Speaker A
Your definition of Islam or Muslim means nothing because anybody can be a Muslim by what you just defined.
A detailed debate on whether Jesus was Muslim, exploring theological definitions and differences between Islam and Christianity.
Key Takeaways
- Definitions of 'Muslim' and 'God' are central to the debate about Jesus' religious identity.
- Islam views Jesus as a prophet who submitted to the one true God, Allah.
- Christian theology about Jesus conflicts with Islamic views, especially regarding the nature of God.
- Acceptance of Muhammad as the final prophet is essential in Islam but not recognized in Christianity.
- Interpretation of scripture varies significantly between the two religions, affecting theological conclusions.
Summary
- The video features a debate between a Christian and a Muslim discussing if Jesus was Muslim.
- The Christian argues Jesus cannot be Muslim due to opposing theological views about God.
- The Muslim perspective defines a Muslim as one who submits to the God of Islam, accepting all prophets including Jesus.
- Discussion on the specific theology of God in Islam versus Christianity, emphasizing the oneness and attributes of Allah.
- The Muslim side claims Jesus was a prophet who submitted to God, aligning with Islamic teachings.
- The Christian side highlights contradictions and theological differences that prevent Jesus from being considered Muslim.
- Both sides explore the meaning of submission to God and the acceptance of Muhammad as a prophet in Islam.
- The debate touches on interpretative challenges of biblical verses and Islamic scripture.
- The conversation clarifies the importance of defining 'God' and 'Muslim' in theological terms.
- The video ends with an analysis of figurative language in scripture and its implications for theology.
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
Let's say there's a language out there that you pronounce the name Jesus as "gay." In that hypothetical situation, are you going to say Jesus is gay?
Speaker A
So, you can't say Jesus is a Muslim when he has the opposite theology. When he has the opposite idea of who God is, what he desires from us, who we are to God versus Islam, you can't say he's a
Speaker A
Muslim. He just made a huge name of... Let me change the blunder before he changes the subject.
Speaker A
No, you don't. You know what? You want me to catch on the blunder?
Speaker A
Not me. That was your argument. So don't try to put your stupid argument onto me. That was silly.
Speaker A
Are you serious? Are we circling back? Stop stalling. You're really good at this, huh?
Speaker A
I am. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, check this out. Let me explain to you. Was Jesus a Muslim?
Speaker A
Obviously, I'm a Christian. I say no. Um, I think that it's very misleading what I usually hear about what a Muslim is and then trying to apply it to Jesus and, you know, prophets before Muhammad. Um, I think that we
Speaker A
could start with however Dr. Nasser defines what a Muslim to be and then we can go from there.
Speaker A
Sure. So I'm sorry. What I would say is that yes, of course I believe that Jesus, peace be upon him, was a Muslim, and the reason I would say that is because, in my perspective, you have two
Speaker A
possibilities. If you want to take from the world religions which actually believe in Jesus, Islam and Christianity. And, obviously, if you take the Quran as authoritative, then you're going to come to the conclusion that he's Muslim because he was a
Speaker A
prophet of God and he therefore lived as prophets would. That being said though, if you want to just look at the Bible, I do believe that you are not going to walk away unscathed either way.
Speaker A
And what I'm trying to say by that is that either you're going to take a Muslim Jesus or a Christian Jesus and you're going to have to navigate the Bible in such a way where you're not going to walk away with all of it
Speaker A
because I don't assume univocality. And so from that perspective, what I would say is that if you take the Muslim version of Jesus, what you're going to get is you're going to be able to salvage so much of the Bible. So much of
Speaker A
it will make sense to you. So much of it will be very clear that he was a prophet, that he prayed to God, that he worshiped God, that he taught people to worship God, etc. There's a
Speaker A
day of judgment, the six pillars of iman, things like this. However, in addition to that, you'll also have the added bonus of having a theology that makes sense to you. On the flip side, if you embrace the Christian version of
Speaker A
Jesus, what I think is going to happen is you're going to end up twisting or denying, essentially twisting to a point where there's no more meaning left. They become unrecognizable, certain verses, certain ideas. And then in addition to
Speaker A
that, even once you're done with all that twisting, you're still going to be stuck with a theology that doesn't make sense to you. So therefore, of those two options, it makes a lot more sense to embrace the Muslim.
Speaker A
Just to keep the conversation kind of concise, he asked like what is a Muslim?
Speaker A
Can you define that? So linguistically, a Muslim is one who submits to God Almighty.
Speaker A
Okay. Now, of course, you could say that Islam as a religion would be the religion of Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him. So I understand that there is a... we can get into that in a
Speaker A
moment. Is that what you want to clarify?
Speaker A
Yeah. Basic.
Speaker A
Yeah. Basically, because when like what you just said, you said that you would define a Muslim as one who submits their will to God, but there's a lot of people who believe they
Speaker A
submit their will to God and you would say they're not Muslim. Correct?
Speaker A
Um, so when you say a Muslim is one who submits the will to God, you're talking about a specific God. You have a specific ideology of God. You can't bow
Speaker A
to a statue and be a Muslim. You can't bow to your mother and think that your mom is God and be a Muslim. I can't bow to Jesus, believe he's God, and be a Muslim. Right? So,
Speaker A
I think it's important for us to clarify what you mean by God when you say a Muslim is one who submits to God. That's specifically the God of Islam, the God of the Quran and the
Speaker A
Hadith, the all-powerful creator of the universe.
Speaker A
And just for clarification, can someone be Muslim, you know, submit themselves to God but then not think that Muhammad was a prophet?
Speaker A
So after the time of the prophet, just like in the same way at the time of any prophet, you have to recognize the prophets that exist at your time or before you.
Speaker A
Okay? Right? So now that we're living in this time, obviously the prophet Muhammad came and established his whole religion, etc., the religion of Islam. So obviously you have to accept that. But at the time of Jesus it was accepting
Speaker A
the prophet Jesus and at the time of Moses accepting the prophet Moses and so on and so forth. But all of them taught the same message that God, the all-powerful creator of the universe, is one God.
Speaker A
Got it. So you have to accept that, you have to submit yourself to God, and you have to accept all the prophets to be Muslim.
Speaker A
Yes. Correct.
Speaker A
Okay. Got it. Okay. So again though, submit your will to what God are you talking about specifically? Because when you apply this to the prophets, right, obviously Islam claims Moses, Abraham, and stuff like that, but the theology of who God
Speaker A
is in the Quran, that's who you're talking about. It can't be anything out. Like, for example, that God, the all-powerful creator, sent the prophets. And believe in these prophets, believe in their message, but believe that God is a woman and be a
Speaker A
Muslim.
Speaker A
Excellent. So I assume let's go with father first, right?
Speaker A
No, no, a woman.
Speaker A
Oh, is a woman?
Speaker A
No, of course not.
Speaker A
No. Okay. And why is that?
Speaker A
Because God is not a man.
Speaker A
All right. So you have a specific ideology of humanity.
Speaker A
Yeah. Go ahead. Sorry.
Speaker A
Yeah. So you have a specific theology of who God is. You have to believe in that specific thing, that specific ideology. In order to be a Muslim,
Speaker A
you have to believe that God is one and is not a human creation, not an idol, not a plant, not a man, not a human woman, not... and you believe that he's anything outside of what the Quran and Hadith
Speaker A
tell you. No, no, you have to believe in God as described in the names of Allah,
Speaker A
the names, attributes of Allah.
Speaker A
Good. So what we can do now here, so we've got that foundation. Now, let's apply it to Jesus.
Speaker A
Sure. And let's see if Jesus had that theology. Does he teach, preach, follow, believe in the same God that we see in the Quran and the Hadith?
Speaker A
Excellent. And so how would you demonstrate that? So you guys are aware that, I think it's Proverbs 18, I think it is, that says, "Yahweh, you are my rock," right?
Speaker A
You said Proverbs 18? I think so. Can we or Psalms? Psalms 18? My bad. Psalms 18. My bad. I believe there's a few verses in there.
Speaker A
So, "Yahweh, you are my rock," right? So what I would do in that circumstance if somebody says, "Yahweh, you are my rock," I would say I reject that. I put a big X on the idea that God is a rock like you
Speaker A
said because it goes against our theology. It is not defined in our names and attributes of God. I reject the idea of God being a rock. Now I assume that that person is going to say, "Wait, we don't believe that God is a rock either."
Speaker A
So I'd say, "Okay, well then why would you call God a rock?" I say it's figurative.
Speaker A
I'd say, "Great, great. This is the important part. Figurative for what?" So now we have to shift over to figurative for what? So we leave the literal meaning and now we're shifting over here to this mystery box called the
Speaker A
figurative meaning. And the moment we open that mystery box, I say, "Figurative for what?" And they say, "Well, we say God meaning that we depend upon God." I would say, "Ah, one of..."
Speaker A
It has a meaning figurative for what? If you say the one that is a creator, he is loving, he's going to do or build you up in such a way where you reach your max potential, that is so he does. So this
Speaker A
is these are all names of Allah. So we accept all of these meanings. So is Allah a father then in any sense?
Speaker A
I just Okay, no problem. This is why I don't usually talk with my hands so much, but but I'm gonna I figured you try to you know, so I'm gonna maybe you guys can join me on this. We reject the
Speaker A
literal calling because any sense. So, so let me explain. So, if you if you say it in a literal way, then obviously the idea of being a father is that you're having children and passing on your nature is to pass on
Speaker A
your independent nature. Now, the moment you create something that's independent, it's dependent. So, now you have an independent dependent, it doesn't make sense. So, we reject that notion of literal. But the moment you clarify that like the Jews would,
Speaker A
like the Israelites would, they would say obviously we don't call ourselves literally the children of God. This is our culture. This is our figurative language. Figurative for what? You open that up, you see the mystery box and you
Speaker A
find certain meanings that are in line with Islam. We say, "Perfect. That's what we affirm." So, you affirm that Allah is a father in some sense.
Speaker A
Let's do it again. Let's run it back. I can see you're not you're not you're not uh you're not getting it. I reject it.
Speaker A
No problem. Yes. No. Yes. Yeah. Look, there's two sides. This side is the literal meaning.
Speaker A
There's a big hex. I said any sense. So, that includes metaphorical and figurative. Is he a father in any sense of the word?
Speaker A
I'm I'm explaining it to you. I don't accept the word father. Okay, good. Now when you say it's figurative, since I reject the word, you have to define figurative for what?
Speaker A
No, I don't because I said great. Dr. Naser, any sense that means any definition, any meaning whether it's figurative, any figurative meaning, any metaphorical meaning? Is there any sense of father that you can apply to Allah?
Speaker A
So you refuse to define your terms is what you're saying. So then I don't have to if look brother when I say any sense that means whatever you can think of and how you define father think of it.
Speaker A
Does that apply to Allah? Yes or no? Perfect. Is God a rock in any sense?
Speaker A
Yes. Yes. Yes. He's my he's our foundation. He's our foundation. Okay. So you say I can say so so you believe you believe that God is a rock.
Speaker A
I believe that Yahweh is my rock figuratively. Yes. Figurative as in foundation. I just said that with that definition.
Speaker A
I accept that definition as well. Okay. Good. I reject I reject the word rock because I don't believe God is then you don't believe then you're not you're not affirming what we're saying.
Speaker A
You really don't understand what I'm saying. I do. Look, this is what you're saying.
Speaker A
I I have trouble I have trouble believing you're not getting it. Well, let me let me say it. Let me just let me still man your point.
Speaker A
Hold on, guys. Did you know that over 80% of people that watch these videos are not subscribed and that's the best way to support this channel? So, let's give the audience a second to subscribe.
