Speaker A
Oh, look who we have here. There we go. How are you there? How are you, man? I'm good, man. How are you?
A detailed debate between Mohammed Hijab and GodLogic discussing Islamic and Christian apologetics, focusing on the Islamic dilemma argument.
Key Takeaways
- The Islamic dilemma is a central apologetic argument discussed in the debate.
- Interpretation of Quranic verses is contested, especially regarding Muhammad's doubt.
- Both debaters stress the importance of scripture and its authority in their arguments.
- The debate format allows for equal exchange of questions on Islam and Christianity.
- The discussion highlights the challenges of interfaith apologetics in a live format.
Summary
- Mohammed Hijab and GodLogic engage in a live debate on Islam and Christianity.
- The debate format involves taking turns asking questions about each other's faith.
- GodLogic presents the Islamic dilemma as a key argument against Islam.
- The Islamic dilemma centers on Quran 10:94, which suggests consulting previous scriptures if in doubt.
- Hijab challenges the interpretation of the verse, citing exegeses that Muhammad was never in doubt.
- The discussion includes the nature of doubt and the authority of previous scriptures over the Quran.
- Both participants emphasize their qualifications and experience in apologetics.
- The debate features interruptions and attempts to clarify arguments point-by-point.
- The tone is confrontational but also includes moments of humor and informal banter.
- The debate aims to critically analyze foundational theological claims in Islam and Christianity.
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
Oh, you finally come for the final boss, huh? You want to ask me the questions, huh?
Speaker A
I came for the champ, man. Questions? I came for the champ. I came for the champ.
Speaker A
Go ahead and ask me the questions that you want to ask. Sure. But before we continue, is it okay that I also raise your voice a bit? I can't hear you very well there.
Speaker A
Uh oh. Testing, testing. And we... Okay. Testing, testing. Yeah. Raise it a little bit higher.
Speaker A
All right. Let me... You look a bit nervous there, boy. Man, you know, big boy.
Speaker A
Big stage. You know what I'm saying? It's a big stage and a big opportunity.
Speaker A
This the champ, man. Oh, you been waiting like a good boy. You the Peters, you the people's champ, man.
Speaker A
You've been st... Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if you were getting your courage up or what. I don't know what it was, but I'm the giant.
Speaker A
Thank you. So, is it okay that I record this and put it on my channel?
Speaker A
Just want to get a verbal confirmation. We're good. Well, I mean, look, you can go live right now. I mean, I haven't got any issues with that myself.
Speaker A
You were live already. Yeah, I'm recording right now. So, I'm just making sure I can go live. Go live so that your people can see what's happening right now.
Speaker A
Oh. Oh, they will. So, I just want a verbal confirmation. You're not going to copyright strike me.
Speaker A
No, you're going to go live and it's absolutely fine. Okay, cool. All right. Awesome. All right. So, we're going live simultaneously right now, aren't we?
Speaker A
Just like the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are simultaneously gone. Are they?
Speaker A
This is a recording just like the Huffs and the Guri are all simultaneously the Quran.
Speaker A
Yeah, that's a nice segue. So, tell me now. This is a good way of doing it, Avery.
Speaker A
Okay. A good way of doing it is you ask me a question about Islam.
Speaker A
Yeah. And then we can go back and forth on that issue for some time and then I ask you a question about Christianity and we can go back and forth on that issue for it. So it's kind of equal.
Speaker A
Yeah. Sounds about right. Yeah. Fair enough. So I want you to do me the following. Avery, I want you in front of the people that are watching at home today.
Speaker A
Everybody watching at home, the Christians, the Muslims, the Jews, the Zionists, your friends, the Zionists, everybody. I want you to tell us what your strongest... I know you're unqualified.
Speaker A
No, no, it's okay. You're not qualified. You know, you don't have any formal qualifications. You don't have any degrees. You don't have any certificates. You don't have any diplomas. I understand all that. But I give you concession because I want you
Speaker A
to tell us your strongest argument against Islam. We're all ears. Avery. Nice. Thank you. I appreciate it, man.
Speaker A
Want to hear that one. Yeah. Yeah, man. I can't wait to give it. You know, from someone who's unqualified, no credentials, just a, you know, young kid who just, you know, did a lot of YouTube University. It says a
Speaker A
lot about... say, let's get that. I am, man. I am. You got to set it up.
Speaker A
Give us the nervous boy. I got nervous, aren't you? Go ahead. I got to set it up. Got to set it up.
Speaker A
You know, it says a lot for someone who's unqualified to do what I've done to the Dava squad and now you're just laughing.
Speaker A
Get on with it, mate. Get on with it, mate. So, so what I'm going to say is Muhammad Hijab is that the strongest, one of the strongest... I wouldn't even say it's the... but one of the strongest arguments that
Speaker A
I would like to use obviously would be the Islamic dilemma that you said is a easily refuted and disregarded argument.
Speaker A
Sure. So, I would like your challenge before we start. That's your strongest argument. This is the way to undo Islam.
Speaker A
The way to undo Islam is the Islamic dilemma. You've been in this apologetics game for a very long time. You believe this is the strongest argument. You believe that it's one of... I believe the strongest argument would be with most
Speaker A
moral character. Now, don't lose the confidence already. Tell us what's the strongest argument. Let's go for number one because we need to go down.
Speaker A
I want to use this. I want to use the Islamic dilemma. Can we stop wasting time and talk about it?
Speaker A
Of course you can. That's your strongest argument, right? All right. Mashah, let's do it.
Speaker A
Okay, go ahead and make your argument. All right. Thank you. So, I'm going to argue that from the Quran standpoint, it points to the previous scriptures as being authoritative over the Quran, meaning it's the standard of truth over
Speaker A
the Quran. Okay? And I'm going to use a few verses. We'll deal with one at a time. One of my favorite verses to use would be chapter 10, verse 94.
Speaker A
Yes. Okay. And so this is what it says. It says, "If you are in doubt," this is Allah speaking to Muhammad. "If you are in doubt about that which we have revealed to you, then go and ask those who have been
Speaker A
reading the scripture before you. Truly the truth has come to you from your Lord. So be not of those who doubt."
Speaker A
Sure. So let me ask you this, Avery. Have you seen any of the exegeses on this? Because it says if you're in doubt. I'm sure you're aware. I know you're not qualified, but you understand that a conditional if is a conditional.
Speaker A
If you are in doubt, that's the Arabic wording. If you were in doubt. If you look at the exegeses, they say he wasn't in doubt and he never asked. So, it's irrelevant. Next one, please.
Speaker A
Okay. So, notice since I'm unqualified, it's a shame I got to teach you the argument. I never... I assure you, my friend, there's no teaching going on here.
Speaker A
I got you, John. Just let me get it out. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. You said I can't even get it out, ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker A
You said one at a time. You said one at a time. Ten minutes. Yes. I'm trying to respond to what you said. This chapter number 10, verse 94.
Speaker A
Can I respond with you? Wait, are you interrupting me or you cut me off and now you're saying I'm interrupting you?
Speaker A
No, no, no, no, no. We're dealing with one at a time here. I know. So you made a second about I'm not doubting. Let me respond to that.
Speaker A
If you are in any doubt, the ones who were given the book before. So no, no. So now the exegeses say this is rhetorical. If conditional, you're in doubt then ask.
Speaker A
What's he supposed to do? Then they say he never was in doubt because the prophet was never in doubt and he never asked. He never asked in this capacity. That's it. Put that to the side.
Speaker A
Okay. No problem. So, thank you. I appreciate that. You... that was a waste of time. That's not my argument. My argument isn't that Muhammad was in doubt.
Speaker A
You're cutting me off again. This is the second time. Notice if you're not afraid of the argument. I'm unqualified.
Speaker A
Remember, I'm unqualified. With it, second verse, please. All right. I'm unqualified, ladies and gentlemen.
Speaker A
Just so, ladies and gentlemen, my argument is not in doubt. My argument is not that Muhammad was in doubt. My argument is what Allah tells him to do if he does doubt. Now, just to get this under clarity, would you agree that doubt means to be uncertain of the truth?
Speaker A
Yeah, that's... so if Muhammad conditional, granted, that's what the verse says. If he's uncertain about the truth of the Quran, what is he told to do by Allah?
Speaker A
Give ask the people who have been given the book before. Awesome. So if he goes and asks if he's uncertain about the truth of what the Quran is saying and he goes and asks those who've been reading the scripture before him, that's
Speaker A
supposed to help him gain certainty of the truth. If he sees that the Quran is in line with what they have. Correct.
Speaker A
Okay. Is that correct? If you are in doubt, it says if you are in doubt.
Speaker A
I don't know why you're smoking and grinning. I'm just having a good time, man.
Speaker A
I know. I know. Wait, hold on. Hold on. I know why he's smoking and grinning because...
Speaker A
I know. I know. Wait, hold on. Hold on. I know why he's smoking grinning because he's not used to being in class because he's never been in class.
Speaker A
Right. There's nothing funny about this matter. This is This is This is helping you, buddy. Look, look.
Speaker A
This is I know you're a bucktoothoth apologist and I know that you're you keep smirking and smiling. You think that this is going to get you somewhere.
Speaker A
It's not going to get you anywhere with Muhammad Hijab with a couple of other guys here and there.
Speaker A
Going to get you anywhere with Muhammad hijab because the fact is this. The fact is conditionals have been even proposed in the Quran about Allah taking a son.
Speaker A
If Allah wanted to take a son, he could have taken his. So the conditional here for the bucktooth apologist, you have failed to give us anything of substance at this point.
Speaker A
I'm just waiting on you. You're presenting the strongest argument against Islam. So please give us the strongest argument. Go on.
Speaker A
All right. Awesome. Thank you. So all of that slander and all that that doesn't work here. Not with me. You're going to have to actually deal with the argument.
Speaker A
So again, I'll ask the same question I just asked. You didn't answer. So here's the question again. Muhammad hijab. So if Muhammad is uncertain about the truth of the Quran in in this scenario that then he's supposed to go ahead when
Speaker A
he asks the people the book, right? You read the scripture before him. Let me let me land.
Speaker A
I got you. So when he when he when when he does that if the Quran is in line with what they have, then he'll be certain of the truth about what the Quran is saying. Right?
Speaker A
If he doubt. No, no, no, no, no, no. See, look, this is the problem. Okay? The the problem is when you haven't got a high school diploma and you try and use logical no this is the the fact is this. You don't
Speaker A
know what you're talking about. Nowhere does Hold on. Hold on. Nowhere does it say you've added and you've added an isog Jesus. You've added your own superical narrative onto the Quranic text. Nowhere does it say if the Quran is if if you're
Speaker A
in doubt then go and then it can be corrected by the people. Where does it say that?
Speaker A
Where does it say that? I don't know about I'll show you again. So when it says that if you are in doubt meaning which you already agreed to means to be uncertain of the truth of what the Quran
Speaker A
is saying. Okay. What he can do to get certainty of the truth of what the Quran is saying is asking the people who read the scripture before him.
Speaker A
It doesn't say any of that. It says oh it does you you confed that earlier.
Speaker A
No, no, no. You just read the verse as it is. Mhm. Go and ask the people before you. That's it. That's all it says.
Speaker A
But the question is, the question is, where's the argument here? So what? So what? What's your argument? Is this meant to unpin Islam? I don't see any threat. Where's the argument?
Speaker A
I got you. So, so, so again, so do you agree with the verse that in the case in the scenario that Muhammad doubts what the Quran is saying, has uncertainty about the what the Quran is saying that he can get certainty what he can get
Speaker A
certainty by asking the people who read the scripture before. Correct. Ask the people. That's what it says.
Speaker A
Yes. Ask the people. Yes. Ask the people is what the verse says. Go ahead.
Speaker A
Who've been doing what? Say again. Ask the people who what? The ones who have been given the book. There you go.
Speaker A
So in asking these people who read the scripture before him, he can then get certainty of whatever he doubted. Correct.
Speaker A
No, that's you've you've added that. See, look, you have to what? It's what the verse says. No, it doesn't say that. It says it doesn't say what do you call it? So you can get certainty. It doesn't say any of what
Speaker A
you're saying. The question is your argument. I'm trying to I'm I'm still finding I'm trying to find your argument. What was the argument is thereact you are. Okay.
