Speaker A
It's so good to see you again, Kristen. Yes, it's nice to see you as well.
Explore the sober curious movement and how to reevaluate your relationship with alcohol for better mental and physical wellness.
Key Takeaways
- Sober curiosity is about mindful reevaluation of alcohol use, not necessarily complete abstinence.
- Alcohol can negatively impact mental health and sleep quality, contrary to common beliefs.
- Increased wellness awareness is prompting a cultural shift in how society views alcohol consumption.
- Recognizing early physical and mental symptoms can guide healthier choices around drinking.
- Long-term sobriety journeys often begin with questioning the true effects of alcohol on one's life.
Summary
- The term 'sober curious' refers to people reevaluating their relationship with alcohol, often reducing intake or abstaining temporarily.
- Kristen shares her 11-year sobriety journey, highlighting early questioning about alcohol's role in her life and its impact on her well-being.
- The conversation reflects a societal shift toward recognizing alcohol as a potentially harmful substance rather than a harmless social norm.
- There is growing awareness of alcohol's negative effects on mental health, including exacerbating anxiety and depression symptoms.
- Health and wellness trends, including mental health awareness and fitness, are driving more people to reconsider their alcohol consumption.
- Alcohol is a toxin and diuretic that causes dehydration, leading to symptoms like headaches, nausea, and mental fog.
- Alcohol disrupts sleep quality by depressing the central nervous system temporarily, resulting in less restorative sleep despite feeling sleepy.
- The podcast encourages listeners to pay attention to how alcohol affects their daily functioning, relationships, and overall health.
- The movement toward sober curiosity is compared to the cultural shift around cigarettes, hoping for a lasting change in alcohol perception.
- Early signs to explore your relationship with alcohol include frequent bathroom trips, poor sleep, dehydration symptoms, and mental fog.
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
Yeah, thank you so much for coming back to chat with me. So, I have been seeing a term that has been used online and maybe even in client circles. I'm guessing maybe you have seen this in your practice as well, sober curious.
Speaker A
Which feels like a newer, a newer term. So, what is that? What do you think people are referring to when they talk about being sober curious?
Speaker A
Yes, I do think that sober curious is a new term, a movement, I guess you could call it, of people who are basically reevaluating their relationship with alcohol. Like maybe they don't feel like their habits are to
Speaker A
the extreme, but they're still wanting to just take a more curious look at how it's showing up in their life. And so, taking the steps to reduce their intake or to abstain for a period of time just to understand more about how it shows up
Speaker A
for them. Mhm. And when you've been on the podcast previously, you've talked about your sobriety journey, right? So, it has been probably 10 years plus since you have been sober. Can you talk about what was going on in your life then when
Speaker A
you started to think like, "I need to reevaluate my own relationship with alcohol?" Yes, yes. So, I'm 11 years, 11 years and some change. So, we are grateful for that journey every day.
Speaker A
I have a different, and maybe we'll talk about this some today, too. You know, I had a different experience of coming to realize my relationship with alcohol.
Speaker A
But I do think that there were some moments in time early, early on, maybe before it actually became a problem for me, that I was, I don't know if curious is the word, but questioning for sure, you know, kind of
Speaker A
how I was using it. You know, what were the triggers, I guess you could say, that would lead me to drinking more or drinking less or the environment, that sort of thing. Things that I just started to notice. And so, I
Speaker A
think for me that journey has really just been about my journey early on was really just about coming to terms with, you know, is this still fun? You know, I think we start to, you know, have more of a party lifestyle and do things in a
Speaker A
more social way. And I think that through my sober curious portion of my journey, I realized that I was functioning or using it in a way trying to get back to something that had already long passed, which was the
Speaker A
fun and the light-hearted vibrant part of just living life and maybe having a few drinks. It started to take a turn for me. And I think that's where I start to explore, you know, how much am I actually drinking? And is this actually
Speaker A
fun? Am I just keeping it to social settings or do I find that I'm drinking more in isolation? And how do I feel when I wake up the next morning? Am I able to function for my next day or is
Speaker A
this really, you know, impacting the way I'm able to show up in my career, my relationships, and that sort of thing?
Speaker A
And so, that questioning began my own journey to realizing that it was time to take a long break from it for myself.
Speaker A
Yeah, and I think what you're talking about and even the fact that there is this conversation around sober curiosity, right? Like speaks to this shift in our relationship to alcohol and just kind of societally what we
Speaker A
think about alcohol. You know, I think historically it has felt like it was pretty harmless, you know, it's something that everybody does. Like it's okay to have a few drinks. And it feels like we are now looking at it much more
Speaker A
seriously as, you know, a substance that can be harmful, you know, depending on the quantities. Can you talk a little bit about where we find ourselves in the movement towards people really reevaluating their relationship to this substance?
Speaker A
I think that health trends, I hope that this one's here to stay.