Speaker A
And if they want to financially support us, they could become a member. All right. Now, let's get back to the discussion. Sure.
Speaker A
Your point is we reject the terminology, but we can extract a meaning that is correct or proper.
Speaker A
Not we can. Not we can. Not that we can that the the culture does.
Speaker A
Bro, I'm talking to you. You just you just explained to me and broke down even Wait, let me help you out. Go ahead. You You just explained to me and broke down and you emphasized how it's like, "Okay, I got to do this
Speaker A
again. I got to do this again." I just repeated to you what you just said to me and you said, "No, that's nope. That's just the culture I'm talking look a Muslim you're Dr. Nasser Muslim. Is there any sense in which the
Speaker A
term father or meaning of father can be applied to Allah? Good. Yes or no?
Speaker A
Got it? Now let's say I'm walking in the middle of I don't know some new forest.
Speaker A
Okay. And I come across a tribe of people. Mhm. And I don't know how they use certain terms. I know how I use it. Mhm.
Speaker A
And they tell me that God is a rock or a father or something else, anything that does not comply with the names of Allah.
Speaker A
Instead of me telling them just that, no, no, I know exactly how you mean it because I know it's in your head. I'm not going to do that. I'm going to say, look, I know what I mean. Father is a
Speaker A
word that has a meaning. It means that you're giving birth to somebody based on giving passing on your nature. It means that you have sexual or reproductive organs. So, believe me, I reject all that. God does not have any sort of
Speaker A
reproductive organs where he's having babies. Okay, I reject all of that. Now, if they are the ones, not me, if they are the ones that want to clarify, we don't actually think of God as a literal father making actual babies in that
Speaker A
sense, I'll say you can go ahead and clarify what you mean. And the moment they use a definition that is in line with the names of God, I will let them know those are names of God in Islam.
Speaker A
Okay. Why is that complicated? All right. So the descriptions that you use the meaning of father let's say they use father in the sense of creator sustainer. So you can affirm like oh yeah that's good though these are
Speaker A
descriptions of Allah. Yes. So then can you then apply that and say yeah Allah you are the father in the sense that you are my creator and sustainer.
Speaker A
So since I don't use those terms because I'm not from that culture. I will say guys I understand your words. I don't need to adopt your language.
Speaker A
That's not what I asked. I didn't ask if you need to adopt it. I ask as a Muslim can you be a Muslim and affirm that Allah is your father in the sense that he's your creator and sustainer in as a
Speaker A
as a creator if you're using if you are using this term to strictly define God as a creator and sustainer I will let them know I fully agree with those ter names while I'm not interested in your terminology
Speaker A
okay so I'm being very clear but that was not good enough no it wasn't cuz cuz I'm not asking what could you give a yes or no answer yes is that possible just just really quick cuz I'm going to
Speaker A
I will not use that term and once Once it's explained, I will affirm which parts of the explanation I affirm. And in terms of the literal wording, I am not interested in adopting your language.
Speaker A
That's Yes. What's wrong with that? I'm just trying to move the conversation forward. I'm just trying to So, so it's a no. It's a no. You cannot be a Muslim and affirm that Allah is your father even in a sense that he's
Speaker A
your creator and sustainer. Correct. What? You just said you don't he can't do it.
Speaker A
No, you just you you just you just shifted. You just said even in the sense very specific. No, even in the sense that you are using it in these definition and sustainer.
Speaker A
Yeah. So, I affirm those definitions. So, do you not interested in using I'm not interested in using your terminology.
Speaker A
This is this is why we're stuck here cuz I'm not Are you seriously not getting this?
Speaker A
I get what you're saying, but I'm just Okay, let me I'll make I'll make it real easy.
Speaker A
No, no, please. Don't let I want you to know. I think we all understand what you're saying.
Speaker A
Yeah, we all understand. We understand what you're saying, but what you're saying is not answering my question.
Speaker A
I'm not asking what you're interested in using. I'm not I'm not asking if it's if it's oh if if it's your preference to use this type of ter terminology. I'm asking as a Muslim, can you can you affirm whether or not Allah is a I'm
Speaker A
sorry. Can you affirm that Allah is your father in the sense that he is your creator and sustainer? Can you Yes or no?
Speaker A
I don't use that terminology. I didn't ask if you use it. Can you can a Muslim do that?
Speaker A
Am I allowed to use that terminology? Not definitely not today because we're not in that culture.
Speaker A
Okay. Boom. Let's go with that. All right. Not today. You cannot. So, was there ever a time where you can be a Muslim and you can refer to Allah as your father in the sense that he's your creator and sustainer?
Speaker A
In the time of the Israelites when they used that terminology and they all knew what they were talking about. Yeah.
Speaker A
Okay. So, yes, Allah was once a father and then now he's not a father. Is that correct?
Speaker A
Okay. Let me let me explain why this is uh quite quite quite funny. So, you understand very well that so God was once a rock but he's not a rock.
Speaker A
This is Okay. So, your friend. He's a rock to this day. So, am I allowed to continue my thought?
Speaker A
Because you misrepresented. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Well, if I misrepresent me, I'll just keep cutting you off or what?
Speaker A
I I never misrepresented you. Okay. Okay. I'm sure you don't think so. Let's go.
Speaker A
Go ahead. My bad. So, um, now what I'm trying to say is I'll give an analogy that hopefully the Christians will appreciate. Maybe you guys will understand this.
Speaker A
Okay. In, uh, English you call him Jesus. In French, you call him Ju. In, uh, Spanish, call him Jesus. Am I right?
Speaker A
Now, let's come up with a a hypothetical language. Let's say there's a language out there that you pronounce the name Jesus as gay. Avery, in that hypothetical situation, are you going to say Jesus gay?
Speaker A
You're talking about his name. See how childish this is? No, it's not childish. Let me let me let me show you.
Speaker A
Yes or no? Yes or no? Can you say the words? Hold on. Let me let me actually help you out with your analogy. Your analogy is not analogous because we're not talking about simply a name. We're talking about
Speaker A
the identity of the figure. No, you're talking about a name. You're talking about a name.
Speaker A
No. No, I'm not. I'm talking about You're talking about an identifier. Remember, let me finish.
Speaker A
Go ahead. Yes. An identifier. So, as an identifier, who God is, he is the father. That's who he is theologically.
Speaker A
A name of Jesus is not a theological issue. We're talking about your theology. So, stop trying to bring up, oh, a random word in a random language applied to Jesus. That's not analogous.
Speaker A
We're talking about theology. Not yet. So if you So if we're if you're talking about can you apply certain things to Jesus theologically or to God theologically that do not fit the answer would be no. You understand what I'm
Speaker A
saying? But so we're talking about whether or not you can refer to Allah as your father theologically. And your answer is yes or no.
Speaker A
My answer is at the time of Jesus in a certain culture using the term rock was well known. Using the term father was well known. And okay if you don't want to hear it that's fine.
Speaker A
So was using the word bell. The Israelites called God bell too. Is that is that okay?
Speaker A
If at that time they were using terminology that was in line with a meaning that is actually comports and is incompatible with the names and attributes of God. What's the issue?
Speaker A
Okay, good. So when they when they said that God was their was their husband, is that okay for that was Allah once a husband?
Speaker A
Great. So if I come across a people that say to me we believe God is a husband, I will tell them I reject that language.
Speaker A
If they then say, wait, no, I know you're going to interrupt. That's okay. You were going to say, "I reject that language cuz I use the word husband a certain way." If they tell me in our culture, we have a certain figurative
Speaker A
language. We do not mean husband in a sense that he has a wife. We don't mean it that way. I would say, "Would you like to explain as they explain either when we open that mystery box and take a
Speaker A
look inside?" And we see that the figurative language means something else. Either it's going to comport and be incompatible with the names of God or it won't.
Speaker A
Hey, quick break from the conversation. I want to give a big shout out to Logos.
Speaker A
So, Logos is an app that helps people study the Bible. They also have courses, books, all types of materials that can help you learn and get deeper in your faith. So, Logos is offering everyone that subscribes to this channel a free
Speaker A
60-day subscription. So, all you need to do, whether you're Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant, go to the link in the description of this video, sign up for Logos for 60 days. It's 100% free. You could learn the Bible way better than
Speaker A
watching YouTube videos. It could even help you break down the words that you see in your Bible all the way back to the original Greek. So again, if you want to support this page or you just want to learn and get deeper with your
Speaker A
faith, go sign up for Logos. And now let's get back to the episode. So when I asked you when they referred to God as their husband, was there a time where there where Allah was a husband in a correct sense?
Speaker A
In the same sense he's a rock. How about that? So is that a yes in a culture that uses that language?
Speaker A
How is this complicated? It's complicated. It won't answer my direct question. He's just not saying yes or no. That's why of course because what is wrong with the explanation? I do not use this terminology today because calling God a
Speaker A
wrong asked you today and we understand that. We understand that. So that's why I don't use it.
Speaker A
I asked is at that time I got you. I already answered that. So is it a yes at that time was a husband?
Speaker A
At that time if they used it and they would explain it from that meaning they could say anything just the same.
Speaker A
So is that a yes one? At that time Allah was a husband. Was he a husband? Do you see what he's doing? This is this is the same thing as is Jesus gay. This exact same thing.
Speaker A
No it's not. It's a little That's all you're doing. You're playing you're playing games. Hold on. Hold on.
Speaker A
Hold on. It's a simple question. Hold on. Hold on. Let's I want you guys to be clear about this. There could be a language in the world where people use the name Jizu Jesus Yeshua Jesus and say gay.
Speaker A
Yeah. Just for No, no, no. Hold on, hold on. Please answer the question. Yeah, sure.
Speaker A
In that situation, is Jesus gay? If that's if that's what they term him as gay, we can call him we can refer to them as that name. Fantastic.
Speaker A
Absolutely. So now you see I answered you. So now it's your turn. So I said it. So yes, all as a husband at that time. If they use that terminology with this meaning, then I affirm the meaning.
Speaker A
Well, I'm not interested in the language. So, yes. Yeah. If they use that meaning, I'm I'm clarifying. Why is this not clear?
Speaker A
It's a yes. Allah was a husband in a correct meaning back then or no, he wasn't. We can't affirm that at all. So, is it yes, he was a husband back then?
Speaker A
Was that cor? Was that okay terminology to use for? Let me clarify now because I don't know about the history of can I go back to that time and know that that's what they meant. So I will not say that that was
Speaker A
affirm. But if that's what they mean then I I have no problem with a culture any culture saying any word as long as they clarify it.
Speaker A
Yeah. All right. I think just just to for clarification when you're using your um example, you're using the word gay as a name.
Speaker A
Mhm. He's using the word father as like a theology. Like a theology. So you want me to adopt the theology?
Speaker A
A theological analogy. He's using a theology, but don't adopt the theology. What are you guys talking about?
Speaker A
No, I'm just clarifying the difference between the analogies. That's all. Right. So he's trying to usher in an entire theology behind that word. No.
Speaker A
Why can't I Why can't If that's the case, Actually, I'm glad you clarified that. So you're telling me that he's using the word father, including an entire theology, and you're upset that I'm clarifying my theology. So, no, I'm
Speaker A
not upset. Well, you're saying you're saying you're not answering. You're not clear enough about your theology. Let me unpack it each and every single time, please. Like you just said, he's using that word for the sake of inserting his
Speaker A
theology. So, it's a really good idea for me not to say yes or no, but to unpack the theology. So, please don't act like this is unclear.