Speaker A
Hijab, let me ask you this. Why is Allah Why what is what is this supposed to do for Muhammad if he's uncertain about what the Quran is saying by go and going to the people who read the scripture before him? What does that
Speaker A
do for him in this situation? How does that help? If this is your argument, do you is your argument the following?
Speaker A
Let's just be clear about this. Is your argument straightforward question, brother? No. No. Is your argument that you believe that the Quran affirms the Torah and the Injil the Bible that you have in your hands? That's not my argument right
Speaker A
now. My argument argument I said I got I said it in the beginning. I said that according to the Quran, the previous scriptures are the authority are the standard of truth over the Quran. And here's my verse to prove it.
Speaker A
Wait, who said that? Say that again. Who said that? Where does it say? I said that. This is my argument. Okay.
Speaker A
So, where does it say that in the Quran? I'm showing you. So, again with 1094, watch this. I I'm showing you. You got to engage though.
Speaker A
In 1094, it tells Muhammad if he is uncertain about what the Quran is saying.
Speaker A
Okay. How he can gain certainty. It doesn't say that he's okay. So then then help me out.
Speaker A
Why is he saying it? It doesn't say go and get gain certainty. It says just Hijab is talking about his doubts.
Speaker A
Yeah, I understand what you're saying, but what I'm saying to you is the exites have already explained that he never had that doubt and he never asked. So, it's irrelevant.
Speaker A
I get the same type of rhetoric. Have you got any other arguments? Because this is getting boring for the saying that it's getting boring because you can't even deal with the argument.
Speaker A
This is extreme. This is extremely boring argument. If it's so boring, you should be able to is what are you trying to say? Are you trying to say that the Bible according to us is preserved? Is that what I'm saying is I'll say it again
Speaker A
very clearly. Do you believe that we believe the Bible is preserved? Yes or no?
Speaker A
Do you believe that we believe the Bible is preserved? I got you. This will be my third time saying very clearly what I'm asking you the question. Do you believe that we believe the Bible is preserved? Yes or
Speaker A
I know you don't believe that. I know you don't believe that. What my point is that your beliefs go against Islam.
Speaker A
That's my point. Say again. What's the What's the point? Your beliefs go against the Quran. The Quran here. And I'll be very clear. My point the point that I'm proving and I want you to focus on is that the Quran points to the
Speaker A
previous scriptures as being the standard of truth. Well, if you're disagreeing with that, I need you to break this verse down for me and show me how I'm wrong.
Speaker A
Okay. Okay. Yes. We believe in the previous scriptures. Muslims believe in the previous scriptures. Muslims also believe that the scriptures that are in our hands today from the Jews and the Christians are corrupted. These two things we believe at the same time. We
Speaker A
believe that there was original scriptures that then got corrupted. Do you understand this point or not?
Speaker A
I trust me, I know your position. I know. If you understand this position, what's the what's the point here? Because if you believe that we believe that is corrupted, then you understand that there are aspects of the Bible now that
Speaker A
you have in your hands which could have their remnants back in that they go back to the actual and aspects of the Bible which don't. For example, the aspects that talk about Lot having sex with his daughters or the aspects that talk
Speaker A
about, you know, for example, Noah having the, you know, the the the three sons and seeing them in his nakedness and all these aspects which or that Aaron committed shik and polotheism or uh, you know, that Jesus commanded
Speaker A
according to 318 to this that and the other take the young girls for yourself.
Speaker A
All of these things are corrections the Quran came to correct. You see, so as I said to you before, the corrupt Bible that we have today, which there are different versions of, there's the New International Version, there's the
Speaker A
Revised Standard Version, there's the King James version, there's whatever version, different cannons, 66 books, 73 books, whatever. We don't believe that to be God, God's word. We don't believe 13 books of Paul are God's word. We don't believe in any of that. So where's
Speaker A
the argument going here? I don't see where the argument is going. Okay. So I I I'll break it down. You know, remember I'm unqualified. So I got to d I only talk in like dummy standards. Okay.
Speaker A
According to the Quran, the it points to the previous scriptures as being the standard of truth. Meaning if Muhammad is uncertain about what the Quran is relating, especially in regards to the previous prophets, the previous histories, their stories, and yada yada
Speaker A
yada. If Muhammad is in doubt, this is conditional. As you said, if he doubts what the Quran is saying on these matters, then he can get clarity on his doubts by going to the people who read the scripture before him and asking them
Speaker A
about these things. All right. So, so what? Right. Okay. So, it's saying that you can if you're in doubt, you can go to the people who the people who have been given the scripture before you. For example, some
Speaker A
Jews, some Christians. those Jews like no for example where the prophet sallallam went to a person who was a monotheistic Christian at the time and he asked them for questions you know this is a way to reassure himself maybe
Speaker A
he's in doubt or whatever it may be yes this is what the Quran says I want to understand what the issue is here do you what's the argument so here's the issue so thank you so we got we got past this
Speaker A
part so now since we both now understand that he can get clarity on whatever he might have been doubting just if in this in this case he can get clarity he can get clarity on the truth of what the
Speaker A
Quran is saying by going to the people of the book and what they're reading this means that if Muhammad if what he's receiving from the Quran matches what they tell him from the previous scriptures then that will clear up his
Speaker A
doubts if he had any regarding what the Quran's telling him correct okay let's go with it let's grant it yeah next yeah go on awesome so that would clear up his doubts if he saw that lined up Okay. So,
Speaker A
this means that the inverse is true. That if he doubted and went to them and they told him the opposite of what the Quran was saying, then this would actually verify his doubts and he wouldn't have good reason to trust what
Speaker A
the Quran is saying. Right? This is so weak. You have to understand how it called works. Maf is a is a principle in and it's a principle which is what is known in diametric opposition. Okay, it's not actually true
Speaker A
that if I say for example, okay, don't if you drink this hot tea then you will be u you will be in a position where you you have to go to the toilet. Okay, it doesn't mean that if I don't drink the
Speaker A
hot tea that I will definitely not go to the toilet, does it? So what you're saying is not by conditional. There's no reason for you to think it's by conditional that it works in a symmetrical manner. This is the the
Speaker A
weakness of Christian apologetics nowadays. You can't even think logically. The problem is you can't even actually think properly. And the and the issue is if you did propositional logic course 101 in school before you flunked out and did whatever you done. Yeah. If
Speaker A
you did that to be honest with you, you bucktooth apologist smiling again cuz he's been caught out once again. The point is if you understood how by conditionality works, how if one thing is happens the other thing, then you
Speaker A
wouldn't come with these weak arguments. Okay? There is nothing in the Quran that indicates or in the hadith that indicates that if the prophet Muhammad were to go to the Christian or the Jew and that if he were to correct him, he
Speaker A
would have to now uh go in line with what the Christian or the Jew SAID BECAUSE THE QURAN itself edits the Bible. It conscientiously corrects the Bible.
Speaker A
For example, in the Quran in the Quran in chapter 50 of the Quran, hold on. The Quran, the author is aware, is he not? My question to you, the author is aware, is he not in chapter 50 of the Quran where it says
Speaker A
that no tidness touched him when he created the heavens and the earth. He's aware of what what was said in Genesis chapter 1 and also in the book of Exodus where it says that God rested and he refreshed Naf. So clearly it's
Speaker A
correcting something in the Bible, correcting something in the hands of the Christians and the Jews. is correcting it. And that's why the Quran calls itself a muin. Muhe means the corrector.
Speaker A
It's the one that corrects it or mu and al it's the correct. So you're saying to me indicates that the opposite is true.
Speaker A
Then that must mean that you have no idea of the Quran. You have no idea of tap. You have no idea of what the scholars of Islam said. You have no idea of hadith. And that's what happens when
Speaker A
you put forward when the Christian pmical community put forward an individual who doesn't know the Arabic language who doesn't know who doesn't know Quran who doesn't know anything he's never learned Islamic studies in his life and you put him forward to
Speaker A
discuss things with me you came here too early you should have had a couple of other journeymen you should have gone to the street and spoke to the people the Quran actually says the opposite of what you're saying in speak bro
Speaker A
the the Quran says you lied upon the Quran by saying that the Quran is indicating that if how long you going to preach to me manuhammed if the prophet Muhammad were to go to a Christian and the Christian
Speaker A
corrects him then he must follow that the Quran says the opposite of that the Quran says that well which means trust me is a guardian is a is something which distinguishes between truth and falsehood sovereign over the over the
Speaker A
previous scriptures you're telling No, bro. What's going on? Is this a dialogue or not? You monologuing, preaching. Let me ask your next question because if this is your strongest argument, I don't see how it is.
Speaker A
Okay. So, you saying nuhuh. Nuh-uh is not a reputation of the argument. Let me even start. Let me start with your example. Get to the point. I'm at the point. Let me start with your example.
Speaker A
Remember, you spoke for the longest. So, please give me the same respect. You You said that if you drink this hot tea, if you say if you drink this hot tea, then you'll have to go to the bathroom.
Speaker A
doesn't necessarily mean that if you don't drink the hot tea that you won't necessarily have to go to the bathroom.
Speaker A
That's a false equivalence because in in the example in your phrase that you're saying that the the tea is going to cause you to go to the bathroom means that if you don't drink the tea then the tea is not going to cause you to go to
Speaker A
the bathroom. Look at you. Is this really what none of none of this is helping you? The nervous laughter is not going to get you out of there.
Speaker A
Stupid man you are. I got you. So, bro. So, so again, so again, according to the according to the passage, this is what you got, this is what you need to help me do.
Speaker A
Okay, I got you. So, this is what you need to help me do. Since you conceded, Since you conceded, Muhammad, since you conceded, next question, please. You conceded that Muhammad can get clarity on the uncertainty of what the Quran is saying by going to the
Speaker A
previous scriptures. You didn't. Now, brother, we're going to rewind your words and play it back in front of you.
Speaker A
You need to watch your clip back, dude. I'm saying you've never said this. You said it. You know, look, Avery, notice how you're interrupting me, man.
Speaker A
Why can't I speak? Avery Avery, hold on. Why can't I speak? Look, look, be fair. You're a Christian.
Speaker A
You got to let me get my argument out, man. Ha. You're meant to ah you conceded it earlier and now you're saying you never said that. We all saw it. All of us. Huh? You're meant to This is absolutely embarrassing. Nuhuh.
Speaker A
Nuhuh. Nu. One second. One second. You said clarity on what the Quran is saying. I never once said any of that. I never once said any of that. I never once said any of that. Yes, you did. Bro, now you're
Speaker A
lying up here. Remember, you're the qualified guy and you have to take back your words like this.
Speaker A
Okay. All right. I didn't say anything about clarity of what the Quran is saying. I didn't say clarity of the uncertain things the Quran is saying. I didn't say anything about that. Okay.
Speaker A
I've clearly said to you the position. The position is this. The position is the Quran says that it's a mu which means it's a guardian and it sives out it filters. It's a filter for the truth of now it's a guardian. I thought it was
Speaker A
hold on and how do you explain that please? How do you explain before you do the Muslim shuffle the hijab twostep?
Speaker A
First you need to do what you're arguing. The Quran says Muham if you know what Sure. I'll explain it.
Speaker A
The Quran. So it depends on your interpretation because you have some interpreters that interpreted that Muhammad that it was Muhammad who was a Muhammad over the Quran. And so then if you're going to be consistent then you're going to have to say that
Speaker A
Muhammad is an authority or corruptor over words of Allah. That's not what anyone said. No, no, no.
Speaker A
Muhammad and the Quran is Muhamm. Wait, hold on. The The Quran is al Muham. It's called Al Mu.
Speaker A
Would you like to see that say otherwise that say Muhammad's been the Muhammad? The Quran, the the verse is very clear that the Quran is the Muhamm.
Speaker A
Now, to everybody, to some of your scholars, they said Muhammad is the Muhammad. See, look, you're having to lie now.
Speaker A
This is quite pathetic. Do you want me to show you? Can I share my screen?
