Speaker A
Do you think we should reduce the amount of pain that plants are experiencing? Yes, we should. Plants matter. #PlantsMatter.
Debate on veganism, ethical eating, and suffering featuring Dr. Jack Sims in Jubilee's Surrounded series.
Key Takeaways
- Extreme suffering caused by factory farming is argued to be morally indefensible by vegans.
- Veganism is presented as a practical ethical rule to avoid unnecessary animal suffering.
- Animal agriculture contributes significantly to global hunger and environmental degradation.
- Health studies suggest vegan diets can reduce risks of major diseases compared to meat-based diets.
- Ethical debates involve balancing suffering, meaning, and practical realities of feeding billions.
Summary
- The video features a debate on veganism and ethical eating with Dr. Jack Sims facing 20 meat eaters.
- Discussion centers on whether extreme suffering for trivial pleasure, such as factory farming, is morally indefensible.
- Dr. Sims presents the utilitarian perspective emphasizing minimizing animal suffering and the ethical implications of factory farming.
- The debate addresses the impact of animal agriculture on global hunger and land use.
- Differences between senseless suffering and meaningful suffering are explored in the context of ethical eating.
- Health benefits of veganism versus meat-eating are discussed, referencing large epidemiological studies.
- Philosophical and religious perspectives on suffering and ethical consumption are debated.
- The video highlights challenges in addressing complex ethical, environmental, and health issues related to diet.
- Participants challenge each other's arguments on morality, practicality, and sustainability of veganism.
- The format encourages critical thinking and respectful dialogue on controversial topics.
Chapters
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
You're not addressing my points. You are not addressing my points. You are deflecting because I literally backed you into a corner.
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You can have sex and it was unethical, non-consensual, but it was great. Or you can have consensual sex and it's not quite as good. Which one do you pick?
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Probably a cheeseburger. Is eating meat unethical? Or has the conversation around veganism and ethical dieting become too rigid and moralized?
Speaker A
I'm John Regalado and for Jubilee Media, this is Surrounded, where one brave soul faces a room full of disagreeers. Today, we're diving headfirst into veganism, factory farming, and what it means to eat ethically. I'm here in the center
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with our featured guest, Dr. Jack Sims. Welcome to the show. Hey, thanks for having me.
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Are you ready to debate the circle? Sure am. I'm looking forward to hearing what reasons they've brought for their unethical lifestyles.
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Are you all ready to bring your best arguments? All right, let's get into it.
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My first Surrounded claim is: extreme suffering for trivial pleasure is morally indefensible. If you'd like to be the first debater, get to the chair in three, two, one.
Speaker A
Easy, lad. Dr. Jack, nice to meet you. I'm Dr. Pete. Nice to meet you.
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Hey, Dr. Pete. So, I am very excited about this topic. I think it's super interesting that it touches on so much and all starts with food. So I'm an emergency medicine physician.
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Do you want to on the claim I made first of all? Do you want to do you disagree with that first?
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I do. I do. You dis extreme suffering for trivial pleasures morally indefensible. Can I give you the reason then you can disagree?
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Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. So I think this principle comes from any of the major world philosophies. So you could be religious or non-religious. You could be a Christian, a Jew, a Muslim, you could be a Hindu, a Sikh,
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you could be a Buddhist or you could have one of the secular moral philosophies as well. You could be an Aristotelian, a utilitarian, an existentialist. But the easiest way to understand it is just being a utilitarian, right? A good action is one
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where you create lots of happiness and pleasure and very little pain and suffering. But unfortunately, when it comes to factory farming, it's the other way around in our treatment of non-human animals in general. Quick example, and then I'll let you jump in. A broiler
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chicken exists for six weeks. As soon as it's born, it has its beak clipped off with a guillotine. It's put in a cage so small it can't move. It's pumped full of food for six weeks straight. So fast
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that its organs fail, its legs break under its own weight. It goes blind because of the toxins in its own feces.
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Then it has its throat slit alongside 10,000 or so of its brothers and sisters. I think that's an extreme amount of pain and suffering for what is trivial pleasure, which is the taste on your lips. Would you agree?
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Well, I'll say that all of civilization is about chasing triviality and at the same time I think that suffering on that. Do you think that's too much suffering for I would definitely also say that suffering is inevitable and it's
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essential. It's inevitable but you can minimize it, right? Is there too much there? So as an emergency medicine doc who takes care of suffering, I'm happy to talk about that. If you can just say is that too much suffering imparted onto
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the chicken in that particular example? Yeah. Whatever it takes, whatever it takes, whatever it takes to sustain 8 billion people across the world, I would say is not true.
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It's easier to sustain 8 billion people without having animal agriculture. It's possible. I'd like to hear the mechanistic argument for that. But I will say as a philosophy, you're a philosopher. I'm an ER.
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Well, there are 30 to 60 million children that are dying every year from starvation. UNICEF put it at 30 million.
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Dr. Rich Doppelganger puts it at 60 million. And so every year you got 30 to 60 million. In 82% of those cases, the children are dying in places where the majority of the meat has been given to cattle and sold to more affluent
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countries. That's Ethiopia. That's Sudan. Sudan is the hungriest country major in the world. And it has one of the biggest livestocks in all of Africa.
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So you can feed these people if you go to plant-based. You need 75% less land.
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And the amount of agriculture which is used towards supporting these non-human animals to slaughter them,
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that that's one of the biggest causes of not being able to you're talking about a massive problem across billions of people across many geographies. And I think what you bring up is probably true, but at the same time, I don't think the solution to
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it is just either you're vegan or you're not. And what I mean to say is this about suffering is that when you take care of people with strokes, heart attacks, domestic abuse, bear attacks, they're also violent predators that eat
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all sorts of things in addition to us. You know, you start to understand that there's two types of suffering. And I think that's the most important part.
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Two types of suffering. There's senseless suffering and there's meaningful suffering. And I think what you have to understand is that when you can create meaning behind suffering, you can transform it as unnecessary suffering. And that's the vegan claim
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that I take veganism to be the practical ethical rule to avoid products and practices that cause unnecessary suffering to animals. Would you agree that if you can do something without the suffering, you ought to do it without the suffering? Yes or no?
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Are you against domestic that I'm happy to respond. If you think you can do something without suffering or you do that.
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I don't think avoiding suffering is the highest good. What is the highest good? I've just told you that every major world is meaning I've just told you every single major world religion religions that they're all extreme suffering.
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They're all human beings that that does not justify trivial pleasure. Can you name one world philosophy that thinks that extreme suffering can justify trivial pleasure?
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I don't need to name a philosophy. I think what it is is that in the ER in reality in reality when I'm taking care of people recently diagnosed with cancer or they have a child that died, et cetera,
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there are two big studies on overall general health outcomes. The EPIC survey at the University of Oxford looked at half a million people over the last 30 years and the Christian Adventist study in the United States of America that
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looked at 75,000 people. In both these studies, it's found that you're likely to live significantly longer, less risk of heart disease, less risk of cancer, less risk of diabetes, less risk of obesity if you're vegan rather than eating meat.
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This is the most obese country on the face of the planet in terms of the global, in terms of being a major country. Seventy-five percent of people in this country are overweight and obese, president.
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I know it very, I know it very cleanly. I'm responsible for their health as well.
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Pause. You've been voted out by the majority. Please go back to. Thank you. Hey, nice to meet you.
Speaker A
How's it going? Dr. SS. Nice to meet you. What's your name? Sorry. My name is Brian.
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Nice to meet you, Brian. You have a PhD in philosophy? I do. Yeah. That was my first major.
Speaker A
Oh, cool. Nice. Where did you study? Uh, philosophy. Yeah. Oh, what do you mean?
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Where did you study? Oh, University of Texas, San Antonio. Very nice. Yeah, I actually went to the National Ethics Bowl. Competed.
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Awesome. So, that's, uh, yeah. So, what do you think of the claim? I made the claim earlier to one of your, uh, one of your peers that there's no major world philosophy that thinks that extreme suffering justifies trivial pleasure.
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Would you agree with that? So, um, can we just stick like point by point rather than bouncing around? I just want to just that claim. So what I h
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I think all of the major world philosophies hold some version of that to be true.
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Yeah. So I will not defend factory farming. Um there is another way of producing meat and it is regenerative agriculture.
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Okay. And regenerative agriculture reduces all of the harm. Okay. Doesn't reduce all of the harm. The the first well the majority of the harm they leave they live beautiful lives on regenerative ranches.
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One bad day. Right. They right. Absolutely. One bad day. I've had bad day. It's bad.
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don't know that it's coming. But but they're serving they're serving their purpose. But they're okay. But here's the deal. Would they even exist in the first place if they weren't being harvested from be? No. No. Let me let me
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ask you a question. Do they have the right to exist? Yeah. Because you're cutting me off. Do they have the right to exist?
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Well, because here's the deal. If you're saying that we should not harvest them, then those animals are never going to exist. So I guarantee if they had consciousness and you put them down and you said, "Here are the scenarios. You
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can either exist and you can have one bad day and you can serve a purpose and you can have a beautiful life. You can make a positive contribution to the environment. You can make a Can I finish? Can I finish?
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Yeah, but you're taking a heard the case. I want to So So when I die, I want to be buried in the soil and I want to decompose so that my carbon returns to grass farming is a conscientious farming is a myth because
Speaker A
you're not addressing my points. You are not addressing my points. You are deflecting because I literally backed you into a corner.
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Conscientious farming. What about all of the mice? What about all the rabbits that die? Have you ever spent time on a farm?
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Yeah. Have you Have you ever talked farm to farmers? Okay. And how many mice how many rabbits are murdered to produce vegetables?
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Of all of murdered to produce vegetables% of all of them are fed to factory farms. I've told you 80% of all of soy is given to non-human animals.
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Only stop right there. I'm going to stop right there. Soy is grown for the oil.
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The soy is grown for the oil. It is literally extracted. The leftover product is then fed to cattle. Oh, that is a manipulative statistic. I am here for discussion. You won't address the point. Let me respond. Go back to the
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soy. Go back to the soy. Go back to the soy. Go back to the soy.
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75% reduction according to Hannah Richie in 2022. She says that's our world in data. You get a 75% reduction in all agricultural land. 30% of all your agricultural land is given to cattle.
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We've got 80 to 90%. You're not addressing the soy% species. You're not addressing the soy.
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91%. It is literally the byproduct. They grow the soy for the oil. Even if it wasn't being fed to the animals, they would still grow the soy. True. Only 13% of it. That is true. The reference right here.
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Yeah. And you don't understand the statistic. If you go and actually look at the statistic, all of the soy is taken, the oil is suppressed, and then the byproduct is what is fed to the animal. And it is 85% of it is left over
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and that's what fed animal. 80 to 90% according to the WWF and the UN.
Speaker A
Why? Tell me how that's defect. You were deflecting. And you so you brought up a statistic and you said that 85% of soy is fed to cattle.
Speaker A
80% 80 what? Whatever you said. You said the majority of soy is fed to cattle. Did you not?
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I said 80%. Okay. 80. So really now now you're going to argue about 5%. You understand the intent. So you're saying that the majority of soy is fed to cattle. And I am telling you that that is inaccurate.
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It's not as if the soybean in it Listen to me. Listen to me. It's it's the nuance. It is the nuance that you were trying to deflect with. It is not as if 80% of all soy is fed to cattle in its
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natural state. Oil is extracted and then the byproduct is being used because of factory farming for the raising cattle.
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I'm not defending factory farming% of all your wildlife. Argue against regenerative agriculture having cows, pigs, chicken agriculture. Argue against regenerative agriculture because it destroys the wildlife because it destroys the climate. According to the UN, 91% of all deforestation is caused
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by animal agriculture. According to the WWF and the UN, 80 to 90% of all wildlife extinction is caused by animal agriculture. Just because you're using that land, you have hunting leases. 35% Listen, ranchers who have hunting leases, meaning that they have a ranch,
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they have land, they don't allow animals on there. They will literally have ranchers bring their cattle in there and flash graze the grass because guess what? It improves the entire ecosystem and it provides no energy.
