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Protection. What is the protection? Kabayeva stayed at this villa. This man loved his spouse.
An in-depth interview with Shalva Chigirinsky on Russian business, corruption, and politics under Putin and Luzhkov.
Key Takeaways
- Russian business in the post-Soviet era involved significant risks, corruption, and political connections.
- Shalva Chigirinsky’s career exemplifies the complex interplay between entrepreneurship and political power in Russia.
- Luxury real estate and elite social networks played a key role in demonstrating status and influence.
- Generational perspectives reveal differing views on responsibility for Russia’s political and economic challenges.
- Online censorship in Russia has led to increased use of VPNs and proxy services for accessing banned platforms.
Summary
- Interview with Shalva Chigirinsky, a prominent Russian businessman and developer with a net worth of $2.5 billion in 2008.
- Discussion of the transition from Soviet-era business practices to the new rules under Vladimir Putin.
- Insights into corruption, protection, and relationships with political figures like Yury Luzhkov and Elena Baturina.
- Details about the purchase and management of a luxury villa formerly owned by a Zaire dictator.
- Exploration of Chigirinsky’s early career involving smuggling and icon restoration during the Soviet Union.
- Reflection on generational failures and the impact of political changes on business in Russia.
- Mention of the challenges of operating in Russia’s business environment, including risks and security measures.
- Context about the political climate, including references to Putin’s rise and oligarch conflicts.
- Promotion of VPN and online security tools due to social media bans in Russia.
- Chigirinsky’s candid views on corruption, power dynamics, and the evolution of Russian capitalism.
Chapters
- 00:00Introduction and Protection in Russian Business
- 04:54Villa Ownership and Luxury Real Estate
- 09:14Early Career and Smuggling Icons
- 14:18Business and Political Connections
- 23:06Corruption and Power Dynamics in Russia
- 29:18Generational Reflections and Political Context
- 35:42Online Security and VPN Promotion
- 39:54Closing Thoughts and Interview Summary
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
How much did you pay for the bills? Can one think of such love? Was Resin corrupt?
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We're coming to power. We're taking over the country. You're a gambler, you've got to take this risk!
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Your relations with Luzhkov and Baturina—was this corruption? I don't deny this. Yury, these were the times.
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I imagine. Can you imagine? I saw it. Dear friends, let me remind you that YouTube and other socials are banned in Russia.
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You should install a VPN service like BlancVPN. I'll leave a link in the description.
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With new restrictions, we need your support more than ever. Please like this video, subscribe to our channel, and leave a comment.
Speaker A
Let's talk about this episode. Thank you and have a nice time. Shalva, you were one of the biggest entrepreneurs in Moscow in the 1990s and 2000s.
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In 2008, Forbes estimated your net worth as 2.5 billion dollars. You witnessed the new rules of the game being introduced.
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First, these were Russian rules after the Soviet Union collapsed, and then these were the Vladimir Putin rules.
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We would like to talk to you about the world of big business and about this period. We have dozens of questions about it.
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We would like to ask you these questions. You hardly ever do any interviews. Before this interview, you told us why you agreed to do it.
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Can you repeat it now on the record? I can. The thing is, since I left Russia in 2009, I spent a lot of time thinking about what happened.
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I watched all these events unfold in Russia. I thought about our successes and failures.
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Three documentaries that ACF released made me think about all these events. The Traitors. Yes, The Traitors. I'm not going to praise or criticize these documentaries.
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Your generation is mad at my generation for messing everything up. What did we do wrong? Who is to blame?
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For you, this is a conversation with another generation. It is. Like Mayakovsky wrote, "I’ll join you in the far communist future."
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His generation failed, and we failed, too. Shalva Chigirinsky, 76 years old, businessman, developer. In the past: ally of Yury Luzhkov, partnered with Elena Baturina. Born in Kutaisi, Côte d'Azur, France. This villa over there used to be yours.
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It's true. It is no longer yours, right? Right. You bought it from a former Zaire dictator.
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I bought it from his family in 2001. How much did it cost you? It cost me about 14.5 million dollars.
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It was worth much more than that, but it wasn't easy to buy. I had to take a certain risk to make it happen.
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What was the risk? I had to pay in advance with no guarantee that I would be able to register the deal.
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I paid them first. I had to trust them. Did you study the background of this dictator?
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Mobutu? Yes. Of course, I did. I met his family. I met his son, who's no longer alive.
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He told me: send me the money and I'll give you a ninety-day option to buy the villa.
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If you pay for all the debts and register the deal, you'll get the villa. It turned out that these problems weren't easy to solve.
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Nevertheless, I managed to do it and got the villa. This dictator lived in luxury.
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People who knew him told me he was a good person. He wasn't bloody. He was just a dictator.
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Just a dictator? Yes. How much time did you spend here? About ten years. I saw an advertising brochure of this villa. There are 15 bedrooms.
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I had 21 bedrooms. I don't know how they counted this. There is also a guest house.
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Yes, 21 bedrooms including the guest house. There are seven bedrooms in it. It's 635 square meters big.
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I used to have eight bedrooms in the guest house. They should have replaced one bedroom.
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They didn't have enough space. Weren't you scared of such a huge house? I didn't feel scared.
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Did you have security? Of course, I did. Such facilities always have security. Have you ever stayed there alone?
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Alone? Staff members were always there. Security. Currently, this mansion is under arrest. It is.
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What is the brochure offering then? Rent? Yes, it is available for rent. I've seen some videos that were shot there.
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Channels like yours or some filmmakers are renting this mansion. So it's available for weekly rent.
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It's available for weekly or monthly rent. Do you know the prices? How much would a weekly rent cost?
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I was told it cost 250 thousand euros per week. 250 thousand euros. Yes. In the summer.
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I've always been curious. How much did you pay for the bills? How much did you pay for water, electricity?
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Taxes. And taxes, too. I paid about 200-250 thousand every month. In the summer when I had guests,
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that would consume more water and electricity. Yes. Heating the pool, saunas, having up to 20 people in the staff,
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and the food. It was expensive. And the helicopters. During winters, it was way cheaper than that.
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Nobody stayed here in winter. Such real estate cost you about two million every year.
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It cost me about 3 or 4 million dollars every year. Euro. Was it worth it?
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It was prestigious. Back then, I could afford it. I would have a lot of guests. Trump has his Mar-a-Lago residence.
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Let's go! Back to the interview. First of all, I would like to go to the very beginning of your career.
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Is it true that you made your capital from smuggling? It's not. It's a long story.
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I didn't work for a single day in the Soviet Union. I was supposed to graduate from a Medical University.
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I quit the university to pursue icon restoration. We would collect the icons in the villages.
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We found them in the destroyed churches. We restored the icons and sold them. Sometimes we would send them abroad.
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Then we would buy some goods abroad and bring them to Russia. To the Soviet Union, I mean.
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This was a profitable business. It was, in fact, smuggling. Yes, it was. But it helped preserve the icons.
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Otherwise, they would be lost forever. This business saved thousands of icons. That would otherwise rot.
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Nobody would ever look for them. And nobody would restore them. They would never be sold to anyone.
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A lot of these icons were returned to Russia after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
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A lot of these icons and Russian art were returned. They are still being returned.
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Would you go to Nizhny Novgorod region or to Ural? We wouldn't go this far. Okay, you would go to a village.
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There is a book by Soloukhin called The Black Boards. Have you read it? I haven't.
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This book explains everything. I went on these trips with him a couple of times.
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He described our trips to Russian villages. We would trade food for icons. Would you trade with locals or with priests?
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All the monasteries were destroyed and turned into warehouses. What would they trade icons for?
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When the communists destroyed the churches, they let the people take the icons. Some of the Russian churches were dated back to the 15th and 16th centuries.
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People preserved the icons. The icons were turning black. We restored the icons at private workshops.
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The icons were brought back to l...
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What would people trade icons for? A bag of potatoes? No..For hop. That would be used in moonshine.
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For ham. For canned meat. There was no food. There was hunger in the villages.
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What years are we talking about now? 1970s. Late 1960s and early 1970s. How much would you sell the icons for?
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The icons were transported by African diplomats. The diplomats would also make some money from it.
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You would make a deal with a diplomat.. Not me. I didn't do it. People that I knew would make a deal with the diplomats. It was a very dangerous thing to do.
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The diplomat were always being watched. Someone would first collect the icons and sell them.
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Then we would restore the icons and sell them to someone else. This person would sell the icons to the diplomats.
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And then the diplomats would sell the icons abroad. Most of the icons were sold in Berlin.
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And Vienna. Sometimes they were sold in Baltic countries, which were closer to Moscow. The icons would be sold for a few thousand dollars.
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And then they would buy watch like Orient watch. Very ugly watch that everyone had..
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It was a sign of wealth. These were the times. How much would you make from such a business?
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It was quite hard to be rich in the Soviet Union. I could go to Sochi or to Yalta.
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I could go to Yurmala. Where else would I go? Did you have a car?
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I had a car. Or two cars. Well, you were definitely wealthier than an average Soviet person.
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Indian Ocean -> Mediterranean Sea When did you move from this dacha? When did you move from this mansion and why?
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In 2009. I accidentally called it a dacha. Why? After I lost my business in Russia..
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You had to sell this mansion. This was one of possible solutions for me. Who did you sell it to?
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I sold it to Gazprom. How much did they pay for it? GazpromNeft paid me around 70 million.
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Seventy? You bought it for 15 and sold for 70. I spent 25 million on reconstruction.
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This mansion was estimated at a much higher price. Was it estimated at 120 million?
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Somebody offered me 500 million. Who? Nazarbayev's people wanted to buy this as a summer residence for him.
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They needed a helipad, two pools, a lot of bedrooms. This is a unique mansion that has everything.
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One of a kind. It is also located close to Monaco. There is a helipad, two big swimming pools, a huge guest house..
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It's a huge chunk of land - 3.5 hectare. There is also a bomb shelter.
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A bomb shelter? Yes. Mabutu had a shelter here. Very prudent. I built a wine cellar there.
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Can it still be used as a shelter? Yes, the dictator had to have one.
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You said that some famous person would stay in this mansion after you sold it.
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I was told this..There were articles about it. Kabayeva would stay here. Alina Kabayeva. Yes. I've never seen her in person.
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I only believe in what I see. My former employee who worked at the mansion told me that Kabayeva stayed there.
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The guards also told me this. Local authorities knew this, too. Does this make you think that this mansion was bought in Putin's purposes?
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This is what the investigation believes. The mansion is under arrest. It is. The official owner of the mansion is Samvel Karapetyan.
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He is the official owner. They are now investigating money laundering, creating a criminal community..
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Karapetyan is being investigated as a fake owner of the mansion. This is what they will have to prove in court.
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For a long time you were friends and partners with Vladimir Solovyov. I didn't work with him..We were in touch.
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What exactly did you have in common? I met him in the early 2000s, after the elections.
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I liked him. He likes history and knows it well. He's educated. He reacts very fast.
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He's a smart man. So we became friends. Did you suggest him to meet you?
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A big businessman and a reporter. Of course, we were both interested in this friendship.
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He had no access to Moscow authorities. I helped him with that. I introduced him to Luzhkov and others.
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He used to work with federal authorities.. They had some issues with Moscow authorities, I can't remember why.
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So I introduced him to Moscow authorities. What was the purpose? He just met them..
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What would he do with it? Nothing. We would often meet and talk to each other.
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He was my guest at my apartment. I enjoyed talking to him. I missed having conversations like we had.
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I used to be friends with Artem Borovik until he die in early 2000. He died on March 9.
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I was really close to him. I wasn't involved in politics but I liked talking to people who were involved in it.
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I found it interesting and Solovyov replaced Artem for me. I've heard that Solovyov would carry out your orders in the media.
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How true is that? Have you heard about any of these? For example.. He testified in court..
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I'll ask you about it later. Has he ever helped you in the media by defending your opinion?
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Never. I never asked Borovik to do it and never asked him. He created a PR-team for me and my company.
