I hope that makes sense.
Speaker A
In other words, they already are and and they're they're listening to all kinds of things long before they get here and they've been tested already. And so I would say the biggest change since I've been president is in how conservative
Speaker A
the students now are and especially the young men who want to be pastors. And u so yeah, I I think that you I think the question you asked was what what things am I concerned about? I'm concerned about diversion
Speaker A
uh into all kinds of of uh conversations that will detract from losing this the farm. So, um I think that's a problem for any institution, any organization the size of the SBC. I I think we we've got to remember this is just very basic.
Speaker A
And I'll tell you, these young guys are not the problem. They're not they're not they they are the solution. the the problem by and large is that um you know the SBC is big and and so it's it's got
Speaker A
all kinds of different you know groupings within it and I think uh even into the last 10 years or so there were some people who definitely wanted to move the SPC in a in a more well let's just say moderate direction. I'm trying
Speaker A
to use words carefully. Uh I don't think the SBC intends to move in any such direction which is why so many of those people are now gone. Yeah.
Speaker A
Um yeah, and it it seems like um you know, would you comment on the election of Willie Rice? Um who I know, you know, I believe you know pretty well and he's been a longtime fixture. Um but it
Speaker A
seemed like that was um received by many, you know, that going back to the secular news outlets who reported on it um as a kind of he's a reformist uh kind of figure in the SBC um and uh and one
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that is in a different kind of mold. So, how would you characterize kind of what you see his leadership um you know following after uh Clint Presley who from by all lights seemed to did do a bang-up job across the board. Everything
Speaker A
I've seen is he just for the two years he had it he just managed it well. But now you get a guy like Willie Rice. What do you see in terms of the role of that president as uh as a leader of the SBC?
Speaker A
I think there are two different dimensions to the SBC presidency and it I'm I'm glad to be asked the question. I hope this is helpful. there's an inside game and there's an outside game and uh Clint Presley was uniquely good at both
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of them and and it's because he just he's he's God's just given him an enormous personality and enormous heart uh and leadership ability. He he was uh a trustee at this institution for for over a decade and was the chairman of
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our board here. Um so I know of his leadership ability. He understood the inside game and the outside game. The inside game is where the president really has massive impact on the institution by his singular ability to name the people who will name or or or
Speaker A
nominate all the trustees of all the entities in the SPC. I just can't tell you how big a power that is. And uh this is personite personnel is policy, right? Personel personel is policy. Yeah. Yeah. That that that is the whole game in the SPC.
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That's how conservatives gain control. They found out if we elect a president that president's sole authority to name that committee that names the u the people who will choose the the the the trustees the board members of all the
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entities. So that that's the inside game. I think that uh that Josh Powell who was the other candidate who was also my board chairman and is a very very dear friend and is a very solid conservative um I think that the inside
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game would be very similar. I I I think their nominations would be very similar.
Speaker A
The outside game is messaging to the SBC and to the external world. And I I think that's where Willie was saying, you know, I think they're issues uh that that we need to uh address differently and and perhaps more uh more more
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directly. Um, both of them are dear personal friends and and uh I I just want to say I uh it was not a liberal conservative uh nomination conflict. It was it was two conservatives but they did have different different approaches,
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different personalities and you know Josh has been you know he's been chairman of this board. He's been he's been deeply involved in the denomination. Willie ran a little bit as an outsider. Now he's not an outsider to the SPC. He's an insider, but he was
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clearly saying, I think I think having been uh you know, from my position for a period of years, here's some things I think need to be addressed and I I think he's going to address them. I I think,
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you know, he he was he was elected. It was a big election. He was clearly elected and I I think he can claim a mandate moving forward.
Speaker A
So, going back to the inside game, the entities that you would appoint personnel over would be the seminaries, obviously, the ERLC. Anything else? the mission boards.
Speaker A
Was that mission boards international and the mission boards and then two other boards one's a you know retirement guidest stone it's called.
Speaker A
And uh by the way every Southern Baptist is for Guidest doing well. I can just tell you that again [laughter] retirement fun because we're all headed there.
Speaker A
That's right. Yeah, that's right. So the uh the other is the is what used to be the Sunday school board now is known as Lifeway.
Speaker A
Okay. So, um, one, you know, maybe in in the same vein of kind of institutional faithfulness, we've been talking about, um, you know, measures that the that the denomination has taken to secure its faithfulness and in, uh, you know,
Speaker A
electing personnel, appointing personnel, um, clarifying its doctrinal stands. I'm curious, you know, you've now been uh, the president of Southern Seminary for um, what, 30 some odd years now?
Speaker A
Four basically. 34 years. Yeah. So, um, you know, how how have you thought about um, you know, kind of your last chapter? Um, no offense, but you're getting up there. I assume that you're you have to be thinking about these sort of questions.
Speaker A
Um, as you think about your last He's checking [laughter] his Al. Are you okay?
Speaker A
I'm fine. That's good. Um, but but I assume, you know, you have to be thinking about this because you have you've been through the battles.