Speaker A
No, no, no. You don't need to share anything. You're wasting. Don't waste. What are you laughing at? It's the Quran's called the Quran. Okay. You don't like Muhammad. You don't like Muhammad. Okay. Oh man. This is a joy.
Speaker A
What are you laughing at? What you laughing at? I get I'm let you know. I got the same skill set on my everyday Monday, Wednesday, Friday stream.
Speaker A
You're no different than the everyday Muslim. What does mean? What does means criterion? Okay. So, what does it mean?
Speaker A
What a standard of truth that tells you what's RIGHT AND WHAT'S WRONG. THERE WE GO. THERE YOU GO.
Speaker A
GUESS WHAT? GUESS WHAT? GUESS WHAT? THE QURAN SAYS THE TORAH IS ALAN. THE TORAH IS ALREAN.
Speaker A
22:28 the Torah is alan. Muhammad. I can't even hear what you're saying. I can't hear it. Tell me something else.
Speaker A
I just said I just said that according to your Quran, the Torah is alan. In chapter 21:48 and in chapter 2:53, the Torah is alan.
Speaker A
So what do you got to say ABOUT THAT? THE TORAH IS THE QURAN OR NOT? IS the Quran for or not? Is it?
Speaker A
Yes. So is the Torah. So is the Torah? Yes. So is the Torah in its own right.
Speaker A
By the way, yes. So is the Torah. Correct. Hold on. Wait. Is that correct? The Torah is also for chapter 25. Yeah. It doesn't say the Torah. It says I just said chapter 21:48. It says that we gave Moses and
Speaker A
Aaron the scripture and the criterion, right? That's true. That's true. That's true. I know it's true. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Can't both be true. You waking me up. What was given to Aaron and Hold on. Hold on.
Speaker A
So, what was given to Aaron was a right. Say it again. Look at me.
Speaker A
Yeah. Aaron and given to dress for the occasion. I'm getting my getting messy. Hold on.
Speaker A
Is what was given to Are you okay? Is what's this guy doing? Get out of here. You want You want to throw the towel? You want to throw the towel, boy? You want to throw the towel?
Speaker A
Oh, come on. I need to dress. It works. It works for the occasion. Work.
Speaker A
It's Sit down. Sit down. Sit down. I need to dress for the occasion. He needs to do this. He needs to do this, doesn't he?
Speaker A
He's getting agitated. I need to I need to dress for the occasion man. Okay.
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Okay. All right. So, now here's the question. Here's here's the question, too. Are we done with Are we Are we Are we done with your logic? Are we done with your dile?
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Dilemma. Uh, no. You haven't you haven't dealt with it yet. You just said an answer.
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What do you want to ask me now? Okay. So, so, so continuing with the argument because you said you never said this. You said you never said this. So, I'm going to make you say it again.
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What's your question? What's your question? I'm about to give it to you. I'm about to give it to you.
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I'm about to give it to What's your question? What's your question? All right. So, when Allah tells Muhammad, Uhhuh. If you are in doubt about what we have revealed to you, if you're uncertain about the truth about what we revealed to you,
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question like four or five times, right? Because you keep flip-flopping like flip. You asked this question like four or five times, haven't you?
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Because you keep saying you said it and you didn't say it. The religion of yes, no yes.
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You understand? You understand that the Quran is referred to as and okay? You can't get away from that. Okay? Which means it's the criterion. All right. You said it's the criterion. You understand that the Quran is a criterion over the
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prediction. You understand? You understand that when prophet Muhammad wasallam reading aspects of the Torah, he told them that you have been given something you don't need to read this which is the Quran.
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Say that again. Are you say that again? You want me to say that one more time?
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Yeah, please. When when the prophet Muhammad wasallam saw Omar Katab reading aspects of the Tawat of the time which were preserved, some aspects were preserved and he was reading it, he said that you've been given something which replaces this. So
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the point is the point is this the prophet wasallam mentioned yeah in aith you know this hadith do not bely them and do not believe them about the people of the past do not believe them and do not bely them
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do you know this hadith in bkari yes so what what does he say so so so hold on there are aspects of no aspect of these let me finish let me finish what I'm saying finish the hadith Let me explain to you.
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And no, finish the last line. You're skipping a line. That'sithith English. Do not bel do not bel them and do not believe them. You can speak of Israel B is Yeah. with no issues. No, that's not what he says. That's not what
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he says. Okay, let me let me teach you. He says, man, I got you.
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This means do not be them and do not believe them. Which means that there's aspects of what's in circulation.
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This is why this is important. I got you. He says, "Do not believe them nor disbelieve them, but say we have we believe in what was revealed to us and what is revealed to you." You just read it, didn't you?
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The point I'm making is am I correct? Do not believe them. Do not bel them. So the issue is this.
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So what are they supposed to say? Yeah. Yeah. And tell them that we've believed in what was revealed to Abraham and Jacob and Isaac etc. in the Quran.
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It's mentioned. So he you're supposed to believe in what you have. Corrective. He recites.
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You're caught lying on your own hadith. So say again. You're caught lying and misquing your own hadith. I have to teach you what your What are you talking about, man? Are you stupid?
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The Quran says that the hadith says that don't bely them and don't believe them.
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Which means that there's something in circulation. There is something in circulation from which is you may remain agnostic about.
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If the Quran contradicts it, then the Quran takes precedence. That's why never said that they didn't kill him, they didn't crucify, but it was made to appear.
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Clearly, it's correcting something, isn't it, in the New Testament? Let let me touch on this because you're messing up your mind.
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Is the Quran correcting the New Testament? It is not. And guess what? Muhammad correcting the New Testament.
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Is the Quran correcting the New Testament? Question. Let me answer. The answer is the answer is no. And Muhammad never ever ever says that the Quran is correcting the previous scripture. In fact, I'm saying correcting. Wait, hold on.
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Let you let me finish man. Let me ask you the question first. Let me ask you the question.
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You trying to jump out the rest. When the Quran says Stop trying to jump. It's not like the rest, man. Stay in there.
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Hold on for a second, Avery. Otherwise, we can't we can't speak over each other.
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Let me ask you. You're speaking over me. I You're not letting me speak. I just let you finish and ask me a question. You didn't even let me finish my answer.
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Let me Let me tell you. Let me ask you a question. Let me ask you.
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So, you're about to ask and let me speak. Correct. You're going to You're going to give me an answer. to ask you the question, right?
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So, can I qualify my answer though? Can you let me ask you the question so you can answer?
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Of course, but I want to know if I short. Let me ask you the question. Don't be too scared. Don't be worried. Don't be nervous. I know.
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You must be scared because you don't even let me ask. It doesn't work on me. Are you Can you Can you assure me that when Can you assure me that I will be allowed to answer you?
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Let me ask you the question. Let me just ask you the question. Will you allow me to answer the question? Let me ask you the question. Let me ask you the question.
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So, I'm going to answer in phone when you ask. Go ahead. Okay. So, you're not letting me say anything? Yeah, I'm letting you go. I'm just saying I'm going to answer in full.
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When the Quran says, yeah, that no weariness touched God that Allah he created the heavens and the earth and no weariness touched him. Yeah. Is that a correction of the Genesis and Exodus narrative or not? Yes or no? Is it
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correcting what's in the hands of the Bible or not? Is it correcting or not?
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I'm gonna answer you in full. The answer is no. It is not a correction. No, it is not a correction. The Bible doesn't even teach tiredness. Notice how it doesn't even teach that tiredness touched God.
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In fact, it talks about him ceasing working on the seventh day. Not that he was actually tired. So, if you knew your own if you knew your own know that there's a verse allowing me to answer, you must be
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scared boy. You must be scared, boy. Let me finish. Let's go back to the hadith that you are referring to. Hold on. Hold on. It says, "Don't believe what they say, nor disbelieve what they say. This is what you respond to.
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Why you changing the subject? We believe." Let me finish. Why you changing the subject?
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No, you're the one who changed the subject. You brought THIS UP. YOU DID. HOLD ON. Hold on. Hold on.
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You brought this up, but now you're getting screwed. Now you're getting Why you running? Why you running? says, "Say believe in what was revealed to us." Avery, what was revealed to you? Avery, listen.
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So, hold on. Are you supposed to believe what are you going to listen or not?
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No. Are you going to listen? I already listened to you. Are you so answer the question?
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Let me let me let me tell you what was to me. Let me tell you what I'm saying and then you can say what you want to say.
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You said that. Let me speak, man. Just give me 20 seconds again. If you It's not a dialogue. If if we can't speak to each other, you're the only one speaking over me.
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Hijab, if you let me speak for 20 seconds, then you can respond for 20 seconds.
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Otherwise, you're trying to you get it. Okay. So, what I'm trying to say is that in the book of Genesis, it's mentioned, yeah, that God rested. However, in the book of Exodus, chapter number 31 verse number 17, okay, in that verse, the word
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is that he not only rested, but he refreshed. And the Hebrew word is nafash. So here clearly in the Old Testament corpus you have this idea of God actually literally resting. If you find if you look at all of the the the
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the the rabbitical commentary about that it's an actual rest. So the point is this you're saying when the Quran says in chapter number 50 in that it's not correcting this. So what is it correcting then? Why is it mentioning
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that? All right. So again, um the the author of the Quran is actually unfamiliar with what is in the Bible. He only goes by word of no.
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So notice you said that I can speak. Notice how you said I can speak. I let you speak. Unin Okay, go ahead.
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I already answered you. No, it is not a correction. Muhammad is ignorant of what is in the previous scriptures and he's only going by word of mouth. Here's an example. The example is what you brought up in the hadith that you had no idea
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about. The hadith says that you're referring to it says that the Jews used to recite the Torah in Hebrew and then explain it in Arabic.
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Okay. So before let me finish this one. Let me finish. Let me finish. Okay.
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Go on. Speak. I appreciate it. So according to the hadith that you brought up, it destroys you because it shows that they're hearing by word of mouth. They're having the Torah explained to them in Arabic by some of the Jews. Then in response,
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Muhammad says, "Don't believe what they say, nor disbelieve what they say, but in response say,"We believe in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to you." So they can't trust the Jews on if they're lying or not of what their
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scriptures say because they don't know it. They don't know the scriptures themselves. They're only going by word of mouth. So Muhammad is not correcting nothing. He's ignorant of the scriptures.
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Okay. So I've let you speak. Is it my time to respond? Thank you. I appreciate it. Finally.
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Yeah. Fine. By the way, don't forget that Muhammad point because I want I'm going to show you that Mujah is the one that said that Muhammad was the Muhammad over the Quran. Give me a second.
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Let me speak. Let me respond. I've given you one example. Okay, one example is in the book of Exodus, chapter number 31 and the book of Genesis, chapter number one, there's this idea of rest. Now, you can say
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Genesis is not rest is ceasing to work, but you can't say that with the book of Exodus. And therefore, the Quran says in more than one occasion, by the way, it actually says this many times inah it mentions
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in chapter 46 in chapter number 50 it mentions that no no wein has touched him no the tide has touched him so clearly there's a correction going on but you don't want to believe that no problem the Quran says
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the Quran clearly is responding to a biblical narrative it's clearly responding to a Christian narrative saying they did not kill him they did not crucify him it was made to appear as if they So the question is this is the Quran with this
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verse is it aware of what is being said by Christians is this correct that they say that he he was killed and crucified is that correct representation and is it then correcting that or not? Yes or no?
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Beautiful. So now I get to fully answer. So this is what you're this is notice the difference. The answer is yes.
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Here's a quick answer to yes. Yes. It is correcting what people say, "Yeah, now we're talking." is correcting what they say, not what the scriptures say, but the Christians and the Jews. So, notice how notice how Let me Let me
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land. I let you speak uninterrupted. Right. So, thank you. I appreciate it. So, notice the difference. At first, you were arguing that Muhammad is aware of what the scripture says and is correcting the scripture, not just what the Jews and Christians say. But you
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just changed your question to is Muhammad aware of what the Christians say and is therefore correcting what the Christians say. And the answer to that is yes. Unbeknownst to him that what they are saying is actually in the in
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the gospel. So Muhammad is going against the Christians unknowingly going against the gospel. And here's the point. This is why. Hold on. Let keep talking. Actually I appreciate it.