Speaker A
Let me respond to this. It is clear. Fantastic. I'm just trying to just ask the same question 50 times.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. That's why I want to try to get because he doesn't like the fact that I actually respond to this. Let me respond to this. Let me tell you why it's a theological issue, Dr. Nasser. Because
Speaker A
one, in your book in chapter 9:30, it says that whoever says that Jesus is the son of Allah, that they're cursed and they're copying the sayings of those who disbelieved before them. This is a theological issue in your religion.
Speaker A
Now you see it see ushering in. Yeah. Let's keep going. Let's keep going. Now we understand. In chapter 19:3, it says that there's none in the heavens or the earth that can come to the most beneficient except as a slave.
Speaker A
You can't in the context. fact start chapter 19 sir Miriam chapter 19 verse 93 I'll start in 88 because in 8 it starts with the idea of rejecting he's he's going to be packing on how many verses until which one's going to
Speaker A
answer he's on two so far my brother my brother I'm responding to what you just said you just had your little you know little thing respond to you if you're going to post the Quran can I can I respond to the first one or
Speaker A
which one would you like to respond to before we pack on more please hold on let's do this let's give him 30 seconds to a minute finish his point and then give you should I take notes and write down each
Speaker A
of the verses that he's citing or no? Um if you could try to stick to like I'll just use these two.
Speaker A
I won't I won't go to the others. Great. I'll just use these two. So you have throughout your Quran I won't even quote them because I don't want them to get overwhelmed. You have all these verses in your Quran specifically the two I
Speaker A
mentioned that directly connect the idea of God being a father or having children with a theological conundrum.
Speaker A
There you go. that if you affirm that Allah is a parent in any way, shape or form, then you are a disbeliever.
Speaker A
You would agree that being a believer and a disbeliever is a theological issue right?
Speaker A
Can you can you say the word disbeliever slower and more clearly? Sure. Disbelief. So, would you would you agree that that's a that being a believer and a disbeliever are theological issues?
Speaker A
Yeah. Awesome. So you agree that this father thing is a theological issue, not just a name and title. It's theology. And so if your theology does not match Jesus, Jesus can't be a Muslim. This is the problem. That's why you're trying to fix
Speaker A
this. Okay, perfect. Do the Jews use their terminology the same way? As who? As Jesus.
Speaker A
No. No, he didn't. No. Jesus referred to himself as the begotten son of God. The Jews are So there's no other begotten sons of God?
Speaker A
No. There's no other begotten son of God. No. In the Bible? No. Okay. Uh, so uh, you do realize that Jesus was speaking to the Israelites.
Speaker A
Speaking of who? Speaking to the Israelites. He was an Israelites speaking to the Israelites.
Speaker A
In what context? Every context. He was an Israelite speaking to Israelites. Are you not aware of this?
Speaker A
Well, there's some No, not every context. There's some context. He was just speaking to uh the Greeks. There sometimes he was just speaking to the Romans.
Speaker A
Speaking broadly speaking, who was he who sent to the lost sheep of Israel? No.
Speaker A
Sent to the lost sheep of Israel. Dealing with Canaanite women. Great. So, what I'm saying is that there was a certain theological uh implication at that time, a certain understanding of the term father. Yes or no?
Speaker A
Uh, it depends on the context. And are you doing your best to usher that completely out? Yes or no?
Speaker A
No. No. No. Are you just asserting one meaning, right? You just said the word father has a very specific theological meaning and apparently you divorced it from the entire Jewish history. Correct.
Speaker A
That's a good point. Let me let me respond to you. Great. Dr. Nasser, I am not limiting the term father, the theology of father to one meaning. According to Islam, listen.
Speaker A
According to according to Gohead, let me show you why. According to your religion, there's no meaning in which father can be used. You cannot be a Muslim and affirm theologically that Allah is your father in any sense.
Speaker A
And where does it say that in the Quran? And be a Muslim. Is that true?
Speaker A
So, let me let me explain this. God in the Quran says in what is it uh chapter 5:18 right good verse good verse right yes so what does it say it it says that the Jews and the Christians say we are the sons of Allah
Speaker A
his loved ones and it says then say why does he punish you for your sins perfect no you are but men and Allah punishes who he wills and he has mercy on he on who he wills and to him you will return
Speaker A
and how do you understand that verse that the Jews and Christians are saying that they are the sons of God metaphorically and Allah rejects That's it.
Speaker A
Wrong. What? Let me explain. Break it down. Let me explain. Do you think uh do you know what the word means?
Speaker A
No. You use it all the time. I've heard you say it many times. I I You know that word?
Speaker A
No. You don't say habibi all the time? Oh, habibi. There you go. What's the plural of habibi?
Speaker A
I don't know. Okay. That's what you're quoting. Okay. Do you think it's wrong for me to believe that somebody that that that people can become beloved to God?
Speaker A
Uh, no. No, it's not wrong. So when God says the Jews and the Christians, they say we are the children of God and we are his beloved ones. Is this saying that you can't? No, it's it's completely haram
Speaker A
and evil that a human being be beloved to God. No, of course not. Right?
Speaker A
It's perfectly allowed. So is it possible at the same time for someone to say as the Jews do, we're the children of God.
Speaker A
Clearly that verse is not condemning that concept. What is God condemning in this in this particular circumstance?
Speaker A
It's the idea of saying I know that I am super righteous according to God that I this is the same thing as chapter 53 verse uh I'm going to remember the verse Allah says what that he knows do not
Speaker A
Allah says commands do not ascribe purity to yourself don't ascribe and purity to yourself he knows who is more righteous so the criticism here is clearly not about the terminology because there's nothing wrong with somebody being you guys knowhib the
Speaker A
famous fighter Khabib. He fought here in Vegas, you know, fighting Conor McGregor. His name is Habib. Is that a haram term?
Speaker A
No. It's not a haram term. The most famous fighter in the world, his name is Habib. So clearly, God is not saying these are haram words. You can't use this terminology. So that verse that you I know you thought it was a big one for
Speaker A
you. It actually refutes you. Oh, it refuts me. Absolutely. All right. Let's bring Let's bring No. Can I go to Well, you said I You said I can respond to two.
Speaker A
Well, no. I said that's the whole point of packing on, is it not? I didn't I didn't do that to you, but okay.
Speaker A
You didn't pack on two and I said you and then tell me respond. I quoted two verses. I didn't go in and explaining two verses, right? So, what's the pointing a bunch of them?
Speaker A
When you just broke down, I just generalized the idea of what what of how Allah deals with the subject of being a having a son. What you just did was you gave a full ex Jesus on the verse and I
Speaker A
can't respond on your ex Jesus right now. So, but if let's just go to the second point.
Speaker A
Thank you. Okay. So in terms of where it says no one can come to God except as a servant.
Speaker A
I assume what your point is uh what you're trying to say here is that obviously there's a uh these are diametrically opposed. You can't be both a servant as well as like a child of God. Is that your point?
Speaker A
Yes. Then you just threw Isaiah 53 under the bus. Is that your point? Yeah.
Speaker A
Okay. Awesome. All right. So let's suffering servant, right? Yeah. Yeah. Son of God. Let's work back.
Speaker A
You said you said yes. I work for I work backwards. You're you're welcome for the clip. This is going to embarrass you.
Speaker A
Yellow. Isaiah 53 is not Islamic theology. Dr. That's why I asked you and you Dr.
Speaker A
Nasser. You asked me about what I understand about your Quranic text. Yeah. Your Quranic text has nothing to do with biblical theology.
Speaker A
What's your point about So I can a I can have a a position on a Quranic text without it having anything to do with Thank you very much. without it having to do with my biblical understanding of my biblical text. That that that don't
Speaker A
make no sense. So, uh thank you for that clip. Right. Chapter 5:18. Now, let's go back with your iso Jesus in chapter 5:18. You said it's not about the terminology. It's exactly about the terminology. That's why it mentions it. We the Jews and
Speaker A
Christians say, what do they say? Oh, we are the sons of Allah, his loved ones.
Speaker A
Then say and his loved ones. Why does that's what I said. You just you said sons of a lot of loved ones you have and his loved ones. So it means there's two terms going on.
Speaker A
Sure. No. No worries. And he denies both. No. Wrong. What he said? So you just said he denied.
Speaker A
He denies what happened to you. He denies both when they're calling them their sons and and and his loved ones.
Speaker A
Let me show you how. So it's wrong. Look at this. Invoc this verse. He said he even acknowledges that the Jews are referring to themselves as children of God in a metaphorical way in the in the way that they follow the
Speaker A
prophets and that God looks after them. And guess what Allah says? No. He says no. Why then does he punish you for your sins? Implying that if you were his sons, his sons and his beloved ones, let's let's combine the two, right?
Speaker A
Because the two of them they're two things. They're both terms and you're denying both. Makes sense. So that's what your hey deal with your Quran not me. So he says no why then does he punish you for your sins? This
Speaker A
is in direct contrast to Moses in Deuteronomy Deuteronomy chapter 8 where God says to Israel that as a father I discipline you just as a father disciplines his sons so I discipline you in the wilderness and punish them for
Speaker A
their sins. Take them through the hard times. So according to Jesus's theology and Moses theology, God does ex God does punish a son for his sins, his beloved ones for the sins. But in in in uh in Islam, if you are his son and his
Speaker A
beloved one, that's not what he would do. Do you see? This is showing the theology in in the Quran is completely contrary to the theology of Jesus and the prophets. That's why he's not a Muslim.
Speaker A
Good. Yeah. So Allahh about eight different categories of people he describes as those who he loves.
Speaker A
Indeed Allah loves. It talks about different people. Those who are patient, those who rely upon God, those who uh uh those who have tawa sons those who are so he loves the what is happening.
Speaker A
Did you see how quiet it was? Look men you was chiming in when I was talking. Come on.
Speaker A
For the listeners for the listeners, let's like give them like 30 seconds to Thank you. So what I'm trying to say is that very obviously throughout the Quran, Allah t affirms that he loves people. So your objective which is to
Speaker A
say that chapter 5 verse 18 is blaming these people and saying this is evil language and you can't use this language. Clearly if you say that it's wrong to use both of these terms then that would mean that you can't call
Speaker A
yourself beloved of God but throughout the Quran people are beloved to God. Now we don't use that terminology. That's why God specifically says the Jews and the Christians use this type of terminology right now. We recognize that and we understand that. Why don't you?
Speaker A
Because of your messed up theology. You guys you guys started attributing a literal son to God. And so that's why in soda 9 they said God doesn't actually have kids at that time. If you want to say these are children the two parties
Speaker A
in in the world children of God and children of the devil. When you use terms like that we're like yeah we get you. We don't use that terminology but we get you. If you're going to twist that into RA R Roman paganist ideas that
Speaker A
include the idea that oh the emperor is a child of God or a representative of God on earth and then you mix Christianity with all this and you have all these issues now then it's much better for God to clarify and say what
Speaker A
even when you use this terminology do not attribute purity to yourselves. It's not saying that the the terminology is uh completely prohibited because if it was completely prohibited then what that would imply is that hhib is not something allowed.
Speaker A
Now we don't use that terminology. We don't use that terminology. I want to be clear about that. So, we don't have to use that because obviously it got corrupted and so it has a bunch of different meanings. But we understand
Speaker A
what people mean. And that verse is talking about do not attribute purity to yourself. Especially when the idea is that look, you could be a good person some days and a bad person others. The idea that, oh, I I I I
Speaker A
joined a group. I'm either Jewish or I'm Christian. Therefore, I'm just beloved to God no matter what. I am considered so pure that I'm a son of God in all circumstances. I understand what you mean. You're talking about just being a
Speaker A
righteous person. And I'm letting you know that that level of arrogance is not allowed.
