Science & Spirituality Finally Merge to Explain a New T… — Transcript

I had been pretending to be happy for a number of years, but I was not paying attention to my inner life. I woke up around midnight. Incredible was coming out of my chest, and it was white scintillating light, and it was love but also peace and joy. The peace I have never felt before. And my consciousness is everywhere. That consciousness was not just in my body. We are a field. We are not the body. I am a part whole of one. Only quantum physics could explain what happened. Physicist Federico Faggin invented silicon gate technology and the microprocessor, the foundational breakthrough now powering all modern technology. His remarkable and spontaneous spiritual experience revealed the true nature of reality and changed how quantum science is explaining consciousness and how the world really works. There is no longer a boundary between science and spirituality. Who I am was not at all what I thought I was. I thought that I was separate from the world. I was studying nuclear science, biology, trying to understand how things work. I realized that books were talking about electrical biochemical signals in the brain as if that was our conscious experience. That doesn't make any sense. For me to know myself, I need to know the others like myself. That's what cooperation is. And what is that allows us to cooperate? Love. Love is the taste of meaning. The next evolution in medicine would be for all of us to have a better collective understanding of this oneness and the deeper reality that consciousness and free will are providing. So that even medicine could be affected by the ways that we approach the cellular systems. That was the problem that no scientist had actually solved. Hi, I'm Balik, and I'm Jonathan Cohen, and welcome to our breakdown. We've talked a lot about reality here, and maybe reality is more than we can see. But today we have the opportunity to speak to one of the greatest technologically savvy, intellectually rigorous physicists who has changed the way we literally live our lives. Meaning he created silicon gate technology in 1968. That's what underlies all of modern computing. Why would we speak to this man about consciousness and reality? Because he had a remarkable spontaneous spiritual experience which allowed him to combine everything he knew about physics, neuroscience, biology, and computers to construct a theory of everything that explains literally not everything you experience, not everything you think you know, everything that subserves everything that we experience. Federico Faggin is an Italian physicist turned inventor. His latest book, Irreducible Consciousness, Life, Computers, and Human Nature, is a fantastic journey about the oneness and the totality of our existence, as well as the significance of consciousness and free will as fundamental components not just of our existence, but the existence of the universe. This is a fascinating conversation. We touch on health, our internal experience, the idea that we create our reality and how to shift it, the nature of happiness and what will actually bring us happiness, as well as how the world can possibly change by better understanding that we were all interconnected and a part of the whole. And if you're watching this episode and you think there might be something wrong with your screen because you see smoke coming out of our ears, that's just our brains working really hard to grasp and understand this conversation and the implications it has for how we view reality and how we go about loving each other and loving ourselves and how the role of love actually can change the entire world. Without further ado, we welcome from Italy, Federico Faggin to the Breakdown. Break it down. I wonder if you can tell us what is your mission. What do you think your purpose is before we get into how you got here? Obviously, my purpose is to do what I came here to do. And so then the next question is what did I do? I think what I'm doing right now, I think, is my purpose. You know, to have lived many lives in one life and to have reached a level of understanding that, without the—I'm speaking about my fourth life now—without the other three lives I could never have achieved, and the other three lives were quite full. My second life, my first life, of course, born, raised, you know, and educated and first work experiences in Italy. Then I went to the US. My second life was as an inventor, both technology and products, and then managing the R&D of Intel at one point and then decided to be an entrepreneur. So I started my own company, started several companies, and that developed different aspects of me. After having done all of that, I was unhappy. And so I didn't understand why. Why should I be unhappy when I have achieved everything that I could possibly imagine to be happy, and I had all the reasons to be happy? And then I had an extraordinary experience of consciousness because I wanted to understand, and that changed my life. And so I'm on my fourth life after this extraordinary experience, and I'm really now I know that I came here to do that, and I needed all the other lives in order to do that. So many people look for happiness in things and in titles and in accolades and in careers. What do you think was necessary about that journey? Do we all need to struggle? Like, does everyone have their own personal struggle, and at the end there's a spiritual awakening waiting? I don't know if that is for everybody, but certainly for me it was. I had to go through many struggles, but also I enjoyed every part of my life, so it wasn't like, "Oh my God, how am I going to do now?" No, I've always followed my passion. But I was expecting, though, that after having achieved all of what I've achieved—beautiful family, everybody healthy, a beautiful career, famous, enough money that I didn't need to work, you know, all that kind of stuff that normally live in a beautiful place like Silicon Valley and on it goes, right? I wasn't happy, and I didn't know why. And of course, now I can tell you because I was believing outside of me and not paying attention to my inner life, and I had completely neglected my interiority. But it took a while. Then I had to go through some struggles to actually figure out what was going on. And after 20 years of work, I realized that I actually ended living many of the traumas when I grew up and so on. So those were out of the way. And I achieved a high level of tranquility, if you want. Just my mind is not busy. My mind is perfectly fine, and I don't have all these jumbles and stuff that goes on all the time that I had before. I was restless before. I didn't know that I was restless because I thought that I was doing the right thing. But now I can tell you I never was where I was. I was always somewhere else in my mind. I was, you know, my project, what I was going to do two weeks from now, tomorrow, a year from now, and on it goes, right? So now I'm just living my life, and I'm living day to day as it happens. But I know that I am living exactly what I need to live, and that changed completely my interiority. It is very tranquil, serene. A lot of the focus of our podcast and our interest is the intersection of science and spirituality. And one of the reasons we're so eager to talk to you is because your brain, right, is holding so much of what many would deem the materialist side, right? You have the ability to be rational. You're an inventor. I mean, you've changed the world with the technology that you created. And also you have access to a completely other side that many people consider unable to be reconciled with this scientific rational side. I wonder if you can talk us through what the actu—