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The company was so big that we needed a PR team. For example, Rossiya hotel demolition..
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This was a big event.. Rossiya or Moskva? First Moskva and then Rossiya. We needed a PR advise.
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We needed to talk to the reporters the right way. And Solovyov created a PR team for you.
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He helped us with it. Was he an advisor? He introduced to a person whom I later hired. I can't remember his last name.
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I can find it if you need it. His name was Ilya. Yes. I can't remember his last name.
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Did you pay Solovyov for his help? I didn't. I paid Ilya. Do you think Ilya shared his money with Solovyov?
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I think he did. So you and Solovyov had professional relations. I pretended that we hadn't..
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I fact we did. I can't be sure about it, though. So then there was a court case between you and Roman Abramovich..
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And Solovyov testified in court in England. He testified. Correct me if I'm wrong. He said that this case had to be investigated in England because Russian courts were too corrupt..
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He claimed that Russian courts were corrupt. And later.. He recanted. He told Russian media that he never said this.
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I know. There is a leaked phone call on Youtube. I don't know who leaked it.
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I think that Abramovich leaked it. Do you think so? Of course, I do. Who else would need it?
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This is a 25 minute call of you talking to Ilya. Is this a real call?
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It is. I remember it. You said 'Solovyov is a weak ass, I noticed it a long time ago' Yes.
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Did you feel like he betrayed you? I didn't. I just stated this fact. A lot of reporters are weak asses.
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I don't mean you. I find such characteristics kind of funny but this is what you said.
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What would you say about his ass today? He's a different person now. I haven't seen him in a while.
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For about 16 years. I feel like he knows what he's doing. At some point he made a decision to join a certain team.
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A team of people with a certain attitude towards money. I don't think that his views could change so much.
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I can't think of such a change. He knows it too well. He is trying to solve his financial problems by doing what he does.
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And then - he hopes to change the team once again. When did you stopped being in touch?
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When I left Russia I stopped being in touch with many people. Did you talk to him after he recanted his testimony?
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I met him once. What could I say? How did he explain this to you?
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He got scared. I didn't ask him about it. This question was not needed. I know he got scared.
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Was there a reason to be scared? Definitely yes. So he got scared. Can you understand this?
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I don't approve it. But he didn't have to be a hero. He could have sacrificed himself.
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We didn't know how close Abramovich was to Putin. Back then it wasn't so obvious that they were close.
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When you worked with Ilya Levitov did you realize that Vladimir Solovyov, one of the most powerful reporters, would ever harm you?
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I think that we were just friends. He would stay at my villa. He would stay at my apartment.
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This villa right here? Yes. We were quite close. He's good at history. He's a very educated person.
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He's very different now from the person he once was. I liked his TV shows a lot back then.
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He was quite progressive. I'd even call him a liberal. He was a different person.
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Absolutely. With different views, different morals..different plans, different desires. He was a very interesting and energetic man.
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I enjoyed talking to him. Especially after Artem passed away. I had nobody else to talk about some topics to.
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Solovyov became one of my close friends. You said you were friends with Artem Borovik. What do you think about his death?
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Do you think it was a tragic accident or something else? I know that Yury Luzhkov did everything to investigate this accident.
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It turned out that the wing flaps were not covered with the antifreeze liquid. It was a cold night in early March.
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The flaps didn't open during the take-off. The plane failed to take-off and fell down.
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This is what I found out from the investigation. Why weren't the flaps covered with liquid?
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I don't know. This was a tragedy for me and for Yury Luzhkov. We both would have a picture of Artem on our desks.
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We would call him every day. He was one of the brightest people of his time.
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One of the best reporters. Artem Borovik was hesitant about Putin as a new president.
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Yes, and we talked about it. I disagreed with him.. Unfortunately. What did you argue about?
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Artem Borovik felt like a KGB officer could never be a good person. The Family picked him..They wanted him to become a president.
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There was no way to prevent this. They picked him for some reason. Yumashev Tatiana Shabdurasulov Sasha..Voloshin.
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Berezovsky..Who else? And Naina Yeltsina. They decided to pick this young, sober man. He was very loyal.
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They believed that he would never betray them. Berezovsky told me that Putin was a simple man.
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He told me he was honest and unspoiled. This was his reputation. And Borovik did not believe in it.
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He didn't. While you disagreed with him. I asked him: what are the options? I asked him to suggest another option.
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Boris Nemtsov. Yes, he was friends with Nemtsov. Have you seen his last interview? He gave it to..can't remember the name.
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The reporter asked him if he was scared of death. I remember this interview. I met him after this interview.
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He supported democrats that were not related to secret services or military. He believed that a new president had to be a civilian.
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This was his opinion. Nemtsov matched this description. They were friends. It turned out that Artem Borovik was right.
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Yes, he was right. You and Yury Luzhkov. Your business prime coincided with his terms as Moscow Mayor.
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Where did you first meet him? I don't agree with you. I built my first buildings before Luzhkov.
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I built these in the Soviet Union. I didn't built them alone. I built them with my partners.
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We built our first building in the Soviet Union. We were building our second and third buildings in the Soviet Union.
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I was talking about the prime, not the beginning. The flagship that we built on Belinskiy Street..
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This was a big project, 25 thousand square meters.. It was one of a kind in Moscow. It's still very prestigious.
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But you are right - I don't deny this. However I started building houses in the Soviet Union.
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How did you meet Yury Luzhkov? Resin introduced me to him. Resin? I met Resin in 1988.
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After finishing my first building. We were having difficulties with materials. Resin was a head of Moscow Construction Department.
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At the same time there was a Russian-American enterprise called Perestroika. They would get all the best objects in Moscow.
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I was the pain in the neck for them. Resin, however, helped me by letting me purchase the construction materials.
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Then we had trouble with connecting the building to sewage and power systems. We had a lot of trouble with everything.
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Why did he help you? He has this sense..He saw that we liked what we were doing.
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He helped a lot of people, not only me. Resin played a big role in my life.
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I am grateful to him. Okay, let's talk about Resin. What do you think about him?
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I like him. Do you? ACF did an investigation about him where they said: If we needed to build a statue to the most corrupt liar and the most daring millionaire..
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We would build a statue of Vladimir Resin. How do you feel about this claim?
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You know what..Let me be honest. I never gave him a penny. I did give him presents.
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What kind of presents? For his birthday or his anniversary. What presents? Watch. What watch?
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I bought him an expensive watch. Rolex? Breguet? Very expensive watch. He was collecting them and bought him one.
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How much did it cost? A lot. I can't remember. Tens of thousands dollars. Yes, of course.
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A businessman giving an authority related to his industry an expensive present. Isn't this corruption?
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Resin had no power over me. I had access to Luzhkov. I had some power over Resin.
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Resin worked from my building. His office was located in my building. I didn't need Resin to get any permissions.
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I had access to Luzhkov. I needed his permission for Rossiya demolition. Even Luzhkov could not give me this permission alone.
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We had to go through certain procedure to get the permission. Resin could not give us any permissions.
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Okay. Resin was responsible for infrastructure, architecture..He was an authority. I didn't need him. He was promoted because of me.
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He became responsible for all the construction in Moscow. Yes. If it wasn't for me Popov would fire him.
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I helped Resin stay. Two months before the elections I was flying in the same plane as Popov.
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I was flying to meet Resin in Zurich to start a joint enterprise with Schindler.
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This was all happening in the Soviet Union. This was in February of 1989 or 1990.
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I accidentally met Popov on the plane while the plane was undergoing deicing. I told him I was a developer.
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He told me he would fire the communist Resin as soon as he became the Mayor.
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I told him that Resin played a useful role. I told him that the construction would stop if he fired Resin.
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Without Resin construction would probably collapse. I am being honest with you. Resin saved construction in Moscow. He did it the Soviet way.
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Nikolsky, another communist, saved the production in Moscow. You can't blame me for loving communists.
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People in Moscow always had access to food. There was no hunger in Moscow, unlike many other cities.
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When we were flying back from Zurich to Moscow I made Resin sit next to Popov and talk to him.
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They talked to each other and Popov appointed Resin the head of development department. Which included all the production, architecture, and so on.
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Is it correct that the person responsible for construction in Moscow owed you his position?
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You can think so. De facto.. Yes. He was grateful to me and I am grateful to him for a lot of things.
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There are many specific issues when it comes to building a home. It's not as easy as it seems.
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In 1990s building a home in Moscow was a miracle. And yet they were building 5 million square meters every year in Moscow.
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People were getting these flats. Is Resin corrupt? In a sense that you mean it - he is.
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What sense is that? You say that he took bribes. This is what my colleagues brought up.
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Do they know anything about it? Resin never took any bribes. He's a very smart and tricky person.
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I'm not saying anything about.. He's always wearing a very expensive watch. A million dollar watch.
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Yes. Real estate worth 2 billion roubles. For all his life he's been an authority.
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There is nothing wrong with being rich if you make money legally. He's lived in Barvikha former sanatorium for his whole life.
Speaker A
He lived there in 1990s. A million dollar watch owned by a person who would never make enough money to buy it.
Speaker A
He was never involved in any businesses. How could he afford all these luxuries? A lot of authorities would just steal companies from other people..
Speaker A
We're not talking about other authorities now. Where did he get the two billion real estate from?
Speaker A
You might call this corruption. Without corruption our country could not move forward. There was no way to avoid it back then.
Speaker A
Think of it. In 1994 we established an enterprise with American company Mobil. We would build gas stations in Moscow.
Speaker A
Eventually the enterprise got sold to BP. I'm proud of this business. In the end of the negotiations the Americans drew a triangle on a piece of paper.
Speaker A
And pointed at the triangle. What about this? I asked him what he meant. He looked at his lawyers and whispered: The 'roof'.
Speaker A
Okay.. Who's going to protect us? The Americans in 1994 understood this. There was a threat that someone would take your business away.
Speaker A
Criminals would request a share in your business. I told him we didn't need protection.
Speaker A
Would you be the protection? - he asked me. I told him nothing was going to happen to us in Moscow.
Speaker A
We were close to Moscow Government and we were safe. Why? Was Luzhkov bigger than criminals?
Speaker A
He was. All the gangs could not fight him. We were building a network of gas stations. Every gas station would sweep all the competitors within three kilometers.
Speaker A
The competitors were all owned by mafia and they were selling counterfeit gasoline. And they would all go bankrupt.
Speaker A
So? They couldn't do anything about it. We created the gas stations association. And made peace with everyone.
Speaker A
We distributed all the areas of the city legally. We shared the city among tens of owners.
Speaker A
There was no fight. We made peace with everyone. These were the times. Nowadays you can call this corruption.
Speaker A
To get a permission to build a gas station we needed to collect 800 signatures.
Speaker A
As a reward we would send the authorities to a business travel. To Paris? To Paris or somewhere else..
Speaker A
A bribe disguised as a business trip. Yes. We did it, too. This was called facilitation fee.
Speaker A
There was a special term for it. Facilitation fees were included in business plans. Of foreign companies.
Speaker A
Everyone knew they had to lubricate this mechanism. Today you can call this corruption. I don't deny it.
Speaker A
I appreciate it. Why doesn't this affect the way you see Resin today? You praise him even though he took so many bribes.
Speaker A
I feel like he did a lot for Moscow. A lot of people don't like him but he did a lot of good.
Speaker A
Could he do it without buying real estate worth 2 billion roubles? I haven't been to Moscow in a while. He's an elderly man now..
Speaker A
He's not in his best shape. I called him to wish him a happy birthday not long ago.
Speaker A
He wanted to come to my 70th anniversary but he couldn't do it. To Georgia?
Speaker A
Yes, to Georgia. I feel like if Luzhkov didn't have Resin he wouldn't succeed in construction.
Speaker A
No doubt about it. We're meeting at Cote d'Azur. Yes. I used to think you lived in the US.
Speaker A
I live in the US, I have a green card. You're not a citizen yet.