Speaker A
Okay. Can I Let's clear. Okay. So, there's two things that I noticed. One, you contradicted yourself.
Speaker A
Great. Because you just said that you don't use the termhabib, but you did affirm that Habib calls himself Habib, and there's nothing wrong with that.
Speaker A
You just misunderstood. I No, I I I think I do understand what you're saying that being Habib Allah, you cannot affirm that of yourself.
Speaker A
Of course, there's people named Habibah. I think my great-grandfather was named Habibah. Then, but then why did you just say you can't use the term? You can't attribute it to yourself. My listen listen.
Speaker A
Got it? Can somebody be Look, look, look. It's like it's like the word righteous here.
Speaker A
Let's make it real simple for you. Can I walk around saying I'm a righteous person? I'm a righteous person. Look, let God judge. I'm a I'm aspiring to be a righteous person. I'm aspiring to be beloved by God. I want to be beloved by
Speaker A
God. And you know what? That guy over there, he seems like he's beloved by God. I think he is. But do I know for a fact that we are the loved ones of God?
Speaker A
That's arrogant. So you can't you can't as a Muslim, you can't affirm that you're the loved one of God.
Speaker A
So believers are beloved to God. Allah says, let me explain. Allah says, "Allah loves those who are patient. Do I try to exercise patience?" Of course.
Speaker A
I understand. Dr. Nasin, my question was very simple. As a Muslim, can you affirm for yourself that you are beloved of God?
Speaker A
No, I will not. I will not I will not arrogantly declare that I know God loves me. No, God judges me. I don't I don't tell God what to think.
Speaker A
This this is another this is another thing that is contrary to the to the the teachings of Jesus. The teaching of Jesus. Jesus says that you are the loved ones of your father. Just like he takes care of the of the birds, just like he
Speaker A
dresses the liies. How much more are you worth to him than these? Jesus says that those of us who are believers, those of us who are in the kingdom, we are beloved of God. This is another contrary thing with Muslim theology and Christ's
Speaker A
theology. It's completely opposite. That's number one. Wait, he's going to pack on remember I said I said two things.
Speaker A
It's adding to the point. Sure. Number number two, you said that um that this term of father and these other terms uh are are are basically removed because people misused them.
Speaker A
They attributed them to false things, false worship. And so that's why Allah took the initiative to remove these these terminologies from from the theology basically correct to correct them. Right? Okay. So now this is where I think that you messed up here as well
Speaker A
because in chapter chap in chapter five it's I think it's verse number 73 or 72 if I'm not mistaken. Do you are you are you familiar with who it says the Christians say Allah is?
Speaker A
You have to remind me. It says that the Christians or though I'm sorry it doesn't say Christians specifically but it says those who say that the Messiah is Allah. So they were referring to the Messiah is Allah. Is
Speaker A
that an incorrect or correct way to use the term Allah? to call Allah to call Messiah the to call the Messiah Allah. No, we don't call.
Speaker A
So then why do you still use the term Allah if it was being misused by the Christians or the people calling the Messiah Allah?
Speaker A
This is why I should have responded to the first point. What was the first point? Are you Are you Yeah, I'm you don't have a response right now. You're stalling. Can you respond to what I just said?
Speaker A
Why is it the case? Why do I I'll repeat it. Why do you use the term Allah today when it was being misused by those who were calling the Messiah Allah when your point was that Allah deleted the term father and
Speaker A
deleted all these other terms from the theology because people attributed these things to false idols, false gods, corrupt theology, Roman Greek theology and mythology. So he removed this stuff because it was misused.
Speaker A
So you have to go. Why? So why didn't he mis why didn't he remove the term Allah when it was being misused by those who were saying that the Messiah is Allah?
Speaker A
So what what is the solution here to to now get rid of the term God?
Speaker A
Don't ask me. This was your point. This is the weirdest. I've never I never imagined someone would say that because somebody said God is I don't know a frog. And now we have to get we have to keep the word frog but get rid of the
Speaker A
word God. That's your point. What you said that listen your point was and I'll repeat it again because I I can still man you over and over. You said and you agreed that that that you said this. you agreed that I understood your
Speaker A
your I represented you well. Your point was is that the reason why Allah got rid of terms like sons and daughters and father was because people misused these terms and applied it to false theology in Greek mythology and mixed it up. I
Speaker A
got your answer. I got so they're good. So they're mixing up the term Allah with false theology saying that the Messiah is Allah.
Speaker A
Why then did he not get rid of the term Allah? Because he never gets rid of the term God. the the term God itself is fine.
Speaker A
That's the stable actual definition of who God is, right? So, you use the term God and then you could attribute names to God like a husband or I think there's one verse that said, "Oh, rock." There's another one that says it's like a
Speaker A
birthing mother or something like that, screaming in pains of birth or something like this, right? So, these add-ons, these tags, if they get completely messed up and twisted, then naturally you're going to say, "Listen, you guys have a very messed up theology. You
Speaker A
shouldn't use these types of terms because apparently some people took it literally, and that's a real big problem." Now, can I get back to the first verse? I don't remember what it was.
Speaker A
So, no, you're not going to get rid of the base concept of God because somebody said, "Oh, look over there. This idol is a God." Well, now we have to throw away the word God because he attributed that
Speaker A
idol to God. No. What? Okay. Anyway, what was the first verse? What was the first one?
Speaker A
He was talking about God loving us. Perfect. Thank you. Thank you. Now we got it. Being compared to the beloved of the father. Yeah. Exactly. Are there no such thing as hypocrites in Christianity?
Speaker A
Sure. Okay. So, doesn't Jesus say when they said come to him saying, "Lord, Lord," he said, "Get away from me. I never knew you." Some of them.
Speaker A
Yes. And doesn't that mean that they're not guaranteed? because they thought they were guaranteeing their the hypocrites aren't the but the ones who call the ones who are not hypocrites who identify him as Lord gets into heaven. I don't know. My point is you
Speaker A
guys got to drop that you got to drop this this this line of like what you don't know oh I feel so sorry for you you're not going to heaven when what is it there's a particular verse that says
Speaker A
you might lose your what's it called secured position right there's that verse that specifically says that you can lose your secure position why because what verse yeah 2 Peter 3:17 to18 be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the
Speaker A
error of the lawless and fall from your secure position is this talking about like security guards no secure position means faith you have solid faith but it's not guaranteed. You can fall from your secure position. There are such
Speaker A
people that say that they're Christian. They think that they're guaranteed, but they're hypocrites. They run to Jesus saying, "Lord, Lord," he says, "Get away from me. I never knew you." Lawless people. Anomos, right? Anomos lawless. Doesn't Paul talk
Speaker A
about being anomos at some point. Are you asking for me a response or That was a question.
Speaker A
Okay. So, I'm I'm going to give a full response if that's okay. Dr. Nasser Yolo. Okay. So, um, we're we're not we're not talking about hypocrites, brother. We're talking about what God affirms for himself. I don't care about
Speaker A
the hypocrites. Jesus himself says that we are the beloved of the father. You didn't touch that. But you went on to talk about hypocrites for some reason.
Speaker A
That's relevant. What religion are they? The hypocrites. Yes. They claim to be Christians. Who cares?
Speaker A
There you go. All right. What What What about the true the true Christians? Are they obviously true believers go to heaven?
Speaker A
What are you talking about? But are you affirmed? True believers are beloved to God.
Speaker A
Obviously, you ask me if I'm if I'm arrogant enough to say I know I'm perfect. I know I'm I know that I'm solid with God. I've never had hypocrisy in my heart. No, the whole purpose of life.
Speaker A
That's not what I was saying. You I don't know what you're talking about. I'm so please follow me.
Speaker A
Sure. You were talking about how it in Islam you cannot refer to yourself as the beloved of God. That's what you said.
Speaker A
And but in Christianity, you can and you are affirmed as the beloved of God. You specifically That's what I'm saying. Missed it. And so, hold Let me let me I can just clarify that one point. Go ahead. There's a
Speaker A
difference between me attributing to myself versus the idea of people being beloved. That's the difference.
Speaker A
I I I know. Great. Go ahead. So, what I'm saying is is that in Christianity with Jesus's theology, you can affirm that you are the beloved of God. Matter of fact, you can go confidently before God and affirm
Speaker A
yourself as the beloved of God. This is what Jesus teaches. The moment you become Christian, the the the second you're a believer, the moment you're a believer, there's no hypocrites. There's no such thing as hypocrit.
Speaker A
No, that's that has nothing to do with hypocrisy. Please focus. Focus. Are you joking? The point is is that the theology that Jesus is preaching is opposite of the theology we're finding in Islam. So you can't say Jesus is a
Speaker A
Muslim when he has the opposite theology. When he has the opposite idea of who God is, what he desires from us, who we are to God versus Islam, you can't say he's a Muslim when now uh uh talking about your passport. Um
Speaker A
No, no. Can I respond to this in just a second? Let him do his whole thing in a second. Let him respond. I don't want to change the subject.
Speaker A
Are you going to change the subject? Yes. Well, I wanted to cuz he mentioned a lot before he just made a huge blunder about the name of Let me catch the blunder before you change the subject. No, you don't want
Speaker A
You don't want You don't You want me to catch on the blunder, bro? He got away with the Allah thing with the the the the term God.
Speaker A
You don't drop the term God. Look. Yes. I just want to do a quick response to that.
Speaker A
Hilar No. No. You just said you just said every person that converts to Christianity, every person that converts to Christianity is now beloved the second they become Christian. And that means they're all beloved. They can say confidently that I'm beloved. That means
Speaker A
what? that if they're all beloved and they're all correct and they're all saved, there are no hypocrites. He acted like he didn't get it. I know you got it.
Speaker A
That's not what that means. That's so silly. I think the point of Yeah, exactly. There are hypocrites.
Speaker A
I I personally think that the point of you explaining that Jesus teaches us that we're loved by God is like very important.
Speaker A
Yeah. So, I would like to kind of like stick to that point cuz I feel like the definition of a law thing is important, but we're bouncing back and forth between two topics. The reason why the reason why I'm bringing that up is because it
Speaker A
brings a a huge hole in his argument on why Allah takes away the term father or son and daughter because it's misused but but unfortunately for him the term Allah is misused as well and they were calling the Messiah Allah. So why doesn't he
Speaker A
take away that? That destroys his entire argument that oh well the only reason why it's not it's not used anymore is because it was misused. No, because if that was the case, if it was consistent, the word Allah would be gone, too. But
Speaker A
it's not. So, you can't say that this is why the term father is no longer used.
Speaker A
Matter of fact, you have to affirm that it was used before in Islamic theology and then show me where it's abregated.
Speaker A
That's what you have to do. That's why that's important to respond. And I definitely get that. I feel like we've said that already like two to three times in a circle.
Speaker A
How many times is father even mentioned in the Old Testament? There's a number of times that he's called that the they're called the sons and there's a number of times where he's called father and none of them apply to Allah.
Speaker A
And my point is that clearly this isn't like the the standard name for God.
Speaker A
Right? It's the standard identity for God. No standard identity in the Old Testament is Yahweh that he is your and it says Yahweh is your father who created how many times?
Speaker A
A bunch. You got Isaiah multiple times. uh in Deuteronomy multiple times, in Malachi multiple times, and it also says Yahweh is your rock.
Speaker A
Okay. Absolutely. And guess what? If people worship rocks, there's nothing wrong with saying, "You know what? You should stop saying that God is a rock because these literal idoltors think that you're speaking literally and you're going to say, "No,
Speaker A
no, no. Don't get the get rid of the word rock. Let's hold on to the word rock. Get rid of the word God. That's your solution." No. See, this is this that was your solution. Come on, man. Follow along
Speaker A
with your own. Are you joking? You're the one who said the solution is getting rid of the words, not me. That was your argument. So don't try to put on your stupid argument unto me. That was silly.