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What do you think happened in the Amazon? What's the leading cause of what happened in Yellowstone when they reintroduced? the leading cause of deforestation. What's the leading cause of what happened in Yellowstone when they reintroduced wolves?
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Press having a conversation, aren't you? You answer my question. They're doing it for all of your asking you one question.
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The deforestation is related to factory farming. You can get rid of the deforestation. You got factory farms in the Amazon.
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Sorry. Have you been to They're doing it for They're doing it for soy. You've been aboted out by the majority.
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Please return to your seat. Hi. How's it going? What was your name? Sorry. Be nice to meet you. Girl gone carnivore, actually.
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You're You're a carnivore. I am carnivore. Full carnivore. You do me. Go on. Okay. Yeah, you do.
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Why are you a carnivore? I do it mainly because I can't survive without meat.
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Can't survive. I cannot survive without desert island scenario for you every day. It is. It truly is.
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What condition do you have if you don't mind me asking? Sure. I have gastroesophagus reflux disease.
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Okay. And so I cannot eat a vegetarian or vegan diet. I will literally get very very sick and I was actually vegan vegetarian when I was 16 years old and that's when I got diagnosed. I've been on a journey. Thank you.
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You've seen dietitians, you've spoken to GPS, you've seen doctors. I've seen doctors. I've seen GPS.
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They've all put me on medications and I was on medication for over 10 years that actually ended up depleting my vitamin D levels and put me in great amounts of depression.
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Okay. And I was also told by doctors that I would never be able to powerlift again.
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I am now lifting 315 pounds with a deadlift. Mhm. And you couldn't find any of the like all of the amino acids, all of the nutrients you needed in a plant-based diet.
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Unfortunately, I could not. What was it you were missing? Um, mainly protein. I cannot consume enough protein from vegetation that I need to get it from meat. There's a study by Miguel Lopez, a big one yet last year in
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2025, Journal of um of of Sport Medicine that looked at over 8,000 papers across um protein intake and found there was no difference in terms of protein intake and upper body strength, lower body strength, and overall body strength. So,
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I'm always surprised to meet somebody who says that, you know, this just doesn't work. Um you know, there obviously great athletes who take on a lot of protein um as well. And when you look at basic things like, you know,
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your tofu per portion is going to have more protein than your eggs. Uh your Satan's going to have nearly twice as much protein as your as your lean meat, your sirloin steak. Your soy milk's going to have more protein than your
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whole or semi-kinned milk. So I'm always surprised to hear people can't get the protein. And I I wonder like, you know, did you do those things? Were you did you you carefully picked all the It's an inflammation issue really when
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it comes down to it. So, anytime I eat any other foods that are not meat, I get tons of inflammation and so I can't physically lift. I can't physically really move. I feel very ill. Yeah.
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And so meat actually makes it where I can live and then strive. Do you want to be vegan?
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I do not want to be vegan. Why? I do not want to be vegan because it makes me sick. But like if if you were, you know, you didn't have these health conditions. If I didn't have these health conditions
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and I could eat whatever I wanted, it's possible, but I I you know, it's a really good question. Um, I really feel like maybe.
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Yeah, you probably would. Maybe. I mean, right, if I if I had no adverse if I had no adverse effects to uh the the vegan foods, okay, then maybe. Sure.
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So, do you try I I think conscientious farming is is is a myth, but do you try and get the the meat based and animal based products that you get from as ethically as possible?
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I I have I'm not going to say that I do it all the time. I'm not going to lie to you. Um but my brother's actually a farmer out in Texas and I try the best that I can to get my meat from my
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brother because I find that that's the best way to do it. I've actually went out to Texas and processed a cow with him. So, I was actually there. um he shot the cow and then um we processed it
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and it was an experience for me because I actually got to see where my meat comes from as opposed to just being blindly eating.
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Yeah, I'm not sure I'm not sure I'd uh enjoy it more if I got to see the creature as being Well, my family, you know, they were butchers and and so I like to um you know, just kind of continue that in in
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my family. But I was a vegan, vegetarian, like I said, and when I was younger, and I I do see where you were coming from as far as like where it could be ethically more sound. But unfortunately, um I've looked everywhere because I've
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I've sort of met a bunch of people like you. Um and I'm always, like I say, I'm always skeptical because the stuff that I read seems to go in the opposite direction. The only study I found said it was about 0.1 to 0.2% of people have
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a condition like yours where they actually need the meat, but it seems like, you know, when I meet people, it's more like 10% of people. Uh, so I do find it hard to, you know, just to be honest, I find it hard to believe just
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in general because I meet so many people that say things like this. Um, and I just encourage you to, you know, to go as far towards veganism. Veganism as possible right?
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Okay. But if you want to be a vegan, pause, you you've been voted out by the majority. Please return to yourself.
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Okay. We didn't really appreciate. Thank you. Hopefully speak to you in a moment. Thank you.
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Hey. Hello. Nice to meet you. What's your name? Sorry. Danella. Nice to meet you, Daniela. Jack.
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Yeah. So, I first became vegetarian at 8 years old. I had seen PETA videos online and I told my mom 8 years old. That's bad parenting right there. That's horrific stuff.
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Yeah. I decided I didn't want to do it. And then at 16, I went vegan.
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Yeah. Nice. And all whole foods plant-based vegan. So, I wasn't having seed oils or Were you taking supplements?
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No, I was not. Yeah. Yeah. And I subsequently developed PCOS symptoms as well as gout.
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Yeah. So eating. So you are like that. Yeah. You are against whole foods plant-based.
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Yeah. I think I think any sensible nutritionist will say that you need to make sure you're doing it properly. You need to be doing it carefully. And that means for a start taking a B12 tablet. I don't think there's anything wrong with
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that. I think we do lots of unnatural things. Flying on planes, watching television. I think going straight to the source and just having a B12 tablet's absolutely fine. I think when you put those two diets in front of
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someone, like if we're not in this debate and someone said to you, right, here's one diet where you take a B12 tablet and here's another one where you've got an increased risk of heart disease, more likely to be obese, more
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likely to um you know, develop all kinds of cancers and you're going to live 15 to 20% longer according to the Christian Adventist study here in the United States, then I think most people would go for that one. Um I think we need
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better information of let's not go for just a whole foods diet without that nutrition. Yeah, I will say since I'm responding to your claim, I do agree with your claim. That was the biggest thing that bothered me about being a
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vegan or vegetarian and people would always go and they'd say, "Oh, but what about bacon? Come back, you know, come back to the come back to the light." Well, just take take the B12 tablet and become vegan.
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But I'm not pro alopathic medicine. I don't think that these supplements are really beneficial. Um, of course they are. These big health studies show that. 500,000 people, University of Oxford, 75,000 people, the Christian Adventist study. How is there
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a way to have veganism though without cities? I'm not pro cities. Yeah, I'm not pro cities. I think, you know, you talk later about factory farming, which is a product of the industrial revolution. You know, that's not something I'm for in any regard. I
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think that's been very disastrous. Understand how veganism is linked to cities. Well, why wouldn't it be? If you need to have all of these supplements and you need to have all of this mass production, just one supplement. It's just a B12
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supplement. Yeah, but you'd also need that from nuts and stuff, too, right? Been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat.
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Yeah. Welcome back to veganism. It's meant to be. All right. Hi. Nice to meet you.
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You're all right. How's it going? What's your name? Sorry. My name is Nicole Ashley.
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Nice to meet you, Nicole Ashley. Jack, how you doing? I'm great. I think plants killing plants is murder, though.
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Oh, dude. Don't do this. Come on. You're joking. You're ripping it from the ground. You're ripping it from its mother. It's murder. And I enjoy the trivial pleasure of doing what the lions, what the hyenas, what the tigers
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have done for history. So you think plants can feel pain? Yes, they can. So you want to reduce that pain?
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You know why? I have an aelia and when I don't give it enough light, that thing dies so it feels it.
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Yeah, I think plants have feelings, too. Right. Do you think we should reduce the amount of pain that plants are experiencing?
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Yes, we should. Plants matter. # plants matter. Okay, so according to Hannah Richie 2022, you get a 75% reduction in all of the land that you need for farming. So if given the fact you're getting 40 to1 in your calories and 30 to1 in your
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protein from plants to animals then slaughtered, you get a 75% decrease in the plants that you're going to kill.
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This is how we living for history. And I have to say this, when I go and don't give my fern enough light, it fails.
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Okay? when I don't give it any water, it fails. Right. Two things. I'll I'll let you do whatever that was. So, you'll you'll hear me out. Um the first thing to say is that we don't want to in philosophy,
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we call it the principle of par. That just basically means we don't want to attribute unnecessary attributes to something if we can explain it without positing it. What does that mean? Plants don't have central nervous systems and there behavior can be explained without
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positing that they have minds that can experience pain, pleasure, happiness and stuff. No, they don't. There's no reason to matter. No, they don't.
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They do. They don't. They do. They get sunlight photosynthesis. They No, cuz I don't want to do the natural argument as well. And I want to get this one out the way really quickly. I'll see if I can do it in 30 seconds. And I
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promise it'll be really quick. The argument they gave from nature is one of the biggest one probably one of the worst arguments for being an anti-vegan.
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And why? Because there are lots of things that are predisposed through our natures that we shouldn't follow, right?
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Um we're naturally predisposed towards war, lying, cheating, stealing. That's part of the Christian tradition. They think St. Augustine of Hippos. What about to the caveman times? The caveman times. The cavemen lived. They lived off of eating meat. So what is the big deal?
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I love me a juicy burger. And why should I be denied that when you guys are murderers, too? Ripping a poor plant from its mama, from the mother earth.
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Y'all should be ashamed of y'allselves. And we're out of time, baby. Let's do it.
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Speaker A
My next surrounded claim is that everyone should aim to be vegan. All right, if you would like to be the first debater for this claim, get to the chair in three, two, one.
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Hi. Hey. What's your name? Nathan. Nice to meet you, Nathan. How goes? It goes pretty good. Yeah.
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So, the claim everyone should aim to be vegan. You happy with it? No. And here's why.
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So, I am a third-year med student and so I'm going to be a physician, Lord willing, next year. So, my goal is to take care of my patients and I will actually come out and say that the vegan diet tends to be
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healthier. Absolutely. Great. I don't think there's much dispute over that. You can look at the evidence. It is it is healthier.
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However, seats. However, the biggest thing with the vegan diet from a physician perspective that you have to think about is, and it's been mentioned a couple times, is the micronutrient deficiencies that you can have.
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B12. B12 is one of them. The tablet. So B12 Yeah, be just taking the tablet.
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No, but first, let me just let me just talk for a second. So for B12, it is a DNA precursor that helps synthesize red blood cells. When you don't have that, they become big and become what we call
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microitic sorry macroitic anemia. And eventually if you don't treat it long enough, you will have nerve damage. And we've seen that time and time again.
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Early onset Alzheimer's, all that stuff. What your girl earlier on was she did the whole foods diet and and and as I said, then you need to take that B12 supplement.
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So that's not the only thing though. That's the problem is that we also have calcium. Calcium is very important for um bone density. About 30% um if you're vegan diets exclusively, you are 30% likelier to have um a fracture. And
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Jubilee, you can you can fact check me on that. Um no but but these these these are good right so so the the nutrition game we can we can pick out but the overall health outcomes for the vegan
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are significantly better aren't they so it depends so as a physician the epic study at the University of Oxford you'll be familiar the Christian Adventist study here at the United States that's that's you know 700,000 people over 30 years who are being
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tracked 20% less like you know you're going to have a longer life by about 20% less likely to get cancer less likely to get diabetes here can I ask you one question because I'm really interested.
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So the United States, you know, you got a lot of fat people, a lot of obese people, lot of overweight people. The Christian Adventist study here in the US is interesting because they look at uh people who have got a similar religious
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background, similar alcohol and smoking intake, which is very, very little. And it found that the vegans had four to five lower BMI points than the meateers, which would literally take you from obese to perfect.
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I am not in favor of the current American diet. I want to make that very clear. The fa the diet that I'm in favor of and that I will mention to all my patients who are struggling with BMI is
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the Mediterranean diet, which I'm sure you are very aware of. It's actually very similar to the vegan diet in that it has um whole grains, legumes, seeds, fruits, and vegetables, which are all super important.