love but also peace and joy. The peace I [music] have never felt before. And my consciousness is everywhere. That conscious was not just in my body. We are a field. We are not the body. I am a part [music] whole of one. Only quantum

physics could explain what happened. Physicist Fedrico Fine invented silicon gate technology and the microprocessor, the foundational breakthrough now powering all modern technology. [music] His remarkable and spontaneous spiritual experience revealed the true nature of reality and changed how quantum science

is explaining consciousness and how the world really works. There is no longer a boundary between science and spirituality. Who I am was not at all what I thought I was. I thought that I was separate from the world. I was

studying nuclear science, biology, trying to understand how things [music] work. I realized that books were talking about electrical biochemical signals in the brain [music] as if that was our conscious experience.

That doesn't make any sense. For me to know myself, I need to know the others like myself. That's what cooperation is.

And what is that allows us to cooperate? Love. Love is the taste of meaning.

The next evolution in [music] medicine would be for all of us to have a better collective understanding of this oneness and the deeper reality that consciousness and free [music] will are providing. So that even medicine could be affected by the ways that we approach

the cellular systems. That was the problem that no scientist had actually solved. [music] Hi, I'm Balik and I'm Jonathan Cohen and welcome to our breakdown. We've talked a lot about reality here and maybe reality is more than we can see.

But today we have the opportunity to speak to one of the greatest technologically savvy, intellectually rigorous physicists who has changed the way we literally live our lives. Meaning he created silicon gate technology in 1968. That's what underlies all of

modern computing. Why would we speak to this man about consciousness and reality? because he had a remarkable spontaneous spiritual experience which allowed him to combine everything he knew about physics, neuroscience, biology, and computers to construct a theory of everything that explains

literally not everything you experience, not everything you think you know, everything that subserves everything that we experience. Fedrico Fagine is an Italian physicist turned inventor. His latest book, Irreducible Consciousness, Life, Computers, and Human Nature, is a fantastic journey about the oneness and

the totality of our existence, as well as the significance of consciousness and free will as fundamental components not just of our existence, but the existence of the universe.

This is a fascinating conversation. We touch on health, uh, our internal experience, the idea that we create our reality and how to shift it, the nature of happiness and what will actually bring us happiness, as well as how the

world can possibly change by better understanding that we were all interconnected and a part of the whole.

And if you're watching this episode and you think there might be something wrong with your screen because you see smoke coming out of our ears, that's just our brains working really hard to grasp and understand this conversation and the

implications it has for how we view reality and how we go about loving each other and loving ourselves and how the role of love actually can change the entire world. Without further ado, we welcome from Italy, Fedrico Fine to the

Breakdown. Break it [singing and music] down. I wonder if you can tell us what is your mission. What do you think your purpose is before we get into how you got here?