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I didn't realize this, but I didn't realize this actually. Please keep talking. Keep talking.
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Oh, thank you. That's good. So, what you're going to have to deal Thank you.
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So, this is what you're going to have to deal with. What you're going to have to deal with is Muhammad commanding you not to just not to believe what we say or disbelieve what we say. Notice he never
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goes against the scripture. Show me anywhere anywhere where Muhammad says, "Don't believe in what the scripture says." Man, what are you talking? Tell me one time where mom said Avery, let's go back to the point.
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This is the point. Please answer. Avery, hold on. This is what you said. You said that it was a correction. Okay.
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It was a correction. You You admitted you actually I'm surprised and I have to I have to commend you actually.
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Yeah. I thought you'd be a belligerent young man. Okay. I thought, you know, you put on the hat. You put I have to say you're better than I thought you'd be. You're better than I thought. I'm humble chef.
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You you do you you do have a future in in in content creation and in in influencing.
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You do have a future this and you you know what there's some I'm starting to like him.
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Yeah. Starting to like something. Yeah. He's got some he's got some good qualities. But just that's usually the effect I have on people because don't just smile like that because you look like a buck buck to uh we're just having a we're having we're
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having a good time. This is a I'm a humble chef. I like to cook giant.
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Okay. Whatever. Let me just say this to you right? The point I'm making to you is is is this. You have just admitted when the Quran says, "Yeah, that I didn't say anything." No, no, no. Let me finish what I'm
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saying. Let me finish. But you just misrepresented me. I never said about anything. I didn't even say I didn't even say anything yet.
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Yes, you did. You said that what I admitted that what the Quran says I never said anything about what the Quran says. We're talking about what Muhammad said pertains to. You haven't finished my sentence, so you would not you couldn't have known what
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I'm saying. Go ahead, bro. I said when the Quran when the Quran said they did not kill him, they did not crucify him. Where it was made to appear to them that that was the case. Yeah.
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You admitted that that was what you thought was a correction of Muhammad of the Christian community, but you thought he didn't know what's in the New Testament. Okay. He didn't know what's in the New Testament, yet it's still a
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correction somehow. The point is, is the crucifixion mentioned in the New Testament? Yes, the crucifixion is without a doubt mentioned in the New Testament and it's mentioned multiple times in multiple reports. It says in the Quran that it was made to appear to
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them that it was the case, it didn't really happen. This is a correction of the Quran which shows the author of the Quran whether you believe it's the prophet Muhammad or we believe it's Allah. The author of the Quran was fully
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aware of what was in that book and he was fully aware what was in circulation with Christians and Jews. And not only did he reject it, he corrected it. Is that true or is that false? False again.
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So I don't know I don't know how many times you want me to answer this for you. Hijab I don't know how many times you want me to answer this. I I'll break it down. And remember, I'm going to
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break it down in in unqualified terms and maybe this will help you out. What we're talking about is what Muhammad is saying regarding what the people say, not the scriptures. So when the Quran says, "Oh, uh, they, this is the
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example, for their boasting, for their boasting, we killed the Messiah. We killed the Hold on a second.
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For their boasting, this is chapter four about the crucifixion verse. For their boasting, they say, "We killed the Messiah, son of son of uh son of Mary." Notice this. Can you please listen? I need you to pay attention this time so
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you can learn this. The Quran is addressing what people are saying. It's never addressing what the scriptures themselves say.
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Why? Because Muhammad didn't know. Because he was ignorant. What you need to do, hijab, what you need to This is what I need to do. This is what I need you to do. I've got a question.
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I need you to Let me finish. I've got a I've got a question for you.
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I've got an honest question. Ask it after I'm done. I've got a question for you on this point. I've got a question for you.
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Please ask it after I'm done. No, ask it after 20 seconds. Should I give you 20 seconds?
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No, I need more time than that cuz you didn't have like 15 seconds. Let me speak. When I when I finish, I'm good.
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Okay. Okay. I appreciate it. So, we're talking about what they say, not what the scriptures say. What you would need to do for me, hijab, is give me any hadith. You got thousands to pick from. Give me any hadith where
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Muhammad talks about or discredits what the scriptures say, not what the people say. That's number one. Number two, what I would like for you to do is show me where the Quran said uh critiques what the scripture says. It says this is in
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the scripture and then it and then it goes on to correct or address what the scripture says uh and says that that's wrong. Okay. Don't show me cuz this is all we have over a couple things. I promise I'm about to land.
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Okay. What we have in the Quran and from Muhammad, Muhammad says in jammy altern are with the Jews and the Christians.
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What the Quran says in chapter 2 verse 41, chapter 2 verse 89, chapter 2 verse 91, chapter 4 vers7 vers 101, it says the Quran is confirming what is with them. Never do we ever see one unambiguous statement.
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Okay, beautiful unequivocal verse where the Quran is correcting the previous scriptures textually. Beautiful. So let me let me respond.
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Speak anything hadith or Quran? I've already mentioned to you before and I don't know if you got this point.
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Yeah. Does the Quran mention that that's in the scripture? You know, have you spoken? Have I let you speak?
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You did interrupt me a little bit. Okay. So, is it my turn now to can I respond?
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Yeah, sure. If you can answer that, if you can answer my question directly. So, yeah, the point is yes or no.
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I made this point to the your previous the previous guest that we had. When I was saying that whenever the Quran mentions for example the probably the clearest verse is in I'll help you with it.
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Yeah. Which is that they see the prophet mentioned with them. Okay. With them. So it indicates there's something going on with them that they have something with them. Right.
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The in the Torah says explicitly. Yeah. So it's Torah and Injil. There's an aspect of that which is with them.
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Now the question is this. What does it say? Is it Can I Can I finish? I didn't I didn't know we were butchering texts.
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Okay. Butchering texts. I'll explain to you why it's not butchering text cuz this is things I've learned when I was in university when I was doing the Azar degree.
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You learned it from Orthodox Muslim. Nice. No, no, no. I No. I learned this what I'm going to tell you now. An orthodox Muslim did teach me a few things as well. Actually, we were sitting down.
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See, I'm starting to like this guy. Yeah. I'm starting like this guy. You kind of humble man.
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What do you mean? Orthodox Muslim is my guy, brother. He's he's our guy, brother.
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I'm happy. I think I have a problem with a with a with a person who has I'm happy you can admit that you think I care about that.
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Yeah. So where in the text does it say in our religion we we we take knowledge from whoever in fact so where does it say that someone who is two people don't learn you're one of them by the way
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which one of them is a shy person the other one's the arrogant person. So let me tell you this.
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Oh so you're the arrogant person. There's two people who don't like learn is it but you just described yourself.
Speaker A
Sure. Sure. Maybe you're right about that. Actually, you're probably right. Okay, putting that to the side for now.
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Let me ask let me tell you this. What I learned when I was in university was that there's a principle called Yeah. which is that using the whole to refer to a part of a thing. So, for example, yeah, in the Quran in chapter
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12, it says ask the town. Okay. Ask the town. What it means to say is ask the people of the town. But this is a rhetorical device that's mentioned. Mhm.
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So the whole town is represented by the part of the town is represented by the whole of the object. Number one. Number two in the Quran it says in chapter 71 that they put their fingers in their ears. Right now they don't put their
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entire fingers in their ears. They put a part of the fingers in the ears. So the the point the point is in English you call this part Tatum propartum. Yeah. Tatum propum which is the idea of using a gen general
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statement to talk about a whole of a thing. So if I say the United States won the match or if I say that England won the match doesn't mean every single person in the country won the match. So
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the point is this this principle super extends to all of those instances in the Quran where it indicates that okay it speaks in generic terms. when it says or or any of those terms meaning with them it indicates a part of those things
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not the whole of the thing okay so unless you're able to undo this principle which is a principle not just in Arabic linguistics but in all of the languages in the world actually including English yeah then you don't
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have a case unfortunately as I said the the scholars of Islam people like they have made it very clear that they believe that what's in with the Christians and the Jews today is corrupt That is which scholars? Which scholars?
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I said in he mentions that we and our friends he says this that me and our friends say that what's in the hands of the the Christians is it is it is distorted textually.
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That's what I can you show us the reference. Yeah, it's in I can pull it up for you.
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I can't right now. I'm drinking my tea. I'm sitting down. You can find it. You think I'd lied to you about that or online people. You've been lying the whole time.
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This is uncontroversial. Avery, this is I'm let me show you why it's controversial. No, I know there are some corrupted.
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I know there are some scholars who didn't BELIEVE THAT. I KNOW. YEAH, I KNOW THAT. I know there are some scholars. And see, I'm loving your honesty. So, there's some scholars who believe in sexual corruption and there are some scholars who believe in
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wholesale preservation. That's beautiful. Good job. Good job. You don't believe in Let me tell you this. So Iban Tamir believed in the following. He didn't believe in wholesome preservation. He believed that he compared in his what do you call he
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had a whole book called the uh correct response to the Jews and the Christians.
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Yeah. And in this book basically he says this he says the similitude of the Bible okay is like the similitude of the weak hadith. Okay. So we we treat the Bible like we treat weak hadith. And that's considered to be a strong version. What
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does Okay. Huh? What does Bkari say? Abkari there's a difference of opinion about him. Like so for example Haj who obviously is interpreting Albkari because fat is an interpretation of Bkari. Yeah says that al Bkari has this view which indicates
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that they may have had some kind of preserved text at the time. Okay. He indicates may have say may have says they definitely says that. I don't think he says that. I don't he's unsure about it.
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But what I'm saying to you is that you can interpret Bkari maybe like that.
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Yeah, you can. But what I'm saying to you is, huh, Bkari, that's what he says.
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Some scholars of Islam might have believed in this. I'm not negating this point that the Jews and Christians at the time of the prophet had some kind of preserved text. Some means that our position is is completely Islamic that
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the scriptures are uncorrupt scholars of Islam, some scholars, classical scholars of Islam might have believed that as I said, yeah, of I have to be intellectually honest. What do you think? Uh I'm being I'm intellectually honest earlier.
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The point I'm making to you is the point I'm making to you is this.
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It's very clear that the scholars the overwhelming vast majority of Muslim scholars believed that what's in the hands of the Christians and the Jews is corrupt. That is clear.
Speaker A
You said majority the overwhelming vast majority of the early Muslims, pardon, of the early Muslims.
Speaker A
Sorry, of the early Muslims. The overwhelming vast majority of classical scholars throughout the medieval period throughout the early scholars the like Hassam had a very staunch view. He he what do you call it?
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He wro in the fourth century the fifth century he believed that it's like toilet paper. It's like nothing. He believed the Bible of the of the time of his people were was very is distorted.
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That's what he believed. What is your what is your evidence that the majority of the early scholars of Islam believe that the previous scriptures were my evidence is what Kalani mentions in fatal where he said that our Bkari says something else
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is interpreting in Bkari he's the number one person who interprets Bkari in the world in the history of Bkari explicitly says you asked me to give you a reference I'm giving you one of the most premier and gold standard references in Islam you
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don't know it you you don't when was the born when we went to that mean all of that is a relevant you don't know these people you don't know these that's the thing you don't know these people you don't know these
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things you don't know these things we know Bkari don't you don't you know Bkari but you that's all you know yeah he's calling him abas yeah yeah Abbas doesn't say anything about this you're all over the place you're over
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the place I know I know the the hadith in Bkari about Abbas I know nice there and it's actually against that hadith is against you. But the point I'm making to this, okay, the hadith is against you. But let's
Speaker A
stop going for it is it's simple. It's simple. The overwhelming vast majority of Muslim scholars from the classical period until now believe that this Bible that we have in our hands is correct.
Speaker A
Show me that. Don't just say that. And the the reference of that reference and the reference of that is show us brother you you can't be making what you mean show you I don't mean you got all those books behind you
Speaker A
you don't got a a reference you don't got the source that you show with me in this uh house this is quite pathetic you're asking me to go and get you a uh I'm asking you to provide evidence for
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what you're saying not just claiming it cuz I can't trust anything you're saying well we can get someone from the from the from the chats to get it it's in fact and it starts like this Like I remember I memorized the first part.