Speaker A
And I hope I feel like similar to how cigarettes have kind of shifted for good, you know, as far as how cigarettes used to be a thing, you know, [laughter] like a fun social advertised marketed thing, you know, for a long time. And
Speaker A
then recently, you know, within recent years, you know, the advertisement and the culture around it has changed. But so, I hope that something similar is happening with alcohol to really kind of see the genuine impact of it as being a
Speaker A
substance, as being a toxin for the body and maybe some of the negative impacts that we experience such as hangovers and headaches and that sort of thing is from the impact of that. I hope that it is here to stay, but I also
Speaker A
know that we are also experiencing an uptick in people being aware of their mental health, people pursuing fitness in a balanced way, people pursuing longevity in their health. And so, I think those two components are coming together to have people realizing,
Speaker A
particularly the mental health awareness, because I don't think we've always, you know, if anything, maybe alcohol has been seen as a way to escape your problems and to feel better. But now we're starting to realize that, hey,
Speaker A
that actually makes anxiety worse. That actually exacerbates my depression symptoms. And so, maybe I don't necessarily need to just automatically, you know, buy into the social culture of it. And so, collectively, I think we're starting to, you know, look at longevity and look a
Speaker A
little deeper underneath the surface as far as wellness is concerned. And so, alcohol being so prominent, it makes perfect sense that it would be the first thing that we would start to look at and be like, "And why are we doing this so
Speaker A
much, you know, on our weekends and in our social lives?" Mhm. It's interesting that you pointed to wellness because I hadn't necessarily, I mean, I definitely know, of course, the mental and physical health impact. But you're right, like the larger conversations
Speaker A
around wellness I think are shining a light on what we are doing with substances. Can you talk about maybe some of those early symptoms like, you know, sleep or the physical impact that alcohol can have? Like some of those
Speaker A
very early symptoms that might be a sign that you want to explore your relationship to substances.
Speaker A
Yeah, I think anything. So, what we know about alcohol is that it has, it's a diuretic. And so, it's also a toxin to the body. And so, when we ingest alcohol, our body, although we get a buzz or, you know, whatever feel-good
Speaker A
feelings we have, our body is trying to get rid of it as soon as possible. And so, a lot of times people will notice, "As soon as I start drinking, I can't stay out of the bathroom. I'm going to
Speaker A
the bathroom over and over again." It's like it's actually your body trying to flush what you've put in it out. And that typically for most people, if you're not careful with your water and your electrolytes while you're drinking,
Speaker A
can lead to dehydration. So, a lot of the symptoms that people notice are symptoms of dehydration, headaches, mental fog, dry mouth, you know, different things like that. Nausea, vomiting even, you know, can still be, you know, related to that. And when
Speaker A
it comes to sleep, sometimes people think that alcohol is actually helping them to sleep. And although you are not awake anymore, it's not necessarily the healthiest version of sleep. And so, it does depress your central nervous
Speaker A
system, but that's only temporary. That's not REM sleep, a healthy, you know, sleep state. It's more of a coming into and out of consciousness. And so, for a lot of people they feel like, "Oh, a glass of wine or something at night is
Speaker A
really, it really helps me to go to sleep." But then I don't know the exact numbers with studies, but studies will show that that sleep is not exactly as restful as it would have been had they gotten the same amount, sober. And
Speaker A
so, I think there's a lot of misconceptions around that that people are starting to realize when you again pay attention, you know, when there's an increase in conversation around it, there's an awareness.
Speaker A
actually sleeping? Do I actually feel rested in the morning? I know I went to sleep, but do I wake up rested?" Is actually the question, you know? And so, um, I think, you know, for me young in my
Speaker A
younger days, you know, hangovers were just a part of the norm. But now it's like, "But do I want to be hung over every every Saturday morning?" Or do I want to have a different experience? And so, I think a lot of people are noticing
Speaker A
that for themselves and deciding to make make a shift. Yeah, you mentioned the the kind of misconception. And I think another misconception around like alcohol and sobriety is that you have to hit rock bottom before you start to like
Speaker A
seriously look at your relationship to alcohol. Can you address that and talk about why that may be a misconception?
Speaker A
Yes, so that is a common misconception rooted in like the extremes of addiction and how it's been depicted, I think, to us. And really maybe, you know, because we haven't had conversations about what I like to call gray area drinking, we
Speaker A
usually don't come to understand an addiction until we can visibly see it in someone's life, whether it be their health, you know, they're losing their job, losing their family. Then we could observe, "Oh, that addiction has caused them those issues, right?" And so, that
Speaker A
really leaves out a whole pool of people who are also consuming alcohol at varying levels, but they just haven't hit that typical stereotypical, you know, maybe homeless, you know, isolated individuals lifestyle to really to really recognize it. And so, when it
Speaker A
comes to um, the gift we have, I guess, now with having more conversations around our relationship with alcohol is that we really can stop ourselves sooner, you know, whether it be because you have no physical dependence, it hasn't
Speaker A
necessarily caused a lot of intense consequences, or if you find yourself on the other side of the spectrum where you're just not really sure why you're engaging with it, we actually have the opportunity to not wait until it's that
Speaker A
bad to actually start exploring it and and pulling ourselves back. I would consider myself to be one of those people in that I got sober at 26, which was kind of like unheard of at the time.
Speaker A
Like, "But you're so young. You could just, you know, you don't want to just try and see if you can, you know, manage it or whatever." And I just decided, you know, this is probably the best the best
Speaker A
chance I'm going to have to address this and to live a full vibrant life is right now. And so, I also um think that there were a lot more consequences that I could have and probably would have experienced had I kept drinking, but
Speaker A
because of a healthy support system and knowing a little bit about addiction already, I was able to kind of gather that together to take care of it sooner than later. Mhm. Kirsten, you mentioned the the term gray area drinking. And,
Speaker A
you know, I feel like we've talked a little bit about like how alcohol has been kind of socially acceptable and it's okay to kind of have a couple of drinks with friends or happy hours, right? Like it it really is like very
Speaker A
um like it it has become a thing in so many of our lives, very pervasive without I think us even paying attention. And it feels like there is a lot that has happened in pop culture that has also normalized this idea of
Speaker A
having a glass of wine to kind of relax. Like this is what I deserve after a very difficult day, right? So, I think about like Olivia Pope and her classic red wine, right? With the white couch. Um or
Speaker A
even That's my heyday. Yeah, how to get away with murder. Like it it very much has been like a an idea that like this is something that's very normal. What do you think about like the ways that alcohol has been glamorized in some ways
Speaker A
and really connected to like stress relief and how that leads to maybe this gray area drinking? Yeah, it's a challenge. It's a challenge I think in sobriety and as a clinician that works with people who where it gets
Speaker A
complicated and where you can really see how people wrestle with is this normal or is this a problem for me. I um get frustrated with the way alcohol is marketed and you know, just the lifestyle of it. Um I can't help but see
Speaker A
commercials during the Super Bowl or there's a commercial with a beer right now that was um is kind of alluding to a guy having a bed better chance dating a girl if he brings drinks over to her.