Speaker A
I'm showing you. I'm showing you. Yeah. No, it's not. I'm not calling you stupid. The argument was dumb. But you're then you're applying the argument to me like that's my position. My Let me be it clear to you. My position is not
Speaker A
let's get rid of the word because people misuse it. Guess who said that, ladies and gentlemen? Dr. Nasser said that. I'm saying that you can get you can correct the meaning and give them like hey like for example okay hold let me finish
Speaker A
let's run with this let me finish go ahead I appreciate it thank you you can correct the meaning that yes God is your rock in this way not that God is an actual literal rock inimate object so you the the there's nothing wrong with
Speaker A
the word it's the meaning that's the problem but with you guys it's meaning and terminology for father it's wrong you're a disbeliever you're going to hell you cannot refer to Allah as your father. Never have, never can, never
Speaker A
will. So, so for you to pretend like this is once okay in some way or oh, you know what, not the word, but I see what you guys are talking about. As a Muslim, you cannot. Which is why when you bring
Speaker A
up Hold on. Which is why when you bring up Jesus speaking to Jews, this is what I wanted to touch on specifically. Jesus, don't let him change.
Speaker A
I'm on the same thing. Trust me, y go for it. When you talked about who did Jesus talk to to the Jews, right? So he talked to them in a way that they they would understand. Correct? This is what this
Speaker A
is an analogy that Jesus gave them a parable. He said that there was a a vineyard owner who gave his vineyard. Let let uh someone the tenants borrow his vineyard.
Speaker A
Watch. Just pay attention. I promise it's going to click. I got to write these down cuz I I have a response for both.
Speaker A
No, no, no. Just pay attention. Go for it. He said that there's tenants that the vineyard owner gives uh uh lets them borrow.
Speaker A
21 Matthew. Then he begin. He goes away. He then sends servants. Yeah. I'm glad you know it. He then sends servants to go collect the pro the produce of the vineyard. But when he sends his servants, guess what?
Speaker A
They kill him. They reject him. They put him out, beat them. Then what did he what does he do? Then he says, you know what? I'll send my son. They will surely respect my son. And then when they when
Speaker A
the son appears, they say, "Oh, this is the heir, the one who is in the inheritor. If we take him and kill him, we can take his inheritance." They kill him and throw him outside. Jesus says, "What do you think he was he's going to
Speaker A
do to those tenants?" They said, "He's going to destroy them, take them, and give the vineyard to someone else." So, notice what Jesus does. The v the the tenants is Israel.
Speaker A
The servants being sent to Israel, the prophets. The son of the vineyard owner, who is God, is Jesus. Jesus makes a difference, a distinction between himself as the son of God and the prophets and Israel.
Speaker A
Is that okay for Jesus to do to separate himself as the unique son of God apart from the servants, the prophets, and apart from Israel?
Speaker A
Can I speak? Can I have us floor? Go ahead. No interruptions. If you can respond to this directly as long as you don't interrupt, that would be great.
Speaker A
So God is the literal thing of what we're talking about, right? We're talking about God.
Speaker A
Yeah. Father is figurative. It makes sense to get rid of the figurative meaning when it's causing problems. Just imagine if somebody says this idol is our creator and then he's suggesting get rid of the term creator but creator is a literal term because he
Speaker A
literally created us. We're going to throw out that term. No, I'm fine throwing out figurative terms if that is an issue. It makes sense.
Speaker A
Yeah. Throw out literal terms that God is our creator. Oh guys, they called that this one creator, so we have to throw it out.
Speaker A
Please tell me that's clear to you because that is a bad argument. Now point number two. Unfortunately for you, you just said your argument is bad.
Speaker A
You just said your argument is bad. Yeah, that's exactly what I said. Yeah, that's that's been your argument the whole time.
Speaker A
You don't have to always posture like you're winning. I get it. I get it. You have to always posture like you're winning.
Speaker A
I know it hurts. It's okay. This guy's always winning. He can't lose. I know. It's so It's so sad, right? Look, man. If you need if you need your ego that badly to me, I'm chilling, bro.
Speaker A
At what point do you stop interrupting? No. No. Cuz he has to keep reminding the audience that he's winning. Otherwise, they might think that he's not winning.
Speaker A
I'm winning. I didn't say that. So, so he speaks, I'm quiet, right? When I speak, he has to remind them. Guys, I'm better. Guys, I'm winning. Guys, I'm right. He just said he's wrong. Right. I just said I'm wrong.
Speaker A
He's upset, guys. Did you see? Let's just let him go. Yeah, I am. I'm Bro, look. Look.
Speaker A
Louder and more confident, please. Okay. Okay. Please finish your point. Fantastic. Now, Matthew 21 doesn't help you very much.
Speaker A
Perfect. Because we're talking about people understanding in context, right? And so, what did the people understand in context?
Speaker A
When you go through the entire parable, at the end of it, apparently there was a bunch of Pharisees and they want to get rid of him. They want to do something to harm him.
Speaker A
And everybody concluded in the crowd, they were like, "We can't attack him or do anything bad to him because there's all these people that believe in him and they believe that he is clearly the son of God." No, wait. That's not what it
Speaker A
says. What does the final verse say? What do all the people conclude? Is Jesus a really bad orator? Is he really bad at communication? Or is it possibly the case that after giving that entire parable, the people who clearly believed
Speaker A
in him and understood exactly what he meant and actually wanted to support him concluded that he's a what? What is the final word in that entire passage? That they concluded he was a what?
Speaker A
Matthew 21. Guys, what do they conclude that he was? We're we're trying not to cut you off.
Speaker A
Prophet. Yeah. Cuz if if I engage, he going to be he going to cry.
Speaker A
If you ask questions, he's going to respond and then Very nice. Yeah. They concluded he was a prophet.
Speaker A
And so I am perfectly fine understanding that when those people in that context use certain language and they come to certain conclusions especially the sincere ones around him that want to understand him and they did a good job
Speaker A
of understanding him conclude that he's a prophet then I'm going to conclude the same thing. Now if you later on 2 years later say you know what they concluded he was a prophet but you know what I conclude something different that's
Speaker A
great that's fantastic you go ahead but I'm fine concluding what they concluded. So, are you saying like in the Bible Jesus didn't teach that God was our father?
Speaker A
That's what you've gotten this whole time. I'm just asking. Yeah. Like in general because it it sounds like you're saying that Okay, let me explain it to you.
Speaker A
Okay. If at their time they had a culture which the Jews still maintain till today, so I can't believe this is confusing for you guys. They still maintain this. It's figurative language.
Speaker A
So if he used that figurative ledge, which I don't know for a fact because I didn't live 2,000 years ago, but we have reports and it seems there's a lot of reports about this. So let's say that either a it's inauthentic or b it is
Speaker A
authentic and they use it in the same culture that we can literally track till today.
Speaker A
Mhm. And c that this is how the Jews used it before him and after him and even in the New Testament itself, you have people talking about being the blessed be the peacemaker for they the children of God
Speaker A
were the sons of God. Mhm. So why is this like oh my god this guy he's crazy for thinking that maybe it's figurative and all I'm saying is that in Islam since you guys took this idea of a
Speaker A
literal son and since that makes no sense logically maybe it's better instead of having a completely messed up theology to believe in one God only not a a god that's having babies or excuse me one baby. He tells us be fruitful
Speaker A
multiply. Apparently he only had one kid. That's fine. I don't know why but that's cool. So apparently he's got one kid right?
Speaker A
They're all his children. Oh, so we are now. Well, I'm just Oh, yeah. Exactly. So the So see see what's happening.
Speaker A
Can I engage with I I I I do. I'm just trying to like for me I'm not like this theological deaf person, but I But I'm glad you saw the little the pivot.
Speaker A
We are, but we're not. And then we are. So this is exactly the point.
Speaker A
I would say I would say that we are. But I'm just asking like to me in the Bible it seems kind of clear that Jesus is teaching us that God is the father.
Speaker A
It's explicit. It's like very clear that he teaches God is the father and God also loves us.
Speaker A
Like we are the beloved of God. He loves the believers and God loves the believers in this go around telling everybody I know I'm going to heaven.
Speaker A
I'm telling you cuz there's such thing as hypocris which apparently you guys do and don't affirm simultaneously. But you guys do affirm that God loves us. Brian, let me respond to this real. Okay, thank you. So, uh, number one, Romans 5
Speaker A
chapter, uh, Romans 5'8 says that while we were still sinners, that God shows his love for us. That while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. So, unlike Islam where Allah only loves those who believe. He does not love the
Speaker A
unbeliever. Christ Jesus loved the disbeliever and the sinner while we were still in rebellion against him. Complete different. Matthew 21, you said that you conclude that Jesus is a prophet after all of this.
Speaker A
They did. They did. Well, and and you said that you will do the same. So So don't Yeah. Don't distance yourself from it. You said you do the same. I want to ask you then. So you affirm that in
Speaker A
Matthew 21 when Jesus calls himself the son of God, distinct from the the prophets and distinct from Israel, the one who inherits what God owns in the heir of God. You're saying that he's a good Muslim prophet. Saying that?
Speaker A
May I respond? Yes, please. Directly though. Yes. Let me clarify. I am not saying that I agree with everything being said in the Bible.
Speaker A
I already said this. I already made this clear. My initial initial position is that I'm not affirming everything.
Speaker A
You're affirming it. So, I'm trying to argue from your position. If you believe in this passage and you're saying clearly, it's so obvious. Anybody with half a brain is going to figure out that he's clearly the son of God. I'm
Speaker A
pointing out to you that the people at the time who spoke that language and knew that culture and were listening to his words, if you're going to call him the logos, maybe he knows how to talk, right? maybe he knows how to communicate
Speaker A
and if they all came to the wrong conclusion then that's kind of a problem. So if that story actually took place and if those people made that conclusion then I can understand why they would conclude he's a prophet. But
Speaker A
do I am I refer am I am I asserting that everything in that in these gospels are 100% true. No. But I'm saying that generally speaking when you look at scholarship as they have the earlier you go in terms of the Bible passages you
Speaker A
find that the christologology is very low and as you get further and further away from Jesus the christologology gets higher and higher. So what you have are scholars concluding that Jesus was a Jewish messianic uh preacher, apocalyptic preacher, and so therefore
Speaker A
that is in line with Islam. Does that mean I affirm everything in the Bible?
Speaker A
No, you're going way off of what I asked you. Can I Thank you. So no, I don't affirm the Bible. I don't affirm the Bible. But if I were to accept that passage and I would say he's a prophet because they they did, too.
Speaker A
I got you. So my question wasn't whether or not you accept him as a prophet.
Speaker A
That's good. I already know you do that. That wasn't my question. My question was based on what you said that based on the parable them concluding that Jesus is a prophet and you would too. That's what you said. I also conclude that he's a
Speaker A
prophet based off of this. So my question is this. Can Jesus be a Muslim?
Speaker A
Would a good Muslim prophet give a parable where he ex uh where he claims to be the son of God distinct from the prophets and distinct from the nation of Israel as the heir of God and the one
Speaker A
who inherits what God owns. Is that a Muslim prophet? No. No, definitely not. Thank you. He just affirmed Jesus is not a Muslim in the Bible.