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Why wouldn't you take the supplements? Why would I take supplements when I could just have lean meats like chicken and fish and turkey and things that I study by Juny Wang in 2019 where she found the fortifides and the supplements
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were more easily absorbed by the body because they're already taken away from the fibers. So that's why you think so I actually disagree with that because so for instance omega-3s fish have omega-3s they nuts as well.
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So here's the thing is that for nuts it's actually your body has to convert it to what it needs.
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Take your omega3. No no no. So omega3 tablet you need. So that's another tablet thing. Why would you do that when you could just take fish or something similar?
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A bunch of reasons. The the one is the moral reason which is significant. Our oceans are being destroyed. 3 to 10 trillion fish being taken out of the ocean. People complain about shark fin soup and they don't want whales being
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killed. The bykill is absolutely enormous. And when you're talking about the suffering for the non-human animals as well. When you talk about the cost, the University of Oxford study in 2021 found it's 30% cheaper to have a vegan
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or vegetarian diet than it is to have a meat-based diet. And the fish pescatarian diet was the most expensive out of all of them. So, it's more affordable. If you're spending $10,000 on groceries as a house each year,
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you're going to save $3,000 by going vegan. That's a very strong argument for not going for the fish when so yeah you you could eat pescatarian but then you've got all of the destruction of the wildlife and you've got the killing of
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the animals and you've got the cost as well or you could just take that omega-3 and B12 tablet and you're going to significantly reduce your you also need to take calcium you need to take vitamin D you have to take
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selenium you have to take iod 95% of people in the 95% of people in the US are vitamin D deficient yes that is fair and you some we do uh prescribe that but that's unique As I've seen patients, as I've been rotating
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through different things, you rank the diets in terms of healthiest. Would you go pescatarian, vegan?
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I'd go Mediterranean first and then pescatarian and then vegan. Okay. So, but here's the important thing.
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We're not too far away from each other. We're not too far. But here's the thing is that I think about my patients and I think about what is it achievable for them and the problem with and I I think a lot
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for them what's affordable so affordable but also can I can I please the other thing is I've seen medication non-compliance like I myself take a medication for blood pressure and I suck at it and a lot of other people one of the
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biggest things in America is that some people just a lot of people actually are just not compliant with their medications. So that just they don't take it.
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They don't take it. So it's either we have them high BMI, take a bunch of medications, we do a vegan diet, we give them a lot of supplements like five or six actually that you would need or you
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can have the med you can have the Mediterranean diet where you can just have a good diet without those supplements or added things in it.
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Yeah, you you know you don't need those five or six. You need you need the B12 tablet as well. And the hard thing is that like you have to be super super careful about how much of the macronutrient you're
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consuming. So as a vegan, you have to make sure, okay, I'm having this many of this kind of food group, this many of this kind of food group because you want to make sure that you're getting those vitamins and those micronutrients in
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where as a Mediterranean diet, you wouldn't need to do that as much. Like you have to do it some for sure because you want to make sure that you're not eating too much as well. Cuz I think with the Mediterranean diet studies,
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I've seen so many studies where they just let people eat. Can I ask how do you how do you explain that 600 700,000 people in the in the overall health outcome work University of Oxford and the in the Christian Adventist study
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which I've mentioned a few times if people are struggling to take those supplements and if people aren't doing veganism properly you'd expect their life expecties to be significantly reduced or not 20% more they beat the pescatarians on life expectancy
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significantly they've got better health outcomes in terms of their risk of cancers diabetes obesity so in practice You say people are bad at doing this and yeah, of course they are. That rings true for us intuitively. But when you
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look at nearly a million people and you look at what they're actually doing, the vegan significantly has the better health outcome. And I want a car that's going to go far. It doesn't has fewer trips to the garage that it goes faster
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and longer. That's what I want. Good health outcomes. So the same should be true of my body as well.
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But the thing is is that there are there are truths to that that that definitely cancer is a thing where it's decreased in veganism. However, the Mediterranean diet does have those decreased thing.
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Like I ask, how do you explain the I don't know. I'm still a student. I'm still learning and maybe I will find that study and I'm maybe I'll answer that better for you at some point. But as I see it,
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well, check it out. Take my take take my email or something after. I genuinely read it and I genuinely are I genuinely interested to hear what you think of it cuz cuz I read it. I it just like the
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difference is huge. But I think when it comes to the Mediterranean diet versus the vegan diet, the vegan diet might be better in some ways, but only just by a little bit. With the Mediterranean diet, you still have decreased cancer rates. still
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have decreased cardiovascular risk. You still have decreased risk of diabetes if you're doing those things properly. And so, and one of the things we learned, I've never in my medical school career been told to recommend the vegan diet.
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It's like the first diet to go to. It's always been the Mediterranean diet or the DASH diet, which is something where it's like less processed food, less salt. Yeah.
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Um, and I will say I will admit there are red meats out there that are probably not as good for you. Yes.
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Exactly. But when it comes to like and the ultra processed food spot when you're comparing a beef burger to a regular burger, recent studies are showing that you you're way less likely to develop heart disease by having the
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ultrarocessed vegan burger over the beef burger. We're not surprised by this either. Are we ultrarocessed vegan burger is better?
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Yeah, the Beyond Me one significantly. Pause. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your Sounds a pleasure. Thank you. I really appreciate that. That was a good conversation. Thank you.
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How's it going, dude? What's your name, sir? Hey, my name is Fodella. I am a faux day seller.
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Uh, yes, sir. I'm a cerillionian professional boxer. Cool. Um, I simply just I just want to have the conversation.
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Boxers are vegans, aren't they? Oh, no, they're not. Brian Jennings. Um, yeah. Aali Akali. That's three. Okay. Ali, Frasier.
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I could name you an entire bunch of given the population of vegans. Yes. What's your point?
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That those three either won world championships or competed for them. First of all, David Haye is a bum. Okay.
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Most current fighters that everybody knows here. Who here who here knows David Haye? Anybody? Who knows Mike Tyson?
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There you go. That's the point. Continue. No, I'm saying given the proportion of the amount of people that are vegans and given the given how these people were vegan in the 2010s, I think it's phenomenal that these three were
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some of the best boxers in the world. NovakJovich, the best tennis player in the world, is vegan. Lewis Hamilton, the best Formula 1 driver, is vegan. In my view, the best drummer, Travis Barker, is vegan. All these people are vegan.
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The the very best in the sport in athleticism, are they not? Also, it sort of ignores it, right? So, I'm not interested in sort of going tip for tat and going who's the best boxer in the world. I think some of the best boxers
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in the world are vegan. I think those three people would, you know, take you on any day if you don't mind me saying so.
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You're sleeping on me a bit there, Doc. But here's um here's here's the main thing, right? We think that dog fighting is bad, don't we?
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Yes, we do. So, what happens when we kill the dog? We eat its flesh and then we fight. Is that wrong as well?
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What do you mean we? I don't speak French. I've never done that. So, I've never seen anybody that does that either.
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A chicken. A pig, a cow, a chicken. But you're saying that in such a western term.
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What's the difference? The difference is one we raise as a companion and the other one we raise as food and that makes the moral difference. Why it makes a moral difference because I need to feed my kids. Again,
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do you think cockfighting is bad? Having two chickens with razor blades on their legs.
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That's not what you ask. You ask is it a problem to raise one as a companion?
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We agree that harming animals for sport is bad. And therefore, if we think that it would translate to us harming animals for our own sporting excellence, wouldn't it? No, it would not.
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Why? It would not because of the feeling. You're coming in from a very point of view.
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I'm not emotional at all. You're very emotional. You keep a very stoic face, but you're very emotional on the inside.
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There's nothing wrong with emotions. Emotions are evaluative of things, aren't they? Uh, I guess if you see the world, but you're ignoring the main point. We both agree that harming animals for sport is bad, but you're happy to do it.
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Did I say I was happy to do it? Well, you're on the meat eating side, aren't you?
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Of course, I'm on the meat eating side. Okay. Because I come from a world that's realistic. I come from a continent that needs me of it.
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Brian Jennings and David Tay are all living on the moon. Oh, great. There's one or two people you can name out of a thousand.
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I'm not even I'm not even into boxing and I know the names. Three of them.
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Anybody here knows those people's names? No. Just because you know something they competing for.
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They're one world champion. Have you heard of Novakovic? Of course I have. Okay, that's interesting. He's the probably the best tennis player in the world, isn't he? Oh, he was one of the best tennis players in the world. Have
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you heard of Mike Tyson, Muhammad Ali? Imagine if you had a stake, you'd probably stay the best tennis player in the world, wouldn't you?
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Why not? But let's get back to the actual The actual thing is we we we think that the vegans compete at the highest level alongside the non-vegans. But the non-vegans, they engage in something which we think is morally wrong, which
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is harming animals for sport. Agreed? Uh, no, not at all. I love the way you put things together. Your accent makes it even better. But plain fact, plain fact, plain fact is I I find it quite Are we Are we flirting? Is it
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almost? Maybe if you get a drink after this, you know, just go right now.
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All right. But it's quite concerning and I had to get a bit serious about this.
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You come from a place I believe you're British. Correct. A place that's very greenery. And I come from a Yes. Meaning there's a lot of uh plant space in that region. What you mean?
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Isn't there a bunch of trees, so on and so forth? Probably just as much as the US.
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True. But again, let me finish my point. Let me just clarify. Come on. I come from a continent that has a place called the Sahara Desert that a lot of people depend on me. And you saying that everybody should aim to
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be aim to be that's important. Yes. Yes. Again, let me finish my guy. Aim to be vegan. I think it's very unrealistic in a sense.
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That's the realistic part. Should aim to be not that everyone has to be vegan and there is no circumstances when you can't kill an animal. It's the most sensible claim you could hear. Everyone should aim to be.
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Yes. But there's something called somebody just reading a book continuously and having fantasies and the world we live in.
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Are you saying I just read a book and have fantasies? But you come off as that.
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I've worked I've worked on farms. Great. But have you lived in a place that people depend on me? Have I lived in a place where people depend on meat?
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Yes. Have you seen a That's my point. But the reason a lot of these people depend on meat again as I mentioned earlier because in 82% of the countries where they're starving, the main produce which is the plant-based agricultures
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fed to the animals and prices out the local population. Countries like Sudan, countries like um Ethiopia, those countries have some of the highest.
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Where is Sudan located in Africa? What part of Africa? On the east coast of Africa.
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Subsaharan, right? Yeah. What happened to majority countries which has that cannot grow plants? They you would leave them to depend what you want heavily.
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What do you think they're eating? They're eating camels, are they not? Sorry. Sudan, one of has the one of the biggest livestocks in the whole of Africa and they're the animals there are eating camels.
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Did you hear me say that? I'm trying to understand what you're on about. Okay, let me let me say it very slowly.
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Maybe my American English is not going so well. We're not going on this date, dude.
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Okay, come on. We have to. It's such a great chemistry. What I said was a place like sub subsaran Africa and Sahara Africa itself depend heavily on certain meats.
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Correct. Yeah. And you cannot grow plants in those areas. Force those areas to depend on plants.
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I'm not doing that. We agree. I don't understand what the difference. If you're living in in freaking Greenland or on the North Pole, you can grow plants there either. But my claim is that veganism is the practical rule to avoid the unnecessary suffering
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wherever possible. And my claim now is that everyone should aim to be vegan. But the reason why the overwhelming number of people can't go vegan is because of factory farming, because of animal agriculture. We're not living there now. None of you are living there.
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It's not an excuse for anybody in this room. You keep saying we. First of all, you don't know any anything about these.
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They're all meat ears. So what's wrong with that? First of all, the judgmental side of you is crazy. So we didn't go on this date at all. This judgment.
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Secondly, I know they're all meat eaters. I know they're all um some of people have flew in. Some people have managed to get here and they have access to plant-based products, yet they choose to eat meat.
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Okay, pause. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat. I got you on say I got you there.
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Yeah, I'm breaking protocol. This is real quick. Oh, here's the twist. Just go with it. Just go with it.