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He says that the majority of this I memorized the first parts of what this is the best you're going to get. And for me to even memorize Yeah. This is surprising that some of our friends meaning when he
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says our friends he means the what is in the hands all of our friends.
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Yeah. what is in the hands of the day the Jews and the Christians is corrupted and he mentions what kind of he goes on to say he goes on to say it's altered and corrupted from a textual perspective
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you want to see that because according to other scholars as you already agree they don't hold that position they don't hold that I don't know what to do for you right now I just I appreciate let me fine
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You just spoke for a long time and respond. Goodness. So you don't know about this.
Speaker A
Just as you agree that there's other scholars, there's the other side of Islamic scholarship that disagree with that position which and you're saying some of he says some of our friends where they believe in wholesale preservation of the scriptures and they
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quote verses the same verses that we use today that none can alter the words of Allah. They they even use the hadith that a lot of Muslims today try to say is is not authentic Abu Dh49 where Muhammad puts the Torah in the judgment
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seat. They use these arguments to substantiate. Right. Yeah. Yeah. That says that you're right side that says on that point scriptures I know I'm right on that.
Speaker A
Thank you for telling me. I appreciate it. There are there are some scholars who believed that the the the Bible sorry the Torah in the inj was preserved at the time of the prophet.
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Exactly. They did. That was a minority view. Okay, that is a minority view. It's like this. Look, look, let me tell you this. In the Quran, there's two types of scholars. Some of them believe the earth was flat and some of them
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believed the earth was round. Mhm. Okay, they looked at the verses of the Quran. Some of them looked at the vers of the Quran, they believed the earth was flat because of them. And some of them looked at the verse of the Quran,
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they said the earth was round because of them. Likewise, some people looked at the verses of the Quran and the vast majority of them interpreted it as that it is a distortion of the text both in text and in meaning. Okay. And a
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minority of them believed like you said which but you've exaggerated the claim. No, no, no. You you said it and I will admit it. It's true. Yeah. That some of the scholars of Islam, heavy scholars, sorry, heavy scholars, right?
Speaker A
Well, I mean that's it's up for debate whether Bkari mentioned that or not. It's up for debate. No, it's it's No, it is up for debate. I've looked at the the text text myself. I I don't know what he
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says about that. It's it's hard. You can make a case for against either way.
Speaker A
Either way, either way, Tamia has a strong view on it. He says that the what do you call it? The Bible is like the weak hadith. Haj says that the majority of people that what do you call it? Hass
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has a very strong view. IB believed that most of it was preserved. Yeah, he did say that.
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He believed that most of it was preserved. But he said that the rest of it was like weak hadith and stuff like that. And he mentions the parts of the Bible which he believed were in congruent with the Quran. And he unlike
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what you said today said these can't be from God. Okay. So he has a whole book on that called All right.
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Which is which is something by way I got the reference here for you. I got the reference for you volume one page 161.
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Okay. And he says that it's our view that there's no disagreement against uh on the companions on this matter of there being a change. So Hazam is an early aspect.
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He believes ly he believes he believes there changed in a textual aspect. Does he say that?
Speaker A
Yeah, he does say that. He is very clear. Can you read the quote because you said you got the verse the the reference up you can go to that. I've just told you that he believes that. You can go and and
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check the volume. Can you get the volume and the the thing? I'll get one of the guys to pull it up for us. But you're asking me to pull out, you know, quote exact quotations.
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got the reference. It's now becoming now it's becoming ridiculous. Actually, it's ridiculous for me to ask.
Speaker A
No, no problem. I'll get you the quotes that you want. I will get them. I'll get someone to get you the exact saying that that's ridiculous.
Speaker A
No, no, no. But I don't have the books with me all all of a sudden.
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Then respectfully, don't mention it if you're not ready to present it. No. What do you mean? I've just mentioned the name of the book and the volume. If you want me to read the exact quotation, what do you want? This this
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is this is why I'm saying this hijab is because earlier when you were when you were referencing the hadith, you misqued the hadith. You didn't know what the hadith say. You only knew a part of it, but you didn't know what the
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whole hadith said. This is why this is your memory or no this what you said was the said the hadith the prophet himself said led to and then the part of it which is that don't bel them don't believe them. The
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other part of it wasn't hadith was actually a verse of the Quran. He recited a verse of the Quran in the hadith. Right.
Speaker A
In the hadith. Yes. Thank you. Yeah. So that's why that you asked me about the hadith. The hadith is not we differentiate between the hadith and the Quran. That's why you mistake mistaken.
Speaker A
Muham Muhammad the Quran verse in the hadith. What are you talking about? This is this. Yeah. Okay. So do you want me to read this for you?
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Yes. Okay. Let me see if this So he says this is he says that they wrote another book with their hands. Yeah.
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That they said this is he's he's he is doing of an which is you know the ayah chapter 279 yeah9 which says they wrote a different yeah he's he's interpreting that he's saying that it's a distortion of the
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text. Do you understand? No no no worry. So this is my this is my issue cuz I understand what you're saying. My issue is this in that writing doesn't exist or hold on. No, cuz this is what I'm saying. Writing doesn't
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exist. You what you just read doesn't tell me that he believed that the Torah was textually corrupted simply because they wrote another book and tried to sell it for a small price. You have multiple interpretations on this matter.
Speaker A
You mentioned Hold on. You mentioned Iban Tab earlier with brother. Let me finish. You know what?
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allowed me. This is insane. Iban Tabbury talks about this and talks about how they wrote another book with their own hands. So has nothing to do with the court itself.
Speaker A
You wanted the reference. Avery, we're going to read it for you and we're moving on.
Speaker A
Thank you. Go ahead. Okay. How can you ask the people of the book about something while the while your book which is was revealed to his messenger?
Speaker A
That's another hadith, right? That's that's a hadith, right? You're asking me to to references, right? You ask me to provide references.
Speaker A
cuz I'm reading the references and you're now you're complaining. What do you want? What is this reference to hadith? Is this Saiukari the culture referencing, bro? Let's just read it and let's move on. It's too Okay, just leave this. I mean, to be
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honest with you, what are you laughing at? What are you laughing at? There's nothing.
Speaker A
There's nothing to Look, Avery, you're not you're not winning anything here. Genuinely, hey, what whatever you say, man.
Speaker A
Do you understand? Do you understand what I'm saying to you right now? I know this is high level. You wouldn't be allowed my class, brother.
Speaker A
And this is what happens when you bring people. You wouldn't be allowed in my class because you're not understanding.
Speaker A
You said that the question I'm simply asking you a simple question. I'm asking you a do you understand?
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Can I ask you a question? Can I ask you a question? Why would you mess up the references?
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Do you understand that in Islamic scholarship that there are two views, one majority and one minority? And the I I disagree with you saying majority, but I do agree that there are two views on the presence.
Speaker A
Beautiful. Beautiful. Excellent. Avery, now I go side of scholars that say that they're they're preserved.
Speaker A
What you said is not unreasonable. What you said is not unreasonable. What you said is not unreasonable. Whether or not you believe it's the majority or minority view, you still believe there are two views, right?
Speaker A
So if a Muslim if a Muslim takes the view that the the book that we have today is corrupt, which is what scholarship, modern scholarship has already established, as you know, they haven't established it. That's their they have established it like Bartman
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and all these what do you call it Bruce who affirms the truth of Yeah. Yeah. What you you you haven't even got a single diploma to your name and you're talking about Well, he was on your page saying that
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laughing in your face saying he was laughing. Anyway, anyway, so Jesus was crucified. You know, we definitely have attestations for that.
Speaker A
You remember that? Wow. I'm saying you you said you said it now and we can end at this and then we can move on to Christianity because you you're trying to avoid Christianity.
Speaker A
Islam is hold on. So So we haven't done Christianity yet. We have helped you answer all your questions. We've cleared up all your doubts.
Speaker A
I'm not clear. We've cleared up all your doubts. Now, here's the thing. Clear. We can agree. Hold on for a second.
Speaker A
Can I respond to what you said? I haven't even said anything yet. I haven't even made that point yet.
Speaker A
What is this? Avery a second. Give me a second. You said that you we accept that there are two views. One view that it's partially uh what do you call it? Corrupt from a textual perspective and the other
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one that it's not corrupt from a textual perspective. Correct. I accept that. That's that's a clever way of putting it. No problem. I'm saying that this is the majority of you based on my reading. I don't think you
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can access the books to even tell us that this is the majority in the minority because you can either even translate the books that I asked for that you were saying that you could.
Speaker A
It's not even digitized. I don't see how you can read this and how you can know this. You don't know the Arabic language.
Speaker A
The teacher couldn't bring me the reference. You could bring the source and you said you were reading from Iban Haj but skipped and started reading Iban Hazam. You said you were reading Haj earlier but started reading from people
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are giving me the sourcing. This is pathetic. Okay. I'll get you the Haj one if you want. I no problem as as a goodwill favor. I'll get youn the point is this is that you've already conceded the point which is that there
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are two views. So if I now take conceded that that was my point. Okay.
Speaker A
I'm the one who I'm the one. Okay. Whatever. Okay. Yeah. No whatever. Whatever. I'm the one who had to teach you that there were other big time scholars who said who disagreed with what you had to teach me. You're so clever. I had to
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teach you. I learned my lesson. And the lesson is this. The lesson is that there are two views. Okay? One view is that textual distortion is there and the other view is that textual it's not textual distortion but it's a distortion
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in meaning. There's two views. Okay? And I'm saying that I take the view that there is textual distortion. Just like there's two views just like there's two views on people looking at the Quran.
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different scholars of Islam in the past. Some of them said that the earth was flat and some of them said that the earth was round. By the way, nobody looked at the Bible and said that the earth is round by virtue of the fact the
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Bible by virtue of the fact of the by the way the closest you have is the book of Isaiah 20 of the earth. But no, hold on. So just like you have scholars, just like you have scholars of Islam who looked at the
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verse of the Quran, some of them said the earth was round and some of them said the earth was uh flat and we take the view that the earth is round which which corresponds with the views of andal and haz and etc etc. We do the
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same thing with this issue here. So so long as Okay. Yeah. Beautiful. Ah we got we switch off. Okay. Thank you. It's too long on this. You switch this down.
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Is this Is this Is this thing? Okay. Okay. This one. Where's the other one?
Speaker A
This one or this one? Oh, no. No. Here it is. It's exactly what I said. Subhan Allah.
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Correct. This is what This is what What do you call it? Uh what's his name? Um actually, this is even worse for you.
Speaker A
Who are you? You're right about that. And I tell you that that's why he said, "Yeah." Can you translate?
Speaker A
Let me let me let me let me let me translate that. That our friends, a lot of our friends, companions, meanies.
Speaker A
Yeah. Hold on. Let me finish. That the Jews and the Christians, they changed the changed them. Okay.
Speaker A
They even said because they changed them. Yeah. that you can you can distort and you can rip up the verses of the Bible.
Speaker A
Actually, it doesn't even say the Bible. It says, "Yeah, the verses of those distorted texts that this is goes this goes against what Bkari mentioned." So, this is you wanted a reference. This is exactly done, right?
Speaker A
What do you want? Do you want do you want the page number? Do you want what do you want?
Speaker A
Can you shout out the page number and everything so we can look at that? Yeah.
Speaker A
Bkari, what do you call it? It's page number 531 and the J is number 13 and uh the paragraph is number 7,140. Okay, done.
Speaker A
Are we done? Are we done? No, just one second. You want more of a reference?
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Yeah. Can I respond? Can I come on now? Would you admit it now? Can I respond?
Speaker A
Now it's time. What? Another view. You admit it now. Now it's time that we're going to actually ask.
Speaker A
Hold on just one second. I got to be able to respond what he just said.
Speaker A
Respond and we go to Christianity. Is that fair? Yeah. Go on. Yeah. Go on.
Speaker A
Okay. So, thank you for finally bringing the source. Now, we're going to take a look at that to see what it actually says in context. Um, you know, you didn't put it on the screen like we asked you to.
Speaker A
Did you you read out a second? Notice how I let you interrupt it, right?