Speaker A
And anyway, you can just read into the underlying messages in a lot of the marketing that we're fed. And so, sometimes I don't even think we're actually choosing to participate in the lifestyle. I think we some in a lot of ways have gotten
Speaker A
conditioned by way of commercial here, an event there, you know, um even in the wellness space I've sometimes seen wellness activities paired with drinking, you know, and I think it's a way to try to market and try to get as
Speaker A
many people as possible to see this as fun and inviting and a place to socialize and then in participating in that, that becomes the norm. And so, then maybe we seek them out more than we actually should and center center it in our lives more
Speaker A
than we actually should, but I think we could also talk about how, you know, big alcohol is a um sure billion-dollar company. And so, anything that's going to make money is going to be be pushed on us um
Speaker A
whether the consequences of that are positive or negative for us personally. So, just being aware of those things at play and having those conversations can really help us shift the narrative. You know, I I've been thinking a lot about
Speaker A
like the more we hear about like loneliness and, you know, the epidemic, especially male loneliness, although we know kind of generally people are lonely. And the continuing stress, that's kind of where we find ourselves post-pandemic, you know, just the state
Speaker A
of the world, right? Like I think has led to a lot of stress and people looking at alcohol as a way to relieve that stress. Have you been having conversations or seeing things kind of generally in your circles around like
Speaker A
increased alcohol consumption related to all of these stressors? I have. I have. I think naturally just um for me personally getting sober early, I think my awareness of what that's looked like in conversations has it's kind of given me a clearer lens for
Speaker A
what I'm hearing from, you know, my own personal relationships or with the clients or with the collective. Um I definitely saw an increase in I think when the pandemic came, I think everybody was just in sheer panic emotionally on how to cope with
Speaker A
something like that. And I do remember hearing a a major um seeing a major uptick in associating being able to stay and work from home with drinking and letting loose and coping and kind of rationalizing the use of alcohol because of feeling out of
Speaker A
control, you know, and us not knowing what to expect and looking for, you know, something to help us escape or feel better. I think a lot of times um around those stressors we hear that with mommy wine culture, you know, we
Speaker A
hear that a lot. Um in a lot of different ways it just becomes normalized and when you're struggling, you don't want to always you never actually want to feel judged. And so, I think that we then start to relate over
Speaker A
the misery of it through this coping skill that is ultimately not helping. Um but I see that a lot with mommy culture, you know, like we can bond and we can relate on our similarities here and have this common, you know, coping for the
Speaker A
relief of it and the bonding that it promotes. And so, um it's definitely a slippery slope of, you know, what's normal and what's not normal cuz everyone um doesn't necessarily need to live a sober lifestyle, but anytime you're
Speaker A
associating drinking with those emotional challenges, I think that it's a slippery slope for future issues. Mhm.
Speaker A
So, I'd love to stay there for a second cuz you mentioned even earlier that when you were, you know, considering becoming sober like there were people like, "Oh, you're so young. Is this something that you really want to do?" Um and so, for
Speaker A
people who are thinking like, "Okay, I'm not quite sure like I'm on the sober forever kind of train, but I do want to reevaluate or become more mindful around my my relationship to alcohol. Where should they start? What kinds of
Speaker A
questions should they be asking themselves?" Well, first I recommend getting an understanding of how much you're drinking as is. I think, you know, if you're just kind of living life and assuming that, "Oh, I think I'm drinking too much when I'm not exactly sure." I
Speaker A
say go ahead and get the data. Go ahead and get the data and track your drinking for a month. Track your drinking Some people for a week they might have the information they need. But track your drink drinking to see what patterns you
Speaker A
notice, to see what the frequency is, to see what the amount is. And then from there, you can decide does this seem objectively speaking, does this seem normal? Cuz anybody's going to maybe think that they should reduce their
Speaker A
drinking or have thoughts and feelings about it when they're experiencing a hangover, right? That's going to be emotionally driven, but when you can get that data and that baseline understanding of your pattern, then you can start to look and say, "Is this
Speaker A
normal?" You know, um uh the CDC says it recommends no more than one drink for women, no more than two drinks for men as being what they would call normal. And so, it's like, "Do I abide by that naturally? Is that Am I
Speaker A
even hitting that norm, you know, or below?" And if you find that you're averaging two each time you drink, then you can already know that, "Hey, maybe it's something I need to further consider and ask other questions." I
Speaker A
would also say in this tracking, um you can also understand what tends to coincide with your drinking.
Speaker A
Like is it a stressful week? Have you been going through a breakup? Have you Are you going Are you experiencing grief? So, you might even do like a mood log alongside like when I am choosing to drink, how am I typically feeling? Are
Speaker A
these celebratory moments? Are these isolated moments by myself where I'm dealing with a mental health challenge?