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I don't want to waste all their time, but I have You say everybody should be vegan.
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Yeah, aim to be. Everybody should aim to be vegan. Okay. I I can't hide from the fact I'm a carnivore. Um, but there's carnivore.
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Uh, carnivore. There's two groups of people though that I want to challenge your claim on. The first is hunters.
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So, I have a good friend. I grew up in Colorado. I have a good friend. He's a hunter. Probably one of the most ethical people I know. I could make the argument that people like him actually do quite a
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bit to minimize animal suffering because he doesn't participate in industrial farming. He kills his own meat. And he has made the argument to me that, you know, taking an animal's life in the wild, you you're you're sparing that
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animal from the worst death, a worse death that it will experience. Because when an animal dies in the wild, it's usually pretty ugly. It suffers a lot more. So he's reducing the suffering of animals. So I think you might be
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actually more aligned with hunters than you realize. I'm I'm more aligned with hunters than the person who's engaging in factory farming or what they think is conscientious farming. For sure. Um what I will say is first of all the hunters
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typically aren't honest about why they do it. I think they do it because it's fun. I think they do it because it taps into that evolutionary feeling like having sex feels good, being warm feels good, hunting feels good. I don't think
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it's sensible to deny those things. When you look at when the hunting elk and deer, for example, in Wyoming, in the national park there, the state actually fund the feeding of deers and elks during the winter to make sure the
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population's up and then the hunter goes, I'm just there for population control. And in Texas, too, you've got these automatic feeders and so they're keeping the population up just to go hunting. Um, Naggie Ellis did a research paper on this and found that 65% of all
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the deals, deers, and elks that are killed are male. So, if you want to keep the population down, what you do is you kill females. You don't kill 65% males because one male can impregnate five females and so can two, right? So it's
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not that that's not the reason why they're doing it and they're doing it to catch the with the but on the terms optimal system.
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Agreed. Yeah. Yeah. Um so here's here's the problem with the argument that we're relieving the suffering.
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Say for example, I really liked having puppies. I love puppies. I'm a big dog lover myself. But you know, having a dog, it's a handful. So at 11 months old, I sneak up behind my puppy and I slit its throat.
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Right. Right? Kill it quickly. That'd be terrible. Death is bad, right? In and of itself.
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It would be wrong to do that. Even if it was painless, if I had 50 puppies over my life and I just killed them painlessly. So, when you deprive the elk or the deer or the pig of life when
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you're hunting, you're taking away the life in the same way as you might do a puppy. Now there is an argument to say and this is perhaps where we can find some agreement that the deaths are going to be typically worse from uh predators
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natural predators uh wolves um you know big cats than they are going to be for hunters. There are bad hunters too but on the whole you know you can probably expect to to bleed out 30 seconds to a minute um
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average hunter when you you take in a shot with a rifle and that can typically range 8 to 10 minutes if you've got a predator that's crushing a skull or bleeding out of the neck. So you have to
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ask yourself honestly, the average elk or deer has been killed to about four to six years old, but they could live twice that length. So you're depriving them of two minutes of pain and suffering. Yeah.
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But you're also depriving them of six years of life. Right. But I'm I I think a hunter would argue that not they're not killing all the elk. You know, there's it's a unfortunate fate for a select elk, but
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then they're killing that elk for me. So, I guess my only argument is it seems like maybe rejecting hunting might be too myopic or idealistic for your mission because they seem like they're kind of a a good ally for your cause,
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which is to reduce the suffering, frivolous suffering. Yeah, I don't think reducing suffering is all that's important. You could blow up the whole world right now and that would end all suffering, but I don't think that's something we should aspire
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towards. I agree with that. Another question I have, should children be vegan? Yeah. Why doesn't that feel like a bit of a risk? I' I'd say the biggest risks on health outcomes. We're talking overall health outcomes. So, we're trying to
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avoid the nutrition game. Not to dodge the argument, but to go when you're looking at nearly a million people and their health outcomes. Get the kids are going to be like child obesity in this country, right? Huge problem. They're
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going to have lower BMI if they're vegan. They can get all the nutrients that they need on the vegan diet.
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They're less likely to develop these cancers. And, you know, well, it seems obvious that that's something they should be doing.
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You're saying I should take the bacon away from my daughter? Definitely. Even with the ultrarocessed foods, I think we've been speaking about earlier. You have an ultrarocessed Beyond Burger or something, there's been studies that show that they're way
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better than having the beef burgers or the bacon. So, you know, if you want if you want your kid not to be fat, cancer riddled, and have heart problems, then yeah, probably best to make them make them a good old fashioned vegan.
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Okay, I'm off. Yeah. Nice to meet you. Hey, we meet again. Hey. Hey, Dr. Jack.
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Good to see you again. Sorry, we didn't get a chance to let me hear some of your views a bit more this time.
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Thank you very much. Thank you. So, I'm a Greek Orthodox Christian. We spend twothirds of the years as vegans.
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Nice. But I have no issues with anything that you're describing, but I'm also not motivated by the same sort of like singular motivations. So, like I'm not doing it to save the animals. I'm doing it for fasting. I'm doing it for
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restraint. I'm doing it for virtue, you know, virtue development. And so, in a certain sense, I wanted to ask you this.
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If I told you there was a population of Greek Orthodox monks, they all look like Gandalf in Mount Aos and they've been outliving society for 1,200 years and they actually are vegetarians throughout the year and then vegans sort of spliced in. Yeah,
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we actually mimic the same patterns. But, you know, it's just so it's so ironic to me that their goal is to is to pursue virtue and as a result of the second, third, fourth order effects of that, they save a lot of life around
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them. Yeah. Great. And what I've also noticed, a lot of vegans who seem to put and elevate the animal at the top seem to get everything sort of offbalance doing that.
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Like for instance, Christ Spiracy, you ever heard the documentary? The guy basically claims that Jesus came to save animals. Now that might have been a third fourth order effect.
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Humans are animals. Well, beasts of burden. Okay. Um, however, however you want to describe it.
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You'd say they're animals though, right? I would I would. So are we. Um, but the apex predator, the apex creation, you know, my my colleagues here were talking about Genesis. There were only three promises when we left the Garden of
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Eden. Yeah. It was pain, it was work, and it was death. Yeah. Death enters the world so that sin would not live forever. And I thought was interesting is that when Noah's flood occurs, you know, whether it's literal
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or not, that the directive was eat meat so that sin wouldn't live as long.
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And God says like I demand a sacrifice or repentance for all the meat that's eaten as well. He didn't just go to hell with it. Just eat meat. He goes, I want blood for like essentially blood for blood.
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Yes. But then Solomon ends up killing enough animals that you couldn't even count them all at some point. So there's a little bit of a confusion there.
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He's not too happy, is it? What I'm just saying though is that I I agree that there's this aiming, but I also think you have to be careful as to what you're aiming for.
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Yeah. And so I don't think we're aiming for macronutrients. We're aiming for a better world.
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Yeah. Can I ask you about St. Augustine of Hippo? I assume you're familiar with his work, Sixth Century. Uh the, you know, the guy who tells us this original sin and really makes it a thing in the He's more of a Latin group of per
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people, but that's fine. Keep it. No. says we're naturally predisposed towards lying, cheating, stealing. In the atheistic tradition as well, Thomas Hobbes, English philosopher, 17th century, he says our fundamental nature is a war of every man against every man
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and life will be nasty bruises and short. That's our natures, right? He's a apex predator. But we know that we shouldn't lie, cheat, steal, and we shouldn't just engage in wars even though that's in our nature. We've been
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doing it for a long time. So the Christian view, we should transcend that. But the main thing is even if you didn't buy these like vegan Christian arguments and you thought again we spoke earlier God creates the world perfectly
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vegetarian it would be vegetarian at the end of time. So I think that's a really strong argument. I also think that angels mistreating humans is bad and I'm sure you'd agree so it would translate there. I think those are two really
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strong arguments but even with those you'd go okay it doesn't seem like the the naturalistic argument gets you there either.
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Could I just argue though that there's kind of a false dichotomy. It's like unless you're a billionaire you're impoverished. And what I'm saying is that I think people are sort of on a spectrum of that sort of wellness virtue
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um sort of line. And so, you know, I think we're still winning the the the war here against let's say unnecessary suffering or triviality.
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I think it's I think pretty much it's unnecessary not just not just for the animals as well, right? We're stewards of the earth. So when you've got 91% of all deforestation because of because of the cattle industry or because of animal
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agriculture when 80 to 90% of all species are going extinct because of animal agriculture that's WWF and the UN but 99% of all species have have already gone extinct to this point in in human history right and the main driver being the
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consumption of animals the destructions of the ocean I think the Christian has a huge responsibility to be a good steward and not do those things would you agree well I would say that you know rain can cause floods or it can be essential for
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life and I wouldn't fight floods and get rid of rain. You know, I we still need the rain. So, what I'm trying to say is I still feel like the suffering argument from before is kind of still applicable
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now, which is that it's it's inevitable and it's essential. It's not inevitable and it's not essential.
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I don't know if that's true. Come to my ER. Well, I've I mentioned a second ago the Christian ad. I've mentioned this a bunch of times. The University of Oxford 500,000 people. I think that's really strong evidence to say you don't need
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it. I I wrote a book on the topic. I think you're right. The point is the difference is the difference is is that the aim the aim has to be right. The aim has to be right. Dr. Jack
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pause. You've been voted out by the majority. My next surrounded claim is that factory farming is one of the worst moral atrocities in history.
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All right. If you would like to debate this claim, get to the chair in three, two one.
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Hey, bud. How's it going? Hey. All right. What's your name? Sorry. Gerard. Nice to meet you, Gerard.
Speaker A
Okay. So, you said one of So, I just want to get the ranking system down here. Okay. So, we're going to have Holocaust up here. Is factory farming better or worse than the Holocaust?
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I don't want to play top trumps with the worst things happened. I'm saying one after the worst thing that's happened.
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Well, I'd like to know though, like where because you clearly have some metric. You want to hear the Do you want to hear the reason? Do you want to hear the reason and then you can respond?
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Well, I want to know the rankings. So, we have Armenian where they need I'll give you the argument. I'll be quick and you can come straight back. So there around 80 billion cows, pigs, chickens, turkeys that are slaughtered every year for
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human consumption. When it comes to fish, it's in between three and 10 trillion. The difficulty in getting the fish is for every pound of fish you catch, you get about 3 to 5 pounds of bill. So we're talking trillions and
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tens of billions. But it's not just the non-human animal suffering which is bad. Obviously factory farming has huge impacts on people. Earlier on, we were speaking about how 30 to 60 million children die of starvation each year.
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82% living in countries where the majority of the produce is fed to non-human animals. It's also true and I'll just give you one more example of diseases too. According to the World Health Organization, 75% of all emerging diseases are zunotic. Zunotic diseases
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such as Ebola, swine flu, arguably COVID 19 on the fence. Okay, let me go through as well. So you got tens of millions of deaths, hundreds of millions of deaths and the climate destruction.
Speaker A
So first you started with the numbers of death of animals, right? Like that's a relevant metric for you. How many deaths of cows is equal to the death of one Jewish person in Awitz? Give me the number.
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How many cows for one? Because you said I asked you why it was bad and you said because the number of cows that are slaughtered every year. So I'm asking you what's your ratio like how many cows dying is as bad as someone
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getting gassed in Awitz? Well, can we can we extract the Jewish personal? I'm just using I'm using the word I can think of.
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Well, I don't like to play into the How about the Armenian genocide? Can we talk about that one?
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How many cows are worth a human being? I think I think a I think a human being is significantly more valuable than a cow.
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How much? Why? Because a cow lives for 20 years and a human being will live for 70 or 80 years.
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So four so a cow is or four cows is roughly I'll give you a number. I'll say a thousand cows.
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A thousand cows is the worth of a human being as all human beings. That's just arbitrary number.
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Well, so you're being arbitrary. You're not like you're not locked into some sort of like metric.
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I don't know how many cows. No. Well, but you seem to be very confident that factory farming is bad because of the numbers, right? That's the very first thing you human beings as well. I'm saying I'm saying if you
Speaker A
No, hold on. The you're being disingenuous on the human being. So imagine right now a number. Now let's No, no. Imagine a world where I can create farming where no humans die, but the animals are still going to die.