Speaker A
I'm not yet. Do you only have Russian citizenship? My Russian citizenship is outdated. My passport has expired.
Speaker A
I have Israeli citizenship. And I have a US green card. Why are you staying in Cote d'Azur?
Speaker A
Because of low taxes? No. My wife was a resident of Monaco and I moved to her.
Speaker A
I stay here a lot. She lived here before she met you. Yes. We met thirteen years ago.
Speaker A
How many years is she younger than you? She's 32 years younger. So she's forty..
Speaker A
She's turning 45. Did you have any problems with such a gap when you met her?
Speaker A
Of course, it made me think about it.. So how did you get rid of these thoughts?
Speaker A
I'm still getting rid of them. Still? Do you still have doubts? I always have doubts.
Speaker A
Were you worried that she's much younger than you? Of course, I was. It is pretty obvious.
Speaker A
We're coming from different generations. We don't have a lot in common. We have different memories.
Speaker A
Different desires. She wants to dance and I don't. So how do you solve these problems?
Speaker A
Very easy. I don't go dancing. I hate loud noise. She can go dancing if she wants to.
Speaker A
Are you fine with it? I'm fine. People often say that an older man has a trophy wife.
Speaker A
What does that mean? It means that this man found a young girl to look better.
Speaker A
It's not true. We have real feelings. From my side, at least. I've realized that I'm not a big expert in women.
Speaker A
I don't understand them. Maybe that's good. Your divorce with your ex-wife was in the news.
Speaker A
It was. You were accused of harassment. You were also accused of harassing your daughter.
Speaker A
Yes. Inappropriate touch. Yes, inappropriate touch. This is bollocks. This is America. What does it mean?
Speaker A
It's quite easy to accuse anyone there. The court would investigate this very carefully. And if there is no proof then the case would be dismissed.
Speaker A
You ex-wife accused you of harassing your daughter. She tried to prove that I behaved inappropriately with kids.
Speaker A
Which isn't rare in America. Lawyers are making a lot of money from such cases.
Speaker A
I had to go through it to prove that I wasn't guilty. I have great relationship with all my kids.
Speaker A
I'm terrified when I think about this case. There was a risk that I would be sent to prison.
Speaker A
There was a chance. Who accused you of these touches? Your daughter or your ex-wife?
Speaker A
My ex-wife. She made our daughter say it.. How old was she? She was nine years old.
Speaker A
She was a young girl. We have a great relationship with her now. How old is she now?
Speaker A
24. Did you talk to her about this case? Of course, I did. We are still talking about it.
Speaker A
This was a tragedy. For everyone. Did she explain anything? Of course, she did. We understood that we were wasting money on lawyers.
Speaker A
So we settled. I was acquitted. By court? Yes. My ex-wife was also acquitted, by the way.
Speaker A
She was accused of alienation. Alienation. She alienated the kids from me. This is also a crime in the US.
Speaker A
I was accused of treating kids inappropriately. Inappropriately touching kids. Was there a sexual context?
Speaker A
It was. This is what lawyers do very well. This case took them 18 months before it got dismissed.
Speaker A
Before the court dismissed it. What did you say to your daughter? When she grew up she called me..
Speaker A
What did she say? She apologized. She came to my home. She cried. Did she say that her mom made her say it?
Speaker A
She said she was too young and didn't understand anything. We had a candid conversation.
Speaker A
Are you in touch with your ex-wife? We're not. There are things you can't forgive.
Speaker A
Forbes wrote: in 1991 Luzhkov became the new Moscow Mayor.. and developer Shalva Chigirinsky quickly got in touch with the new team.
Speaker A
He would have up to 40 guests on Mikoyan's mansion in Barvikha, where Stalin used to go to banya.
Speaker A
How true is that? This is nonsense. First of all, Popov left in 1992. Not in 1991.
Speaker A
I had known Luzhkov for a long time. We met Brezhnev's former mansion was granted to Moscow government.
Speaker A
If I remember it correctly..I was invited there as a person who'd built a couple of buildings in Moscow.
Speaker A
I didn't have any education in construction. I was trying not to talk too much.
Speaker A
Luzhkov showed Popov his big plans. Building Moscow City, and so on.. Popov asked me what I thought about it.
Speaker A
I told him that I loved the vastness of our plans, as Mayakovsky wrote. I didn't believe that these projects would come to life.
Speaker A
Luzhkov told me to wait a little before I could build huge projects. He was young and energetic.
Speaker A
He was hard-working and creative. He was solving a lot of problems individually. Because of his flexibility Moscow raised a lot of money.
Speaker A
The first banks were opened in Saint Petersburg because Sobchak was very respected in the West.
Speaker A
The first Soviet democrat. Yes. And then Moscow attracted more money. Construction failed miserably in Saint Petersburg.
Speaker A
All the money got stolen by small companies. There was no complexity of construction industry.
Speaker A
Building new houses was impossible without changing all the utilities. Luzhkov did it. He had resources to do it.
Speaker A
He had people, he had engineers, architects.. They didn't run. They stayed to make money.
Speaker A
The market was developing. And I'm grateful for it. The whole country needed to face this raw capitalism.
Speaker A
It was a necessary stage, in my opinion. I might be wrong. You can criticize me.
Speaker A
I feel like we had to go through this phase to build capitalism. And we didn't need high oil prices.
Speaker A
Oil became expensive only in 2002. Luzhkov starting the construction of Moscow City.. He built the Ring Road.
Speaker A
The Third Ring Road. Yes. He spent a lot of money. He created the infrastructure for the future.
Speaker A
He started the renovation program. Are there many five-floor houses left in Moscow? There are.
Speaker A
Yes, but there used to be much more of these. So you met him a long time ago.
Speaker A
We met a long time ago when everything was allowed in construction. We could build two or three extra floors. Or ten floors.
Speaker A
We would get the permission. Only you or anyone could do it? Anyone, including me.
Speaker A
Anyone? I would only work on government projects. I would not choose regular projects. I rented this big mansion.
Speaker A
I rented it from 1995 or 1996.. We had a lot of guests. This was a former mansion of Anastas Mikoyan.
Speaker A
It was. It was owned by the President's Office. So I rented this mansion and lived there.
Speaker A
Would you have a lot of guests there? Everyone would come.. Authorities too? Authorities reporters artists.
Speaker A
We would have performances.. Why would you invite authorities? Luzhkov would come with other authorities.
Speaker A
He would bring his guests to my home. I had Georgian cuisine. We had delicious food.
Speaker A
I had a chef from Aragvi, a Georgian restaurant. It was a legendary Soviet restaurant.
Speaker A
It was. People liked to come to my place. If Luzhkov was meeting a Mayor of another city..
Speaker A
He even brought Jacques Chirac to my mansion. The president of France. He would come when he was a Mayor of Paris.
Speaker A
He loved Georgian cuisine and Georgian wine. Would you have such guests for GR? Luzhkov warned me about such guests.
Speaker A
And I would meet them with great pleasure. Could you say no to him? How could I say no?
Speaker A
If you weren't in the mood..Or if you were busy. Having a date with your wife..
Speaker A
No. Family time. I could tell him I wasn't in Moscow. And he wouldn't come.
Speaker A
This could happen. I would never say no to him. I cared about Yury Luzhkov's status. He was a Mayor of Moscow, whom I respected a lot.
Speaker A
I respected his work. Moscow was rebuilt from ruins. In 1998 and 1999 Alexei Navalny was a lawyer in ST Group company.
Speaker A
This company was owned by you. I didn't know him back then. You don't remember him.
Speaker A
To be honest, I don't. When did you find out? I found out when I read his book.
Speaker A
Patriot? Yes. He mentioned the company. It surprised me. I didn't like that he was being sarcastic about it.
Speaker A
He wrote that the company sent the employees on a cheap vacation in Turkey. He wrote about going to Turkey..
Speaker A
Nobody else did it for their employees. The company paid for their vacation. This was our was of team-building.
Speaker A
I might be wrong about his sarcasm.. I've got to read it once again. How did you like the book?
Speaker A
It's fine. I like Navalny. He's a very talented and brave man. Reckless brave man.
Speaker A
When did you first meet Elena Baturina? I think I met her in 1991-1992. She was with her husband Luzhkov on all the trips.
Speaker A
He would have a lot of business trips. I would often travel with them. As well as Resin.
Speaker A
He would travel around Russia and abroad, too. Baturina, Resin, and you all worked from one building.
Speaker A
When I built the flagship building.. The top floor was owned by Credit Suisse bank, then there was Bank Societe General..
Speaker A
Then Exxon, then Credit Suisse again.. And then International Monetary Fund. Then one floor lower we had Coopers & Lybrand, which is now called Price Waterhouse.
Speaker A
Almost all the business in Russia was going through my building. International Monetary Fund was funding Russian government.
Speaker A
They were issuing government bonds. Why didn't ACF investigate this? How IMF introduced government bonds with crazy returns?
Speaker A
They stole it from Russians. They should pay attention to this. Chubais and Fedorov, the minister of Finance, would often come to my building.
Speaker A
When Luzhkov saw that we built this huge house on time.. I will show you the picture of him and Resin visiting it for the first time. They were amazed.
Speaker A
His wife Elena said: I was told that this is the best building in the city. I want to work here.
Speaker A
She was already the head of Inteco. She was the head of Inteco but she wasn't too famous yet.
Speaker A
When Popov resigned he would also work from my building. And 75% of the building was given to Baturina.
Speaker A
Resin gave her the building on behalf of Moscow. She worked from the fourth floor and I worked from the eighth.
Speaker A
It looks like you built an office for a big authority and a wife for the biggest authority in the city to do your business.
Speaker A
I did. Pretty good, isn't it? I built this house. There were no other buildings like this.
Speaker A
It had a kitchen, it had catering.. It had a parking. It was located in the city center.
Speaker A
Famous companies would work from this building. Everyone wanted to work there. At this time capital merged with political power.
Speaker A
This is what happened in Russia and went unnoticed. It didn't go unnoticed. This determined the future.
Speaker A
The politicians realized that they could regulate the competition and the business realized that they could and should bribe the politicians.
Speaker A
You are successful not because your company is successful but because of your allies. Who protects you?
Speaker A
What can you do? Can anyone replace you? This is what mattered. Do you agree that this lead Russia to where it is at now?
Speaker A
This too. I believe that this phase was unavoidable. Do you think so because you took part in this process?
Speaker A
No, I think so because this happened in other countries, too. Everywhere. When there is a boost of capitalism..
Speaker A
Dreiser wrote about it..It's a great book. You'll find out how they did it in the US.
Speaker A
What is your opinion on Elena Baturina and her power over Luzhkov? It was increasing.
Speaker A
Did it change? It increased over time. In the beginning she didn't have a lot of power.
Speaker A
She was quiet. But eventually she got more power over her husband. You said that she had an alternative city government.
Speaker A
Yes. What did it look like? She appointed a person who would sign every document before Luzhkov.
Speaker A
This was in 2007. Not long before he got fired. Yes, not long before I left Russia and he got fired.
Speaker A
What was the position of this person? I can't remember. I knew him but I never needed him.
Speaker A
I didn't need his permission. I could get the permissions from Luzhkov directly. I didn't need all these people.
Speaker A
I could call them and invite them to my office. And they would visit me with great pleasure.
Speaker A
Do you think it's normal when the Mayor's wife is the owner of the biggest developing company?
Speaker A
It is not normal. It's not. Back then it was normal. Was there no choice?
Speaker A
Well.. I get what you're saying about early capitalism.. Yury..This was not normal. Luzhkov told me that Putin didn't find it normal.
Speaker A
Luzhkov told Putin that he was a burden for his wife. Without him she would be even wealthier.
Speaker A
She had to stop herself.. Yes, she was suffering losses because of him. This is false. Similar to 'Russia never invaded anyone' He loved his wife a lot.
Speaker A
It happens. Can you imagine? It doesn't happen too often but I saw it. He trusted his wife and believed everything she said.