Speaker A
And then from there, you can start to better understand that emotional connection between the two. Mhm. You know, so thinking about like the larger conversation around the wellness space, I think that something else that we have seen is an increase in things that are
Speaker A
like non-alcoholic beverages, right? Or infused in other ways. I see you took a little bit of a deep breath there.
Speaker A
Yeah. Um so, I would love to hear your it. I want to hear these feelings cuz I I feel like I don't quite know enough to know like, "Okay, where do I really stand here?" And so, are you feeling
Speaker A
like these are um kind of helpful substitutes? Are they pretty neutral? Or is this something that you also want to be paying attention to like your relationship to these to these other drinks? Yeah, I think definitely paying attention to. I don't think it's
Speaker A
neutral, you know? And I will I will argue anybody down about that clinically or personally. I don't think, you know, and I think it's important to say that, you know, for most people um that I do think that how we're relating to and I
Speaker A
it's again, it's the substance, it's the association, it's the lifestyle itself, too. You know what I mean? So, we can be addicted to anything. So, it's not about the substance itself all the time, it's about our relationship and our
Speaker A
engagement with it. And so, for me, I think that it's important for everyone to assume that it's not neutral. Maybe it ends up being something that you can take or leave and there's nothing there, but don't go in assuming that it's
Speaker A
harmless when it may actually have other implications for you. And so, I struggle with this question because there's different schools of thought and there's like my personal experience with it, my professional experience with helping people figure it out. And because the
Speaker A
gray area is so gray, it does take time to figure out what side of this you you lie on as far as um if alcohol is um serving you well at all, you know, or if if you should abstain completely. And
Speaker A
so, when it comes to the mocktails and the spirit-free um drinks and that sort of thing, it's important to know that there's kind of a difference in those two drinks. They're not mutually exclusive. So, um mocktails are um
Speaker A
my understanding and how I'd like to share with the audience is mocktails are drinks that have flavor to them, have a different um texture to them like carbonation and that sort of thing. They might have um different teas, different
Speaker A
herbs in them to give them flavor, but they don't necessarily um they may not necessarily have an alcoholic alternative in them. You know, so you might have cranberry, you might have mint, you might have some lemon, you might have a little, you know,
Speaker A
decorative something with some club soda, okay? But there are also other drinks where there's a spirit-free liquor involved. So, whether it be a vodka, a tequila, a gin, there's actually big alcohol companies are creating their own version of
Speaker A
liquors, basically, that have a very, very small percentage of alcohol content. And so, if you look at some of those bottles, you'll see where it might be advertised as alcohol-free, but if you look at the back, you know, where
Speaker A
the nutritional value is, you might see where it says it actually contains .05% alcohol.
Speaker A
And so, those, to me, are more are not necessarily traditional mocktails, like you would think. This is completely alcohol-free. Those drinks still have alcohol in them.
Speaker A
And so, when it comes to deciding whether you are sober curious and just wanting to scale back for health reasons, weight loss reasons, maybe you're studying for something, you just really want to lock in and focus versus if you have more of a problem
Speaker A
drinking, I think that's a big distinction to make as far as these drinks may still have alcohol content in them. And so, is that really abstaining?
Speaker A
Is that really allowing myself to have a dry period? Or is that more of what we might talk about in clinical terms being a harm reduction type of approach rather than an abstinence-based type of approach.
Speaker A
And so, I think it's important for people to be informed about that cuz I think I've even had a friend buy alcohol-free champagne for me one time.
Speaker A
And she was like, "Yeah, I bought this for you. I thought it was great. It was super cute. You can do that and we'll have our regular champagne." And I flipped over to the nutritional facts on the back and I was like,
Speaker A
"Actually, this actually still has alcohol." And she said, "Oh my gosh, I didn't even realize that that was a thing." And so, I think it's good to be informed on that to know what's best for you, you know,
Speaker A
so Yeah. So, I'm I'm curious, Kristen, there it feels like there also like these class of drinks that are made with maybe different kinds of like herbs or like plants or like maybe some of them are like THC-infused.
Speaker A
Would you say that and I have not looked enough to know even like what's on the back of those if there is like still some small percentage of alcohol there.
Speaker A
Is that in the same class or is that like a separate class of like in between mocktails and you know, 0.5% spirit something? Dr. Joy, I don't know.
Speaker A
It's a lot It's a lot. That's what happens when you have trends is that it's like it [laughter] [gasps] it starts in one way and then, you know, everyone puts their spin on it and then it becomes something else. And so, for
Speaker A
me, I I go back to keeping it simple, you know. If you're wanting to take a break from alcohol, gosh, there's so many things to get into with this, but the the idea of how alcohol shows up, it's physical and it's emotional. And
Speaker A
so, it's not just about removing the alcohol physically, it's about not using substances to to manage your emotions and dealing with life, you know what I mean? So, in my opinion and what I would probably recommend for anybody,
Speaker A
especially on the front end, give yourself a chance to really experience what abstinence feels like. And then, down the road, if you decide that you want to, you know, experiment with something else, you can do that from an
Speaker A
informed place on what sobriety actually feels like for you. And then, as opposed to doing it the other way and then you don't know whether you don't crave alcohol anymore because you're drinking this drink with THC in it or because you
Speaker A
actually, you know, can kind of muddy the water when it makes things more complicated. So, um getting to my point of, you know, we have to understand that part of this work is about being able to sit with
Speaker A
your emotions and manage your mental health in a different way and doing that substance-free, doing that alcohol-free. So, to replace the alcohol with another, you know, type of substance that's mood-altering could potentially be getting in the way of your original intent. And so, I think
Speaker A
that's a conversation to have and a realization to come to for yourself, like, why am I struggling to just have a sober experience? Why do I feel like a little of this and a little of that and a small percentage of that is
Speaker A
necessary for me to actually do this. I think that could lead to a whole 'nother, you know, category of questions around your relationship overall. Mhm. Yeah, you mentioned, you know, like that anything really could become addictive, right?