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You're not going to be okay with that. No, I'm not going to be okay. So it's not about it's unnecessary. It's not about the human, right? So let's focus on your actual objection. The number of animals that are dying.
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Did you hear my definition of veganism earlier? No. Well, I was you should you gave several, but anyways, I gave you one definition and I said that veganism is an ethical rule to avoid products and practices that cause
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unnecessary suffering to animals. Human beings are animals. So, I do care about human beings, right? But you don't care about human beings above cows. Except I guess you do one ratio. Why wouldn't I put human beings in there?
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Well, human beings are animals, but I the only ones I care. So, I do care about human beings.
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Well, you care about some animals. No, I care about human beings cuz that includes animals. And I point there are non-human animal deaths. Now I'm asking you if let's say there are two boats and one of them is going No. I'm going to
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give you a hypothetical and I'd like you to answer it please just briefly. I'll be very brief. There are two boats. One has 3,000 cows. One has a human being on it. One of the boats will sink. Which
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boat will you sink? 3,000 cows or will you kill a human being? I'll kill the human being.
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Over 3,000 cows. 2,000 cows. You'll kill a human being to save 2,000 cows. Yeah. What about you?
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How about chickens? What about you? I'm saving the human every time in infinite an infinite number of cows.
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An infinite number of cows would have the problem of then the world would be out of cows and I wouldn't want that to happen. But that's ultimately my commitment. Any animal would you put on there because we're talking about
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veganism. Any animal you put on there. Any non-human? No. Human animals are the only animals I have moral agency for.
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Okay. So, how about Neanderthalss who were our ancestors 40,000 years ago who your ancestors would be having sex with who would look just like a Well, they were.
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Well, I don't really have any moral relationship with the Neanderthalss. If you change the hypothetical, so I do that.
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So, are humans more valuable than the Neanderthals? Because morality stems from our relationships with others. It doesn't stem from some weird trait like do they feel pain just from the relationship because you think you think it stems from feeling pain you think it stems
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from feeling pain that's silly no yes it does morality comes from comes from pain I said any of the major world philosophies would agree with me which is a great appeal to authority and I'm very happy it's not an appeal to
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authority it's true because all the major philosophies say that so plonism wouldn't agree with you on there so that's plism wouldn't agree with what feeling pain that feeling pain is like the end all beall of like what morality is
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basically I didn't say it was the end all be all moral so if tomorrow science Scientists came out and they said it actually treats people.
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Plato's form of the good coincides with unnecessary suffering and pain. It coincides with eating vegan. Would you brought together for a vegan?
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Then you're going to be harmed forever. No. If you're brought together with the form of the good, you have no problem killing animals for food. That's why the people who studied Platonism, Plato, Aristotle, Socrates ate meat.
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You think the form of the good involves a necessary pain? Yeah, I think we're getting a little in the weeds, but it can involve unnecessary pain on things that are not part of your moral community. Yeah, it's not relevant. So you think plans would
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allow extreme suffering for trivial pleasure? Not for no good reason. No, that's going back to your first claim that it's trivial. Meeting is not a trivial pleasure. But I'm going to try to stick.
Speaker A
How is it not a trivial pleasure? If not plants could feel harm, how is it not a trivial pleasure? You can't just interrupt me in the conversation.
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Answered all of your questions. You have not. I'm actually trying to ask you one. If tomorrow it came out that No, you asked me several. If it came out tomorrow could feel pain five times as strongly as animals, would you say we
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can't eat trees? Pause. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat.
Speaker A
I would. Okay. Thank you. Appreciate it. How's it going, buddy? What's your name? I'm David.
Speaker A
Nice to meet you, David. Jack Jack, right? How you doing? I'm good. So, um, you mentioned that you see killing animals and meat eating as trivial pleasures, correct?
Speaker A
Yeah. So, I just wanted to ask you, are you religious in any way? Uh, the religious say I'm not, and the atheists would say I'm not an atheist either. I'm what you call a pantheist. I believe God and the world are identical.
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And obviously the Christians, the Jews, the Muslims have told us that that not that's not Abrahamic. And the atheists would say it's ridiculous to call the world God. So I'm sort of religiously homeless. But I I consider myself to be
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a pantheist and a religious believer. Okay. No problem. Um trivally speaking. Okay. I'm personally Christian. So great. Cool.
Speaker A
Yeah. So I wanted to say that um killing animals, it's not something that's binary. It's not something that's a trivial pleasure. Um that's something that you keep mentioning that Do you believe in the Bible?
Speaker A
Yes. And in the Bible, in the Bible, in Genesis, it mentions that animals, they were created for humans to consume.
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Genesis 1:29, the first teaching on it, God gives human beings a strictly vegetarian diet.
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God also says in the Bible, in Genesis, that animals are meant to be consumed and killed by after we sin. So God creates the world.
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Genesis 1:29, he says we're allowed to eat fruits and trees that bear seeds. Then the original sin, i.e. evil, enters the world. And at the end of time, Isaiah at the end of time is that has nothing to do with
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At the end of time, Isaiah 11, the f the lion will eat straw with the ox. So it's almost as if on the Christian tradition, the whole world is sandwiched together in veganism. God creates the world perfectly. We sin and live in sin and at
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the end of time, we're brought together with God in vegetarianism again. Okay. Um, like I was saying, I So you should be a vegetarian.
Speaker A
It's not exclusively It's not exclusively vegan. I'm not I'm not going to be a vegetarian.
Speaker A
It is vegan. It's exclusively vegan. Genesis 129 is vegan. Noah's ar Noah's ark was made for a purpose. Correct.
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Right. So Noah, he was brought to earth. He was brought punishing human beings for their sin. He punishes the animals.
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He was brought to earth and he was creating a ship and he made all these animals come on a ship for them to survive and carry out their life, receiving all those nutrients from the animals, receiving all the benefits. You
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know, they have side products too. They have byproducts, right? Animals that create all these, as you say, it's meant for trivial pleasures. Um, they create a lot of byproducts that are helping with medicine. That's a different helping with the Christian argument. God did
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create the world vegetarian. You keep mentioning that all these people are dying because people are eating meat. Correct. But people are also surviving because people are eating meat. I think the trade-offs for eating meat and why did God create the world that way?
Speaker A
I don't have all the answers. I'm not God. I'm not God. And God had to create perfect.
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I'm not God. That that's not the basis of my argument either. I'm just saying that animals have a lot more benefits as opposed to negative.
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I'm on your I'm telling you right now. I'm on your side. I'm on your side. I'm saying animals have a lot more benefits as opposed to negatives. And you're talking about it's true. God created the world.
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not trivial. That's that's from a very like binary sense of thinking. If God creates the world perfectly and then we sin, definitionally, it's worse to eat meat than not to eat meat. But there's a separate argument as well.
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You spoke yourself about utilitarianism, correct? Is it not benefiting a greater number of people to eat meat to consume meat and to have all those byproducts of meat to help many people with medicine, with clothing because it destroys it
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destroys wildlife to be good. We're supposed to be to have all those products as opposed to not supposed to be stewards of the earth. According to Robert Goodman, 51% of all human cause of all climate change is caused by the
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animal agriculture industry. There is no way that on a Christian worldview you can justify factory farming.
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The last the last two popes have both condemned factory farming in their own words. This it is not a Christian worldview. David Cloth, the Christian theologian, the veangalist he calls himself has made this case very strongly. But there's a separate
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argument as well very briefly in Revelations 20. God cast down Satan to hell for all of eternity for the things that Satan did. There is a great chain of being on Christianity. God, angels, humans, non-human animals, plants. When
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the angels sin and exploit the people below them, such as Satan leading humanity astray in the garden, exploit the people below them. Leads them astray, creates evil. Then God punishes them. So he punishes the angels even though they're more rational, more
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have more free will, have more powers, and they're closer to God and the great chain of being, he punishes them for hurting humans. He will punish humans too for hurting animals. God loves even the sparrows. Matthew 10. Matthew 12.
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What do you mean you don't believe? It's the Bible. It's your scripture. Genesis. You don't believe the Bible then.
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Genesis 129 does say that. Pause. Pick it up. Please return to your seat. Hey, pleasure. Thank you. Cheers.
Speaker A
Yeah. You've been making a lot of movement back there. You seem a little bit. Yes.
Speaker A
Excited. What's your name? Sorry. Singen. Singen. That's an interesting name. You know, you were talking about how, you know, God made the whole the idea of making it a vegetarian diet. The what introduced the world to sin was a is Eve
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eating a fruit. Classic women. Oh, okay. I wasn't going to this. No, I'm just kidding. Sorry, it's a joke. English humor.
Speaker A
Okay, fair enough. But yeah, so it was an apple or at least that's what we was a fruit. It could have been watermelon.
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It could have been a pineapple. We're not told. Yeah. But as far as we know, it was a fruit that, you know, when Eve ate it, introduced sin into the world.
Speaker A
Yeah. So like you could say that, oh yeah, God didn't want the whole just to only eat me. But it's a re the one of the fruits is one of the reasons that sin was introduced into it. Temptation, fruit, and sin.
Speaker A
Yeah. It's a metaphor though, isn't it? It's it's an allegory. It's not actually a real It wasn't Adam and Eve and they didn't eat a real fruit. If you think that they did, you know, the point of God picking out that fruit was to say,
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you know, don't rebel against me like Lucifer did, right? He's saying, you will do better. You made in my image in margo day here on earth reflects my goodness.
Speaker A
Okay. So, yeah, but what, as I was saying a moment ago, Genesis 1:29, he creates the world vegan. God's perfect. God God is the greatest of all conceivable beings.
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And so definitionally, if you think God is perfect and create the world perfectly, then being vegan or vegetarian is morally superior on the Abrahamic worldview while excluding Muslims because they have a different creation story. If you're Jewish or if
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you're Christian, then that would hold. I also want to ask, you have been a uh philosopher for how many years now by chance?
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Uh I've lost count, maybe 16, 17 years. Okay. And I believe that a majority of the ancient philosophers, they look at it through a human perspective, not an animal perspective. Yeah. And they are not necessarily thinking about the
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animals. It's not because they don't care about the animals. Obviously, life is important, but at the end of the day, at the social hierarchy, the more superior and more capable being, you know, trumps over say a cow and a chicken. Like, yes, you know, cows
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and chickens are cute and all. Sorry, I'm not playing footsy with you. But yeah, but the humans are the dominant species, top of the food chain, dominate. And there's also the philosophy, I don't I don't remember the exact name of it, but that life consumes
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life. And it's not through anything malice, but it's rather just to help, you know, sustain us because there's a lot of So this this commits, and we heard it a version of it earlier on, but your girl was just, you know, I don't know what
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what she was doing. Plants matter. So So then it was the naturalistic fallacy. David Hume in the 18th century says, "Explanation and observation aren't the same thing as justification." For example, evolution by natural selection dictates that we have a
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biological drive towards having sex and reproducing. But what it doesn't do is give us a drive towards consensual sex and non-consensual sex. But we'd both agree that consensual sex is more moral than non-consentual sex. So therefore, we should take that drive and do
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otherwise. If you want to go the evolution route, then there's a lot of animals that have also evolved over time to be better hunters.
Speaker A
You've been voted out by the majority. That was fast. All right, you're all good.
Speaker A
Hey, nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. What's your name? Sorry. Dada. Dra.
Speaker A
Yes. Nice to meet you, Dara. I'm Jack. Nice to meet you. How goes it? What's going on?
Speaker A
It's going well. So, sorry for starting again with like the Christian argument. Christian. I thought I thought um Yes. I thought um Jesus fed people fish.
Speaker A
Uh there's nothing of Jesus feeding people. Well, the if Jesus was to feed people, he would have fed people fish.