Obviously, my purpose is to do what I came here to do. [laughter] And so then the the next question is what did I do? I think what I'm doing right now, I think, is my purpose. you know to have lived many lives in one

life and uh to have reached a level of understanding that uh without the I'm I'm I'm speaking about my fourth life now without the other three lives I could never have achieved and the other three lives were quite full [snorts] my

second life my first life of course born raised you know and educated and first work experiences in Italy Then I went to the US. My second life was as an inventor both technology and products and then managing uh the R&D of Intel at

one point and then decided to be an entrepreneur. So I started my own company, started several companies and uh uh that developed different aspects of me. After having done all of that, I was unhappy. And so I didn't understand

why why should I be unhappy when I have achieved everything that I could possibly imagine to be happy and I had all the reasons to be happy and uh then I had an extraordinary experience of consciousness because I wanted to

understand and that changed my life and so I'm on my fourth life after this extraordinary experience and uh I'm really now I know that I came here to do that and I needed all the other lives in order to do that.

So many people look for happiness in things and in titles and in accolades and in careers. Uh what what do you think was necessary about that journey?

Do we all need to struggle? Like does everyone have their own personal struggle and at the end there's a spiritual awakening waiting? I don't know uh if that is for everybody but certainly for me it was I had to go

through uh many struggles but also I enjoyed every part of my life so it was it wasn't like oh my god you know how how what am I going to do to do now no I I've always followed my passion uh but I

was expecting though that after having achieved all all of what I've achieved you know beautiful family everybody healthy you know, a beautiful career, famous, enough money that I didn't need to work, you know, all that kind of stuff that

normally live in a beautiful place like Silicon Valley and on it goes, right? I wasn't happy and I didn't know why. And of course, now I can tell you because I didn't I was believing outside of me and not paying attention to my inner

life and I had completely neglected my interiority. But it took a while. Then then I had to go through some struggles to actually figure out what was going on. And uh after 20 years of work, I realized that I actually ended living

many of the traumas when I grew up and so on. So that uh those were out of the way. And uh I I achieve a a high level of you know tranquility if you want just my mind is is not busy. My mind is uh

you know it's perfectly fine and I don't I don't have all these jumbles and stuff that goes on all the time that I had before. Uh I was restless before. I didn't know that I was restless but because I thought that I was doing the

right thing. But now I can tell you I was I never was where I was. I was always somewhere else in my mind. I was, you know, my project what I was going to do, you know, two weeks from now,

tomorrow, a year from now and on it goes, right? So, and now I'm I'm just uh I'm living my life and I'm living day to day as as it happens. And but I know that I am I am living exactly what I need to live

and that change completely my my inner my interiority is very tranquil serene. A lot of the focus of our podcast and our interest is the intersection of science and spirituality. And one of the reasons we're so eager to talk to you is

because your brain, right, has is holding so much of what many would deem the materialist side, right? You have the ability to be rational. You're an inventor. I mean, you've changed the world with the technology that you created. And also you have access to a

completely other side that many people consider unable to be reconciled with this scientific rational side. I I wonder if you can talk us through what the actual spiritual experience was that you had and how your rational mind came

to understand what was transforming inside of you. I had several many in fact uh transformative experiences but the first one was the most important because it revealed that uh who I am was not at all what I thought I was. I was I

thought I was separate from the world and I lived as a separate individual. uh even if I love many people obviously my my wife my children but still I'm separate I don't know if it was end of December or early January but it was in

the Christmas holidays of 1990 and it was after I had realized that I had been pretending to be happy for a number of years uh but I wasn't happy and I was studying neuroscience at that time I was doing developing neuronet

networks my company uh was in that business starting 1986. So I was studying neuros neuroscience biology. I was trying to understand how things work and I realized that uh those books were talking about uh electrical signals, biochemical signals in the brain as if

that was our experience. They were describing in in essence our conscious experience by electrical signals and biochemical signal. And so wait a second that doesn't make any sense. Yeah. Yes, there is something going on in the brain and clearly has to

be connected with our experience. But how can electrical signals in the brain be the taste of food or the smell of you know flowers or you know the touch that I have when I touch something that goes you know that that is a transformation

has to go from there to the feeling side because I understand not by seeing electrical signal I understand by the sensations and feelings that are that you know equalia that David Chmer's as probably know you know later on seven