Speaker A
And so, I think that that is something to pay attention to if this is something you struggle with, right? Like this idea that, you know, you might not even be replacing your alcohol behavior with another substance, but are you not
Speaker A
replacing it with shopping or online, you know, scrolling or right? Can you talk about like the need to kind of pay attention to everything that might be happening where you might [snorts] just be substituting one addiction or addictive behavior for another? Yeah.
Speaker A
Yeah, I think that first and foremost with my clients, I try to tell them that, you know, you're human. You're a human being, you know, dealing with getting sitting with your emotions all at one time when you've been used to
Speaker A
coping in a certain way is going to be hard. So, give yourself grace, you know, give yourself grace with this. A lot of time when people are taking a break from alcohol, they might notice that their sugar cravings go up because alcohol is
Speaker A
a sugar when it's broken down in the body. It's kind of it has the same function in some ways in the body. And so, once you reduce that habit, you might find that, "Hmm, I'm craving something sweet more than I used to."
Speaker A
You know, and so, you may notice that and may need to be mindful of that as well. But, give yourself grace and time to figure out what that is and to not be too, too hard on yourself. But, I think
Speaker A
ultimately, the concept and the the mindset that you have to wrap your head around is that I'm doing this in order to live life on life's terms more and to experience what it's like to deal with my emotions, to deal with my life, to
Speaker A
practice new skills, you know, in a way that alcohol wasn't really allowing me to do. And so, when I remove the alcohol, it's not about replacing it with another compulsive feel-good dopamine kick, but also maybe building out some other skills, some other
Speaker A
hobbies, some other outlets, some other supports so that you don't fall into the trap of overly consuming social media or overly consuming television or overly consuming anything because again, that's still the lifestyle of chasing something to feel better other rather than just
Speaker A
sitting in your experience. Mhm. You know, cuz and I'm really curious to hear how this might look in like the therapist's office because, you know, we know clients come in with like their checklist of things that like brings
Speaker A
them to to therapy, right? Like maybe it's communication, maybe it's stress management, whatever. Um but, if you are working with a client and you recognize like, "Huh, there's something going on here, I feel like as the clinician around alcohol, right?" But, that is not
Speaker A
an expressed concern for them. Mhm. How might or would you introduce that as something to pay attention to with a client if that's not something they bring in as a concern for them? Is there a way to do that that doesn't feel like
Speaker A
judgy? Yeah, I do. I do. I think for me, I kind of get a different I get a different experience of that because I am public with my sobriety.
Speaker A
So, a lot of my clients are aware that I'm sober and so, they sometimes feel more inclined to have those conversations or even seek me out because they know that I have that background. So, it does make having that authority and kind of gently
Speaker A
mentioning it a little bit easier because, you know, because of that commonality or that understanding already. But, you know, I try to work to question, you know, we're not going to scapegoat anybody's use over anything else, but start to do some motivational
Speaker A
interviewing and some questioning just like I would do anything that seems to be a problem. Maybe helping them to see a pattern, you know, in in something.
Speaker A
And it may take a while, you know, like I say, in my personal and professional spaces, I have experienced having to wait for someone to come to their own understanding of that, you know what I mean? And that may take months, that may
Speaker A
take years, you know. But, what I'll do in the therapy room is try to help them figure out what's the pattern here, you know? Okay, this happens.
Speaker A
Okay, now tell me more about once the stressor, you know, trigger or something hits, and if it's not alcohol, some a lot of times it's food that I help my clients with, too. And they'll say, "Well, and then that's when I end up,
Speaker A
you know, drinking to feel better." And I'll say, "Okay, well, how long do you feel better for?" And then they'll say, "Oh, you know, a couple of hours and then I end up going to sleep and I wake up the next day."
Speaker A
And I was like, "How do And how do you typically" I just ask more questions out of curiosity about how that substance or whatever that behavior is, just like we would with any other behavior, to um to help bring it more gradually into
Speaker A
the conversation. And through that, they may come to a realization, like, "I notice that every time we do this, maybe I might even ask, you know, "Are you noticing any consistencies between these three different events that we've discussed over the last couple of
Speaker A
sessions?" And they may and I may give them a chance to mention. And then I'll say, "May if it's all right, can I share with you what I'm seeing?" And then I might find a way to kind of
Speaker A
say, "I'm noticing that typically alcohol is involved in these in these situations that you're having. Have you noticed that? Have you thought about that?" And that usually leads to a larger conversation. And a lot of times, clients are
Speaker A
already consider, you know, exploring it. And so, it can sometimes be helpful to go ahead and lead them in that direction and break the ice. Something you've mentioned a couple of times is that a lot of this work is around like sitting
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with your emotions, right? Like that we are often turning to alcohol or some other substance or activity because we're running from something or not wanting to sit with something. What does that actually look like? Like what are you What kinds of skills are you sharing
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or teaching clients around how to actually sit with whatever this discomfort is so that they are not turning to alcohol?