Speaker A
You've recovered a a major seminary, the biggest the largest Southern Baptist seminary. uh recovered it and as you said have had seen great fruit and success in not only um growing the numbers but growing the numbers while while making the you know drawing
Speaker A
students who are more biblically uh faithful uh conservative want to preserve the faith um all of that's great and then you know the book of Ecclesiastes would tell you and then and then the next guy could squander it. So,
Speaker A
what are the what are some of the things that you how do you have you thought about those transitions as um as someone who's had a great run um in terms of preserving it um doing what you can now
Speaker A
to preserve it for the next 50 years, for the next hundred years? Yeah. No, that's a very legitimate question and I I think as you look at the Christian world institutionally, uh the issue you raised is vital. So, one
Speaker A
of the things I've tried to do from the very beginning is to articulate things as loudly and widely as possible. I I in other words, I'm trying to be so clear and so loud, I'll just admit it. Yes.
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Loud about things that the institutional messaging is going to be very difficult to change. And and then I've worked hard at building a faculty committed to those same truths and worked hard at at helping a board to be committed. And
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then like what I'm doing right now with this amendment is trying to help the whole Southern Baptist Convention to understand what's at stake. So, you know, I I I I can't replace myself.
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And so, I I've been praying uh with urgency and greater urgency as I get older. You know, the praying that uh that there will be great continuity uh uh in terms of the convictions and the leadership. I'm actually I'm actually
Speaker A
very happy about the confidence I have just just in earthly terms that I I didn't know I would have. One is with the faculty.
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Uh I'm really really confident that this faculty is going to press for someone to continue this direction and these convictions and and continuity. Uh I think in many institutions like Princeton, you look at its history, that's where it was lost. And uh and so
Speaker A
I I'm I'm very happy about that. You know, I also tell people, you know, there's a there's a a certain sense of common grace in pointing to math.
Speaker A
Okay, so these convictions have drawn this many students. You're going to mess that up, you know, and so it's a pragmatic argument to be sure, but you know, institutions sometimes need a good kick from a pragmatic argument.
Speaker A
Uh the other thing is if the Lord allows, I intend to haunt the institution to make [laughter] sure it doesn't it doesn't. No, I want to be I want to help in every way I can in a continuing
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influence and uh but but I I'm I'm looking for continuity and and look, I I I will tell you I'm a finite human being. I'm very aware of it. I can look in the camera like you can. I can see
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look in the mirror and see u there comes a time when there needs to be a new president and and he will come with a different skill set and a different approach, you know, stylistically and other things. What I'm looking for is
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the absolute continuity of mission and conviction of of confession and and passion. Well, one of the things I I hear in kind of what we've been talking about is um on the one hand um part of your efforts
Speaker A
in in securing the denomination from say moderate to liberal drift is is so you got the faculty on one on the one hand that guards things, but you also have these churches. And so you you really do have to preserve the the denomination as
Speaker A
a whole because like you said, you need them to elect conservative convictional presidents to appoint conservative convictional trustees so that your institution can be preserved. So there's a kind of you can't just focus put your head down and focus on your own um on
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your own thing. You have to actually take ownership over over everything. And the other thing that I that I heard in there that I thought was interesting and something that we we talk a lot about how um how we operate is that that issue
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of clarity publicly that acts as a kind of sifting mechanism. like I I would assume that that the uh the institution that you attended um had probably got muddled in terms of who it just trying to draw students from
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all over and we're going to kind of downplay certain things and so that you end up with a faculty that drifts from uh you know the statement of faith and and starts to go liberal and so you might have some conservative students
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still but you've it's a mixed student body whereas the minute that you you know sound the trumpet and are clear about things all of a sudden those those people don't come anymore. you clear them out. Um, exactly. We've we've
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talked uh, you know, before about some of the advertising that we put out at New St. Andrews, um, and how it's basically air cover and it's designed as a sifting mechanism to keep certain students from ever applying. There's
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people we do not want here, don't have any interest in attracting um, and and that's a key mechanism and it sounds like you've kind of adopted a similar mindset uh, in terms of how you you speak clearly in order to sift on the
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front end. Yeah, I think you guys are are uh are are just superb at doing that. I mean, you even have your own publishing house and all the rest. I mean, you you're you're exch No one should arrive,
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you know, there on your campus or in your church or any affiliated part and go, well, I'm surprised where these men stand. You know, that [laughter] should be impossible. And [clears throat] u that's exactly what we're trying to
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do. You know, I I I can just tell you that uh that decades of messaging in this way means that I I I honestly I I haven't had a student show up virtually ever saying, "Wow, you guys are really
Speaker A
conservative." That happened. They're they're they've come because of this. And uh and by the way, that that is, I think, a part of the great divergence that's taking place. And and so I think that explains a lot of what's going on in the wild
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wild world of whatever evangelicalism is. So I I think there's a disappearing middle because there's no there is no middle.
Speaker A
You're going to be either, you know, over here or or over there, right? I wanted to go back for a minute to um the question of transition. Uh walk us through how you became the president. So who who was it that tapped
Speaker A
you to take this role? because the next transition would would work the same way procedurally right?