years later wrote a book uh you know you know the you know on consciousness he realized that that was the problem that no scientist had actually solved and so I actually discovered that on my own uh at that time because I was trying to

understand what's going on to understand how to to make better computers that learn and so on so forth but I also realized that that was my problem my inner problem was about that you know that I realized that consciousness must

exist somehow but I didn't know what it was and and conscious was also what made me suffer and I didn't know that or so I I had two good reasons to find out personal reason and of course in

intellectual reason because I wanted to understand as a physicist I'm I'm always trying to figure out things um and it was in that climate that one night I I woke up around midnight I I I was thirsty. I went to get a glass of water,

went back to bed, and while I was trying to get back to sleep, uh, a a beam of light, it was a, you know, energy, incredible energy was coming out of my chest and it was white scintillating light and it was love. It was me because

my consciousness was in this energy. I was also this thing that was coming out of me. How is that possible? Then this thing expands or blows up covers all the space this white light everywhere and my consciousness is everywhere. So now I'm

observing myself outside of myself because I realize that I am that consciousness but that consciousness was not just in my body was also outside of me. I want to hit pause here because most of us do not go about our lives and all of a

sudden have a beam of light explode from the center of our chest and ex like go into the universe. It's not something normal that we experience.

It's not normal. Of course, right? You were not drunk. You were not sleeping. I didn't drink more than a glass of water that [laughter] that night. Everything was fine. I I was in my best uh form. I was skiing all

days. So I was uh physically very very active as well. I mean it's you know this is completely incomprehensible from any points of view. I never had any anything like that. I couldn't not even have imagine possible.

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Please support our show. Tell them we sent you." Besides [music] the feeling of love, were you able to kind of step outside of the experience and say, "What is going on?" Or were you so immersed in the experience that you didn't have that

perspective? I was the experience. While the experience was going on, I was the experience clearly, right? While this was going on this light was everywhere scintillating a thought forms in my mind and the thought is wow this is this

stuff of which everything is made and by that those were mental words but before the mental words there was a thought and for the first time there was a thought that was before it became words this I realized later but when I was doing It

it was like I was stunned because there was a thought and then there were words you know where normally I before I was always thinking in words. So the you know there were never thoughts that were without words

and in fact it was only only with a lot of work that I did later that I could that I could separate the thought before is verbalized is raifi in our in our mind it is which is how it must be in

consciousness before it is transformed into words mental words and then the thought that we normally think is the thought which is already mental. It took me years to to actually you know meditation so on and then realizing what

what I was doing. So and now moving back many years forward but but back at this point I realized that there was a distinction there was a distinction between this flash of inside and then the words I say

this is what everything is made of also at that time my the feeling with that energy was not only love but also peace and joy they were mixed they were not separable But the peace I have never never felt before. Peace was a new a new

idea for me. Peace was I am that my restlessness was no longer there in that experience.

You know I because my restlessness was the fact that I was never where I was.

But now in this experience I am that this stuff is me because my my my self the sense of self my consciousness was out there. So I was both the observer and the observed. That's another complete change of perspective. As I was

telling you before I I thought that I was separate from the world. Now these experiences I am the world observing myself. big change of perspective. I am a part whole of one.

I I have because I have the same character of one. I have the same potentiality of one. But I'm I'm also a part of one. Just like a cell in our body is a part all of the body because

it has the genome of the entire body. Every cell contains the genome of the whole organism of one of the one organism. This case we are we are a part of the universe which you know we are a

field we are not the body. So clearly you know the idea that I am before my consciousness the sense of myself was only in my head. I was not even in my body. It was in my head. And now with

this experience is everywhere. Not only in my body, but also outside of my body.

I mean that's a that's a change like this to this, right? Complete reversal of perspective that I had before. And uh the other thing is that my body was vibrating you know and it was hot. So so every

aspect of me was in the was living this experience. This was a lived experience.