Speaker A
No, I So, yeah, exactly right that I totally I already can see that a long time ago. I already can see there are plenty of uh biblical passages that I completely don't understand and don't know how to reconcile whatsoever because
Speaker A
um yeah like I said uh him you know you guys say that he becomes a curse right this is this is no I definitely don't agree with the Bible so my my point is this there are other passages for
Speaker A
example like uh Luke 2:52 right Jesus is growing in wisdom right what does that have to do with him being a Muslim because men grow in wisdom and so if a the so let me explain.
Speaker A
Okay, the Muslim version of Jesus is that he's a man. He's a prophet and he's growing in wisdom.
Speaker A
Do you think that this passage is referring to Jesus as just a man or do you assert that this is talking about Jesus the hypothatic union both fully man?
Speaker A
Yes, it's talking in regards to his humanity for sure. So there you go. So there you go. So how many so here's my question that we're not talking about whether or not Jesus is God.
Speaker A
Let me ask you Jesus could be a Jesus could be just a mere man and not be a Muslim.
Speaker A
My question is this. How does this prove he's a Muslim? Let me let me explain. How many passages would you say in the Bible are strictly affirming his humanity?
Speaker A
There's a there's a bunch. There's a bunch. So, would you say those are all Muslim versions of Jesus as a man?
Speaker A
No. Are they Christian versions? Yes. Yes. Because he's just a man. Number one, it doesn't say that he's just a man. It affirms his his humanity. It never says that he's just a man. That's number one. Number two, notice what
Speaker A
you're doing here. Notice the shift. Now, you're trying to shift to the deity of Christ when that's not the subject.
Speaker A
Let me let me for the sake of this imaginary world, let's say Jesus is not God. For the sake of this conversation, smart move.
Speaker A
Prove he's a Muslim because he submitted himself to one God as a prophet. Which God?
Speaker A
The creator of the universe. Who did he say that was? I believe the term he used was uh was it Adonai?
Speaker A
No, he didn't use that. What's the term that he used in the Bible? He used Abba.
Speaker A
No, not did he use Abba? Here, O Israel, the Lord thy God is one God. How do you say it?
Speaker A
Oh, hold on. Oh, hold on a second. Did he use the term aba? Yes. And we already What does aba mean?
Speaker A
It means father. Is that a good Muslim? Like I said in the Are you serious? Are we circling back?
Speaker A
Stop stalling. You're really good at this, huh? I am. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, check this out.
Speaker A
Let me explain to you. He was an Israelite speaking to Israelites. And Jews today use the term father to not No, they're Jews and they're speaking in a context.
Speaker A
It's a wrap. Does it's a rap? Huh? Do you believe in that your God is a rock? Is it a rock?
Speaker A
Yes. He's a rock. You worship a rock. There you go. Look at how childish this foundation, man.
Speaker A
You guys are You guys are really This is like Why do you Why do you tolerate this?
Speaker A
How do you tolerate this? Is your God a rock? Yes, I already said yes.
Speaker A
Then that makes sense. You worship the creation, not the creation. That's what Moses said. He's the rock of Israel.
Speaker A
Okay. So, let me ask you this. Let me ask you. So, you want to avoid Luke 252 or not?
Speaker A
I'm I'm Look, let's do it. Luke 2:52. Sure. How does Luke 2:52 prove that he is a Muslim, my brother?
Speaker A
Okay, I see what you're doing. Okay, do you understand? Uh, okay. Let me ask you this. Maybe this will clarify for you.
Speaker A
You can clarify for yourself. Okay. Was Moses a Christian? Um, you can say, "Yeah, I was a follower of the Messiah." Answer. Answer. See how childish that is?
Speaker A
I just said, "Yeah, he said he was a Christian." Yeah. Yeah. So, so he's a Christian.
Speaker A
Technically terminology. Yeah. So, isn't that complete anacronistic? No, that's not anacronistic. No, cuz he was a follower of the Messiah. Christ was is was the one.
Speaker A
So the religion of Christianity has no meaning. Can I answer you? No. The religion of the religion of Christianity is to be a follower of Christ. The follower and believer of the Messiah. Moses believed and followed the Messiah especially in
Speaker A
the wilderness. Matter of fact, Jude 1 4:5 says that it was Jesus who saved the people out of the land of Egypt. That's Jude 1:5. So according to the scripture, it was Jesus leading Moses and the Egyptians out of uh the land of Egypt
Speaker A
and into the wilderness and into the promised land. Moses was a follower of Christ and therefore a Christian by terminology.
Speaker A
So was he a Jew? Absolutely. So he's a Jew. Ethically ethically. So he was a Jew and a Christian.
Speaker A
Absolutely. Did he ever use the words Jew or Christian? Um not to my knowledge.
Speaker A
Great. So he's not a Jew, not a Christian, but a Jew and a Christian.
Speaker A
Wait, why are you saying he's not a Jew or not? Because he never he never claimed to be.
Speaker A
Why? Why does that mean that he's not a Jew or a Christian? He never taught a religion called Judaism.
Speaker A
But why? How does that make him not a Jew? Uh how does uh uh uh Jesus not saying that I'm a Muslim make him not a Muslim?
Speaker A
That's not my argument. Did I Brian, you've been listening? Have I ever brought up the argument Jesus never said he was a Muslim, so therefore he's not a Muslim. Is that what I said?
Speaker A
What's it called? I never brought that. I believe you guys call the fall of equivocation.
Speaker A
Just really quick, just really quick. Try your best not to straw man me. Sure. Because I would agree with you that that's a weak argument for Jesus not to say I'm a Muslim so that means I'm No, that's a weak argument. I would
Speaker A
never use that. Deal with the arguments that I'm using. Matter of fact, Luke 2:52 like you keep holding on to. Let's deal with that. Yeah.
Speaker A
Luke 2:52, Jesus grew in wisdom and stature before men and God. Yeah. How does that prove he's a Muslim?
Speaker A
Because he's not God and he's a man and he's a prophet. He's called He called himself a prophet. He asserted that he's a prophet. He taught the oneness of God.
Speaker A
He taught exactly what every prophet teaches. And he doesn't affirm Christianity because he's growing in wisdom. And God doesn't grow in wisdom.
Speaker A
He's all wise. I got you. So any man who claims to be a prophet and claims to be a follower of God as a Muslim.
Speaker A
See, this is exactly my point. Uhhuh. This is exactly my point. My point, too. I'm I'm Look, I'm going with you, bro. I'm going with you on your reasoning. And so I'm I'm taking your reasoning to its comfort.
Speaker A
When you when you ask the question, is he a Muslim? Are you saying the follower of Muhammad making Hajj and all the specific details? No. Let me please let me finish. Am I talking about that in particular? No. But we understand in
Speaker A
Islam that there's different types of Sharia. There's different types of laws and that's fine if there's details that are different. But if Jesus taught that God is one to be good, to be charitable, to be kind, to work for judgment day,
Speaker A
right? This is exactly the foundations of Islam. This is the foundations of monotheism, not trinitarianism.
Speaker A
This is the foundation of what Moses taught. And I'm fine with the fact that there are small differences in terms of so when you want to jump on say what about every detail of Islam I would say well if you're talking about the
Speaker A
religion and all of its details then no but if you're talking about the theology and how there is a progression which you understand because you just said Moses was a Christian which is completely anacronistic right but you could just say whatever
Speaker A
because he's a Jew and he's a Christian simultaneously and he's neither because he never used either of those terms. So what would we call it? What would we call it to submit yourself to one God?
Speaker A
What would we call it Islam? I know you have a problem with that, but that's actually what it's called. It's called submitting yourself to one God, obeying him, being somebody who speaks the truth, gives charity, praise to God,
Speaker A
works so that you can be a good person, favorable by by God, and expecting judgment day.
Speaker A
I got you. So, why is this complicated? So, so watch this. I'll show you why it's complicated.
Speaker A
Sure. Go for it. The double talking. If I say, hey, um, if a man claims to be a prophet, claims to preach one God, claims to believe in prophets, claims to, uh, give charity, and claims to be preaching the truth,
Speaker A
but the one God and creator of all things that they're appealing to is their statute in their backyard. Is that person a Muslim?
Speaker A
Oh my goodness. You're still going back to this? You're still going back to this?
Speaker A
Yes or no? If you appealing to a statue like a rock, then I would say that is blasphemous. But if you are using the term rock to mean not literally but the thing you depend on, then it's fine. It
Speaker A
says in statue. I said a statue, right? It's a rock. A statue. A statue is made of rock, right?
Speaker A
Sure. Fantastic. So So I guess I guess a little bit of clarification is required, isn't it?
Speaker A
I said a statue. A statue is made of rock. Yeah, I definitely reject that God is a rock.
Speaker A
And wait, you said God is a rock, right? Oh, do you want to clarify? Oh, everybody starts laughing. Unbelievable.
Speaker A
It's okay, Dr. Nasis. Okay. So, so listen, if you're talking about, so you just said that no, if a person claims to be a prophet, claims to be preaching the message of God, claims to believe in other prophets, gives charity, and does
Speaker A
good to others, but yet the God that they're talking about is a statute they have in their backyard, whether it's gold or rock, it doesn't matter, a statue, you would say, "No, that's blasphemous. This person is not a
Speaker A
Muslim." Correct. This is why your definition of Islam or Muslim is it means nothing. It means nothing because anybody can be a Muslim by what you just defined. But you would say, "No, this isn't a Muslim because you have a
Speaker A
specific idea of who God is." You have a specific tell my idea. Tell us my specific idea.
Speaker A
Sure. Sure. The the the the the idea of God in Islam is the God who's not triune. He's a singular. He is a singular person in his essence. He does not begin nor is he begotten. He has no
Speaker A
children in any sense. He is unlike his creation. You keep on ushering in any sense.
Speaker A
No, that's what your Quran says. Oh, we we dealt with that in 5:18. We dealt with that very clearly.
Speaker A
You said no. You affirmed it. No, I didn't. I said that God recognizes that these people claim that we are the children of God. Metaphorically, they claim that we are the beloved of God.
Speaker A
And so God is telling them, "Don't attribute purity to yourself." But even when Christians say, "Aren't we all the children of God? Can we all calm down?
Speaker A
Aren't we all children of God?" Muslims don't freak out. Say, "No, not in any sense." Because I know what you're saying, man. We're you're not saying it in the divine sense that there was a man that was actually God. You're saying,
Speaker A
"Guys, let's chill out. We're all the blessed be the peacemaker for the children of God. I would say look I don't use those terminology but I totally get your point that it's a righteous man.
Speaker A
Do you agree with that? Yes, I agree with it as the Jews would. So you agree that a peacemaker is a child of God.
Speaker A
They're Jewish. Look at you're trying to usher this is this is a you're playing games every time that I agree that when the Jews speak Yes.
Speaker A
Actually yes yes yes children of God in the sense of in the sense of because obviously according to you we're not talking about divinities are we? We're talking about beloved people to God because obviously there's not a bunch of
Speaker A
Jesus running around, right? So you're talking about righteous people, right? So thank you for clarifying your meaning and in that meaning I got no problem because you making it very clear.
Speaker A
All right. So So just to be clear, you are okay at affirming as a Muslim. A Muslim can affirm that Allah is their father in the sense that they are a peacemaker. So therefore they are a child of Allah.
Speaker A
You got to be you got to be seriously bored of him running these same circles when I've already clarified that the Israelites use that terminology and we respect what they use. And we No, hold on. We understand. We understand that
Speaker A
terminology. Please chill. No, don't talk to him. Talk to me. Calm down. Talk to me. Answer the question.
Speaker A
Easy. So, is that a yes? Is that a Is that a yes? Are you going to keep yelling?