Speaker A
Can you afford such a mansion now? Of course, I can't. I wouldn't buy it today.
Speaker A
Why? I don't need it. Do you miss being able to afford it? Both yes and no.
Speaker A
To be honest, I never relaxed at this mansion. I always had guests there. I would have lunch or dinner with someone all the time.
Speaker A
I was working all the time. I could not relax and do nothing. I could not stay alone. I could not spend time with my kids.
Speaker A
Would Russian authorities come here? Of course, they would. Yury Luzhkov and his wife would come here.
Speaker A
A lot of authorities visited this mansion. Did they pay for transportation? Yes, they did.
Speaker A
I paid for the helicopter. From the airport? We had a lump-sum contract.. I would pay a fixed price for every flight, which was quite cheap.
Speaker A
How much would one flight cost? About 400 or 500 Euro. One way? They would pay for the helicopter and you would accomodate them in your mansion.
Speaker A
They wouldn't pay for anything. I would pay for the helicopter every year and they would use it for free.
Speaker A
We had people meeting the helicopter. It wasn't easy. We would take care of the helipad.
Speaker A
We would have lights there so they could fly at night. It's not that simple.
Speaker A
Were you relations with Luzhkov and Baturina corruption? Yes. Can you tell us what exactly?
Speaker A
Everything. When my business was growing I faced a threat. Petroleum and real estate businesses were both under threat.
Speaker A
The biggest oil deposit got stolen from me. On August 2, 2002 they attempted to capture the Moscow Refinery.
Speaker A
Abramovich ordered Vainshtock to stop the transfer of oil to the Moscow Refinery. There were no disruptions even during the WW2.
Speaker A
Abramovich, however, disrupted oil supply. How did you benefit from working with Luzhkov? Luzhkov gave you land to build houses on..
Speaker A
You built office buildings and share your profit with Baturina. Baturina being the Mayor's wife would protect your business.
Speaker A
Not really. Please correct me. In 2003 it was obvious that every business needed protection to survive.
Speaker A
I would either quit or find protection in the new conditions. The new conditions were the following: Putin's businessmen were trying to capture all the business in Moscow.
Speaker A
I had to choose: I was offered to a role in Putin's hierarchy. I was offered to work with his people who would give me protection.
Speaker A
It was clear that I would not survive without protection. These were the businessmen from Saint Petersburg.
Speaker A
Yes. In the past I could survive without protection by what you call bribing the officials..
Speaker A
It is bribery. From 2003 bribing them was not enough. I had to start a joint enterprise with Baturina.
Speaker A
We created two companies. One of them worked with petroleum, another one - with real estate.
Speaker A
What would Baturina get? These companies were developing projects.. Building houses and.. We were going to build houses..We couldn't.
Speaker A
Hotels Rossiya and Moskva..The projects were ready.. I had to quit these projects. I didn't want to create a clash of Luzhkov and Putin's people.
Speaker A
I was wise enough to quit. The Rotenberg family and their people took this project away from us.
Speaker A
I interrupted you. You were working on these projects and.. And we would make money from them.
Speaker A
And then.. We didn't make money.. We only invested money. I invested money in all these projects.
Speaker A
The demolition of Rossiya, building the Russia tower in City. This was the biggest construction project in Moscow.
Speaker A
We had a plenty of projects. We built the New Holland in Saint Petersburg. This project was acclaimed worldwide.
Speaker A
We won the best restoration award in Cannes. We received the prize that I sent to Putin.
Speaker A
He liked this project, too. You invested in these projects and.. We planned to go to IPO.
Speaker A
We were growing until the 2008 crisis. So where's the corruption? Baturina was my partner.
Speaker A
Nobody knew about it. It went public only during the court hearing in London. Offshore companies were involved.
Speaker A
There was a Swiss company. A Swiss company.. Owned by me and Baturina. Baturina was the beneficiary of the company.
Speaker A
She was, yes. The court stated you paid for her private jet. Of course, I did.
Speaker A
How much did it cost you? 12 million? No. I didn't buy her a jet.
Speaker A
Total expenses..I read about 12 million dollars. This can't be real. Who said this? Is this too much?
Speaker A
I don't know.. I could pay 5-6 million a year for the jet. You were paying for her jet.
Speaker A
The company was paying for it. And she could fly anywhere she wanted. Yes, she could.
Speaker A
You only told me about the corruption after 2003. In 2003 we officially became business partners.
Speaker A
I don't know whether Luzkhov was aware or not. Do you think that Luzhkov wasn't aware of this business?
Speaker A
I don't know this. We never talked about it. Never. How could he not know?
Speaker A
He could not. Could not? But I can't be sure about it. Everything that I say - I can only be sure if I saw it.
Speaker A
There are things that I can't be sure about. Sometimes you can be wrong when you're trying to guess.
Speaker A
It might look obvious and you will still be wrong. I only know things that I saw.
Speaker A
I'm telling you about the things that I saw. The rest is just guesses. I never talked to Luzhkov about it.
Speaker A
Never. And to Resin, too. It might look weird but it's true. I did work with Elena. She was the Mayor's wife but she was also a businesswoman.
Speaker A
She didn't see anything wrong about it. Coming back to the beginning..Why do I want to talk to the next generation?
Speaker A
You should understand that it wasn't considered corruption back then. This was normal. The Mayor of Moscow is the owner of the city.
Speaker A
She's his wife. Who else would help us? This is the Soviet mentality. How did Stalin treat the country?
Speaker A
He felt like he owned it. People were his slaves. He would shoot them or release them if he wanted to.
Speaker A
Do you agree that my generation is not wrong by being mad? I'm glad that you're mad.
Speaker A
You should understand that there was no choice back then. Students in MSU were taught that capitalism was fake.
Speaker A
They were told it was robbery. Soviet people believed that capitalists were thieves and had to be destroyed.
Speaker A
Mister twister. If we're the capitalists now - we take whatever we want. Why can't we?
Speaker A
You're not taking it from anyone. Did you win the tender to demolish Rossiya Hotel with the help of Baturina?
Speaker A
I don't think so. Do you think it was a fair win? Of course, it was.
Speaker A
This was Foster's project. We got rejected for three times. It was really hard to get approval.
Speaker A
If I remember it correctly.. There was a huge jury with architects from all over the world.
Speaker A
And they voted. I got 15 of 25 total votes. My project got 15 votes.
Speaker A
Strabag was also taking part in the competition.. And they were willing to invest much more money, up to a billion dollars.
Speaker A
There was a big scandal. Many people believed you won because of Luzhkov and Baturina.
Speaker A
They might think so but I don't think so. Our project was better. You can compare all the projects that took part in the competition.
Speaker A
Our project was in fact very good. Unfortunately, it was not built. It took a lot of health from me. I didn't sleep for a few months.
Speaker A
It was very hard to demolish this coffin in the center of Moscow. This is what I'm most proud of.
Speaker A
I've built many projects. I'm proud of this demolition more than of anything that I've built.
Speaker A
Rossiya Hotel was a shame for the whole city. It was ugly. It was a cancer.
Speaker A
I suggested to get rid of it and Putin approved it. Luzhkov asked him for approval.
Speaker A
Some people called this a monument of Soviet minimalism. It was a terrible building. When it was built it was modern.
Speaker A
But it stood in front of Kremlin. Such a huge building in the heart of the city.
Speaker A
What do you think about the park that replaced it? I don't like it. Why?
Speaker A
I don't like it. This is my subjective opinion. Or actually objective. Anyone can see the Kremlin from there.
Speaker A
Shall we get rid of GUM now? You've just said that the hotel obscured the view.
Speaker A
Our project was twice as low. Moreover, we designed viewpoints. Of Saint Basil's Cathedral and Cathedral of Christ the Savior.
Speaker A
Luzhkov was one of the presidential candidates in 2000. He was. You were close to him.
Speaker A
You saw that Putin became a president and Luzhkov did not. Can you tell us what you saw?
Speaker A
Luzhkov never announced that he wanted to become a president. But everyone believed that he had to.
Speaker A
Everyone who Putin called Camarilla supported Luzhkov. Many people were unhappy with Yeltsin. Luzhkov and Primakov united for this one purpose.
Speaker A
Luzhkov had a big support across the country because he helped many Russian regions. I know that he helped Altai.
Speaker A
He even helped Crimea. He was the first one to start this conversation about Crimea.
Speaker A
It's true. Yanukovich was Luzhkov's friend. Luzhkov later introduced him to Putin. At Luzhkov's office I would often meet the Commander of Kantermirovskaya division.
Speaker A
Tamanskaya division. Luzhkov supported them financially. They were his army. Yes literally. He could have come to power at any moment.
Speaker A
He had supporters in the military. He had their support. Yeltsin was already looking for a new president.
Speaker A
Putin was still the head of FSB. The decision wasn't made yet. I'll talk about it later.
Speaker A
Yeltsin suggested Stepashin as a first step. To be the next president. This is when he said 'Sitting the wrong way' This is a meme from 1999.
Speaker A
Berezovsky told me that they chose Stepashin. At the same time Primakov's ratings reached 40%.
Speaker A
Luzhkov's ratings reached 28%, if we believe these ratings. And Yeltsin's ratings fell to 3%.
Speaker A
In 1999. Yes, early 1999. In 1999 I bought the petroleum business as a public company.
Speaker A
Berezovsky knew this and I tried to help Luzhkov and Berezovsky make peace. I arranged their meetings.
Speaker A
Luzhkov didn't want anyone to know about it, even his wife. We'll talk about Berezovsky a little later.
Speaker A
There were talks that Luzhkov and Primakov should unite. One of them become the president and another one the Prime Minister.
Speaker A
And they would compete against all the others. Nobody considered throwing Yeltsin out of Kremlin.
Speaker A
At this point Yeltsin had lost control. Yastrzhembsky began working for Luzhkov. And nobody considered this idea?
Speaker A
To throw Yeltsin out of Kremlin. No. Luzhkov didn't want to do it. Luzhkov refused to run for presidency.
Speaker A
Primakov and Luzhkov would first run for the Duma elections and then for presidential elections.
Speaker A
Yes. One of them would become.. I introduced Luzhkov to Lord Bell, a famous man, now dead.
Speaker A
I wanted Bell to run the campaign. Luzhkov and Primakov were supposed to decide, who was going to be the president.
Speaker A
They never decided. Why? I don't know. Lord Bell told me he didn't understand what they wanted.
Speaker A
They met at my country house. Mikoyan's mansion. Yes. With my translators. Primakov and Luzhkov never had this conversation.
Speaker A
I knew Luzhkov, god rest his soul, very well. I told him to decide who was going to be the president.
Speaker A
Lord Bell told Luzhkov that he could be the Prime Minister because he was good at economics.
Speaker A
Primakov was older than Luzhkov and it would be wise to let Primakov run for presidency.
Speaker A
Russia had a lot of political problems that Primakov would solve. While Luzhkov would solve the economic issues. And four years later he would run for presidency.
Speaker A
Luzhkov would blow his cheeks when he didn't want to say anything. I asked him what he wanted.
Speaker A
I told him that he could be the president, too, but he needed to talk to Primakov first.
Speaker A
Primakov was much more popular than him. Luzhkov had support from the regions. So, they were equally powerful.
Speaker A
And they never decided. They waited until October when Dorenko destroyed them. Dorenko started a war against them and their party lost the elections.
Speaker A
Dorenko started a war and at the same time Putin came to Primakov's 70th anniversary.
Speaker A
He talked to Primakov for about fifteen minutes. Nobody knows what they talked about. After this conversation Primakov retired from politics.
Speaker A
As a presidential candidate? As a politician in general. Did you witness their conversation? Were you at this party?
Speaker A
I wasn't. Do you know this from Berezovsky? I know who told Putin to do it.
Speaker A
Who? Berezovsky. Putin didn't want to talk to Primakov. Primakov was Berezovsky's enemy. He was offended by Yeltsin firing him.
Speaker A
Nobody expected him to be kind if he became the president. He would definitely take revenge.
