Interview with Bruce Levine — Transcript

We believe in drugs as a society and culture, and so into that kind of cultural framework, if psychiatry comes along and says that our drugs work and they're backed by huge amounts of money from pharmaceutical companies through funding of the American Psychiatric Association, through funding of the National Alliance for the Mentally Ill, through funding of their thought leaders, and so on, funding of psychiatric departments, so that they can create the image that they are a legitimate authority who has drugs that are safe, effective, and that are going to work.

association through funding of the National Alliance for the mentally ill through funding of their thought leaders um and so on funding of psychiatric departments um and so that they can create um the image that they are a legitimate Authority who has drugs that

Culturally, part of the terrifying thing, or it should be terrifying for our culture and our society, is that increasing numbers of children who are just behaving well within the range of normal child behavior are being pathologized or being medicalized.

behavior are being pathologized or being medicalized so there are several examples of this most obvious for me starting in 1980 with these Oppositional Defiant Disorder OD this sounds like you're pathologizing childhood you're pathologizing Rebellion adolescent resistance non-compliance this seems

So there are several examples of this. Most obvious for me, starting in 1980, with these Oppositional Defiant Disorder, ODD. This sounds like you're pathologizing childhood, you're pathologizing rebellion, adolescent resistance, non-compliance. This seems highly problematic.

these kids who are being put on anticho drugs are not psychotic but given our diagnoses of these disruptive behavioral disorders like oppositional defin disorder and you know something the more you talk about your problems the easier they are to solve it's bottling things

Archives of General Psychiatry a couple years back discovered that there's a sevenfold increase in children under 13 on antipsychotic drugs, Cakil, Risol, Zyprexa, these heavily tranquilizing drugs. And they discover that the majority of these kids, around 63% of these kids who are being put on antipsychotic drugs, are not psychotic but given our diagnoses of these disruptive behavioral disorders like oppositional defiant disorder.

create resentment and that these are normal phases especially in adolescence but also even younger for many of these kids that if you deal with them right you can strengthen family relationships when you're trying to coers a child coer

And you know something, the more you talk about your problems, the easier they are to solve. It's bottling things up inside that's bad, as opposed to what real helpers, a more legitimate mental health profession, would be helping parents to learn how you do form relationships where you can gain the level of respect in a way that you don't create resentment.

something who they weren't to be able to fit in more easily to create less tension in a family or in a society the legitimacy of psychiatry's uh process of how uh people are diagnosed um is being called into

And that these are normal phases, especially in adolescence, but also even younger for many of these kids, that if you deal with them right, you can strengthen family relationships.

pathologized that people who are mainstream establishment psychiatrist people like Thomas Insel director of the National Institute of Mental Health is saying said in 2013 we're not going to be using the DSM psychiatry's diagnostic Bible anymore in our research Alan

When you're trying to coerce a child, coerce a teenager to be something that they're not, and especially through the use of things like medication, where they feel like they were completely unloved and uncared about for who they were, they were being tried to be molded into something who they weren't to be able to fit in more easily, to create less tension in a family or in a society.

force a guy named Robert Spitzer also embarrassed that Psychiatry is no longer looking at the context of how these behaviors are happening just taking a look at symptoms and needlessly pathologizing so you're talking about three of the most major um establishment

The legitimacy of psychiatry's process of how people are diagnosed is being called into question in major ways.

have no value they're not valid and they're not reliable even if you believe in things like oppositional Define disorder it cannot be reliably diagnosed kids act differently with different people um there's no blood test there's no EEG there's nothing like that that

It's not any longer just people who are dissenting mental health professionals who are speaking out against mainstream psychiatry. Mainstream psychiatry itself realizes they have gone so far, especially with the more recent DSM-5, where grief itself is now being pathologized.

question the fact that anti-depressants don't seem to work in aggregate much better than Placebo sugar pills uh people have now delegitimized a lot of these biochemical imbalance theories it's more mainstream establishment psychiatry like Ronald peas um has talked about like well this stuff is

That people who are mainstream establishment psychiatrists, people like Thomas Insel, director of the National Institute of Mental Health, said in 2013, "We're not going to be using the DSM, psychiatry's diagnostic Bible, anymore in our research."

on many areas one aspect one prong of changing it all is getting across to the general public that even establishment Psychiatry figures are now embarrassed by the lack of Science and Psychiatry and it really has not a it is it is not

Alan Francis, who is the Task Force director of DSM-4, so embarrassed by this expansionism, this sort of imperialism of diagnosis, you know, making fun of psychiatry as just being a tool for drug companies.

on bases or and and and not only shooting others huge numbers of suicides happening out there more than are taking place in actual combat more deaths from suicides and combat so you have all these frightening terrifying things for

The chair of the DSM-3 Task Force, a guy named Robert Spitzer, also embarrassed that psychiatry is no longer looking at the context of how these behaviors are happening, just taking a look at symptoms and needlessly pathologizing.

that's the key word looking or appearing not really being a legitimate scientific Authority but having the capacity to sort of Market oneself sell oneself as an authority that could come in here and fix your problem um and so most people

So you're talking about three of the most major establishment psychiatry figures in the last 30 years. They are distancing themselves from the whole diagnostic procedure.

hospitalizations more coercive making people these people we can predict who are violent and we can control them so it doesn't happen all these things that are completely not true they're people are vulnerable because they're frightened and this is true in in in

So that's one aspect. To the extent that we can get across to the general public that in terms of these diagnoses themselves, they're illegitimate scientifically, they have no value, they're not valid, and they're not reliable.

they're talking about when they have a a long history a long track record of like almost getting nothing right okay um and so this is this is this is hard to do because the airwaves the media are controlled by people who have the most

Even if you believe in things like oppositional defiant disorder, it cannot be reliably diagnosed. Kids act differently with different people. There's no blood test, there's no EEG, there's nothing like that that stays consistent, and so their behaviors change.

enough of their drugs are being used out there that will certainly fix the problem you know take a look in the military for example one out of six of these soldiers are on some kind of psychiatric drug and we have huge

And so the questioning of the legitimacy of psychiatry's diagnostic procedures and the questioning of the effectiveness of their treatment, which a lot of more legit, more establishment psychiatrists and psychologists are willing to do nowadays, it's more mainstream to question the fact that antidepressants don't seem to work in aggregate much better than placebo sugar pills.

psychiatrically the case for example a high-profile case and Coline Eric Harris was on the drug loix anti-depressant was found in his bloodstream well the manufacturer of loix solve they admitted 4% of kids who were on these anti-depressant have a manic reaction

People have now delegitimized a lot of these biochemical imbalance theories. It's more mainstream establishment psychiatry like Ronald Pies has talked about, like, "Well, this stuff is just, we've always known it's urban legend that there is no biochemical brain imbalance theory."

amphetamine ADHD kind of drugs there's also a lot of these kids get manic off of that and so we know study after study that that you're going to take kids who have mild problems or moderate problems and in many cases okay and when you're

The major theory that, by the way, was used to sell all of these serotonin reuptake inhibitor type of drugs like Prozac, Paxil, Zoloft, and so on.

just have to work to get out there