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Yeah, I What I typically start with is trying to help my clients to name how they're feeling. A lot of times we'll have like a physical sensation of disappointment or missing someone or grief or anger, depression, but we're
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not quite able to give it language. And so, I walk them through the naming of using the feelings wheel, you know, the good old feelings wheel to help them connect with how they're feeling physically with um with an emotion, you
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know? And once they get in the habit of being able to recognize it, "When I feel this in my chest and when I feel this ache over my right shoulder, you know, whatever their indicators are, that usually lets me know that I'm frustrated
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about something that I need to." And then, once they understand those that's aspect, we go into their skills of and what usually helps me in that moment. We practice deep breathing. I go for a walk. I journal. I call my friend. I sit
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and I let myself cry. I know that when I feel that way, I need to release and let myself be sad, you know? I find that a lot of my clients have a hard time even in session just letting themselves
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sob and just really emotionally release. And then, once they do that, the the challenges they're having around something, it doesn't take the issue away, but it just allows them to kind of come back up to a more manageable place
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where they can navigate it. And so, if you are feeling some sort of way in your body um because of a stressful workday or an argument and then you reach for alcohol, which is suppressing all of that, you
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never really get to learn what that emotion feels like and what it looks like to work through it in another way. Um but, often times it's just uh letting yourself self cry. A lot of times my clients have not really allowed
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themselves to naturally like maybe they sobbed after a few drinks, but it hasn't been like a natural, you know, emoting situation where they've allowed themselves to grieve something or to be sad about something. And so, sometimes it can simply be practicing that in
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session. We're not going to do anything else, but just let you let your tears fall, you know, and see how you feel in about 10 minutes. And I'll hold space with them 5-10 minutes and just let them let them feel what they need to and then
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we we debrief it afterwards. When you were talking earlier, Kristen, you mentioned that, you know, at some point in the work you might move to a more harm reduction kind of um strategy as opposed to like complete sobriety, which
Speaker A
it feels like maybe this sober curious um kind of language falls within. Can you talk more about harm reduction and like when you might have that kind of conversation with a client?
Speaker A
Yeah, harm reduction um for those who don't know, harm reduction is a clinical term that we use um pri- not primarily, not only in treatment centers, but primarily in treatment centers or as a as a um alternative for um helping with
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the high-risk behaviors that are around addiction. And so, for example, if we're talking about someone with a drug problem that is using fentanyl or heroin or something, they might be a harm reduction practice might be to give them um
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it's it's controversial, but to give them clean needles instead of them using ones that could maybe spread disease and and that sort of thing. Um and so, in the concept of um exploring your relationship with alcohol, if you've been drinking four
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drinks when you go out with friends, this harm reduction approach could be about reducing that to two and then supplementing the other ones with a mocktail so that you can still have, you know, whatever social lubricant you need
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as far as having a drink and not feeling pressured to explain where you are in your journey and, you know, go too far into it, which sometimes can happen in social settings, um but you're also reducing the harm that's causing to you
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to have four drinks in one sitting. You know, um and that could tie into now you're not driving home if you've been driving, you know, you can more so make healthier decisions around how you handle your relationship with alcohol
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just by kind of supplementing. But, I will say that, you know, harm reduction um isn't a fix-all for everybody, you know?
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And so, sometimes we can justify um or prolonged abstinence entertaining a harm reduction, you know, or just management, moderation type of approach when really it's time to abstain. And you you know, um take ourselves out of straddling the fence on
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our use overall. Mhm. What's that line for you, Kristen, maybe as a clinician and maybe even, you know, kind of personally, if you think back to where somebody is moving beyond just being mindful of their relationships to relationship to alcohol versus like this
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is now something more serious where we have to maybe get in treatment in inpatient involved or like a higher level of care? Like what's that line?
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Mhm. Mhm. Um I think that, you know, when I think about the sober curious lifestyle, I think of it as being something light and fun and something to explore, you know what I mean? And something that I'm not
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saying that it won't be hard, but there's an element of ease that's supposed to come. You're supposed to be feeling better, doing better, moving better, you know, all these different things. And so, if you find that you're really struggling with
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what that means for you to be sober for a period of time and you're not experiencing joy and you're not ha- you know um maybe even if you are experiencing some of the positive benefits, if you find emotionally you're not enjoying it, then
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that might speak to your relationship with alcohol a little bit more, like what it's been giving you and what you've been using it for, you know? And so, that could be an indicator. I would also say that sometimes we might carry
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over the same behaviors into the sober curious lifestyle. So, let's say for example, you are exploring sober curious the sober curious lifestyle and you're going to try uh the mocktails, right? Well, if you're still going into the same, you know,
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social environments and you're drinking four mocktails, that might be a sign that there's still, you know, some preoccupation, some association, something that that even that just behavior is giving you that it's not going to be completely, you know, um
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it's not going to go away just because the alcohol isn't present. Meaning that if you add the alcohol back, that same type of relationship is going to continue.
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So, if you're finding it hard to hold to your goal, say you set a goal for 30 days and you find that by day 15, 16, 17, you're like, "Okay, maybe I'll just make it 15." And you're changing the
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goalpost, that could be another sign that the sober curious um journey is it's nothing wrong with it. It's to gain information.
Speaker A
So, it's maybe just assuming that it's telling you something more about how to take it more seriously for yourself, right? And so, um it could be that. It could be if you're doing this two drinks, two normal drinks and then
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mixing in some mocktails. If you find that that number, you start like kind of bartering that number, like say, "Oh, okay, well, maybe I'll just let myself do three this time or maybe four this time." And it keeps moving,
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I think that's another sign that your relationship with alcohol needs more needs more um attention. So, anything that is increasing the tolerance that you have, the amount and the frequency um that you're engaging with either the mocktails or regular drinks during this
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time, I think is something as would be at least a a yellow flag if not a red flag.