Speaker A
I'm just asking. Is that a yes? I need to take a breath. Is that a yes?
Speaker A
I'm posturing like I'm winning. Take a Is that a yes? This doesn't This doesn't work, brother. You're making yourself look This is embarrassing.
Speaker A
Oh, man. This is so embarrassing. It is. Okay. Okay. Okay. I love posturing. Is there Is there Is there Can I answer? Can I answer?
Speaker A
You didn't You're not answering. You're just Yeah, you're answer. You can't stop posturing like you won.
Speaker A
Just chill out for a second. I'm going to answer it. Okay. I've made it very clear that in the past there was a certain methodology of describing people that everybody understood. I respect those people and their terminology. And when they say it,
Speaker A
I'm not going to jump up and scream that we don't use those terms, right? What I will say is that listen, I get what you're saying and so I can affirm it in the sense of like I know what you mean. Yeah.
Speaker A
To be perfectly honest, Islam is super against idolatry as you know. And when somebody says, "God is my rock," I'm not going to freak out and say, "How dare you?" Because I know what he's saying.
Speaker A
Yeah. But God is definitely not a rock. Yeah. That's it. This This has been an hour of him capitalizing off of that confusion.
Speaker A
Yeah. It's super redundant. Go ahead. I want to talk about what you brought up. You brought up Mark 12:29. Do you think that this is a verse that proves he's a Muslim?
Speaker A
Mark what? Mark 12:29 where he says, "The hero is the Lord our God, the Lord is one." I believe that this is Jesus. This is a verse. Again, let me be very clear so that we don't put me in some weird
Speaker A
position here. I'm very clear about this. Okay? I don't affirm every verse in the Bible and say, "I believe 100% this is what he said." But broadly speaking, when you see him, for example, preaching just like a Jew Jewish prophet would, like a
Speaker A
prophet of God would, teaching people that God is one, then I'm like, "Yeah, this is most likely correct." I'm not putting everything in it saying I know 100% this is exactly what happened. I'm simply saying that there's so much that
Speaker A
clearly demonstrates that he's not a god. Rather, he's a prophet of God preaching the oneness of God. But go ahead.
Speaker A
Will you confirm that there's a lot of verses that Jesus teaches that he is God?
Speaker A
I would say that either a you can say that these verses can be seen in different lights and other times what you can see is that yeah, they make absolutely no sense. And so like give me an example. What's what's a verse?
Speaker A
When you say no sense, I'm just saying the trinity doesn't make sense. Do you confirm that in the Bible Jesus teaches in verses that he's God?
Speaker A
I would say, well, it depends on what you mean. So, if you're talking, let me let me answer. Let me answer. Okay.
Speaker A
So, if you're talking about a dream that was after the time of Jesus, the alpha and the omega, you can make your argument there and say that look, he came in a dream to John after his entire ministry.
Speaker A
Not a dream. It's a vision. Vision. Thank you. Okay. So, he had a vision.
Speaker A
Hey, right. So, you could you could point to that to which I would say, look, I got no comment on that.
Speaker A
Okay. Right. But besides that, what I'm interested in is the historical Jesus. Can I can we talk about this now, please?
Speaker A
Hold on. Hold on, please. I'm just saying besides revelations, are you saying that Jesus doesn't teach that he's God in the Bible?
Speaker A
I think there are probably instances that you could try to derive that, but there are other ways that you could also understand it in its context.
Speaker A
Okay? Like for example, the classic is uh John 8:58, right? Everybody loves to say that ego, I am, right? And I think that that's weak because obviously in the very next chapter in chapter nine, the blind man is healed and he's walking around and
Speaker A
people say, "Who is this man?" And then he says, "I am God. I am that I am." Hon does he say that? Nobody translate translates ego as I am God. Why not just say he's a crazy blind man that God is
Speaker A
vision and now he's claiming to be God. Why not just translate it that way?
Speaker A
Maybe he's just claiming to be God, guys. No, he says it's me, guys. It's me. So ego, you guys play this loose and fast with definitions. You say that it means I am God here. And then when it's
Speaker A
literally used in the same very next chapter, same book, next chapter, you have a switch in definitions. So in my opinion, could you try to argue that Jesus is claiming to be God here? People argue it. I don't think it's very solid.
Speaker A
So that's why I'm not trying to get I'm trying to give you a more nuanced answer.
Speaker A
So I want to talk about what you just said, the historical Jesus. Where do you get the historical Jesus from?
Speaker A
The historical Jesus is people try to put it together with like the Gospel of Q and they try to say, "Okay, let's try to see uh what is the earliest sources?" And so they try to see what was
Speaker A
corroborated uh between uh Matthew and Luke and they try to say, "Well, this is as close as we can get to the historical Jesus." It's not 100%, but we do our best.
Speaker A
Got you. So the gospel accounts is where you get the historical Jesus from. We're trying our best. Yeah. We we get what we Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker A
Okay. So So if I wanted to learn like for example, uh what did how how did Jesus pray? Where would I go?
Speaker A
Um yeah, you would look if you're a Muslim, you would look how Muslims pray and you say, "Well, Jesus was a Muslim, so therefore he must have prayed similar to this." Where where do you where would you get
Speaker A
that conclusion, though? Because that's begging the question. I'm saying if you're a Muslim, I But how would you like see I know that like if you're a Muslim, you conclude that. But based on what is what I'm asking like
Speaker A
based on the Quran. If you're a Muslim, if if you believe in the Quran as as authoritative text, you believe he's a Muslim and then you therefore you see how the Quran defines prayer and then you say, "Okay, well this is what what
Speaker A
he must have done as a prophet." Why? Where does the Quran say that that's how Jesus prayed or the Quran? You don't have to say you don't have to say for each prophet mentioned and this is how he prayed. No,
Speaker A
you can just describe how Muslims pray and then you get the conclusion of that's how every prophet prayed roughly speaking. Generally speaking, roughly speaking and generally speaking, so I'm not I'm not talking about like exactly the position of you have to
Speaker A
record like this and like this, but generally power to God. So you wouldn't know.
Speaker A
You would just assume that. I would say that as a Muslim, if I know how Muslims pray and prophets of the past were prophets, then clearly they were in line with Islam.
Speaker A
How do you know that that how they prayed though was exactly how you pray today?
Speaker A
because they were Muslim and therefore I'm not saying exactly. So you're jumping on the word exactly. Let's drop that word. I believe they prayed to one God and weren't gods.
Speaker A
How if you wanted to know how they prayed like how they practicing your religion, it's extremely important in Islam.
Speaker A
Allah in the Quran describes and sujud bowing, prostrating things like this. Yeah. But how do you know that that's how Jesus prayed?
Speaker A
Because he's described as a prophet. So what? So he's a Muslim. That doesn't mean that all the prophets prayed the same way in in your Sharia.
Speaker A
Generally speaking, this is this is how they worshiped. So that's an that's an assumption. How would how would you ground it in fact?
Speaker A
How if you wanted to get the historical method on how Jesus practiced his religion?
Speaker A
I do not believe we have access to a man 5,000 uh sorry to 2,000 years ago nor what's it called? I don't I don't believe we have access to uh uh we can see exactly what Moses was doing or what
Speaker A
Abraham was doing. These this is we have Jesus specifically. What I'm saying is we have faith we have faith in these books. Now you can have faith in the Quran which you don't.
Speaker A
you're going to have faith in the Bible to which my conclusion is there are lots of parallels that if you accept Islam so much of the Quran so much of the Bible will make sense to you because of the
Speaker A
parallels with how he prayed. So is that where I will get the historicity of how Jesus practiced his religion in the Bible?
Speaker A
You will get the closest account you can get to the actual history historical yes. So so it's not the Quran that gives us the historical Jesus. It's the Bible that gives us the historical Jesus. So then when I look in the Bible and I see
Speaker A
what Jesus taught, let's say how he prayed, for example, and he prayed. One of the ways he prayed was falling down on his ground saying, "Father, if it's possible, let me let this cup pass from me, but not my will that your will be
Speaker A
done." Or looking up, just standing up looking lifting up his eyes to heaven saying, "Father, glorify me your son with the glor uh glorify your son so that your son may glorify you." I'm seeing how Jesus prayed. You are you're affirming
Speaker A
that these are this is these are the this is the closest we can get to the historical account of how Jesus prayed.
Speaker A
Yes. And because of the because of what you just said, if I'm going to conclude, was this a god or was this a prophet?
Speaker A
I'm definitely going to fall on the side. Now you I I knew you were going to interrupt. That's great.
Speaker A
I didn't ask. That's not the topic. That is the topic. Is he a Muslim or is he a Christian?
Speaker A
You just you didn't say that. You said is he a god or is he just a prophet?
Speaker A
If he's if we believe in Are you really If we believe in Christianity, then he's God praying to God.
Speaker A
We're not talking about his deity. We're talking about his religion, right? I know you want to focus on like like my hand in prayer. You want to focus on the the position, the movement, or the idea that he's actually praying
Speaker A
to God, saying, "Not my not my will, but your will versus the idea of them having one will." So, yeah, go ahead. You want to say, "Look, when you guys pray, you look down. When Jesus prayed, he looked
Speaker A
up. I got you're going to make a big thing about that despite the fact that there's two wills going on." No, no, the what I'm making what I'm in a safer position.
Speaker A
What I'm making a big deal of is who he prayed to. You would agree that it matters who and I and I need this quick.
Speaker A
I don't need a diet tribe. You would agree yes or no that it matters who you pray to. Correct.
Speaker A
The same the same one the Jew the Jews prayed to. Okay. Good. So it matters who you pray to.
Speaker A
Yeah. The Jewish guy. So can a Muslim look lift their eyes to heaven and say, "Father, glorify your son so that your son may glorify you." Can a Muslim say that?
Speaker A
Okay, sure. I'll answer. I'll answer for the 50th time. because of the fact that the Jews use that terminology, but you guys messed it up. We don't use that description anymore.
Speaker A
That's not what I asked. You said your No. No. You just said, "Does a Muslim do that today?" No, we don't.
Speaker A
That's not what I asked. I'll say it again. Can a Muslim Muslim today? At any point in time, at the time of Jesus, lift their eyes up to heaven and say, "Father, glorify your son so that your son may glorify you."
Speaker A
At the time of the Jews, talking about father and son and praying to God is fine. Yes.
Speaker A
Awesome. All right, I rest my case. Okay. At the time of the Jews. Jews.
Speaker A
Hey, you got it, brother. You think you won that? I don't think I won anything, man. I don't think I won anything.
Speaker A
Jewish theology. Are you Are you You're tracking this Jew. You're saying that that's Muslim theology?
Speaker A
I'm saying Jewish theology that calls themselves son and God father. You said you're saying that matches with Muslim theology?
Speaker A
Yes. Yes. Okay, we're good. Okay. I would say that yes, that figurative language because because they know that because they know exactly what they're saying.
Speaker A
Because they know exactly their culture. It matches with the concept that God is one and not actually making babies and a father and has and has children.
Speaker A
Got it. Yeah. Children plural. Yeah. Perfect. As long as he plur pluralizes it to to ensure that we're not talking about a divine being. You're absolutely right. Jesus is not divine. Thank you for affirming that.
Speaker A
Just really quick. You heard him say that, right? He said, "As long as you're praying and he has children, plural, not the one, not the only son." So, he just said, "As long as you're praying to a God that has
Speaker A
children, you guys don't believe that." That, my friend, is a slip-up. Okay. Okay. Can can a can a Muslim uh tell Allah to glorify them so that they all glorify Allah?
Speaker A
Uh again I don't affirm the wording of every word. Now is it possible that God is saying that allow uh you know give me a high status?