Speaker A
Luzhkov felt betrayed when Primakov talked to Putin. Why would he talk to their rival before the elections?
Speaker A
They couldn't talk to Putin. Putin came to the party as the Prime Minister. They shouldn't have let him in.
Speaker A
To the party? They should have talked in public. Why would they have a private conversation?
Speaker A
Luzhkov felt betrayed and.. This is what I think. And then their coalition broke up.
Speaker A
Yes, in my opinion. Berezovsky was laughing at them. I asked him if he did it.
Speaker A
So Putin didn't try to threaten Primakov. It was a game. They just talked.. And this led to a conflict between Primakov and Luzhkov.
Speaker A
Yes. It was a regular conversation. The coalition was being heavily bullied at that time.
Speaker A
By Dorenko. Dorenko, Berezovksy's reporter, who supported Putin.. He would interview Putin every week. And he bullied Primakov and Luzhkov.
Speaker A
Primakov met with Putin..It wasn't Putin's idea.. His team was bullying Primakov. Nobody treated Putin as an actor. He was seen as the Family's candidate.
Speaker A
So Primakov broke under this pressure.. Do you remember the posters: The Family loves Roman?
Speaker A
There were billboards in Moscow.. Yes, and Primakov decided to retire from politics.. Putin didn't put him under any pressure. They just talked..
Speaker A
In general, Primakov faced a lot of pressure. We don't know what the conversation was about.
Speaker A
Primakov was not a kid. Had Putin decided to threaten him he would have told everyone.
Speaker A
I mean that Primakov retired.. Luzhkov and Primakov both quit. They both quit the race.
Speaker A
Luzhkov thought that he would be crowned like Ivan IV. This did not happen. Luzhkov needed to talk to Yeltsin.
Speaker A
Yeltsin liked him and wanted to make him the next president. But for several reasons, such as Listyev's death..
Speaker A
Yeltsin gave Luzhkov 24 hours to find the murderer. It wasn't Luzhkov's fault. The whole country was run by criminals.
Speaker A
Why did Luzhkov quit? Because he felt like Primakov was acting weird? Yes. Why did Primakov quit?
Speaker A
Primakov broke. His ratings were falling. If you look at this ratings before Dorenko's shows..
Speaker A
And during this period.. I did this. I suggest you to look at it, too.
Speaker A
His ratings were falling down. They were. Yevgeny Kiselev and Gusinsky supported Primakov and Luzhkov.
Speaker A
They should have ignored Dorenko. This is what Lord Bell told them. He told them to ignore Dorenko.
Speaker A
He told them not to reply. But they decided to fight him. Primakov and Luzhkov would say different things that contradicted each other.
Speaker A
And their coalition broke up. So there was no campaign with Lord Bell. No. They failed to make a decision.
Speaker A
Had they chosen the candidate, they could probably have won the elections. Despite all the hate from Dorenko.
Speaker A
I wasn't in touch with Berezovsky for some time. He was being prosecuted. I told him not to come back to Russia.
Speaker A
I told him that he should accept his defeat. I told him that nobody was going to vote for Putin.
Speaker A
With all due respect.. This was happening in the fall of 1999. The summer of 1999.
Speaker A
Putin was already the Prime Minister. He was just appointed. I told them to buy tight shirts for him because his neck was sticking out.
Speaker A
His shirts were too big. Nowadays he looks confident. In 1999 he didn't look like a leader.
Speaker A
At least, for me. He knows how to walk and how to move now. Back then he was inexperienced.
Speaker A
Luzhkov couldn't believe it. Everyone waited for some powerful candidate. Putin wasn't chosen by the family as the candidate.
Speaker A
They appointed him as the Prime Minister. Anyone who became the Prime Minister could be either replaced soon or become the presidential candidate.
Speaker A
Berezovsky told me that they bet on Putin. I asked him: are you our of your mind? Do you want to go to prison?
Speaker A
I told him that he was risking his life. Primakov hated him..I knew Primakov quite well.
Speaker A
Primakov told me that Berezovsky was true evil. Berezovsky? Yes. Primakov would destroy him like Trotsky.
Speaker A
I don't think that Berezovsky was the true evil. He was a great scientist, a mathematician, a chess player.
Speaker A
He was a nice guy. I enjoyed talking to him. A nice guy? He could talk about anything.
Speaker A
A nice guy? Yes. Let's talk about it later. He said he would come back to Moscow soon.
Speaker A
There was no way to make him change his mind. He was stubborn like Luzhkov.
Speaker A
I decided to stay away. I could not do anything about this situation. I was minding my own business.
Speaker A
I had a separate phone that I would call Berezovsky from. A phone only for Berezovsky?
Speaker A
Yes. He would call this phone if he needed to talk to me. There was no point in setting up a meeting with him. He was always late.
Speaker A
Putin might have copied this from him. He was always late. Always! Nobody could set up a meeting with him.
Speaker A
And there was no way to change this. He would always say sorry. He apologized to me a couple of days before his death.
Speaker A
One day called me at 12 or 1 in the night. He told me that he needed me right now.
Speaker A
I asked him what happened. He said he was in the hospital and he needed to see me.
Speaker A
In Moscow? Yes. I told him Boris, it's past 12 o'clock in the night. He said he needed me urgently.
Speaker A
I asked him what happened. He told me: we're taking the power. I asked him: what power?
Speaker A
It was too late. They lost everything. There was no more power. No party, no leader. Nobody.
Speaker A
He said he would create a party and win the elections. He named Belkovsky, Dorenko, and Misha..
Speaker A
Leontiev? Yes. And Shabdurasulov. I knew him well. I don't know where he is now.
Speaker A
I told Boris I didn't want to be seen at his hospital. I told him he could come to my place.
Speaker A
And he agreed. He said he had spots on his face.. He was sick with rubella.
Speaker A
Yes, he was. Can you go outside with rubella? You can't. Can anyone stop Berezovsky?
Speaker A
He looked like a Jesuit when he arrived. He was wearing a hood. We met in the El Dorado restaurant.
Speaker A
So what did he want from you? He needed my house for his headquarters. A house for headquarters.
Speaker A
Yes. We sold the building to Smolensky, a banker. He had already paid half of the money.
Speaker A
We sold the building for a hundred million. He paid 50 and gave us 50 more as a loan to build three more houses.
Speaker A
He bought Selkhozbank and went bankrupt. He bought the building before the 1998 crisis. We bought expensive furniture and did luxury finishing for him.
Speaker A
My brother built the most luxury office for him. The top floor had sofas and wood panelling.
Speaker A
Conference rooms..Floating elevators.. Catering, everything. The building was ready to operate. And then Smolensky went bankrupt.
Speaker A
And the building becomes yours. It was still ours. He was a friend of Berezovsky.
Speaker A
Smolensky was willing to sell the building to anyone. He wanted to leave Russia forever.
Speaker A
I told him we didn't need to fight over this building. I understood that he had no money.
Speaker A
Nobody in the country had money. Boris wouldn't give him any money, too. Berezovsky asked me to give him this building for his headquarters.
Speaker A
I am a friend of Luzhkov. Would I give Berezovsky this building where he would fight against Luzhkov?
Speaker A
I asked him: are you out of your mind? Do you want Luzhkov to destroy me?
Speaker A
How can I give you my building? It's an intricate situation. It is. Three hours later I told him that he lost.
Speaker A
He said he was winning. In the end, I agreed to give him the building and immediately though: what have I done?
Speaker A
I was stuck between Scylla and Charybdis. There was no doubt that Luzhkov would find out.
Speaker A
I asked Berezovsky not to tell anyone. I told him he could use the building and do whatever he wanted.
Speaker A
Berezovsky didn't offer any money for this building. He told me: if we win everything's going to be great.
Speaker A
I told him: you're not going to win! He said: the whole country will belong to us! Let's risk it all!
Speaker A
You're a gambler! You've got to take this risk! He took off the hood.. I said okay.
Speaker A
On the next day I told my assistants to clear the building for him. I asked Berezovsky if I could continue to sell this building.
Speaker A
A week after I sent my brokers to the buildings and they were denied entrance.
Speaker A
I realized that the building was gone. I regretted everything. What could I do? I went to Luzhkov.
Speaker A
I told him: you might lose the elections. They didn't believe that Putin was an independent candidate.
Speaker A
They thought that he was Berezovsky's man. No, they thought that he was the Family's man.
Speaker A
The Family chose him.. And they would tell him what to do.. Yes. And Berezovsky would manage him day-to-day.
Speaker A
As a member of the Family. Yes. I told Luzhkov that he asked me to give him the building.
Speaker A
And I told Luzhkov that he could punish me.. I did give Berezovsky the building.
Speaker A
There was a chance that they would win. I told him that his coalition failed.
Speaker A
Luzhkov told me good job, well done. Why? Because his coalition with Primakov failed. If Putin wins you wouldn't be his enemy.
Speaker A
Luzhkov didn't like Primakov talking to Putin. So Luzhkov, the Mayor of Moscow, elected by the people..
Speaker A
Felt safe. He was pleased with his position. I guess, in 1999 he won the mayoral elections.
Speaker A
He was safe until 2003 or 2004. He wasn't young. He was fine with his position.
Speaker A
He didn't want to get involved in politics. Otechestvo Vsya Rossiya was his party, not Primakov's.
Speaker A
Luzhkov's? Yes. He was the leader of the party. Shaymiev was another leader but Luzhkov was number one.
Speaker A
Even though Shaymiev was popular, too. He told me: we'll see what happens. He said: Putin seems like a right guy.
Speaker A
I expected him to get mad at me but he was fine. We agreed not to tell anyone.
Speaker A
I wasn't following the politics because I was too busy. In the end of 1999 I was about to leave for a vacation.
Speaker A
I flew to America. No, I flew to Dubai. From Dubai I flew to the Philippines.
Speaker A
Okay. And then I got another late night call. I asked Berezovsky what happened. He was yelling. We won! We won!
Speaker A
He was at Anguilla at the Caribbean sea. The country now belongs to us! Come over! I've got a lot of women here!
Speaker A
He liked women. It happened before the New Year. He won the elections. He was preparing for the presidential elections.
Speaker A
Did he explain to you why they chose Putin? They chose him because he was loyal.
Speaker A
They didn't choose him because he was a talented manager. They only needed him to be honest and loyal.
Speaker A
Did he look honest to them? He didn't betray them. Well, an honest man is someone who doesn't break the law.
Speaker A
Listen.. Let's agree on what we call honesty. Loyalty and honesty are different. What laws are you talking about?
Speaker A
They chose a new president. Is this legal? It's not. What are you talking about then?
Speaker A
He looked loyal to them. He was loyal. He didn't break his promise. This is what they called honesty.
Speaker A
Loyalty to the Family. Yes. What do you think about Vladimir Putin? I don't like him now.
Speaker A
I didn't dislike him in the past. At first I even liked him. I'm being honest. Can you imagine the contrast?
Speaker A
We used to have Yeltsin who couldn't speak at all. And he was replaced by Putin, who could speak very well.
Speaker A
His first steps, except the bridge, were all right..And the bridge was a complicated thing..
Speaker A
When they fired everyone from NTV. Yes. This was political competition. At first Putin seemed like a progressive president.
Speaker A
He was fighting his opponents.. Was NTV a political tool of Gusinsky? It was. Was it?
Speaker A
Of course, it was. Putin fought them back. You get what you deserve. Gusinsky was fighting against Putin.
Speaker A
His channel was doing it, too. Okay. Putin fired everyone from the channel. I wouldn't have done it.
Speaker A
Some of the employees stayed at the channel.. And others left. Parfenov even stayed at NTV for some time.
Speaker A
He did stay and many people were unhappy with him. He was too loyal to the channel.
Speaker A
He tried to stay for the channel.. Putin was criticized for bringing back the old anthem.
Speaker A
I think that 30% of population believed in communism and they would never change There people were trained this way.
Speaker A
In fact, I believed that there were more than 30% of them. According to statistics, there were 30% of communists in Russia.