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Yeah. Yeah. So what what how is it like non it's probably the best it's probably the best objection to all Christians should be vegan for sure the only thing which we can say accurately from the scriptures that he probably did eat fish
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he obviously comparably also says uh God loves even the sparrows Matthew 10 he also says in Matthew 12 when there's a lamb down a hole he's speaking to the Pharisees he goes even on your day off boys you're going to help that lamb out
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of there aren't you and they go why would we do that and they go because humans are more valuable but it's got comparable value. Um, it depends whether you read it allegorically or not. It depends whether you want to separate the
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historical Jesus from the regular Jesus. Historically in Palestine, Jesus would have had slaves. Jesus would have been married. It's not typically what people think Jesus is going to be, right? Like that's why I use in the Old Testament, it's it's like really
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outdated when you're talking to a Christian because in the Old Testament, they tell you about how to manage your slaves and you can we all agree that slavery is not right. So, if you use the Old Testament, it's really like not a
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valid argument for a Christian. Do you think it was relevant that Jesus was a man?
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No. Palestinian? No. Human? Yes. Why? Um because he came for humans. Just for humans, not for the whole world. I thought it made it pretty clear that it was for to unite God with the whole of his creation.
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That like I I don't think he ever spoke about salvation of cows. No, not salvation of cows, but the whole world. He made it clear that it he was here for the uh and he spoke to humans. I don't think he
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ever like evangelized cows or like butterflies and birds and talked to them about repentance and Right.
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So God so Jesus doesn't value the non-human animals. He didn't come here to evangelize cows and birds.
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No, because he they don't speak that. So it is relevant that he's a human and not a cow because he came to evangelize and to sal like for the salvation of humans. Sorry.
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Yeah. But he also came my argument was that that he also came in that time and place for Palestinians in the first century. But he came for all people.
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Even though we weren't there at that time and place and even though he's a man and a Palestinian, he's still here for you and I right now according to the Christian tradition. And again, the the the Christian doesn't the Christian
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doesn't go the whole of the Old Testament is a load of rubbish and we shouldn't take it seriously.
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Yeah. No, no, not at all. And and so God did create the world and made it vegan and vegetarian. And at the end of time when the line eats straw with the ox, it seems like that is better for the
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Christian to do. Okay. Okay. That's okay. Let's leave it there. Let's leave it there because this is not a history class. So, how can you evaluate suffering?
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How can I evaluate it? Yeah. How can you say that something suffers more than something else, right?
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You value you value like the lives of all animals equally, right? The mistake I think people make about veganism is that we think that all animals are equal. There's a level playing field and that they're all, you know,
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so you do have a hierarchy for your suffering, a hierarchy for animals. And where do you get that information from?
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It's not scientical, right? Yeah. It's it's a blend of um neuroscience. It's a blend of animal behavior and and information we can get from zoologologists. Um so you're arguing that because there are like this amount of cows and they have
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this amount of nervous terminal then that equates to like this amount of humans. Yeah. If you look at the neck of a chicken, a cow or a pig, you'll find that it's got very similar nerve endings and buns and
Speaker A
Okay. So you did all the mathematics to decide that it was more. It's like if you got the same nerve endings on your neck and you've got to develop you need to do a mathematics to create that hierarchy. And I'm not saying that
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is I'm not saying that it's not a strategy. I can't do maths. I'm saying if you slip my throat and you slit a cow's throat, you're going to feel a very similar amount of pain.
Speaker A
Okay. I it's a sensible inference. Okay. How many different nervous systems? How many what how many like nervous systems? Like how how many nervous system like why like nervous terminal nervous terminals?
Speaker A
Well, how are you comparing that? How do you know? How do I know? Cuz you that the cow and the chicken and the I don't know about you either, but you have to make a central inference. This is Daycart's problem of other minds, but
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there are sensual inferences that you can draw on the base of it. So, how could you know all this information? How do you make hierarchy?
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Well, if I slit your throat now, would that be bad? I don't know whether you can suffer or not.
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Pause. You've been voted out really threatening at the end. I didn't want to end on that note.
Speaker A
Hey, you're good. You're an animal as well, so I wouldn't slit your throat. We're good. We're good. Nice to meet you too.
Speaker A
Hey dude, nice to meet you. What's your name? Vador. Vador. I like your shirt.
Speaker A
I like yours, too. Very cool. Thank you. Um I I got long so I agree. Uh your uh points about veganism and your definitions are very correct, but I disagree with the claim that you just made about it being the uh
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biggest uh atrocity in the world because I think the biggest atrocity would be people dying and the biggest atrocity.
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is one of one of the biggest atrocities but I think one of the biggest atrocities would be people dying and starving in places like Mongolia or in places like Antarctica where um growing plants is maybe you know harder and um you know
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where major consumption of food is through meat and I agree with you completely and that's why I said veganism is a practical rule to do it as far as possible and also as I mentioned it doesn't justify the majority of these
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children are starving in countries where the produce is fed to the fed to the animals and I think zenotic diseases taking tens of millions lives as bad. So even if you don't care about non-human animals, you should be vegan for the
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sake of human beings as well. I I'm join convert. Are you there vegan? Yeah, you can take my seat.
Speaker A
I was I was vegetarian for like 6 months, but you know, come back. Yeah, but I think I was I feel more more like myself.
Speaker A
Can we have you back in the chair later? Can we have him back? The time has gone.
Speaker A
Oh, yeah. You definitely can choose someone later. Oh, cool. Yeah, nice one. Great. I might see you later. I don't want to shoot everyone down just yet. Thanks everyone.
Speaker A
My final surrounded claim is that veganism is good for the world and humanity. If you would like to debate this claim, get to the chair in three, two, one.
Speaker A
Nope. Hey, Jack. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you, Alex. Nice to meet you. Okay, so two things.
Speaker A
First, speak up a little bit. You have selective hearing and don't do religion because I'll just ignore it. Do you want to hear? Just I'll be brief. I'll give you the reasons. Sure. You can tell me where it
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goes wrong. So, it's good for the world more generally because it's one of the leading causes of climate change. It's good for humanity as well. Let's just take zunotic diseases as an example. So, 75% of all xenotic diseases that are
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emerging according to the World Health Organization are those that come from non-human animals. That's really dangerous because we haven't built up natural immunity to them. One of the leading theories according to the World Health Organization or what they think
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is the leading cause of COVID was the wet market in Wyang killed 8 million people. Again, I'm not interested in like debating the cause of CO, so let's just go Ebola, swine flu, and bird flu, obviously, coming from births. So, I
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think that if you don't want vaccinations, we don't want mandatory lockdowns. We don't want forced masks, and we don't want tens of millions people of dying in the future. One of the biggest risks to humanity is going to be zenotic diseases. So, I think
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that's a really strong reason. And then the refugees and all of the climate destruction and the deaths that are going to come from climate change. So, I think those are two really good reasons.
Speaker A
Okay. So, I've got two really important things that I want to ask you. So, animal testing.
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Yeah. for all of the devices immunizations they need to per the FDA do animal testing first so that they get approved for human use.
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So are you saying that shouldn't be a thing? Yeah, there's a researcher at Cornell University, a biochemical engineer that thinks only 6% of all of the experiments done on non-human animals transfer.
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Harry Harlow was the chief editor of one of the biggest journals in this area. He looked at 20 Where's the research?
Speaker A
So he looked at 2005. Where's the research? He I'm giving you now. No, no, no. I want to know the who wrote the paper.
Speaker A
Oh, Harri Harlow, the editor of the Journal of Comparative and Physiological Psychology. Really? And you think that's enough to prove your point?
Speaker A
He looked at 2,500 articles and he said, quote, "Most of the observations, most of the data is not worth publishing and not most of the experiments are not worth doing." Re so you're he's straight from the horse's mouth.
Speaker A
No, no, no. Hold on. So you're basing what you just said on one person's opinion.
Speaker A
No, I just told you 6% of his opinion on what a whole bunch of other people one of the experts in the area. Yeah.
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And I also said that the biochemical engineer at Cornell said the same. So you'd be comfortable with Michael Schuler.
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Okay. So anyway, can I finish? No. Can I finish? Thank you. Um excuse me.
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I I grew up in New York. Um would you have just wiped out animal testing alto together from the beginning?
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Never done it. I think well we wouldn't have had uh several vaccinations if we if we tested them on animals first.
Speaker A
Um I think that the argument most often given here is for cancer research and it's shown to have virtually no effect whatsoever. So I think that's one reason though if you're going to test it, you test it on human beings.
Speaker A
All right. Well, I I politely disagree. I wouldn't say it was polite, but thank you. I didn't say pause. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat.
Speaker A
Hey, we're good. We're good. Hey, nice to meet you, Alex. Thank you. Appreciate it.
Speaker A
Hey, Brighton. Hey, nice to meet you, Brighton. Nice to meet you. So, I would say veganism is not good for the world. And my number one point is burgers.
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Have you ever had a burger? Yeah. With cheese on it? Yeah. Have you had a burger? And what do you think? Uh, I think that people aren't the experts they think about their own mind. Giovani Savani did a study in 2023
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where he looked at 175 people and give them blind taste tests and informed taste tests. The majority couldn't figure out which one was the beef burger and the plant-based burger. And when on the informed taste test, they all
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preferred the plant-based burger over the beef burger. So, no, I don't buy it. When we look at what people do when they're not in this debate setting, it's not clear that they prefer it. But I would say that I prefer Yeah, of course.
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cheeseburgers, like real cheeseburgers, and I could tell the difference. I have like really good taste buds.
Speaker A
Yeah. So, I really like when it's not like fake cheeseburgers. Yeah, go for it.
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I prefer like they taste like You understand there going to be limits to this, right? You like doing lots of things. I assume you like having sex as well, but you certainly want to I imagine that you want to get it in an
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ethical way. Yeah, obviously. But I think I can get I mean if I just go to like the store and buy a burger, that's pretty ethical to me. But my other argument, you you mentioned Let me give Let me give you this
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question. You can have sex and it was unethical, non-consentual, but it was great. Or you can have the consensual sex and it's not quite as good. Which one do you pick?
Speaker A
Probably a cheeseburger. I think um I think you pick out the two of them.
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Which one do you pick out of the two of them? Just pick one. The ethical The pick.
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Well, the ethical one. But I would choose a cheeseburger for sex any day. I think. Okay. Can I Can I make another point? Of course. Okay. Thank you.
Speaker A
I'm glad we agree on that, though. Absolutely. Uh my other point would be you mentioned a lot of athletes, right?
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You were talking about athletes, boxers. I don't know boxers too well, but I know basketball players and the best basketball player in the world, LeBron James. He eats all the meat.
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So, I'm going to I'm going to eat the meat and I'm going to become like a really good athlete. That's how I feel like like all the best athletes in the world are eating so much meat.
Speaker A
Not all the best athletes in the world. I gave you some examples. LeBron James.
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He's the best. Okay, pause. Pause. You've been voted out by the majority. Awesome. Hey, get yourself a Beyond Burger dude.
Speaker A
Hey, go ahead. That was a big jump. All right. Well, I am Mario. Is that your name, Mario? Yes, it is.
Speaker A
Hey, nice to meet you, Mario. All right, so uh bad for the world, you say. Um, see these two here? These are opposable thumbs. We evolved these in order to hunt better. these two pair of legs bipedal. We are bipedal to become
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better hunters. Even communicating with each other, we've evolved to become better hunters. Our entire existence as a as human species has been around eating meats. And for you to just say all of a sudden with to be like, "Oh,
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you shouldn't do that anymore." is kind of asinine. Asinine. Okay. Sorry, I don't know that word.
Speaker A
It's it's just it's the audac the audacity to just like assume that audacious. I didn't say everyone said everyone should aim to be for a start to be and your argument makes the naturalistic fallacy. We've spoken about it a bunch
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of times. There are loads of things that evolution by natural selection dictates that we should do that says descriptively we can give an explanation for it. That doesn't mean we should do that thing.
Speaker A
Okay. Well, here's another question. We we we've engaged in how many wars? True. And we shouldn't keep doing that. Agree.
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We shouldn't. We shouldn't. Why shouldn't we? And why should we do that? I don't know if you should bring this one up right now.
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But answer why shouldn't we do that? Why should we engage in war? Because it's it's killing our own people. People, but only humans count.
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Yes. I don't think that's unethical to say because we are human. News flash, we're both human.