Speaker A
No not high status. Yes. Can a Muslim word for glory at any point in time?
Speaker A
What's the word for glory in in Greek? Is it hold on a second? Can any Muslim at any point in time tell Allah to glorify them so that they may glorify Allah in return?
Speaker A
I just want to know what the word means. Can you answer that question? I'm answering you. If we're talking about the word doxa, which is the Greek term, is it a problem? You seem upset that I'm actually quoting the Bible.
Speaker A
I I want an answer to my question. You can go ahead and do your thing.
Speaker A
If you mean that I want to be somebody who is glorified in the sense of worship, no. glorified in the sense of being a noble prophet then of course there's nothing wrong with that because we know that obviously
Speaker A
the prophet Muhammad Ahmed the most praised one and also uh even uh Ibraimam I don't have the verse off the top of my head but he says let me be remembered uh let me be let my name be remembered yeah
Speaker A
in later times so this is talking about being somebody who is known through history not for any sort of pagan or idolatrous ideas of being a god or hypoasis or anything like this but rather being a prophet that is
Speaker A
remembered setting a good example So people he can get that done. Okay. And then last one.
Speaker A
Can you can you affirm because the next verse the next line says you have given him authority over all flesh to give eternal life to all you have given him.
Speaker A
Can a Muslim claim at any point in time that Allah has given them authority over all mankind over all flesh over all creation to give eternal life to them?
Speaker A
Perfect. Thank you. Now can I answer? Please. It's a simple yes or no and expound if you can.
Speaker A
Thank you. I will. So no. I do not believe that God is going to give all authority to a man. Now, what I asked, didn't you just ask that?
Speaker A
I didn't ask if you believe that God is going to do this. I ask, let me let me be clear with my question again.
Speaker A
Can a Muslim at any point in the time of creation of history claim that all Allah gave them all authority over all flesh to give them eternal life?
Speaker A
No. Thank you. Not going to answer. So Jesus is not a Muslim. Now can I answer?
Speaker A
You just did. Jesus is not a Muslim. You really don't want me to talk, do you?
Speaker A
Just expand, please. Go ahead, expand. Thank you for letting me. He doesn't want me to.
Speaker A
I understand. If Jesus is God, can he be given all authority if he is God?
Speaker A
You want me to answer that or are you going on a point? I asked a question. I asked I don't keep interrupting.
Speaker A
Absolutely. So we're talking about the deity of Christ again, but I'll answer you. Uh yes, Jesus can be given authority because he humbled himself, came down, took on flesh, handled his business on earth, and is now as the
Speaker A
humble servant of of the father being exalted back to that position. Which is why in verse five of the verses that I'm talking about, he says, "Now, Father, glorify you. Glorify me with the glory that I had with you before the world
Speaker A
existed." So he can humble himself and set his divine prerogatives aside for a second, do his job, and then receive it back and inherit it back.
Speaker A
So he's a lesser God for a moment. Even all No. Would you say that Allah is a lesser god cuz he's the best of inheritors?
Speaker A
What the heck? I know. What the heck? What the heck? Listen, man. We're talking about You don't have to keep changing the subject.
Speaker A
You crazy, man. This guy has to posture. He has to posture like he's winning. Listen, it's great. I'm sure you have to remind everybody just how much you're winning.
Speaker A
Don't worry, they're reminded. They know. Yeah, cuz you keep reminded. They'll beg you. Yeah. Fantastic. See, look at that. He has to have the last word. He has to have a quick little, you know, I mean, is this about religion or is this about
Speaker A
you? I'm not making make it a little less just a little less about you. So if Jesus if the scene is Jesus praying to God and then your conclusion is that he's being given all authority then a the fact that he's praying is much more
Speaker A
in line with Islam because gods don't pray to God. Allah prays. That's false and you know it. That's such a that's such a weak interruption.
Speaker A
Like if you're going to interrupt at least do a good job. Chapter two. Yeah. Good job. So anyway, number one.
Speaker A
Number two, if he's given all authority, then he's not God. Unless he's a lesser God, but you're going to play this game of like, well, he gave up his authority, so he wasn't fully God. Well, he gave it
Speaker A
up, but he still had it. What the heck are you talking about, man? Allah is the best of inheritors. He gives it up and then, but I guess he still had it, huh? Because he's also the owner of all things, but also the
Speaker A
inheritor, which means he's given something. Is that really You really think that the fact that everything that dies is going to go back and to be judged by God Almighty? You think he lost something?
Speaker A
Does he own it? If he owns it, if he owns it, then how's he inheriting it?
Speaker A
This is the weakest argument I've ever heard. Saying it's weak is not a reputation.
Speaker A
So, you're telling me and all of your little theatrics aren't a reputation either. Take it easy, man. Take it easy.
Speaker A
So, anyway, what I'm trying to say is that God inheriting as in everything goes back to God. This is confusing for you.
Speaker A
No, it's not. So, so you're telling me, wait, wait, do you believe that God is all powerful?
Speaker A
Yes. Does he inher Does everything does everything go back to God on judgment day? So, does he inherit? So, is he weaker then? Do you not see how this can be applied to you?
Speaker A
So, no. What are you arguing against Christian? This is what you This is what you don't even understand. You don't even know what's happening.
Speaker A
You're bringing up arguments where Jesus is inheriting authority from the father being given things, receiving things. I didn't know God's and you're using you notice what he just said. I didn't know God's inherit anything. Your Quran literally says this is one of his names.
Speaker A
He's the best of inheritors. That doesn't mean he lost anything. So, but you just said you didn't know God's inherit anything.
Speaker A
Not power. So, now it's all not God. Goodness gracious. Are you joking? Is Allah not God inherit?
Speaker A
Do you think you just said he puts aside his divinity? No, I didn't. I said divine prophets.
Speaker A
I'm not talking about the world and worldly things and matters. Does Allah inherit? You joking.
Speaker A
Does Allah inherit? Yes or no? So, let me explain this to you theologically. No problem. If this this is your this is your line of logic. Wow.
Speaker A
Great. When Allah subh says that he is that he is the one who everything goes back to him. See, I knew you had to interrupt. You can't handle it.
Speaker A
What does it mean? What is what's the word? It means it means two. Listen, let me explain.
Speaker A
It means inherent. It doesn't mean inherent divinity. Are you joking? I didn't say that.
Speaker A
Guys, please tell me nobody's convinced by this terrible argument. Okay, let me explain it very clearly.
Speaker A
When God Almighty is saying that everything that happens in this world, all the wealth and all the riches and all all that, look, at the end of the day, you're all going to come back to me and you'll all be judged by me. This
Speaker A
doesn't mean that he was weak. This doesn't mean that his that his divinity was lost or that he put aside his divinity. He's talking he's just this is equivocation. He's just taking the word inherit and saying, "Got your moment."
Speaker A
That's not serious. We're God never loses his power. God never loses authority over anything. Obviously, neither did they do this.
Speaker A
So, but on judgment day when everything goes back to him and he judges everyone.
Speaker A
This is every God inheriting everything. Not like, "Oh my god, I lost something." Good. So, they're saying, "Yeah, you got the word inherit." Correct. My point is that he's talking about Jesus actually being a deity who does not have
Speaker A
his divinity. No. No. So, but so he inherits authority. So, notice I'm not inheriting I'm not talking about inheriting like wealth and the world and things like that. You're talking about inheriting what? Authority.
Speaker A
Is Jesus a Muslim? Just on that specific topic, can we do closing statements? Yes, sure. Go ahead.
Speaker A
Okay. Thank you, brother. Um, so I I I'll be pretty quick. So, what we saw was that um to be a Muslim um is something specific. It's to believe specifically in the God of Islam. the God that Muhammad propagates,
Speaker A
the God that the hadith propagate. Um, one who is not a father in any way, shape or form, one who doesn't beget nor is begotten. One who is unlike his creation, one who is not multi-personal, one who is not a statute or anything
Speaker A
like that. This is the God that Muslims are talking about when they say that that that you're a Muslim. But then the problem is is they try to apply this to Jesus. The issue is when we get to
Speaker A
Jesus, we see that Jesus affirms that God is multi-personal. He affirms that he is the son of God who gives eternal life and has authority over all flesh, which according to Dr. Nasser, you cannot be a Muslim and say. So Dr.
Speaker A
Nasser while affirming that the Bible is where we get closest to the historical Jesus. According to the most historical account of Jesus that we have, Jesus affirms that he's the divine son of God who he has who has uh the ability to
Speaker A
give eternal life, has authority over all flesh, and by his own words cannot be a Muslim by claiming such things. So what we saw, Jesus is not a Muslim. It's impossible to prove that. It's impossible to demonstrate that. Muslims,
Speaker A
you have to start thinking about this more deeply. And notice that you're going to have to change your religion in order to try to apply the term Muslim to Jesus. Because once you do that, you're now going to flip-flop on the under aka.
Speaker A
You're going to flip-flop on what you believe about Allah. You're going to ascribe to him names that are that that that that he never ascribed for himself, which in chapter 7 it says to avoid those who deviate from their from his
Speaker A
names. Chapter 7 verse 180. Do not deviate from the names of Allah. Do not commit bidda and innovation by trying to say Jesus is a Muslim because it will collapse.
Speaker A
Closing statement, please. Sure. Uh, unfortunately, I was hoping this would move past one topic.
Speaker A
Very odd to me that it just stuck with this one word, father, which for some reason you guys fully asserted and completely agree can be figurative and therefore has a meaning of creator and the one that is loving and caring and so
Speaker A
forth. And then every single time I asserted that, you just want to usher in and say, "So he is a father and that is a theological statement and therefore we can add in all this theology." And so every time I actually expounded on it,
Speaker A
he wanted to be like, "Just give me a yes or no." This went in a direction that I was not expecting. But now that you have ushered in your actual point, which is that you have to assert that
Speaker A
Jesus is a, you know, that the God is multi-personal and that Jesus is God.
Speaker A
That's actually what I want to talk to you about, which I had lots of verses for, you never let me get around to it.
Speaker A
My point is simple. If you go through the Bible and you see over and over again verses that clearly demonstrate that Jesus is not God and if that theology makes absolutely no sense to you as it shouldn't because it doesn't
Speaker A
work which I wish we could have talked about a little bit more then you guys would have concluded you come to the simple conclusion that obviously if he's not God if he's worshiping God if he sleeps and God doesn't sleep if he dies
Speaker A
and God doesn't die if he has weak if a thousand other things if he grows in wisdom and God doesn't grow in wisdom then maybe when he calls himself a prophet. He is a prophet. And when you see the parallels between him being a
Speaker A
man and a prophet and you see the Jewish prophets had a similar storyline and you see the prophetam has an extremely similar storyline. I know he wants to focus on oh but he looked up when he prayed instead of focusing on the fact
Speaker A
that he prayed to God like complete mismatch of what to focus on. I would say clearly you're going to come to the conclusion that the historical Jesus when you take a look at the earlier texts you see that there's less
Speaker A
christologology. So therefore the closer you get to Jesus the more you realize he was a prophet as was concluded by the people who were listening in Matthew 21 as you mentioned. And so therefore, if he's a prophet of God and if he worships
Speaker A
God, then I think it's fair to say that he is in line with Islamic prophets, Muslim, the Muslim concept of who Jesus was. I would highly urge you to learn about Islam and inshallah, God willing, you will be guided to the faith of
Speaker A
Islam. Take care. That was awesome, guys. That was Yeah, it was fun. That was good.
Topics:JesusMuslimChristianIslamTheologyProphetGodQuranBibleReligious debate