Speaker A
They would never change. In Ancient Rome some people followed Gaius Marius for a very long time.
Speaker A
They had a lot of influence on Roman politics. In Russia we had Soviet people who needed support.
Speaker A
Luzhkov supported them when he said that we had capitalistic production and socialistic distribution of goods.
Speaker A
This made no sense, of course. People liked it. Old ladies liked getting their pensions.
Speaker A
Nowadays I think that I was wrong. When they were trying to decide whether to bring Maskhadov back or to appoint Kadyrov in Chechnya..
Speaker A
I thought that Maskhadov was in the past. I felt like we could trust Putin's choice - he chose Kadyrov.
Speaker A
I don't remember when Putin announced that Mayors would be now chosen by him. After the terrorist attack in Beslan.
Speaker A
I didn't support this decision. All Mayors had to be elected, in my opinion. However, I know that some of the elected Mayors were criminals.
Speaker A
It's not that simple. I liked the 13% income tax. They introduced this basic tax.
Speaker A
Everyone would have to pay this 30% tax. 13%. Yes, 13%. Everyone agreed to pay it.
Speaker A
The government made more money from taxes. It was a right decision. They also introduced a tax system for oil companies.
Speaker A
They never paid taxes before. Everyone then agreed to pay taxes. Eventually Khodorkovsky was accused of not paying taxes.
Speaker A
I didn't like that they sent him to prison. A lot of people used to dislike Putin.
Speaker A
During his first term. Kasyanov used to work for him. Putin brought Chubais to Saint Petersburg.
Speaker A
Chubais worked for him for about twenty years. So many people worked for him. Decent people worked for him, too.
Speaker A
They were considered decent. The only person who hated him was Boris Nemtsov. Boris would insult him.
Speaker A
I didn't like Putin's speech in Munich. I didn't like when he turned towards China.
Speaker A
By the way, Khodorkovsky also supported building tubes in China. He didn't support the production sharing agreement.
Speaker A
He thought that Russia didn't benefit from it. He believed that Russia could trade with both the East and the West.
Speaker A
And paid attention to arising Chinese market. Putin finally started building the oil tube. It's better late than never.
Speaker A
And then I left Russia. I didn't take any political steps against Putin. Why do you dislike him now?
Speaker A
Because everything is different now. Two biggest slavic countries are fighting. Can anyone like this?
Speaker A
Some people would tell you that Putin didn't start the war. Who started it then?
Speaker A
I think that he did. He's responsible for the war. This is what I'm saying.
Speaker A
Even if he didn't start it. He's taking part in this war. Imagine that you're my brother. You offended me and you say that I started it.
Speaker A
Would you beat me or fight me or kill me? Your brother? I'm mad at my brother. Would I kill him?
Speaker A
We can get stuck in these analogies. If my brother comes to kill me I will have to fight back.
Speaker A
This is what I'm telling you.. The question is who started it. You're asking me who provoked whom.
Speaker A
No, who started the war. Putin says there were reasons the war started. What reasons?
Speaker A
Russian-Ukrainian mass graves? Millions of people are buried there. Is this the reason to start a war?
Speaker A
This is the worst war in history of Orthodox Christianity. This has never happened before.
Speaker A
This has never happened to Orthodox Christianity. The first such disaster was a liquidation of religion in Soviet Union.
Speaker A
Another one is this war. At least we can blame the communists. They had an ideology of atheism.
Speaker A
They created an atheism museum in The Kazan Cathedral. This was the country that we lived in.
Speaker A
How can we survive this? I don't know. I don't know. I think that it's a tragedy for the whole Slavic world.
Speaker A
How close were you with Berezovsky? Very close. Was he a friend of yours? He was. In 1997 I invited him to my brother's birthday party.
Speaker A
After winning the elections he was almost the biggest man in the country. He was the head of Security Council already.
Speaker A
Secretary of Security Council. Yes. I invited him because I wanted to pay respect to my brother.
Speaker A
Were you in touch with Berezovsky until his death? I called him three days before he died.
Speaker A
What mood was he in? We agreed to meet in Israel. We agreed to meet at Dead Sea.
Speaker A
We would often meet there. What do you think about what happened next? His guard, whom I know well, I forgot his name..
Speaker A
I talked to him about five years ago. The guard found him h***ed. There was nobody else in the house.
Speaker A
How could anyone enter the house and murder him? I got a call from the police.
Speaker A
They found that Boris had called me recently. They asked me what we talked about.
Speaker A
I told him that we agreed to meet in Israel. Are you sure it was a su****e?
Speaker A
I don't know. I don't know what to think now.. Now when we know about other murders?
Speaker A
Everything that happened afterwards proves that anything is possible. Anything could happen. Just like Litvinenko's death.
Speaker A
It wasn't an accident. Were you in touch with Berezovsky when Putin stopped listening to the Family?
Speaker A
When did this happen? I don't think that Putin ever showed this. I don't know where you got this from.
Speaker A
Putin was chosen as a puppet. They made a deal with Putin. Berezovsky told me that they agreed that Putin would only stay for four years.
Speaker A
This is what Dorenko said, too. If you ever talked to him. I interviewed him.
Speaker A
Okay. Berezovsky believed that they would have a president for four years and they would create a new party.
Speaker A
And we'd have two biggest parties, as they do in the US. We'd have democracy and Boris would be on top of this system.
Speaker A
He never said this but he wanted to be the supreme arbiter. They met in Biarritz.
Speaker A
With Putin? Putin came to see him in Biarritz. He would do what they agreed on.
Speaker A
I don't know if they agreed to attack NTV. Berezovsky was an opponent of NTV.
Speaker A
Eventually, when Berezovsky fell out with Putin he made peace with Gusinsky. And he would propose to make ORT a public channel.
Speaker A
They agreed about four years.. And then they would see what to do next. This is what Boris told me.
Speaker A
So four years later Berezovsky already lost his power. He lost his power In August after the submarine tragedy.
Speaker A
After Dorenko's famous report from the crash. They had disagreements when Berezovsky supported Maskhadov. Putin chose Kadyrov.
Speaker A
This was one of the reasons they split. Berezovsky tried to make decisions. He wasn't at the wheel anymore, though.
Speaker A
Weak Yeltsin was replaced by a healthy man. Putin had his own team. Everyone followed him, including Luzhkov.
Speaker A
Luzhkov was loyal to Putin. Until his last days. You called Berezovsky a nice guy.
Speaker A
Yes. You said a lot of good things about him. I think that he was a genius.
Speaker A
He bought Sibneft almost for free. He was in control of Channel One..He got it for free.
Speaker A
He did a lot of not nice things there. The people's car fraud.. This is what comes to my mind first.
Speaker A
It's hard for me to call him a nice guy. It's hard, I agree. Why do you call him a nice guy then?
Speaker A
If he was here he would explain some of his actions to you. He knew how to prove his point.
Speaker A
Back then everyone would take what they could. This AVVA business that he was working on..I told him he would fail.
Speaker A
I told him he would build a Russian bicycle with square wheels. And I was right.
Speaker A
Looking back we can now judge him for what he did.. We can, I agree with you.
Speaker A
Why is he a nice guy then? He is a nice guy.. Years later we can agree that he was mean.
Speaker A
Despite all his flaws he looked like a man who wished good for Russia. He was progressive in terms of promoting democracy and creating democratic institutions.
Speaker A
He was tough but he was as tough as his opponents. He would not kill his opponents.
Speaker A
Didn't he.. He would fight his opponents but not murder them. The biggest TV-channel in the country was promoting him. Is this democratic?
Speaker A
Another popular channel was promoting his opponents. Berezovsky was controlling the channel. He took control before the elections..
Speaker A
For propaganda. For anti-NTV propaganda. NTV was promoting his opponents. This was anarchy. Many people disliked it.
Speaker A
Progressive people disliked it. Russian people could not understand what was going on. One channels says this, another channels says the opposite..
Speaker A
Was it good? It was bad. Nobody knew what was going on. Do you call him a nice guy because it wasn't a crime back then or because he was your friend?
Speaker A
He was my friend. I am sorry for him. He had a tragic life. He failed miserably.
Speaker A
Everyone betrayed him. I can show you his grave. I saw it. Did you? Venediktov showed me this picture.
Speaker A
You can't be honest when talking about your friends, can you? Why? I was his biggest opponent.
Speaker A
I would argue with him all the time. I was the only person who was honest to him.
Speaker A
The only person that he would apologize to.. He'd admit that he was wrong. I would get mad at him for all the delays.
Speaker A
I would use his jet when he was late. He paid for the jet and didn't arrive.
Speaker A
I flew without him. We were flying to France..He was late and he sent Abramovich to talk to me.
Speaker A
I talked to them while I waited for him. I waited for too long.. Did you realize what anecdotes were for?
Speaker A
They were giving Berezovsky extra time. Yes, we were waiting for him. They told me: you know that he's very busy.
Speaker A
You believe that Putin is always late because he copied it from Berezovsky. I don't know..
Speaker A
I don't know..I could see Voloshin on a sofa waiting for him for hours. Ministers would wait for hours to meet him.
Speaker A
I would never go to his mansion. I would never embarrass myself this way. I would come at 1 p.m. and people were still waiting for him since 9 a.m. They were sleeping on the sofa.
Speaker A
Or would I carry five cellphones with me? To talk to everyone. He was very disorganized.
Speaker A
You left Russia in 2009. Can you briefly tell us why? I left because they opened a criminal case against me.
Speaker A
They gave me a choice: I could do what Khodorkovsky did.. He refused to leave Russia. They gave him this choice, too.
Speaker A
..or I could do what Nevzlin did and leave. They accused you of tax crimes.
Speaker A
Yura, the accusation does not matter. They can choose anything. Formally, you were accused of tax crimes.
Speaker A
I don't know. I never went to the investigative committee. I just left. As soon as they took my company away from me they closed the case.
Speaker A
That's it. Who gave you this hint? I wouldn't get scared and leave. I had four young kids.
Speaker A
I hoped that I could come back one the case is settled. I felt like leaving Russia made sense.
Speaker A
Was I wrong? I don't know. Nowadays it seems like I did everything right. Who gave you this hint?
Speaker A
My brother and my ex-wife. My friends, too. People who already realized what this arising regime was about.
Speaker A
Khodorkovsky was offered to leave because they considered him a rival. They were scared that he would become a politician.
Speaker A
They offered him to leave and he refused. They sent him to prison and took away his company.
Speaker A
Why did they attack you? I wasn't involved in politics. However. Some Shalva Chigirinsky, a man from Georgia..
Speaker A
Was in control of Moscow petroleum market. What about 'us'? We are struggling! We can't compete with him because he controls the Refinery.
Speaker A
He controls everything, from logistics to storage. He is partnered with BP. He owns the best spots in the city.
Speaker A
He developed the best oil fields in Siberia together with Shell. Shalva, who did it to you?
Speaker A
Who didn't like it? Who wanted to steal it from you? Everyone. Rosneft, Gazpromneft, they bought the field stolen by Abramovich.
Speaker A
They were of losing to us in court. They would be held responsible for it.
Speaker A
You believe that.. They knew that this oil field was stolen from me and they bought it from Abramovich.
Speaker A
They bought the whole Sibneft company for 13 billion. Do you believe that the biggest oil industry companies conspired against you?
Speaker A
I was their prey. I was blind, I didn't see it coming. Smart people warned me and told me to be careful but I didn't listen.
Speaker A
I was focused on my projects. I could not imagine that my projects were so annoying for others.
Speaker A
Rossiya Hotel project was estimated at 8.5 billion dollars. It was estimated at 8.5 billion.
Speaker A
I won the tender..I had the best architect in the world, Foster. This was probably the best project in the world.
Speaker A
35 hectares in the center of Moscow. Do you suspect anyone specific? No, they did it together.
Speaker A
They all had enough power to get rid of people like me, Khodorkovsky, Chichvarkin, or..