Speaker A
Language you don't understand. If you're not afraid of what I got to say, man, you got to let me speak, bro.
Speaker A
Go on. All right. I appreciate it. So, when you when you say are you are you going to admit it? Are you going to admit it?
Speaker A
Admit what? We've already agreed together by your own concession. Sure. That there are two views from the scholars.
Speaker A
There's a view that some of them hold that the scriptures are textually corrupted. There's the other view that people like Bkari Ibn Abbas and others according to Iban Mccari uh I'm sorry according to Bkari uh quoting Iban Abbas
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that the scriptures are textually preserved and they're only distorted in meaning not in text.
Speaker A
So not the one that we have today. Just one second. Yeah. So in the time of Muhammad, according to a lot of your big scholars, the scriptures, as you already said, were preserved in Muhammad's time. Now, here's the thing.
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That's true. This is what majority of them. Please allow me to finish. Yeah, no problem.
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Please allow me to finish. Thank you. I appreciate it. This is what this would mean because I I I take this view, the the view of Bkari and others.
Speaker A
But this is what this means. This means that the scriptures that existed in Muhammad's time according to your pre- Islamic scholars, notice how they got to keep interrupting. Brother, have some self-control. Let me talk.
Speaker A
Thank you. Have some self-control. You put on a chef hat. Selfcontrol. Let me talk for the occasion. I got dressed for the occasion.
Speaker A
That's all. What this means is since according by your concession the big scholars some big scholars also believed in full preservation of the scriptures in Muhammad's time this means that according to those scholars what I have even to this day Matthew Mark Luke John
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Genesis Exodus Leviticus Numbers Deuteronomy the writings of the prophets everything that they had in Muhammad's time that he had in possession true is the author is authoritative and is the word of Allah That's a misrepresentation of even those.
Speaker A
Please, bro. Please, if you can correct me when I'm done. I will. We'll do. Go on.
Speaker A
Okay. Appreciate it. Yeah. So, and here's here's the the other fact that we have to take into account, okay?
Speaker A
Is that the side that believed in preservation of the of the Bible, they gave references from the Quran. They used the Quran and they used to prove their point.
Speaker A
But from your side, this is what what the problem is. your side of the spectrum. You guys have no Quranic or hadith proof to back that there's any textual corruption. Every you're talking about something that's way above your
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pay grade. Look, let me tell you something. You say it's above my grade. The reason why it's above your pay me wrong saying is not a proof is not an argument.
Speaker A
Okay. Do you want me to respond to you? The response is give me evidences, please.
Speaker A
Sure. So, what I've just I've just given you just say this Christian evidences. I've given you a reference and not only have I given you the P number. Okay. So, no longer can you play this game. I read
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it in the original lang. Wait, what game? Sorry. Play game. The the game that you're playing that you're saying that they never refer to a hadith or Quranic verse. It's not true because in fact Bkari sorry I didn't say that, bro.
Speaker A
Okay. You said that they don't mention hadith versus sorry hadith or the Quran. That's what you said. So they they don't they don't have on my side of the scholarship. You said on my side of the scholarship they don't
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mention a Quranic verse and they don't do on my oh on yours. So sorry. Yeah. So on on your on your on your side there's no Quranic what I said is there's no Quranic evidence. So let me respond to
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that. So what the answer to that is actually they do mention it and they usually mention chapter 2 verse 79. Yeah. And in fact himself mentions a opinion like that in where it says there's an opinion that says
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what does what does say himself doesn't do he just puts different uh names okay oh he does he gives what's view is not clear to me what I could tell you I could teach it to you it's not clear to me I've I've looked at
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all the verses in question it's not clear to me yeah but would you like to know what he says mentions something of they they dispute the authenticity of that hadith saying that it's etc which means want to know
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what himself said cuz he doesn't know that that tour is being corrupted. Let me finish. Let me finish.
Speaker A
You don't want to know himself. Can you let me finish? Can you let me finish so you can learn something from this? Can you let me finish?
Speaker A
I'm the only one teaching you so far, man. Okay. Well, you can teach me without access to the primary sources and I can learn without access to the primary sources. It's quite of an asymmetrical lesson.
Speaker A
I have I have open right now. It's an asymmetrical lesson like you. I actually have my ready.
Speaker A
You don't have access to the primary sources. That's an asymmetrical lesson. All right. have open right here. Let me finish. Let me finish what I'm saying. Let me finish what I'm saying.
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Hajalani and all of these other scholars that I've mentioned with the with the page number and the J number and the paragraph number. All of those guys, they mentioned this verse in chapter number two verse 79. Some of them
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mentioned the verse in chapter 5 verse 134. Yeah. Some of them mention other verses.
Speaker A
They do interpret the Quran in that way. Okay? Now, you can say they don't, but that's just your interpretation. Just like if someone said, "Okay, there are some scholars that say the Quran is flat." Yes, we believe the Quran that
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says that the earth is flat, but Hassan believes that it says the Quran says the earth is round. So, there are two interpretations. Someone can follow this one and someone can follow that one.
Speaker A
It's not a matter where if you the Islam has one opinion on it. So, it can't be an undercutter for Islam. Do you get it?
Speaker A
It can't be an undercutter for Islam because there's more than one legitimate opinion and in my estimation it is the majority opinion. Now we've finished.
Speaker A
Your strongest argument has been complete. Now it's time for Christianity unless you want to run away.
Speaker A
No, no, no. It's done. It's done. It's done now. It's done now. It's done.
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People can decide. People heard you. People heard me. It's done. It's done now. I can't just end it.
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No. No. We've We spent a lot of time on it. I promise you I won't even give another reference. Spent a lot of time on it. We spent a lot of time on it as a corruption of the Torah.
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People can decide. People can decide. Avery, people can decide. Now says they wrote a book based on their own interpretation.
Speaker A
Now it's time to ask you this. Is Jesus's point. Is Jesus fully God? We we say that he's truly God.
Speaker A
No. Is Jesus fully God? Is he Is he fully God? I already answered you. We don't say fully as if there's percentages. We say truly God.
Speaker A
Okay. Is he fully God? How many times you want to answer this? No. No. Is he fully God? We you're a strong man in our position. Please, if you're going to ask me questions in reference question or not,
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we say truly God. Is Jesus truly God? I'm asking question. Is Jesus fully God or not? Jesus is fully God or not? Is he fully God or not?
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I already answered. Yes or no? Give me another question. I already answered. Yes. Is Is Jesus fully God or not?
Speaker A
I already answered. Yes. Don't run. Don't scared. Yeah. Don't Don't run from an actual Christian.
Speaker A
Is Jesus fully God or not? We don't say fully God. fully truly God. Yes, Jesus is truly God in every way that God is Jesus fully God all the essential properties to be God. Now deal with my deal with my position fully God.
Speaker A
Is Jesus fully God or not? Deal with my position. Please is Jesus fully God or not?
Speaker A
Please deal with my position. Is Jesus fully God or not? I already answered you.
Speaker A
Yes or no? Just wait. Deal with my position now. Don't be scared now. I know.
Speaker A
Deal with my position. Is fully God or not? I want you to notice here, ladies and gentlemen. This is how you know someone is having they have to the script once you take them off their script they are
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fully they don't know where to go. They don't know where to go. Is he fully God?
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I answered you on that. Yes. Asked and answered. What is it? Asked and answered.
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Okay. Let me ask you this. Let me change it because you you're you're not going to you're not gone or not. All right. No problem. No problem. You run away from that one. No problem. Yeah, he he possesses all the
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essential properties that make God God. Okay. So when you say Jesus is is is this statement true or false? Jesus is God. Is it true or false statement?
Speaker A
That's a true statement. Okay. Is the is okay. Excellent. Jesus is God is a true statement, right?
Speaker A
I just said that. Yeah. Great. No problem. Is that is of predication or identity?
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It'll be a predication. Okay. So it's predication, is it? So he has the quality of being divine.
Speaker A
Yep. He has the description of being divine. Yep. Okay. So that means to say that the father has this quality, the son has this quality and the holy spirit has this quality.
Speaker A
They they all have the essential properties. They all have the divine essence. They are all god by essence.
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No problem. So they all have the quality of being divine. Yeah. They all have the nature.
Speaker A
Oh, okay. Beautiful. And do they have a will? Yeah, they have the same will because will is will is a faculty of your essence. So wait, hold on for a second.
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So they have the same will do they that's what I said. So is the will uh predicatively okay does uh God the father have the same will in a predicative sense as God the son?
Speaker A
What why would you say in a predicative sense? What do you mean by by that?
Speaker A
Because you're mixing between Latin trinitarianism and three self trinitarian social trinitarianism. You're mixing between Can you explain that?
Speaker A
Yeah let me explain because No, let me explain this to you. Right. is if you're saying that the father is God from a predicative perspective. Yes. If he's God from a predicative perspective, that means he has a center of consciousness
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which is different from the sun. Is that correct? Based on what? Because you you've just said it's predicative. It's not identity, is it?
Speaker A
Yeah. So what what is what how does it follow? Do you understand the words I'm using? I don't think you do. If Jesus is God by predication, just real quick, if Jesus is God by predication because he derives
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the divine essence from the father, just let me finish. I don't understand. Why you get so uncomfortable? Why you get so uncomfortable? You don't even understand the question you're asking.
Speaker A
If full of God, you can answer. If Jesus If Jesus because he deres his source from the father and the divine essence of the father and so therefore is predicated the divine essence, how does that entail or conclude that he has
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a different will than the father? separate center of consciousness to the sun or not.
Speaker A
Correct. What? Why? Why? Why? I don't understand. What do you mean? Why? I'm They have the same They have the same mind and will, brother. They have the same center of consciousness. Same mind.
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They have the same mind. They have the same will. Do they have the same essence as well? They have the same essence.
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That's what I said. Every time you ask me the same question. Okay. They have the same mind. They have the same will. They have the same essence. Do they have the same attributes?
Speaker A
Yes. Aha. So now you've moved to is of identification because identity because now actually if they're the same in essence and the same in mind and they're the same in consciousness and the same in will and the same in attributes that
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means they're one and the same person aren't they? No, there's a relative identity. They're identical in essence. They're not identical. There's a distinction in their person. Wait, hold on. Hold on.
Speaker A
Hold on. This this doesn't work. This this argument probably worked back in 2017. Wait, hold on. Let me take it step by step because take it step by step. We're going to dismantle this step.
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Don't pretend don't pretend that Christianity has not been struggling with this for two years.
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It has it hasn't yet. This this argu we've just been pretending. We've just been looking at different things.
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There's different models. If you're right now the trinity on Stanford encyclopedia, you'll see Latin trinitarianism, social trinitarianism.
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There's views of this. You mention relative identity. Do you know who mentions that relative identity?
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Who has written book? Peter Ge has written about it recently actually. Yeah. Relative identity actually. What does it have to do with what does that have to sens are you about to refute Peter Ge or something or you don't know what he says? What does
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he say? What does Pet I I I just asked you if you're going to Are you What does Peter G say? If you're talking about relative what does Peter G say?
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What What is my position? What is You said relative identity. So I want to know what Peter G say in in regard in regards to my position. How are you refuting the trinity?
Speaker A
No, I'm You said relative identity that's associated with Peter Gech. Do you know what he said?
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What? I I don't care who you don't even know what you're talking about, do you?
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You don't even know what you're talking about. If I hold the position talking identity, hold on. If I hold the position of relative identity, what is your argument against it?
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Do you do you hold the position of relative identity? Do you or not? This question.
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So, so if you hold the position of relative identity of Peter Gech, my response to it is the following. My response to it is in order for you to come to that conclusion you have to have a relative identity framework and a
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relative identity framework goes against predicate and propositional logic and in particular it goes against Linet's law which means that in order for you to prove the trinity you have to allow contradictions do you agree do you agree with that
Speaker A
no uh can you you have to reject propositional logic reject classical logic yes or no what what is liben's law it's the law of identity no it's a specific Law of identity. Can you tell me exactly what LI is law?
Speaker A
Yeah, it's the law of identity. What specific law of identity is it? Cuz there's law categories.