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So, it's circular. Humans matter because they're humans. And why do humans matter? Because they're humans.
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Yes. So, it's a circular argument. I would I would You know what? You can't ground it in anything else.
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Well, let me ask you this. If the human was dead and one was alive, which one would you give the better treatment?
Speaker A
Uh, the one that is already that's still alive. The one that's alive. Yeah. So, it's not just about being human. It's about being a living human. the conscious human or the non-conscious human. The one that can feel pain the pleasure. The one
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that's got freedom of the will. The one that's got projects, long lives to live.
Speaker A
It's not just the fact they're human. There are lots of intrinsic values to being a human being that are comparable to a non-human animal.
Speaker A
Absolutely. So, okay. Absolutely. That's great. So, it's not just here's the thing. And it's comparable to animals. Would you agree with that, Ben? See, you've changed your mind.
Speaker A
I wouldn't say I wouldn't say it's comparable to animals because even earlier even earlier, you just said even you just said to someone I don't want a new argument.
Speaker A
I want the thing we're talking about. I don't want to move the goalpost. You said being human is valuable because it's human. And then you've listed a bunch of things that are valuable about being human and they count for non-human
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animals as well. No, they don't because animals do not animals aren't conscious. They do not have animals aren't conscious.
Speaker A
They are alive. They are alive. They are plants. But yeah, but okay. So animals don't have the level of consciousness that humans.
Speaker A
What does level of consciousness mean? So they don't feel empathy or an elephant when it comes across another dead elephant will cry even if it doesn't know it. Is that empathy? True.
Speaker A
The gorilla cries when his kitten died. That's empathy. Regardless what you said was wrong.
Speaker A
I would also say that you think you're doing so much to help these animals. But let's let's put an example here. We have two baskets in a grocery cart. One is a pound of carrots and the other is a
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pound of rotisserie chickens. Let's say three of them. Three rotisserie chickens versus one pound of carrots.
Speaker A
Some bad shopping right there, dude. Well, yeah, obviously, but it's just an example, but said said carrots had just arguably more death involved in getting those carrots to the grocery store than those three chickens because of all the pests and rats and rabbits.
Speaker A
They've been over this. 80% of the soy is given to non-human animals, factory farming, 40 to1 in your calories. I'm not I'm not defending.
Speaker A
So, if you want to reduce if you want to reduce by 75% loaded out by the majority, please return to Thank you, Marian. You take care.
Speaker A
Hey, how's it going? Sorry, remind me of your name. It's a bit. How you doing, B?
Speaker A
Good, good, good, good. Okay, so let me ask you something. Do you eat corn? And not really.
Speaker A
You don't eat it? It's not for me. No. Okay. But vegans do eat corn. It is. You would consider corn vegan?
Speaker A
I think I'd consider corn vegan. Okay. So, I mean, if you're saying that everybody should strive or, you know, the best they can to become vegan, then uh some vegans are going to choose to eat corn.
Speaker A
Yeah. Okay. How is corn grown? Uh, you put it in the ground, you put water on it, it put sunlight on it.
Speaker A
Okay, but it grows in soil. Yeah. And how does soil grow? How does soil grow?
Speaker A
Well, how does soil grow plants? No. How does soil grow the plants? What What does soil mean?
Speaker A
Nutrients in the soil. And what are the nutrients from? Come on, dude. What is it?
Speaker A
Where where are the nutrients come from? The sunlight and the water. Not the sunlight anymore. We don't have enough sunlight.
Speaker A
Come on, just get from the animals that are grazing on the fossil fuels. Fossil fuels are used to grow corn.
Speaker A
So, what's the problem? Just jump to We haven't got too long. I want to know the the contradiction.
Speaker A
So, so the point is you're saying that we want to do better for the environment.
Speaker A
Of course. Would you say that fossil fuels are good for the environment? Um, I would say using fossil fuels should be avoided. However, the whole of the animal agricultural industry according to the UN and one of the most
Speaker A
conservative figures is the animal agricultural industry all of transport combined every plane, train and car. Put that next to factory farming and the animal agricultural industry. Animal agriculture is more and when you once you account for deforestation okay and the emissions from the animals
Speaker A
just very quickly I'm literally going to finish and once you account for all the side effects of it too and all the waste then it becomes about three or four times as much cows don't need to eat corn what do cows
Speaker A
normally eat uh they can eat grass they can eat exactly grass so if we just fed cows grass their natural diet which is actually healthier for them which would actually prohibit what does overzing do and overg grazing creates dead zones
Speaker A
Yeah, 35% of all the US mainland is used for growing cattle. 35% if we if we went back to a hunting gathering society and I know that's very very very very um how many people could for 10,000 years we've been that sustain
Speaker A
well it would sustain the people that live within that area. What has happened? How many people could the world? It's a phantom cap. It's phantom capacity right now because of the growth of grains. The growth of grains and corn
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have caused overp production which now people are more dependent on it. It's a so I'm saying if we taught people how to actually get food in the areas that they are in and you do regen regenerative farming which is actually very
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gather. Well, we can do we can do a hybrid. So how because we're at this point you're not going to have we've got 8 billion people on 17 million and it's not how do we get how did we get 8 billion
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people reproducing having sex but how uh I'm not going to give you that lesson here on come on I'm being dead serious so we have taken our food production right dispersed it throughout the world we have made people dependent on us as
Speaker A
opposed to being dependent on the land that they live in and teaching them how to actually survive in their own areas the current animal agricultural industry is destroying the planet and destroying wildlife.
Speaker A
I think the current production of feeding them corn and diets they current agricultural industry destroying the planet. I think factory farming is of course and I disagree I disagree with not just factory farming not just factory farm current animal agricultural
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practices no I don't I don't I I can't do you have stat do you have yeah but if you want cattle raised on grass you have to engage in deforestation or you buffalo what if we bring back because a
Speaker A
lot of this area had buffalo it's not necessary why are you trying to talk through every single me I would eat buffalo it's a natural animal that that has survived in North America that we wiped out when the
Speaker A
Europeans came over here, right? We wiped it all out. We put agriculture into our country, right? And now we are stuck in this what has been created from 10,000 years ago.
Speaker A
So, either go catch yourself a buffalo or get a plant-based diet. No. Well, maybe I will. I will. I will.
Speaker A
So, you going to catch? Maybe I will. You going to be a vegan? No.
Speaker A
Let me know when you do. I've got a strong bet against you. Okay. Please return to your seat.
Speaker A
Thank you. Good to see you again. Little jog ahead. Uh, okay. This is my first time.
Speaker A
Oh, sorry. Apologies. I actually do have a a a general question for you. I do think you can make a lot of valid points in and I'm learning a lot there. What would be the which ones do you think were valid?
Speaker A
Well, I don't agree with factory farming. So, yeah, we're Yeah, that's where we have comment and the conscientious farming.
Speaker A
Yeah. Slitting an animal's throat, debeac in it, then. Yeah, we we we're on the same page there.
Speaker A
Okay. So, no. So, that that's basically all farming. No, that's not all farming. Well, 998 for a thousand chickens are factory farmed and the other two are probably conscientiously farmed. You got no chickens now.
Speaker A
Okay. So, the question Sorry, but we agree on so much there because I think I think if you're going to go 99.9% of all animal consumption is bad and I don't think I should do it and I'm going to take the steps to do it,
Speaker A
then that's you know, as far as I'm concerned, that's fine. I'm happy with that. desert island scenarios where it's force ch you have to pick between you and the pig. That's never gonna happen to you. So I don't think you need to
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worry about it. So like if you agree with me that far then we're basically on the same page. We're doing the trivial stuff now. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker A
Okay. So yeah and this this is what would be the economic impact of us not having a agricultural farm based.
Speaker A
Yeah. So given the fact it's one of if not the leading cause of climate change, the World Bank think you're going to lose about 10 to 20 trillion dollars of net GDP by 2100. Uh that's you know if
Speaker A
we got 100 trillion in global GDP at the moment taking 20% out of it it's going to have huge effects for the whole world.
Speaker A
What about the job market? Well take 20 trillion out it's a really bad How would you replace that? I I I don't see how that in some economies this is a big export and a very very big thing. So
Speaker A
how would you replace that? It's a big export in places where the people are starving especially. So if you switch to plant-based agriculture for a start you're not going to lose that 10 to 20 trillion if we do take the necessary
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steps on climate change and the people who are engaging in animal agriculture at the moment they switch to plant-based agriculture.
Speaker A
Are there any supply chain issues? Uh I imag do you have any ideas about any?
Speaker A
No I'm I'm I don't think so. I'm asking you. Switch the plants for the animals. Yeah.
Speaker A
So there would be you think there'd be no supply chain issues. would be no issues for us switching from a in an ideal world, right? So, in your ideal world where we're 100% I think the cost of not doing it is just
Speaker A
it's monumental. Uh when you look at um 250 million excess deaths, I expect we're talking about climate again and some of the crazier ones like Robert Pierce think it's goes to about a billion excess deaths. Like these numbers are astronomical, right? And
Speaker A
there's no recovering from going to two or three degrees over and the zunotic deaths as well because of the the crossover in diseases. And so the cost that it's going to have to the global economy because of the excess deaths
Speaker A
like the 70,000 extra people being displaced every year again leading cause being animal agricultures and um and being the uh the the global emergency in terms of climate change. So you know you've got a lot of people moving around
Speaker A
as well and these things are awful for the economy. Okay, pause here. You've been voted out by the majority. Please return to your seat. Cheers. Thank you.
Speaker A
Good to see you again. Good to see you again. All right. What you been thinking about?
Speaker A
So, I've been thinking about specifically the humanity part. You know, being vegan, good for humanity.
Speaker A
Humans like you and me. You won't like this. I'm a chef. So, I cook with a lot of food all the time. I do cook vegan dishes, but a lot of animal products I use.
Speaker A
What vegan dishes do you make? What's your best vegan dish? From what I remember, it arugula endive bowl. I've got arugula and dive figs.
Speaker A
Actually, never mind. There's goat cheese in that. Sorry. Forget that. But from my experience and the research I've done, yeah, you need at least some animal product to survive because like a lot of the vegan diet is good. A lot of it's good, the
Speaker A
fruits and veggies and everything. But what makes you think that though? What makes me think the vegan is meat is good? Because No. What makes you think that you need to eat meat to survive and thrive?
Speaker A
Because I found out recently, I've been doing a lot more of a health to get in better shape. And I found that the more protein I eat from meat, chicken, steak, it gets me more bulk. It helps me get
Speaker A
the vitamins and nutrient minerals I need. And I know what you might say. Hey, what about the B12 vitamin? That's good. I feel like you talk about B12 so much. You sound like my sister trying to convince me that her friend's so great.
Speaker A
Like, oh, you got to try B12. She's great. B12 is good. Well, B12 is good. You should hang out with your your sister's friend. That seems like a good idea. Yes, my protein.
Speaker A
May I finish this first? Yeah, of course. If I do Yeah. Let's say I strictly strictly do the B12 vitamins. Oh, yeah.
Speaker A
I get the minerals I need. What are you going to do about the calories? Because, you know, you get rid of the mineral the meats and you you cut out that calorie, but you also cut out a lot of the
Speaker A
the calories that you need to survive. Because if we become too malnutrition and neuro division, we will die. Because I recently discovered, but again, I I gave I gave the studies a bunch of times. The overall health outcomes are what matters. So when
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you've got you're less likely to die on veganism because of health concerns than you are on eating meat.
Speaker A
You're less likely to I just let you finish and I'll be brief. I'll make sure you've got time. I'm aware that you haven't got much. Um you're less likely to develop cancer. You're less likely to have the heart disease. You're less
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likely to have diabetes, be obese. Yes. Can you replace those things in terms of you want calories you want to bulk up?
Speaker A
Yeah. Like in protein, you mentioned Satan has 80 to 100% more protein per calorie than than a sirloin steak.
Speaker A
That's significant. Tofu more than eggs, soy milk over whole milk and semi-kinned milk. All right, let me ask you. So you obviously we want to not die obviously.
Speaker A
So have you heard of I'm going to mess up her name. I'm going to butcher it.