Speaker A
The guy who had a bank.. Tinkov. They would get rid of us. Is it true that they could attack you because you split with Luzhkov?
Speaker A
I didn't split with him. I didn't know this, at least. I didn't know that I was being betrayed.
Speaker A
Who betrayed you? Elena. She did it to me. This wouldn't have happened without her and Luzhkov.
Speaker A
You wouldn't be attacked? If you want to dig deep..I can't explain this in a couple of minutes.
Speaker A
I will need lawyers to show you what they did to me. To take away my company.
Speaker A
Elena Baturina wanted to take away your joint companies. She wanted to take my mansion. She liked it.
Speaker A
This mansion here? Yes. She could not tell me this. When they took this mansion from me, someone else liked it.
Speaker A
Someone more powerful. Who was that? I guess, Kabayeva. I don't know how she got this mansion.
Speaker A
I haven't seen her there. In 2009 Yury Luzhkov was still a Mayor. He didn't defend you, did he?
Speaker A
I tried meeting him. Usually I would meet him after the first try. I would call his assistants..
Speaker A
I called them a few times and realized that he didn't want to see me.
Speaker A
How did you feel about it? Once again, he stayed loyal to his wife. This time he sacrificed me.
Speaker A
Many other people were sacrificed before me. He split with Zurab Tsereteli because of her.
Speaker A
Zurab Tseretali was an old friend of his. Kobzon, too. You were his close friends for many years. He would come to your house, your mansion..
Speaker A
Listen.. I loved him. I loved him dearly. What did you feel when he betrayed you?
Speaker A
I had a picture of him on my desk. I loved him. Russian officials now have a picture of Putin in their offices.
Speaker A
No, he was a really good man. Very kind man. Even my mother liked him.
Speaker A
He was a special person. He was different..I like hard-working people. Any hard-working people. I like anyone who likes to delve into the problem.
Speaker A
You could explain anything to Luzhkov. There are authorities who don't want to listen to you.
Speaker A
They think that they are always right. I managed to make Luzhkov change his mind many times.
Speaker A
Eventually he began to change. He believed that his wife was always right. It happened gradually and I saw it.
Speaker A
Sometimes they would have a fall out and I would help them make peace. How did I feel about this? It hit me.
Speaker A
It wasn't my first time. I'd been hit before. I am used to it. I survived.
Speaker A
I lost my business, my family.. My wife decided to sue me, which i found very offensive.
Speaker A
I split with my brother.. I had to experience it all. I won't brag and tell you that it was easy.
Speaker A
It wasn't easy. I was hurt. It was very, very hard for me. What else could I do? Give up?
Speaker A
My new wife helped me a lot. She saved me by giving her hand. I have found a new meaning in life.
Speaker A
I have found a soulmate. We have always been together since we met. I was being prosecuted in America. Not in Russia, in America!
Speaker A
She helped me. Friends who stayed with me helped me, too. Why did Luzhkov quit politics?
Speaker A
He didn't quit. He was forced to quit. Medvedev fired him in 2010. Why? I had already left. I can only guess now.
Speaker A
I feel like Luzhkov lost his power due to his wife's actions. She became the shadow Mayor of Moscow.
Speaker A
Nobody liked it. There was too much of her. Everyone was unhappy about it. Luzhkov was a wise man. He knew how to compromise.
Speaker A
She was straightforward. This is one of the reasons he got fired. After leaving Russia you built a hotel in New York.
Speaker A
Can you tell us how much you invested? And how much did you make? I haven't made anything yet. We haven't sold the hotel yet.
Speaker A
The interest rates are now too high. It's hard to sell real estate. The buyers would borrow many from banks. They don't want to pay a lot of interest.
Speaker A
The hotel is doing great. We have 97% of capacity booked. How much did it cost to build?
Speaker A
About 300 million. 280 million. The hotel is located at Manhattan.. Times Square. Oh..How many floors are there?
Speaker A
32 floors. I will send you a picture. A Russian entrepreneur decides to build a hotel at Times Square..
Speaker A
I wasn't a developer of this hotel. I was an investor. There is a group of investors..
Speaker A
There were five companies, including me. I might have the biggest share. I was a member of board of directors.
Speaker A
Of course, I took part in designing the hotel. Officially, the developer needs to work with all the permissions..
Speaker A
It's a lot of paper work. Especially, in such a risky location. Every millimeter counts at Times Square.
Speaker A
How much did you invest? Overall we bought the building for 63 million. There was an old building that you bought.
Speaker A
There was an old office building. It was outdated and it had asbestos in the walls.
Speaker A
Do you know what it is? This is an extremely toxic material that causes lung cancer.
Speaker A
We bought the building and isolated it from the city. And then you demolished it.
Speaker A
We kept it in a box when we demolished it. We had to keep asbestus inside this box.
Speaker A
Did the outside walls stay? No, we demolished the whole building. We had workers in uniforms who would deconstruct it. We could not blow this building up.
Speaker A
Usually buildings that don't have asbestus get blown up during a demolition. We had to deconstruct this building manually, which was costly.
Speaker A
Like a builder? Then we built the underground part and then Covid happened. During Covid we had to stop for some time.
Speaker A
We weren't able to ship some of our materials. Our hotel suffered from Covid. We opened the hotel after the Covid pandemic.
Speaker A
You paid 63 million to buy the old building. It means that other investors paid different amounts.
Speaker A
We all paid 63 million. And we borrowed the rest from banks. In America people always borrow money to build a house.
Speaker A
So the investors paid 63 million and borrow the rest. In total you spent 280 million..And you are going to sell this hotel for a higher price.
Speaker A
We can't sell it now because of high interest rates. The loans are too expensive.
Speaker A
We are waiting for Fed to cut the rates, just like Trump. How much does the hotel cost now?
Speaker A
It costs about 300 or 350 million. We wanted to sell it for 400 million but the loans are too expensive.
Speaker A
We decided to wait. Hotels need three to five years to go to full capacity.
Speaker A
And their price reaches peak. Who's now getting the profit? The investors? We're paying the loan back from the profit.
Speaker A
You're making money but you have to pay the loan back first. Yes. Whose idea was this?
Speaker A
I was the last investor to enter the project. They invited me as the last one.
Speaker A
The first payment was 7.5 million. And then we would pay more. I decided to join this project.
Speaker A
I requested to be a chairman. I wanted to take part in decision-making. I also have a right to veto.
Speaker A
I can give you an example.. The developer of this project is not as big as Trump.
Speaker A
He's a middle size developer. When we were working on the contract my employee had a conference call with him.
Speaker A
I entered the room and heard the developer saying: This Russian man is going to fall asleep at a chairman's meeting.
Speaker A
What is he going to do there? Has he built anything in his life? He was talking about me.
Speaker A
They don't care about what I did in Russia. Russia is a village for them.
Speaker A
Were you surprised? Of course, I was. I used to work with one of the best American developers. They wished to work with me.
Speaker A
They asked to work with me. And this guy didn't know me. It was offensive but funny.
Speaker A
Your net worth was estimated at 2.5 billion dollars by Forbes. It was. Was this an estimate of all your assets?
Speaker A
You know, Forbes is.. Were they close with their estimate? Were your assets worth more or less than that?
Speaker A
They can't have a precise estimate. They have a certain method of calculation. They sum up all the assets.
Speaker A
I think that you know a lot of reporters who used to work there. During my second visit to America we were filming The Shadows of Faberge documentary.
Speaker A
We were filming Forbes' collection and I met his son. This is how they estimate net worth.
Speaker A
Tesla shares have a certain price. Musk owns some amount of these shares. I don't believe that he can sell all of his shares for this price.
Speaker A
He'll have to sell with a discount. You can't sell all of your shares. The company will be worth nothing.
Speaker A
You can't sell your shares. Theoretically, you can. I get it. Bernard Arnault can't sell all of his shares.
Speaker A
LVMH will cost nothing without him. It makes sense. He can't sell his shares for a market price.
Speaker A
Theoretically, he can. Is this how they estimated your 2.5 billion of worth? I was a key person in my company. Do you know what this is?
Speaker A
A key person. The company would no longer exist if I sold my shares. It was mentioned in my contracts. I was the key person.
Speaker A
I could not fly in Aeroflot planes. Yes. Only British Airways? No, not only. In 1990s they didn't consider Aeroflot safe enough.
Speaker A
Aeroflot was very different in 1990s. I didn't mind it. The company bought me an armored vehicle.
Speaker A
Once a year I would go to a certain hospital in England for a check-up.
Speaker A
Wow. The company was spending money on me. Because this company would not exist without me.
Speaker A
So were you worth 2.5 billion? Yes. How much money do you have left? This is an inappropriate question.
Speaker A
I have one simple question.. Why would I tell you how much I have left?
Speaker A
This is a rude question. Do you have over a hundred million dollars? This is a rude question.
Speaker A
Okay. Theoretically, I do. If I manage to finish my projects - I might be worth over 100 million.
Speaker A
I'm still working on some projects. I can't relax and not do anything. Are you going to fly to America in your jet?
Speaker A
No, I'm no longer flying in jets. Are you going to fly in a business-class?
Speaker A
Yes, I am. In a regular flight. Air France. Air France or Delta. I used to have a jet that I used for business purposes.
Speaker A
My life consisted of business only. I had no private life. I would wake up at six in the morning.
Speaker A
I would exercise. Run on a treadmill, for example. And then I would spend an hour in a shower thinking about my day.
Speaker A
This is how I would make decisions. I would be the first one to come to office and the last one to leave.
Speaker A
I would have a business dinner every night. I did not rest. I never had a 24-day vacation. I never laid on a beach for days.
Speaker A
I could not read books or go to a restaurant with my wife. Since I built my first building and until I left Russia I worked almost every day.
Speaker A
Even when I traveled I always had to work. If I was flying somewhere I would always take some people on my plane to work.
Speaker A
I could fly anywhere anytime. I needed a jet to work. And I never paid for it. The company paid for it.
Speaker A
I don't even know how much it cost. The finance department paid for it. I would never carry any cash with me.
Speaker A
I would go to a restaurant and someone would pay for me. I didn't know how much they paid.
Speaker A
Did it affect you in a negative way? Of course, it did. It seems like you would become a little arrogant.
Speaker A
I could not stay alone. Two or three people would accompany me on my way to the restroom.
Speaker A
They would make sure that there was nobody else in the restroom. Literally? Yes. I had guards at my mansion.
Speaker A
It was a dangerous time, Yury. I can imagine. Can you imagine? I saw it.
Speaker A
People were getting shot. Or kidnapped. In 2022 you said: In Russia you can make money only if they let you do it.
Speaker A
Yes. Isn't this how you made money, too? No. They let you. I started making money in the Soviet Union.
Speaker A
I made money by working hard. I never stole anything. I never privatized any factories.
Speaker A
The oil fields that I bought were developed by me. Salym oil field that we developed with Shell became the most progressive oil field of 21st century.
Speaker A
They had a swimming pool and a kitchen there. We built the best gas station network in the world - BP.
Speaker A
The gas stations? Yes. I'm proud of it. What did I steal? It's not corruption. I never took anything from anyone.
Speaker A
I demolished the hotel - is this a robbery? You should thank me for it.
Speaker A
I started the demolition of Moskva hotel which could collapse any day. I didn't let Abramovich steal the Refinery.
Speaker A
I created a vertical integration from nothing. In an oil company. Would it be possible without your alliance with Resin, Baturina, and Luzhkov?
Speaker A
It wouldn't be possible without Luzhkov. But I didn't steal anything. I created everything. You said: In Russia you can only make money if they let you.
Speaker A
They let you make money. They let me make money and then they didn't. So this quote relates to you, as well.
Speaker A
Yes. There is no getting away from it. I'm not arguing with you. Do you know what would work best? Are you an idealist?
Speaker A
I am. You are an idealist. But there is nothing perfect in this world. In a perfect world we would stop the war.
Speaker A
We would give Ukraine their land back. We would apologize to them. We would try to make peace. We would try to save our country.