Speaker A
There's categories within the law of identity. Would you like What does Lin's law say?
Speaker A
Wait, do you want me to teach you what the law of identity is? Is that what you're asking me?
Speaker A
No. I want you to This is what we're going to do cuz it show it seems that you didn't know anything about anything.
Speaker A
You didn't even know that relative identity was connected to people. You don't understand. You don't even understand.
Speaker A
Saying I don't understand doesn't mean anything. Hold on. Hold Avery. You didn't even know that relative identity was associated with Peter Geachch. That had nothing to do with the argument.
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I had to teach you that has nothing to do with the argument. My position is relative identity. What is your argument against my position?
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. So my So you said law. So what is law of identity? What is it?
Speaker A
Sure. Hold on. Hold on. All right. We're waiting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If A is X and B is X, it follows A is.
Speaker A
Finish it. You tell me. If if the father is God, the father is God and the son is God. It it follows what?
Speaker A
Answer. You do it. Father is the son. It follows the father is the son.
Speaker A
What? Okay. What category? Are you okay? Do you understand? What category of the law of identity is the law?
Speaker A
Do you believe that the father is the son? So, okay. Let let me Do you believe the father is the son?
Speaker A
No, I don't. So, let me help you out. You don't believe in the father. Let me help you out. This is this is a blunder because you don't even know what life's law is. The father himself's law is the
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category. He says he says and his law of identity is called absolute identity. Means that you have to be absolutely identical in every way in every sense.
Speaker A
Exactly. And guess and guess what? There are philosophers who do like Peter Gech and others who do not hold to absolute identity. And so we can keep going with examples. So absolute identity is not the convention philosophers. Avery, let
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me let me teach you this. Let me teach you this. Allow me to respond. I've been saying identity. Absolute identity is a necessity.
Speaker A
Let me let me respond to you, okay? And let me teach you because this is something is a necessity.
Speaker A
Listen, Avery, have some respect because listen, I've done six degrees. Yeah. Six degrees of 15 years. You know, I'm trying to I'm trying to respect you.
Speaker A
You're talking showing that you don't you got degrees. Ask me questions later. Ask you trivia questions. Don't ask me whatever questions.
Speaker A
That's a trivia question now. No. You didn't even know what I law was. Hold on. Hold on. Let me finish. This is an education. It's a free one, okay? So, just have some respect, okay? And I'll teach you about all these things.
Speaker A
You didn't know what Liv's law was? What do you mean? I've written a whole chapter on liets in my jealous. What the state? What is his law?
Speaker A
I've read Give me one book that livets wrote. See there's another give me one BOOK THAT LAD WROTE WE'RE GOING to book give me one book if I was wrong that lad wrote give me one book one book
Speaker A
the Muslim shuffle doesn't work it doesn't work so just be quiet law is you don't even know anything that he wrote I've written chap tell us what his law is be quiet yeah honestly please live is equivalent to The law of
Speaker A
identity. We already discussed it, man. What are you doing, man? What you are you done?
Speaker A
Hey, look. I love how my food talks back to me, ladies and gentlemen. I love it.
Speaker A
You've run away. You've run away now from the from the discussion, haven't you? What do you mean? You're the only one acting is the father god.
Speaker A
I already answered this. Can you tell us what lil is? Are you do I need to repeat myself the fourth time? You don't even know who live is.
Speaker A
Get your thoughts together. You don't even know who lives. Who lies? What did he invent? Look, look. What's going to name helper? Make sure we count. What's his first name?
Speaker A
How many times this dude deflects? What's his first name? What is law? You brought it up.
Speaker A
What is his first name? What is Lieben's law? I've already explained to you. It's the law of identity. Are you No, that's a it's a category within the law of identity. You don't know what I'm talking about.
Speaker A
It's it's the law of identity. It's the same as the law of identity. That's they call it Linux law. The law of identity is live. Be quiet now because you don't know what you're talking about. You don't even know who live is. You don't
Speaker A
even know where he was from. You don't even know what books he wrote. You don't even know what his first name was. You don't know anything about him. You don't know anything about him. I'll tell you.
Speaker A
I've actually read all of his books. By the way, every single you tell me if I make the calculus ones.
Speaker A
I'll tell you if I make correct listen. Be quiet. Don't talk about liveness with me. Yeah. You're not in a position to speak about liveness.
Speaker A
Yeah. I'll tell you what his law is. Tell me anything. You're not in a position to do so.
Speaker A
You tell the question is this. Is the father's law is is that something is identical if and only if they are identical. They share all the the properties. They are identical in all of their properties. Is that correct?
Speaker A
You're reading the over AI overview, right? I'm looking at you. My friend is telling me all of Okay, no problem. Is that correct or not?
Speaker A
So, so good. Good. Do Do you accept law? Is that correct? Do you accept it or not?
Speaker A
Is that correct? Yes. Yes. Yes. Did you accept? I had to teach you on what Lib's law was. Thank you.
Speaker A
Are you a stupid guy, man? Are you all right? Are you okay? So, now dealing with Linen's law.
Speaker A
Okay. I don't go the father god. Lett's law identity first also reject father god from a linet's law identity perspective from a livven law identity I don't hold to that I don't hold to lman's law ah so you have to reject it do you
Speaker A
yes I don't hold to so you have to reject linets law do you you have you don't know what you accept what you laughing at what you laughing at what you laughing at the script was destroyed no hold on hold on
Speaker A
okay you're You're putting in a relative identity framework. What you don't understand is the following. What you don't understand is order in order for you to put forward a relative identity framework, you have to reject Linet's law. Linenet's law or the law of
Speaker A
identity is in fact one of the three major pillars of propositional logic. You have three pillars of propositional logic. One of them is the law of identity. The other one is the law of non-contradiction. And the third one is
Speaker A
what? The law of excluded middle. These are the three principle of propositional logic. These are the pillars of it. Now, in order for you to make your case, what you're essentially admitting is the following. That in order for me to make
Speaker A
a case for Jesus being God and in one sense and father being God in another sense and the Holy Spirit being God in another, I have to reject one of the pillars of propositional logic.
Speaker A
Propositional logic is the most foundational and accepted logic in the world for the last five 3,000 years, 4,000 years. So you have to you accept that in order for you to try and justify a version of the trinity which is Peter
Speaker A
G's one which is repudiated by Christians himself that you have to accept a framework which rejects one of the pillars of propositional logic. Yes or no?
Speaker A
No. So can you demonstrate no but you said you reject so I let you don't hold to it.
Speaker A
I let you don't hold to it for a very long said. You said you don't hold for a very very long time. So you just said God logic doesn't believe in logic to the logic logic. You don't believe in
Speaker A
logic. Logic propositional logic. You don't believe in it, do you? In order for you in order for you to fight the trinity, you have to reject me. Let me beat my chest instead of have a discussion. So relax.
Speaker A
I appreciate it. Respond. I don't have to hold to your reject of Lieben's law in order to hold to the law of identity. The law of identity works with relative identity.
Speaker A
I'm not rejecting the law of identity. So you can be identical in one sense while having distinctions in another.
Speaker A
No, that's not that's even that's not even how Peter Ge that's not how he um articulates it. He says there's a sort and then he says that the sort is represented by G and then you've got F and then you've got uh S and you've got
Speaker A
H. Father, Son, Holy Spirit. And then he says that F is relatively identical to G and the S is relatively identical to G and the HS which is Holy Spirit is relatively identical to G. He doesn't say what you're saying. He in fact
Speaker A
rejects the law of identity which is what you've had to do. You have to reject a pillar of logic. Yet you call yourself God logic. YOU ACTUALLY CALL YOURSELF god logic, but you have to reject logic in order for you to make
Speaker A
some sense of the trinity, don't you? Yes or no? No. No. I'm I'm sorry that the script didn't work. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That's false. That's false. I'm sorry that the I'm sorry the script didn't work.
Speaker A
Let me respond. One second. Let me respond. Wait one second. He's rejecting logic so much. His recipe says reduce until thick.
Speaker A
No, but thanks for adding nothing to the cover. I'm asking you guys I'm going to respond. Okay.
Speaker A
Do you reject I don't want to I don't want us to talk over each other. Hijab. Do you reject the law of identity or not? Yes or no?
Speaker A
No, I don't. So hij to it. Can I please speak? You just said you don't hold to it.
Speaker A
Can I please contradiction? You might as well. You might as well reject the law OF NONCONTRADICTION.
Speaker A
YOU'VE JUST REJECTED ONE. Might as well reflection. Another interruption the other one just script is dismantled has been intellectually molested has been cooked and chefed and stirred up and so I think you know I think the people can
Speaker A
see according to you know what the situation people can see identity that saying is necessary or reject.
Speaker A
So since we're going to spend 20 on this, you reject the law of identity.
Speaker A
Can you demonstrate that Liebin's law necessitates absolute identity? Cuz that's what you're saying. You're saying that absolute identity is the law of identity, which I disagree with. You can still affirm the law of identity while being relatively wrong. while having say
Speaker A
that notice how they're talking over me still hijab doesn't notice I let him speak guys and he has to interrupt me and talk over me this shows the weakness in your position hijab let me speak I'll give you 20 seconds
Speaker A
not 20 seconds just let me say my piece say your piece say your piece say good lord thank you so here's an example if so the Titanic right the Titanic before it got shipped off. It's in perfect uh condition, no scratches, no
Speaker A
bangs, you know, it's all good to go. He's reading. Gets shipped off, crashes into the glacier, sinks, gets ripped up.
Speaker A
Here's my question. He's reading. Here's my question. Hijab. Is the Titanic that left the shore absolutely identical in every way to the Titanic that crashed into the glacier and is sunk sunken? Is it absolutely identical?
Speaker A
I wasn't hearing what you said. Look, I don't even know what you're talking about. No, I don't even know what you're talking about. Listen, here's Go back.
Speaker A
Stop reading GPT. It's not really This is the new generation bro. People dumber. The only Titanic is your arguments are sinking, brother. That's the only thing that sink into arguments. I don't even see your arguments. Listen, let's go
Speaker A
back. I know you don't. You're not you're not up there yet to where you can understand the argument where you can hear the argument.
Speaker A
Answer the question. What's the way the Titanic is question absolute clowns? Is the Titanic that left the shore absolutely identical in every single way to the Titanic that crashed and sunk?
Speaker A
What? What? Surprise. The Titanic that left the the shore the same as the one that sunk.
Speaker A
They absolutely identical in every way. PROBABLY NOT BECAUSE IT'S BEEN BUT IT'S STILL THE TITANIC. So you just affirmed that the worst That is the worst thing I've ever heard. That is the worstity I have ever heard. That is the worst thing I've ever
Speaker A
heard. Okay. Is is the Titanic the same Titanic that sunk? What are you talking?
Speaker A
Is it the same ship? So, what's the analogy here? Is it the same ship?
Speaker A
What's the What's the analogy here? What's the Is the Titanic? That's for sure. The same ship that sunk.
Speaker A
What's your point? What's your point? Make your point. Ask again. I'll ask it again.
Speaker A
No. No. Make your point. We don't You're going to answer. You're going to answer.
Speaker A
No, it's not the same one. It's a different one. It's a different one. It's a different one. Whatever. Okay.
Speaker A
Now, the shore. What does it mean? Is it the same ship that sunk? What are you talking about, man? Okay. No, it's not. No, you're right. So, what does it mean? What does it mean? What does it mean? What does it mean? Is I'll ask it
Speaker A
again. I'll ask it again cuz you just affirmed identity without absolute identity. You wast You just affirmed identity without absolute identity. I'll ask it again.
Speaker A
So, is the Titanic that left the No, no. Explain it to me how it goes to father, son, holy spirit, please.
Speaker A
No, no, no, no. You're going to answer this. I want you cuz I want I It's the same. It's different. Some things are different about it. No problem. Yeah. No.
Speaker A
The Titanic that left the shore. The same ship. What? Okay. What do you want me to say? I don't know how he wants me to answer this.
Speaker A
With all those degrees, man. You're notified. You're not You're not qualified for this level of of of, you know, wait a You're not ready, man. One second. One second. Let me clarify. He just ladies and gentlemen. One second.