Speaker A
Yeah. Mhm. I know the last time that we talked, Kristen, and even today you've talked about like support systems, how important that was for you and, you know, just kind of for anybody who's exploring sober curiosity or being sober
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or abstinent, all of those things. If somebody comes to you, if a friend comes to you and says, "Hey, you know, I'm thinking about be- becoming sober. I'm sober curious. I want to do more exploration around my relationship to
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alcohol." What does it look like to actually be a supportive friend? I think that for for my friends out there that are wanting to be supportive, here's here's what I'll say is that when someone is coming to you to um talk
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about their relationship with alcohol and sharing that information with you, that means that they value your friendship and that they see you as a safe friend.
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And so, the best thing you could do is embody that with your response, right?
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[laughter] Cuz it's hard to come and and share vulnerably about a struggle, you know? So, someone's coming to you, that's already speaking to how they see you and what they need from you, you know? And so, um avoid and stay away
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from judgement and guilting them like, "Really? You're going to stop drinking before our birthday trip? How could you?" Like something like that. You know, keep that. Maybe you need to grieve, you know, some things about what your friend is the changes they're
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making, maybe you need to, but don't put that into that space where they really see you as a safe person. I would say instead of judgement, instead of guilting them around it, um become curious yourself. Like, "Okay, well,
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tell me more about how you came to this this conclusion. What does that look like for you, you know?" And um once you under- have a better understanding of that, you might also try to support them in creating
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opportunities for you all to maintain your friendship that don't surround um that aren't surrounded by alcohol or centered around out alcohol. For example, I had a good friend who had a birthday celebration and she did it through a fitness class instead of a
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brunch with drinks, you know? And so, she's she's currently not drinking. She knows that I'm sober. I was like, "This is perfect. I don't have to worry about, you know what I'm saying? I'm just in my environment. This is a great way to stay
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active, to have fun. We had music. We were moving. Everything else was good. It's just that alcohol was not the center of of that experience. And then, the last thing I would say for friends is just celebrate your friends. If they tell you
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that, "Hey, I'm 10 year- I'm not 10 years, well, 10 years, too. 10 days sober, 30 days sober." If they share a milestone with you, if they share anything that is um moving them towards their goals, um even if you don't quite understand
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everything about it, celebrate them because it's hard it's hard to make that decision when like we said the world around you is promoting the alternative, the other, you know, and so be curious, create spaces for them, and celebrate them. You
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know, one of the unfortunate things it feels like that happens when somebody mentions that they are sober is that there tends to be this like, "Oh my gosh, what a buzzkill." Like, "Oh, I can't believe" like you mentioned like,
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"Oh, you're going to do this before our birthday trip, right?" Why do you think that that um somebody else expressing their, you know, desire to be sober brings up such defensiveness in some people? [laughter] I think because when you're when you're
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drinking, it lowers your inhibitions, you know? You're not thinking with your brain fully online. And so, is it fun?
Speaker A
Yeah, I mean, we don't have to make it seem like it's just all bad. I mean, there are some fun elements to letting loose and letting go and stre- and and and presumably being stress-free for a moment. That's why it catches a lot of
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people up, right? So, we can understand the grief around someone deciding to do differently. Um but I also think that sometimes it can hold up a mirror to things that that person is not there yet with. And so, sometimes it's like they can even be
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supportive and and but say, "Yeah, but not for me." or kind of distance themselves or they might outright say something. And I think that might be something more of a projection of uh realizing that perhaps in a hypothetical scenario
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without my drinking buddy, now who am I going to drink with cuz I'm not ready to do that to to go down that journey just yet, you know? And so, I think it can come out of just being resistant to
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change. And so, by you changing, it's naturally going to change your friendships, you know? And so, some of those friends may struggle with a change that they didn't necessarily opt in to.
Speaker A
And you might be hearing some of that frustration. Is there any language that you can give our community to borrow?
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Maybe you mentioned around um you know, like when you find yourself in situations where maybe you're with people who aren't really close friends or like maybe they're coworkers, and you are wanting to be sober, but you don't want to have to go into your whole life
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story to talk about why you're making this decision. Are there any things that you can offer for people to be able to say in the moment to kind of like set a boundary, but like keep it moving kind
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of thing? Mhm. Mhm. Don't overcomplicate it. I think that when we get into explaining things, that's when we usually trip ourselves up. And so, I um like my therapist taught me this, and I teach my my clients this is that you're informing
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them of a decision. You're not asking for their permission. You're not asking for them to agree or to make you feel better about it. You're informing them.
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Um and so, even just that mindset shift from I'm not explaining to them, "Oh, I'm not drinking because, you know, the headaches and I just couldn't do it anymore." You don't have to give them the whole story. You're just informing
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them, and even that can shorten what you feel like you need to say because I'm not drinking tonight really is all you have to say.
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And even if they ask, "Well, really, why not? Oh, why don't you just have one?" You can still reiterate, "Yeah, I'm just not drinking tonight." Period. But when you go into explaining, I think that's where the burden of it and the heaviness comes
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of just like, "Oh, how am I going to get myself out of this conversation?" So, I would encourage people to go in and say, "I'm going to inform my friends of my decision for tonight, and it's going to
Speaker A
be what it's going to be. It's kind of it's final." You know, as opposed to "Oh gosh, how am I going to explain to them why I'm not drinking and what happened last weekend and how" That's a little bit more again giving them giving
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them more than they really need to know about it. So, I'm not drinking tonight.