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Jahana Somo Sonova. She is she was a Russian vegan influencer that died at the age of 39.
Speaker A
And what did she die of? You haven't got long. Her own family members say that she died of malnourishment and low energy. She did not have enough calories to sustain her body. And because of that, she died before she was the age of 50.
Speaker A
So one person versus the 600,000. But that's a good example like you if we try anecdotes aren't the same as 600 one person. Yeah. You're going to have anomalies, right? I met somebody earlier who said they can't survive and not eat
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meat. Yeah. Right. So So yeah, I'm not denying that. I think that the number is so slim though.
Speaker A
It's very impossible to become full vegan. There is nothing. There is nothing really. It's not impossible to be What are you wearing by chance? Are you wearing Doc Martens by chance?
Speaker A
Yeah. Aren't those Are those vegan? Yeah. Are you sure about that? Yeah, they're made of rubber.
Speaker A
And rubber is made of rubber is not made of animals. But there's a lot of vegan product.
Speaker A
There's a lot of animal products in things that you don't You think I'll turn up to one vegan versus 20 mete wearing leather shoes?
Speaker A
Maybe you think you think I'm I mean a lot of people don't know a lot of stuff's in there.
Speaker A
Oh my days, man. It crossed my mind, too. It crossed my mind too. Thank you.
Speaker A
He crossed his mind, too. I rest my case and my time is up. Great meeting you.
Speaker A
Pick up some vegan. Thank you. All right, that's the end of our claim portion from Dr. Jack. Snaps to you.
Speaker A
Great job. Uh I'm going to ask you to look around the circle and choose somebody who you want to bring back to the center for one more debate. I'm going to pick my guy in the red shirt.
Speaker A
And what's your reasoning? We started having an interesting conversation earlier. We didn't really get into it. So, yeah, interested to hear more. Hear what your claim is.
Speaker A
All right. How's it going? U my surrounded claim is that uh going completely vegan is uh for the entire world at once is impossible.
Speaker A
I would not reject that claim. I think going all at once to veganism would be it's an absolute claim.
Speaker A
Is it wouldn't be possible. I do. What's your reason for it? I do want to have a conversation uh with you about something. Um I when I make uh food for my vegetarian friends and cook dinner for them,
Speaker A
it feels more expensive for me to go to Ralph's or Trader Joe's and buy, you know, a fancy dinner for them, uh fancy groceries for them compared to when I would make food for my uh meateers friends. And I knew you have
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great stats to support it. And I'm often left with just making chana masala or something and I don't want to serve them vitamin B12 on a plate or you know a protein shake on the side.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. And uh yeah, I just wanted to have a conversation about that. Yeah. I feel I think one of the most common objections to the vegan is that you know it's some some left woke person who has excess money has the time to sit
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around thinking about moral philosophy and then makes the change to go vegan. Whereas other people don't have the privilege. They're trying to put food on the table. uh they don't have the time or even the resources to go out and buy
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vegan food and therefore it's a privileged position. Um I don't think that's true. Uh I think we've got lots of intuitions. Give you an example. Um how many animals of each kind did Moses take on the ark?
Speaker A
I'm not Christian so I'm not aware. How many on how many on the ark? You should know.
Speaker A
I do not know. You don't know how many on the ark? Anyone know? 40.
Speaker A
Not two. John, why? Two of each. No, I said Moses in the question, not Noah. Right. Sorry.
Speaker A
So sorry. you why would you you didn't even need to fall for like gotcha I don't know what you're doing over there um the the point is that like our intuitions about things like that immediately we think too but if we slow
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down we think about these things we do the research then we'll find that actually it's again this University of Oxford study found it's 30% cheaper to go vegan and that the people in third world countries such as Ethiopia and
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Sudan the wor the people who are worse off across the world they're more likely to be uh to be eating meat um so so I take that to be true when it comes to cooking for your friends you know
Speaker A
I've only been a vegetarian, vegan since I was 21. You know, 12 good years. And before it would just be beef burgers and chips and a bit of veg on the side. Very common dish for a lot of people, right?
Speaker A
Not very healthy, but Yeah. And since I've went uh vegan, you know, I've started enjoying loads of different foods, Indian curries, Mexican spicy food.
Speaker A
Um and it sort of opens up a new world. Yeah. Yeah. I think um I I definitely agree with all your points about being, you know, going vegan and like a lot of people should aim to be vegan and which
Speaker A
is which you think you could go vegan? I and this is as a man uh of like my word I know that it will be very difficult and I think I won't be completely able to go um go completely vegan because I I do
Speaker A
and I know there are moral obligations to it but I do enjoy the taste of you know eating chicken or would you consider just trying a plant-based alternative instead because again I cite that study earlier 175 people I think that's so interesting
Speaker A
when you give people a blind taste test right and it tastes pretty similar yes and that that has happened to me as well. But to me, it feels way easier to, you know, run to the grocery store down
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the street and get a a thing of chicken breast and cook it and eat it for the night.
Speaker A
You feel the moral obligation. You you want in theory to go vegan, but it's merely just your habit.
Speaker A
I do not uh want to go vegan, but I do want to take certain steps. And I think there's a middle ground that um you know, cuz we both have the same interest to the moral argument, right? You said
Speaker A
you feel like there's a moral obligation, right? Obligation means you ought to do it, so you should do it.
Speaker A
Well, moral um maybe that's a that's a wrong term that I use, but I think it's a I do feel morally, you know, weird about eat because I if I wouldn't kill an animal, why would I let someone else
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kill an elephant and eat animal and eat it right? Yeah, for sure. But even I mean, I wouldn't say it was much better if you went out and killed it yourself, right? Um but I think you and I both
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want somewhat similar to, you know, go and preserve that the animals are protected and well taken care of and not killed in industrial farming and being the killing more generally as well. Another another myth is that you're having humane slaughters. There's
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no such thing as a humane slaughter. Yes. But I think and this is a thing that uh the country of India practices a lot. Um and I don't see this could be a middle practice what this uh Hinduism and the country of
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India practices Janism right we practice a thing of uh not eating meat uh on Tuesdays which you know I I I think it's just a it's just a step forward in the direction of but as you know the Hindu tradition the
Speaker A
Buddhist tradition the seek tradition um the traditionally vegetarian yeah they should practice the principle of a himza non-suffering it their reincarnation depends on it and the same is true I think of the the Jewish and the Muslim traditions as well. The
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Muslim tradition in the hadith 2365, you've got an example of a woman who is condemned to hell according to Muslim teachings. She's condemned to hell for putting a cat in a cage so small the cat can't move in and not feeding it
Speaker A
properly. Yet the overwhelming amount of produce that Muslims are eating under the label of halal is factory farms and so is the kosher meat as well. So it seems like the Abrahamic salvation is dependent on it. the the Hindu, the
Speaker A
Buddhists, and this is right back to the start of the conversation. All of their their reincarnations are dependent on it too and I totally agree with you. You have a religious belief yourself. You say I I am uh very similar to you in
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terms of religion. I'm uh pantheistic uh pantheist. Um but yes I I do believe that you know um if you are making someone suffer the karma is going to catch you back and you know um but it seems like you agree with the
Speaker A
moral obligation though and it doesn't seem like just because of you do and but just because of the habit it doesn't seem to be going moral obligation is the wrong word but yes and it see it seems to me like the
Speaker A
reason is habit would you say that's fair I don't think it's habit because I I did in fact turn vegetarian what is the reason it can't just be what you're cooking for people I I think the how easy it is for me to
Speaker A
uh consume meat and how how easy it is for me, you know, go to a restaurant and there are two options for vegan or three and 10 options for me to enjoy a nice dinner, right? And you agree that ease doesn't override the
Speaker A
moral law or though, right? Uh say that again, please. The ease of it doesn't override the moral. It's easy to have slaves, right?
Speaker A
But we shouldn't have slaves. We shouldn't talk about that. I think it's a different different kinds of topic. I mean, no, it's an analogy. I can change the analogy if it makes you feel, you know, if you want to avoid that completely.
Speaker A
Um, it's easy to, I don't know, uh, for if you're very rich, it's easy to fly a private jet wherever you go, right? But you think you have a moral obligation towards the environment more generally, not to use private jets all the time.
Speaker A
I don't understand the analogy. Um, it's just easy to eat meat. It doesn't justify the harm inflicted on that. That is totally fair. It doesn't justify. Yes.
Speaker A
Like it's picking up a Beyond Meat burger rather than the beef burger. It's not really It's not really ease. It takes a second. I do think that there needs to be a middle ground where you know um the meateers and the vegans or
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vegetarian choice uh uh people meet because I can't just snap a finger and say okay we are stopping all the uh farming uh industrial farming in terms of animals. Um so I think there needs to be like a step it could be a step based
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process. You can take that step right now. Yes I I I could I do in fact intend after this uh if you know thing to maybe not eat meat one day a week or why not more though? because that is
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still three meals a three meals a day that I'm not eating meat, you know, and and I do intend when I do cook for other people, I do eat veget, you know, I I I love getting in pub rules, but I only
Speaker A
beat people up on Fridays, Saturdays, and Sundays. I I don't I disagree with that, but then then go the whole way. Just end just say you'll try it. You'll try going vegan.
Speaker A
I know I won't succeed in that cuz I have tried it. I'm not asking you to do I'm asking you to try. I said everyone should aim to be vegan. That was one of my I as a person I I know myself and I
Speaker A
don't think I would be able to do it because I have tried it before.
Speaker A
Dude, it's it's it baffles me that people sort of go like hey like it's so difficult to do like it's so it's not just about being difficult but I I do depend on I do depend on my do I could just do it.
Speaker A
I do depend on my protein and my and my vitamins and a lot of things on me.
Speaker A
Just say you'll try and you'll do it. You'll give it your best. I Let's end on that. Just say that you'll you'll give it your best. If you fail, you fail. But you should try.
Speaker A
I don't think. Come on, give it a try. I'll buy you your first vegan burger.
Speaker A
I will shake your hand for a vegan burger. Nice, but I'm not going to go.
Speaker A
I'm not going to go vegan, but I don't want to leave you hanging. Come on. You can't leave me hanging.
Speaker A
You'll try to go vegan. I just don't want to say that I'll turn vegan in front of you and then not do it cuz I'm not a hypocrit.
Speaker A
I'm not asking you to turn vegan. I'm asking you to try. I I have tried in the past and I am I'm promising you that I will be trying to reduce.
Speaker A
This is like a living conversation. But you you accept all of the reasons and you think that you should do it.
Speaker A
Dr. Jack, I will I promise you that I will try to limit the amount of meat I eat, but I can't promise you that I will be vegan, right? Like right away.
Speaker A
Try for a week. Meet me a week. Me a week. I don't think I would be able to do that. Try me. Try me a week.
Speaker A
I don't think I would be able to do that. I apologize. I'm a weaker man than you, but I won't be able to do that.
Speaker A
Disappointed me, dude. Hey, it's lovely to speak to you, though. Thank you. Nice to speak to you. Appreciate it.
Speaker A
All right. Uh, I think on the whole like everyone's sort of like an animal lover anyway, just like vegans take it a bit further.
Speaker A
So, everyone feels like the pull of it. There's probably three or four people who are thought, you know, might be tempted to at least reduce, if not go vegan.
Speaker A
I'm going to eat twice as many meat just on the off chance that that one guy at the end does go vegan one day a week.
Speaker A
I'm going to offset it. I'm a big proponent of doing whatever feels right for you. So, if they decided to become vegan after this, I guess if they feel like it's right for them, I think when you actually see somebody
Speaker A
living a carnivore lifestyle, you might be more inclined to check it out because it's just more real. It's relatable.
Speaker A
Numbers and stats aren't relatable. I don't think he was very relatable to most people. He's very numbers doctor.
Speaker A
You know, how many people live like that? If you decided to become vegan after watching this video, let us know in the comments. If you are a vegan and you converted back to being a carnivore, also let us know. That would be kind of
Speaker A
strange. Uh, thanks for watching.
Topics:veganismethical eatingfactory farminganimal sufferingplant-based dietglobal hungerutilitarianismhealth benefitsphilosophyJubilee Surrounded