Speaker A
Um, procedurally, yeah. Uh, the context will be very different, right? But is it the president of the SBC who approached you or was it another how how did that happen?
Speaker A
Yeah. So, the convention elects a board of trustees, the board elects a chairman and that that chairman really fulfills that role. Okay. And uh and and the board is a governing board. So has has the legal controls the board of
Speaker A
governance traditionally set up. Uh they elected a search committee and uh and it was a moment of institutional crisis.
Speaker A
It's because and you know the math the math works against you until it works for you or it works for you until it works against you. So for the liberals it worked for them for a long time until
Speaker A
it worked against them. And so Southern's conservative trustees went from a minority to a bylaw bylawchanging majority in six months.
Speaker A
Okay. So they had to wait almost a decade to have a majority. But when they had a majority, all of a sudden they had a bylaw changing majority. I mean it so they they went from being a minority to
Speaker A
being a twothirds majority. So that forced the transition, right? And they had to find a president. That's in 1992. uh was uh chosen in February of 1993. So it's very short. Part of it is just to be honest, there wasn't a
Speaker A
bullpin. Southern Baptist didn't say, "Oh, we have some seminary president candidates over here." Uh I mean, honestly, uh the conservatives uh needed needed they had to find someone to elect. I was editor of the Christian index. I had been assistant to the
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president here and uh and until that became untenable. uh but a lot of the trustees knew me and uh they knew of my convictions and you know I put myself on the line I you know uh as in terms of
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writing I was elected editor of the Christian index and that's back this is pre- internet so that's one of the biggest platforms in the SBC I was only 29 years old and I just tried it again loud I tried to articulate all these
Speaker A
things and u and the conservative leadership of the SBC uh appreciated it and uh so they're the ones who put me in place it was To be honest, there's a search committee. Yes, it had a job.
Speaker A
Yes. But the the especially the former conservative presidents of the SPC and the current president had a lot to do uh with with them getting to me with the formation of the trustees. They they had to do with the formation of the
Speaker A
trustees who picked you. Well, they also proposed me directly, okay, to the committee and and to the board.
Speaker A
So, I think you guys will know the name Adrien Rogers. Yeah. who was the titanic conservative figure, the first conservative president uh in terms of the conservative resurgence. Uh Dr. Rogers uh very kindly uh uh nominated me and encouraged the
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board in that direction. So I have to tell you that was that was that was massive. It's kind of like the you know Yeah.
Speaker A
man offering a a nomination. It it meant a lot. Well, and then and you mentioned the the context in which you were proposed, which was one of kind of embattlement, and this was a, you know, multi-year um take back our denomination sort of
Speaker A
move, as Doug mentioned, it was the one time that a major denomination maybe outside the Lutheran um were able to reclaim from liberalism. Um and so you're coming in in an embattlement and basically stuck on the front lines of
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the big seminary and said, you know, fix it. Uh and you the changing context then would be something like uh the fruit of that you know 35 year faithfulness is that you probably do have a bullpin now um from which from which those those
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trustees whenever the time comes they they'll have plenty of um conservative solid convictional bold uh you know academics.
Speaker A
Can I say that I I'm very thankful for what's taken place in the last few years and that there's been a sifting on some issues. So, I think we all know there's been some sifting and there's some people who were Southern Baptists who
Speaker A
now aren't and and and all the rest. Some of these issues have have have been hammered out. I think the the convention's ended up in a very healthy place, but uh I I do think that means that bullpen is very strong.
Speaker A
Yeah. Very good. Well, um that's probably a good place to to call it. Um Dr. Muller, thank you so much for for joining us. We look forward to seeing you in August uh when you come out here for grace agenda and we'll be able to
Speaker A
talk about um Christianity and the nations and how we should do that. Um and very grateful for your efforts. does um you know I I do think it impacts uh us uh as um every you know um we need
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evangelical churches across the spectrum every denomination uh maintaining biblical fidelity with we can argue about our baptism uh have our baptismal debates and other other debates um but uh on the major issues I'm ready anytime anytime that's right that's right but uh
Speaker A
but on the big things uh we can maintain our biblical fidelity and and link arms together so thank you so much for joining us and we're very grateful thank you no uh brothers I'm very glad to have been with you and I I want to thank you
Speaker A
in advance for taking the lead in this book project and other things and you guys uh have uh have been a lot of fun to work with and I'm looking forward to that conversation coming up uh in just a
Speaker A
matter of weeks and pray the Lord will use it. Amen. All right, this has been Doug Wilson and Friends and we will see you probably in July and then uh as always um July well you know we have we have more of
Speaker A
these. Oh, this show. This show, you know, you will see you in July on here and then August at Grace.
Speaker A
I thought I thought you moved Grace agenda. I did. [laughter] I just changed it. No.
Speaker A
Uh, we'll see you in July and Doug Wilson and Friends and we'll see you in August at Grace Agenda. Right.
Topics:Christian nationalismAlbert MohlerDoug WilsonSouthern Baptist ConventionBaptist theologyPresbyterian theologychurch and statepublic theologyCanon Presspostmillennialism