Speaker A
Our country is stuck in this war. We would try to save our brothers in Ukraine.
Speaker A
And save our people, too. Orthodox Christianity has split. It is a war between Slavic nations.
Speaker A
Have you ever thought it could happen? Russia fought for Serbia during WW1. We fought for our Slavic brothers.
Speaker A
This would be a perfect world. It's never going to happen, though. You're saying that the world is not perfect..
Speaker A
It's not perfect. Nobody can stop the war. These terrible things are happening in the 21st century.
Speaker A
We have AI and at the same time horrible things are happening. If you're an idealist you should like communism.
Speaker A
Communism works very well on paper. Everyone gets an equal share. It's not true. It doesn't work.
Speaker A
What do you think would be right? Building houses that I wanted to build was the right things for me.
Speaker A
Creating these unique projects that I did. And designing projects that I designed. At least.
Speaker A
At least I destroyed this monster in the capital of Russia. This hotel was a monster in the center of Moscow.
Speaker A
Can you imagine how hard it was to even think of it? I suggested to demolish it.
Speaker A
This was your goal and.. And to make money, of course. It changed the construction and the business environment in the city.
Speaker A
Foster's project would be a landmark for Moscow. The end justifies the means. It doesn't.
Speaker A
You've got to fight for it. If you succeed, you succeed. I didn't kill anyone. I did nothing wrong.
Speaker A
I won the competition fairly. It was a fair competition. You support Trump as a politician.
Speaker A
Compared to Democrats - I like him. I don't fully agree with him..But I feel like the Democrats are destroying America.
Speaker A
In my opinion. Don't you feel like America has become more authoritarian under Trump? What do you mean?
Speaker A
Is it right when the president decides what can be displayed at museums? He's trying to make decisions in a country where institutions usually make such decisions.
Speaker A
Is he trying or is he actually making these decisions? He's trying. He can't do it.
Speaker A
He won't do it. He can't rule the Fed. He is trying, though. How do you feel about it?
Speaker A
So what.. How do you feel about such policies? He said he would stop the war in one day.
Speaker A
This is what all politicians say. I want this, I want that.. He is unhappy with the Fed and the interest rates..
Speaker A
Okay.. How do you feel about him being careless with his promises? He promised to stop the war.
Speaker A
Did Obama fulfill any of his promises? I don't think Obama had so many promises.
Speaker A
It's not true. He gave a lot of promises. He promised to close the Guantanamo prison.
Speaker A
He didn't do it. He was drawing red lines in Syria. Shall I continue? Obama lied a lot.
Speaker A
I'm not defending Obama. He lied to everyone. We're talking about Trump now. You said..
Speaker A
I'm not trying to compare them. I asked you what you thought about Trump. A politician can say whatever he wants. He can't do whatever he wants.
Speaker A
American democracy allows him to say anything he wants. He can't do it, though. He doesn't have enough power.
Speaker A
They won't let him do anything. Wouldn't they? He can't fire the head of the Fed.
Speaker A
He can't do it. He doesn't like him - so what? What do you think about his relations with Putin?
Speaker A
He's toying with Putin. This is his method. Trump praises everyone. He praises everyone. He treats his opponents like women.
Speaker A
He's being kind to them with an intention.. What would he do next? And then he does it.
Speaker A
I don't want to think what you meant to say. I didn't say anything. Is he going to do it to Putin?
Speaker A
He sees that Putin is trying to fool him. He understands it clearly. Does he?
Speaker A
He is being fooled. Trump is a very experienced businessman. He's got an instinct of self-preservation.
Speaker A
What do you think? I don't know. Would he let some guy from Saint Petersburg fool him?
Speaker A
What do you think? He wouldn't. Trump is not losing anything now. He fulfilled his goals. Now Europe is paying for weapons.
Speaker A
Europe is now responsible for the war. Merkel was mocking him during his first term.
Speaker A
She said she wouldn't increase European military spendings. And she didn't. He said they didn't spend their 2% on military.
Speaker A
They were building tubes to buy natural gas from Russia. They became dependent on Russian gas.
Speaker A
And Merkel was mocking him. She said that Germany was interested in Russian gas. Now they have to pay for it.
Speaker A
There is a war next to them. They ignored what was happening in Russia. They didn't listen to Trump.
Speaker A
He told them to increase military spendings. To at least 2% that NATO agreed on.
Speaker A
They committed to it and didn't do it. United Europe was ruled by Merkelism. They were friendly with Putin.
Speaker A
They ignored all the dangers. They thought everything would be alright. Trump didn't think so.
Speaker A
The final question: you said you wanted to talk to a new generation. You want to figure out what your generation did wrong that resulted in current situation.
Speaker A
I didn't give any interviews because I didn't want to talk to people of my age.
Speaker A
We have quite similar views. It makes sense to me to talk to a person twice as young as me.
Speaker A
You see this world absolutely differently. Let's try to summarize what you did wrong. Me?
Speaker A
Your generation. What did I do wrong? I should have sold my business earlier. And left Russia.
Speaker A
How would this help me? It wouldn't. It would only help me. In terms of money.
Speaker A
It wouldn't help Russia at all. Elites leaving Russia never helped the country. This only made Russia weaker, poorer, dumber..
Speaker A
Less competitive. I don't know what's coming next for Russia. You can't lose your people for decades.
Speaker A
We are the gene pool of a population. We loved our country and we still love it.
Speaker A
We don't work on our country. They even think that we work against Russia. I'm sorry..How many lives were lost?
Speaker A
Many lives were saved when they left Russia. But many people died. Vavilov was killed.
Speaker A
Vavilov could feed the whole country. We talked about business merging with authorities. Isn't this a reason why we are here?
Speaker A
You said you invited Luzhkov and Baturina to your mansion. Did you realize you were doing something wrong when you invited them?
Speaker A
What's wrong about it? I was proud of this mansion. Nobody wanted to buy it..
Speaker A
I'm not talking about the mansion.. It became the best mansion because of me. A Mayor of a city where you were a developer stayed at your mansion.
Speaker A
I didn't think about it. Do you realize that it's wrong? I do. It is wrong.
Speaker A
It is wrong in a progressive society. Back then it wasn't wrong. Think about it.
Speaker A
You can't jump from one floor to another without a ladder. Some people can jump high enough and others would break their neck.
Speaker A
There has never been a leap from socialism to capitalism without a transition. It's never going to happen.
Speaker A
I can give you a simple example. Germany has been trying to accomodate 19 million from Eastern Germany for almost forty years.
Speaker A
People from Eastern Germany. These people lived under fascism for 12 or 13 years.. And then they lived 35-40 years under socialism.
Speaker A
45 years. Germany spent trillions of Marks.. Euro. First Marks, and then Euro. How far did they go?
Speaker A
Now they have a right-wing, almost fascist party. Alternative for Germany. Standards of living have decreased.
Speaker A
These people don't change. Even the new generation. Do you want Russia to change right after the genocide?
Speaker A
Classes of people were wiped out. They destroyed Russian population. Destroyed Orthodox Christianity. Merkel's father was a priest.
Speaker A
He was a pastor. And she became a Chancellor. Could this happen in Russia? We need more time.
Speaker A
Russia had to transition from one ideology to another. And we had to recover our nation.
Speaker A
We had to create millionaires and billionaires of new generations. Real reporters, real judges. Do you think a Soviet judge would become an fair judge in Russia?
Speaker A
They didn't know anything about private property disputes. They never lived in capitalism. Russia needed a Marshall plan.
Speaker A
Do you think this leap would happen naturally? It couldn't happen naturally. I wanted to destroy all the buildings that the communists built.
Speaker A
They couldn't design, couldn't build. They couldn't do anything. I wanted to get rid of all their buildings.
Speaker A
Moskva hotel would collapse without my help. But here we are now. We couldn't beat the gravity.
Speaker A
Putin got the energy from a dramatic increase in oil prices. The demand was high, everyone wanted to work in Russia.
Speaker A
Everyone. And we lost this opportunity. Is there also your fault? Indirectly - yes. Where?
Speaker A
My generation is to blame. We were wrong. I was a part of this environment.
Speaker A
It was us. Some more, some less. It was us. I could have told Luzhkov: don't come to my mansion, I don't want to see you.
Speaker A
I don't want to talk to you, this is wrong. And I wouldn't build anything.
Speaker A
I would either fit the environment or do nothing. The level of business that I was involved in required relations with the authorities in the city and the government.
Speaker A
I could not avoid this. They can't avoid it even in the US. Tim Cook talks to Trump, the Great Seven are all involved in politics.
Speaker A
Seven multi-trillion companies. These are no longer usual companies. America is known for its small and medium size businesses.
Speaker A
And they don't have to be friends with Trump. No. I worked in New York and I could call Bloomberg, whom I knew in person.
Speaker A
Bloomberg invited me to his house. I talked to him. But he would never help me.
Speaker A
You don't need a Mayor to make money in America. The Mayor can't help you get any extra micro-inch.
Speaker A
It's just not possible. When was the last time you've been to Russia? I haven't been to Russia since 2009.
Speaker A
Sixteen years. Do you miss Russia? Of course, I do. Is this hard for you?
Speaker A
It is. It's hard to be away from your homeland. I love Russian language. I love Russian literature.
Speaker A
I have a lot of Russian friends. Once I went to a restaurant with my wife.
Speaker A
We were speaking Russian and some people stood up and moved further from us. They sat further.
Speaker A
Was this after the war began? Yes. It didn't feel good at all. What if they were Russian, too?
Speaker A
They weren't Russian. No. I don't feel this in Monaco.. I can feel it in other countries.
Speaker A
They used to meet Russians with a lot of joy. Everyone was happy to see Russians.
Speaker A
Everything has changed a lot. Unfortunately. And Russian people are suffering because of us. We let this happen.
Speaker A
It happened in our lifetime. Not in your lifetime. It happened in our lifetime. What is your fault?
Speaker A
I probably didn't care enough. I don't know.. I knew these people. Khodorkovsky was a great businessman.
Speaker A
A very talented person and a leader. He could run a government or a company.
Speaker A
Mikhail Friedman is also a talented and educated man. Boris too. I don't know how we got here.
Speaker A
I don't know. It's a big question. Lermontov wrote: Hey tell, old man, had we a cause When Moscow, razed by fire, once was Given up to Frenchman's blow?
Speaker A
One generation asks another generation why was Moscow burned down. Why did you give up Moscow?
Speaker A
It was a right strategic move. I know, but still. The capital was on fire.
Speaker A
Our country is now on fire. Another country is one fire, too. This is not an alien country to us.
Speaker A
Ukrainians are not aliens to us, are they? I don't see any difference between us.
Speaker A
They are a different nation but we have a lot in common. I love Odessa, Kyiv, Melitopol, Mariupol.
Speaker A
This is a tragedy. A tragedy for me. We're now sitting in a foreign country. This is my personal tragedy.
Speaker A
And yours, too. It's not your fault. It is my fault because my generation did this.
Speaker A
My generation. Years later my generation would be judged for it. What have we done?
Speaker A
How did we end up in trenches? Millions of Russians and Ukrainians are buried in mass graves.
Speaker A
They fought together. Now they're fighting each other. How did we come to this? How?
Speaker A
You're 38, aren't you? Or 39? I'm 38. Imagine that twenty years ago someone told you about it..
Speaker A
I flew to New York a day before the war. We had a dinner with my American friends.
Speaker A
They told me that the war was about to begin. They knew it. Biden told everyone it would happen.
Speaker A
I turned on a TV on the next morning. I had a jet lag. I turned on TV at four in the morning..
Speaker A
And saw the tanks. People running and shooting. How can this be justified? I don't know how to justify this.
Speaker A
And the final question: what is power? Knowledge is power. Knowledge. When you have it you're strong.
Topics:Shalva ChigirinskyRussian businesscorruptionYury LuzhkovElena BaturinaVladimir PutinRussian oligarchspost-Soviet Russialuxury real estateVPN