It was is a lived way to know is you you know because you experience all those things I can say now but they were implicit in that experience but it took years to unroll in a way that experience

which probably lasted a minute maybe two but no more. So this was a just like a you know unbelievable flash but it changed my life because [clears throat] he told me that what I thought I was was not what I was because

the the sense of truth of that experience was so strong that I could not compare to anything that had happened in my life before that was as true as powerful consciousness is the one that allows you to know that is it is this Is is this an

imagination? Is this a you know a uh fantasy or you know conscious can actually tell you if that is true or not or close to the truth than than any other thing. All of us have one day or

another had a dream that was so vivid that you thought you you were the dream right you and you were you truly existed in that dream. I had many dreams before of that with that nature but even more

later after this experience but uh you know where basically you wake up and for a second you thought you were actually you know this reality is it was a dream not the other one but this one was even stronger than that

and that's why it had the power to transform it transformed my life otherwise how could he have the power to transform my life I would have doubted my own, you know, my own experience, right? I would have said, well, maybe I

better I better I better go see a psychiatrist here. See what he tells me, right? So, he tells me what I feel.

Well, you know, we should be able to know what we feel ourselves. There's a few points here in your story that stand out for me. One is we hear a lot of people who have a drastic spiritual awakening which is it sounds

like this was for you where they question it right they wonder am I going crazy am I making it up what did I feel or not and the difference between an imagination and a fully embodied experience is the vibrating of the body

the fact that it was fully immersive and that you are not just imagining something in a waking state or an imaginative state. You're not daydreaming. You're having a full visceral experience that is exceptionally powerful. Everything was going with it. You know, it was there

was a unity in the experience. A unity in the experience. I am inside, outside and body, mind and spirit. The other thing that's fascinating and describes a lot of what is common in a way when you have a spiritual experience is realizing

that thoughts exist before we're able to translate them. That information and ideas exist in this collective field that we're going to get into. And we want the scientific explanation of how you think that exists. But that the universe, the world that we live in is

made up of all of this information. And simply our brains are the interpreters and the translators of that information into a language so that things can for lack of a better word exist all around us and yet they just can appear and we

have to figure out what does that mean? How do we communicate them? How do we translate that into something that's sharable?

Yeah. Well, in the way I say it these days is that meaning comes first. In other words, meaning comes before symbols.

The symbols are invented in order to carry meaning. But if there is no meaning, there shouldn't be any symbols because the meaning comes first. Come and before symbols. In science, symbols have no meaning.

The information is only the probability the symbols appear or not. That's it. Has no meaning to the symbols. That's it. You know now I can say it clearly at that time it was you know it was it was

inherent in the experience but you know to unpack that experience it took me years right but also also years to get to the source of understanding.

Now my theory actually can explain what happened. But before it was this is the opposite of what scientism has been telling me.

Not science with a capital S, but scientism, the ideas that we have about the world.

What was it like for you after that minute, the next day remembering that you had this experience? Were you able to go back to that state or was it something like a reminder that wait, was it something in your in your memory that

you were like, "Wait a second, that existed so like I have to unpack it and understand it." How did it change your life in like the day the week after?

Basically, it was very clear that there was a message from a deeper part of reality which I couldn't couldn't know but that that message had to be followed. I I it was very clear that and it was some was a personal message

almost nia would say my high self opening up the kimono and saying look man this is what's real then you know figure it out so you were set out on a journey in that moment afterwards absolutely I was set out on a journey

they started immediately you know within days I mean after I came back and you know obviously you know I was running a company so on but I the it was probably two weeks before later on that I found a

person to go and be begin the process and that that was the you know process that lasted about 20 years that allow me to arrive at the conclusion that consciousnesses and free will must go hand in hand and they must be

fundamental they cannot be explained in any other ways when I got to that point I said Now my next step is to join science and spirituality figure out a way to combine because it was clear that only quantum physics could explain if

any what what happened but now actually you know I have arrived to the point where I said we have to start there and the fact that we are conscious and have free will can explain why the world has

to manifest itself as quantum physics you see the is a complete reversal again the for many years I was trying to explain conscious and free will quantum physics as this quantum physics was more fundamental than conscious and free will

now say no conscience and free will are the fundamental ontology and quantum physics is the way the manifestation of that ontology that then begets certain mathematical property properties which are really maps of a territory. But the territory is

consciousness and free will. These fields that have this property, they communicate with each other. Entities, but they're not entities in space and time. They're entities in a deeper reality that control bodies which are in what we collectively call spaceime,

which is a constructure that we made because we have similar bodies, similar ways of thinking, similar culture and so on. But but the deeper reality is a reality that has entities that want to know themselves. And through those

entities knowing themselves, one the totality of what exists knows itself. Well, yeah. And and in in irreducible, you kind of take us through all of these paths.