Speaker A
Um even if maybe not sharing it with them, but explaining it to the server can be helpful, you know, to have the server not continually come around and ask you. You're letting him know, it lets friends know all at one time, and
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then you can lessen the pressure there. But honestly, if you can really realize that saying, "I'm not drinking tonight" or "today" or "I don't want to drink" is being all you have to say, it really lightens the burden of it in
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social settings. Thank you for that. I think that that will be incredibly helpful for people who have been struggling with that cuz you're right. Like we get into like all of the explaining and like how do I say
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this when it really could just be as simple as, "No, thank you. I'm not interested in that tonight." I'm not interested. Yeah, it's again, it's your confidence around it. It's it's your sureness around it. I think that since people like, "Oh, okay, well,
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she's sure. She's just informing me." You know what I'm [laughter] saying? Right. Right. When you seem a little shaky, then it's just like, "Okay, tell me more. Why did it" You know, and then yeah, yeah. But when you inform them,
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they're like, "Oh, bet. Okay, well, there's that. Moving on." You know? [laughter] Right. Right. For somebody who may be enjoying our conversation and they are newly sober curious, is there one small step they can take this week to kind of go a little further on their
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journey? I would say um if you are drinking still actively drinking, do the tracking. Do the tracking of of how much you're drinking for the next week. And just see how, you know, get an understanding of that. And if you're not actively
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drinking and don't plan on it, give yourself maybe go ahead while you're in this space of being curious and give yourself the gift of sobriety for a period of time. Maybe just commit to something small. Like just commit to the
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week. You know, you don't have to commit to the rest of your life. I know when I got sober, I was not thinking about 11 years from that point at all.
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[laughter] And even at this point, I'm not thinking about year 20. I'm just thinking about 11 years and however many months like staying in the day.
Speaker A
But go ahead. If you're thinking about it, if you're listening to this podcast, if you've been exploring it, that's all you really need to just lean into a little bit more and honor that. And so, if you're still drinking, not ready to
Speaker A
quit or take a break at all, I would say you can just start out by tracking judgment-free.
Speaker A
Or if you're in a place where you're sober listening to this, and you want to give it a go, go ahead and try a week of just full sobriety and mark your mood and kind of journal a little bit about
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what that experience is like. And then from that place of information, you can decide and inform your next steps after that. But start now. Start now with something that you can be consistent with. Kristen, what's one piece of
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advice that you would give your 18-year-old self? Oh wow. Oh, wow, Dr. Joy. [laughter] Wait a minute. Wait a minute. I didn't know this was about to be about me.
Speaker A
[laughter] Just that you I mean, I would gosh, we could have a whole Iyanla, Fix My Life with my 18-year-old self, but [laughter] seriously. But I would just tell her I think that This is a little bit longer than maybe
Speaker A
what you were asking for, but I think I was just so unsure of myself and my skills and my gifts and my strengths, you know? And I thought that I needed more. I thought I needed more courage and more intelligence and more, you
Speaker A
know? And when I think about the role alcohol played in my life even at that age cuz I know we're not supposed to drink till 21, but you know, that's another story.
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Um you know, I was trying to fill in the gaps of insecurity and feeling inadequate, you know? It's like it gave me some wings of maybe feel like I could be in this space and be myself and, you
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know, that sort of thing. But if I could just somehow get to her and say the personality that you have, the quirkiness that you have, the silliness, the awkwardness, whatever, you know, the intelligence that you have is your
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strength, you know? And don't dim it. Don't dim it. Don't be ashamed of it. I think that would have um really helped me along the way. Thank you for offering that. I appreciate that, Kristen.
Speaker A
So, Kristen, remind us where we can stay connected with you. What is your website, any social media channels you are you like to share, and any new offers or new programming that you're offering through your practices? I'm on
Speaker A
Instagram with my name @kristenthempster, TikTok the same, YouTube the same. So, on other platforms, it's uh my personal name. And um right now, I am accepting clients for therapy in North Carolina and South Carolina. I can see individuals and
Speaker A
couples. I help individuals and couples with um topics such as this, how addiction showing up in their life, other habits, other patterns, other cycles, and things that they are trying to work on. Um and so, I can serve
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people in both North Carolina and South Carolina for that. I also have a wellness community called the B3 Crew.
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And everyone in there are women over the age of 35 who are really coming to terms with what wellness looks like for them.
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And so, they are working on being consistent with their fitness journey, and they're working on um improving their mental health through the courses and the resources that I offer within my wellness community. So, if therapy is not quite a fit or if you already have a
Speaker A
therapist, and you just need some more supplemental day-to-day, week-to-week um resources, the B3 Crew community is kind of that supplemental um element to a lot of people's therapy journey.
Speaker A
Um and people in there are sober, sober curious. They are relationship with food. There's a lot of deeper work that's going on. So, you'll find someone that is that looks like you and and can relate to what you're going
Speaker A
through. Perfect. We will be sure to include all of those resources in our show notes.
Speaker A
Thank you so much for spending some more time with us today, Kristen. I really appreciate it. Yes, thank you, Dr. Joy.
Speaker A
Thanks. Of course. [snorts] Yeah.
Topics:sober curiousalcohol relationshipsobriety journeymental healthwellnessalcohol effectssleep disruptiondehydrationtherapy for black girlsalcohol awareness