Speaker A
just the Titanic. I'm sorry, brother. I'm sorry. Let me just land this and then I'll let you speak on It's not the same one that Brother, I don't I don't want to speak over you. I want to hear what you're
Speaker A
saying. Just let me land what I'm saying. Okay, I'm going land what I'm saying. And I And I promise I'll sit quiet. I'll listen to you.
Speaker A
So, Muhammad Hijab, you just affirmed identity disregarding absolute identity. That's why you're confused. Uh go ahead.
Speaker A
Prove relative identity. So, from one aspect he's God, then from another aspect he's not. Is that what you're trying to say? No. So what what you trying to say? What you trying to say to be identical? Make your point man in one
Speaker A
man and distinct another. So the father, son, and holy spirit are identical in essence while being distinct in personhood or hypostasis.
Speaker A
Okay. Okay. No problem. They're distinct in hypoasis and in person. Okay. No problem. If they're distinct in person, do they have separate centers of consciousness or not? I already answered this question. I'll answer it again. They have the same
Speaker A
center of consciousness. They have the same mind, the same will. Tell me what's different. Yeah. Tell me what's different about it.
Speaker A
Oh, what's different about the persons? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. One. So, the father begets the son. The father is unbegotten.
Speaker A
The father is unbegotten. The son is begotten from the father and the spirit proceeds from the father.
Speaker A
Oh, I see. So, no. Great. I let me learn a bit more about the trinity because I want to know.
Speaker A
I know you are. You're learning a lot today. No, I need to learn more about the trinity since I'm here all day, man. I'm here to serve teach me I'm here to serve hal meals.
Speaker A
Hold on. Let me just ask you the question so you can teach me about the trinity please. Yeah. I want to know because everybody wants doing that so far. What's your question?
Speaker A
All the Muslims want to know. All the Muslims want to know. Yeah. So I'm going to ask you this.
Speaker A
What's your question? Habibi. My question boy is the following. Okay. Boy. The question is the following. If it's true if it's true that the father begets the son. Okay.
Speaker A
You said that right? Yeah, I did. Does that mean that the son is generated?
Speaker A
Yes, he is generated eternally from the father. Okay, beautiful. So, if he's generated, that means it's caused, right?
Speaker A
Uh, no. So, when we're saying, let me Yeah. No. Huh? What is it? Stuttering all this, bro.
Speaker A
Generated. Let me let me explain. Let me explain. All right. Got you. So when we say that the son is begotten or generated or caused by the father, this is not something that happens in time. But this is eternal
Speaker A
generation. An eternal begotten. He's being perpetually caused. Is he? Is he being perpetually caused?
Speaker A
He's he's eternally generated. Aha. So generated means he's perpetually caused. Is he? Sure. What?
Speaker A
So caused. Okay. So he's a contingent existent. He's not a necessary existent. He's contingent. He's a dependent being.
Speaker A
Is he? Is your god depend? No. No. Let me let me answer this now. He's not a dependent being. To be to be a dependent being means that you are dependent or contingent on another being outside of yourself. The son shares the
Speaker A
same essence is the same being as the father. And so therefore the father eternally regenerating the son is not demonstrates that he's actually a because his essence isn't sourced in any other essence. But you just said is he
Speaker A
you just said is generated by the father. That's what you just said. He's called Yeah. He shares the same essence as the father. This is the difference between hypoatic properties properties. To be a dependent being means that your
Speaker A
essential properties are contingent on another being. Learn the categories. Remember now you admit you admit that he's generated by the father eternally. Yes.
Speaker A
Oh eternally. It makes even worse because he's caused being caused and caused and caused and caused and caused and caused so that it needs to be caused over and over again. Is that what you're telling me?
Speaker A
Say it again. Sorry. Can you be caused and uncaused at the same time? Depends. Yeah, it depends on what you mean. So you can be you can BE NOW YOU'VE GONE STRAIGHT INTO the non-contradiction. Now you've taken non-contradictions.
Speaker A
YO, THE MANIFESTATION IS NON CONTRADICTION. This is this IS WHY HOW DARE YOU TALK ABOUT ISLAM. HOW DARE you talk about Islam. is why God and AT THE SAME TIME NOW ONE OF THE FACES of you ONE WAY
Speaker A
Christianity repent for your ways Christianity immediately now YOU'VE BEEN OUT NOW HAVEN'T YOU BOY IT'S CAUSED BUT UNCAUSED AT THE SAME TIME IS IT NONE OF THIS WORKS BRO at the same time it's a controvention of contradiction boy is it a is it a contra
Speaker A
of non-contradiction, boy, you've been trying to jump out the pot. Is it a contravention of non-contradiction or not, boy?
Speaker A
Okay. All right. Is it a contravention of non-contradiction or not? Boy, can I can I can I ANSWER?
Speaker A
OH, it's on cause. Is he Is it cause? Can I answer? Thank you. So, now I'm about to answer your question. So, hijab, this is you not understanding categories to for something to be a contradiction. It has to be the opposite
Speaker A
in the same way in the same sense. So when I say Jesus is uncaused and gone at the same time, I'm not saying that he's uncaused in the same sense that he's caused. So in for example, him being
Speaker A
caused by the father, excuse me, him being caused or eternally generated by the father is a hypoatic quality.
Speaker A
It's a hypothetic property, a relation that he has with the father. Sure. Not saying excuse me, excuse me.
Speaker A
He is not essentially called. Excuse me. Excuse me. Can a necessary being be caused in any way?
Speaker A
Excuse me. Can a necessary being in any way? Allow me to finish. Can a necessary being caused in any way?
Speaker A
Talks to me, but a necessary being caused in any way, boy. Can a necessary being caused in any way?
Speaker A
Can an independent being dependent in any way? Can an uncaused being caused in any way?
Speaker A
Jump out. Can an uncaused being caused in any way, bro? To jump out the pot.
Speaker A
Stop trying to jump out. And this is what the Quran says. Subhan Allah. This is what the Quran.
Speaker A
This is what the Quran says. You talk about the people who have heen does not beget. Why? Because he's Are you going to continue your nervousness? Are you going to allow your nervousness and your fear to overcome you? Are you going to continue to not?
Speaker A
Be quiet for a second. If this is not going to happen this entire live, let me tell you this. Hey now, now the live stream, ladies and gentlemen, has degraded because Muhammad can't allow a discourse, a dialogue.
Speaker A
Avery, allow me, allow me to finish what I was saying without your interruption. Avery, Avery, allow me to finish what I was saying without interruption.
Speaker A
Avery, Avery. So, I'm just going to continue. Listen, Jesus is not caused. That's not what you're saying because you're saying from the father is not derived from anything else.
Speaker A
Okay. However, is caused hypoatically eternally generated meaning it doesn't happen in time because that's his relation with the father. So it's not a contradiction because his causation is in the sense of his hypoatic relation with the father while he's essentially
Speaker A
not caused by any other being. I'm hoping in any sense. Can a necessary being be caused in any sense?
Speaker A
Yes. Hypothetically, then you're you're out of order. You're out of order because you're out of order and you don't know what you're talking about. A necessary being cannot be in any sense with the consensus of magicians.
Speaker A
You're absolutely out of order. You're absolutely out of order for you to say Yeah. that it's it's it's ridiculous. So your god is dependent is he refute me.
Speaker A
Refute me. No. Again to be dependent. Okay. No problem. To be dependent is to rely on a being outside refutes you. The show me that my God is is is the Quran refutes you by telling you clearly. The Quran says
Speaker A
say he's Allah one and only Allah. He is the independent. He beggets not nor is he begotten.
Speaker A
and there's nothing like him. Why is Allah telling us that he is independent and then telling us he does not beget nor is he begotten? Because it's clear that people like you unfortunately believe it's possible to be independent
Speaker A
and dependent at the same time. Allah is telling us and this is in line with classical logic which you've already rejected today that it's impossible to be independent and dependent at the same time in any respect in even 1% respect.
Speaker A
You cannot be a necessary or independent being in any respect in any respect and then have an 1% dependency. You can't have 1% dependency. You cannot have hypoatic dependency. You cannot have essential dependency. You cannot have attributional dependency. You cannot
Speaker A
have any level onlogical dependency. And if you believe that you can then you are putting two things together which contradict. You don't understand that because you're a fool. You're an idiot.
Speaker A
And you have misrepresented Peter Ge. He doesn't believe what you just said. depending on yes or no with the with the predicative view social trinitarianism and what do you call it Latin trinitarianism and trinitarian philosophy you don't know what you're
Speaker A
talking about you don't know what you're saying depth you're completely out of your depth you don't know what you're saying you can drink you can put whatever hat and costume you want you have been entirely decimated today it's been
Speaker A
destruction upon destruction upon destruction identical Christian that's watching this today. Let me tell you this Christians if you're watching this and you just heard this if you just heard this presentation about the trinity and you still are Christian wall
Speaker A
you are fooling yourselves and you should be ashamed because there's no way you believe you don't believe in a god that's dependent you don't believe in aarass you don't believe in a generated god you don't believe in any of that
Speaker A
stuff you believe in the one god that created the heavens and the earth that's what we Muslims call you to we call you to the one God who created the heavens and the Yes. The father, son, and holy
Speaker A
spirit. One God who created the heavens and the earth had to deny God to say about that God of all creation and all dependent and on on the central level is not that is an insufficient dissatisfactory otherwise incomplete
Speaker A
answer possible to reconcile and if you then you're either ignorant you know Islam is true you know there's only one God worthy of worship You know there's only one God that doesn't begget nor is he begotten. You know the father
Speaker A
is the father and you know that the holy spirit says this is your strongest argument against it crumbled argument against Christianity. It succeeded. We finished you my friend.
Speaker A
Any last words before we go dependent on order to have a son. He's depending on our friend. You can speak to him please.
Speaker A
You just refuted Allah. Well, well, well, well, look who it is. Shake it to talk to each other, please.
Speaker A
Let me Why? Why are you substituting? Can I Can I Can I speak? No, you cannot speak.
Speaker A
I can't speak. Where you going? So, you ran away to bring up the puppy.
Speaker A
Hello. Can I speak? You ran away to bring up the pup. Hello. Can I speak?
Speaker A
I thought I was TALKING TO THE CHAMP. LOGIC, CAN I SPEAK? THIS BOY, I NEED HELP.
Speaker A
WHAT'S WRONG, MAN? Brought brought the rookie up. I'm not I don't deal with rookies, man.
Speaker A
You've already dealt with I'm I'm talking to the champ. Can I speak? No, you cannot speak. You You don't have a voice here.
Speaker A
Why are you You don't have a voice here. You don't want to speak to me?
Speaker A
Oh, looks like Muhammad and a job ran. All right, guys. So, looks like a job proved that the Trinity is logical.
Speaker A
He proved that he has absolutely no uh argument against the Trinity. I want to say thanks for coming. A job.
Speaker A
He's running. He's running. Look, I want you to talk to my friend a little bit. I don't talk to my friend. Don't be scared of him. Scared of him. Why are you scared of me?
Speaker A
Why you scared of him? I JUST I JUST DESTROYED THE CHAMP. Why would I TALK TO YOUR PUP?
Speaker A
MY FRIEND WANTS TO TALK to My friend, man, God bless you. Yes, my friend wants to talk to you.
Speaker A
Hey. Hey, man. Get My friend My friend wants to talk to you. He's running. Why is he running away?
Speaker A
I won't talk to you again until you get her. Don't run away. Don't run away.
Speaker A
Hey y'all. Peace, man. Hey. Hey. Thanks for having me. My friend, he's running. He's running. I don't want to talk. Let him run.
Speaker A
He doesn't want to talk. You know what it is? Uh, orthodox. Sorry to say. He doesn't want to he doesn't want to admit this, but you know, Avery is a little bit like a prostitute. Okay.
Speaker A
He's a little bit like a prostitute. You know why? Yeah. Because every one of us has a turn on this guy. He's
Topics:Mohammed HijabGodLogicIslamic dilemmaIslam vs Christianity debateQuran 10:94apologeticsinterfaith debatereligious debateIslamic theologyChristian apologetics