Yes. But the new book actually goes the next step which is because that book still wanted to explain consciousness and free will with mathematics with quantum physics and then it was only writing my third book that I realized one day I said oh I'm

stupid yeah this is yeah I to you know I to turn it around we have to I cannot explain conscious and you know we have to start there that's ontology And then the the math is which is quantum physics is really math. The the

only ontology of quantum physics is the quantum fields are ontological. That's it. And you start there with quantum physics. You start with the quantum fields and the ontology is there but that ontology does not contain consciousnesses and free will. So so you

only describe the outer aspect of beyond. This level of depth though I think is one that we want to spend a little bit of time in. So consciousness you say is the ability to experience qualia right to experience the the qualities of the

things that we kind of identify and experience and to know the meaning of the experience.

That's exactly right. That's the deeper thing of qualia. Qualia are just just like symbols are bringers of experience.

Qualia qualia are the bringers of meaning of the experience and that's a deeper aspect. So there's things that we experience, then there's the meaning that we draw from them. But what we're now talking about is what does it mean

to say that the universe was alive and conscious from its outset? Because this is something that you talk about that consciousness is a quantum property of a field and not the property of the states of the field. Can you explain kind of

how this works into our understanding of the difference between meaning and sort of a larger oneness of meaning?

First of all, there is one, right? One is the totality of what exists and one uh described by quantum physics as two fundamental properties is dynamic meaning is never the same, keeps on changing, never the same but we all

experience that. And second is holistic. That took a that took a while because ism comes from a property called entanglement that exists only in quantum physics. Particles when particles interact they they get into common joint states that information that is created

in that interaction independent of distance afterwards. And that is you know nobody can explain how that can happen.

But what it means is that everything is interconnected. The universe is not made of separable parts. Not only that, but the particles what we imagine we have imagined as little ball.

You know you when you measure them, you measure in one point you think is a point particle. They are states of fields. They're not separable from the field. They're states of the field like waves of a sea. The wave of the sea are

states of the sea. But if we don't see the sea, we only see the wave. We think that the wave is separate from the sea.

That's a little bit to understand what you know what what we thought about an electron. An electron is a wave in the sea which is the field of electrons.

Only when it is an excited state of the field because it can exist that electron can exist as an nonexited state of the field and it still exists but we don't is inside is inside the water. We don't

know we cannot we cannot tell anything about it. [music] Lion Alex breakdown is supported by Symbiotica.

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[music] The reality is just not even close to the reality that is revealed to us in in the physical you know space and time where there are microscopic objects and the microscopic object are separate from each other and so and also the the world

of computers. the world on the computer the the bit of the computer is separate from the other bit. There is nothing the bits don't have anything in common with the other bits.

Okay. So we create numbers with those bits but those each bit is independent and has to have only two states zero or one. So we use physics to create this logical thing that we have invented because we have invented the bits. The

bits are not in the computer. You open up the computer and say do you see bits moving around and there are no bits moving around. There are signals moving around but those signals are structured in such a way that they carry

distinguishable states that you then can use to do whatever we do with the computers. But those states are not the same states like this like an electron is to the field. Those bits are our creation that is imposed on matter and

it works until matter is deterministic behaves with in predictable ways. If you raise the temperature of the computer too much the computer stops working because the that distinction that we have put into matter can no longer be you know can no longer be maintained. So

is an our construction is a construction of consciousness. is not a construction in the computer. The computer doesn't know anything about bits. You you you see the the subtlety here because we we think that reality is made in a certain

way but in fact we are imposing a certain certain type of distinction that we are there are mental distinctions and conscious distinctions that then we attribute to reality. Probabilities for example can only happen if you are conscious because only a

conscious being wants to predict what what will happen in the future especially in a reality like the classical reality which is deterministic. In a deterministic reality there are no probabilities.

There are only certainties. The probability are a lack of knowing about something that if we knew we could we could predict the future and therefore there would be no probability. It would predict exactly what will happen. So probabilities already include quant

include the existence of consciousness in the definition. Quantum physics is all about probabilities. It's not about physical variables. It's all about probability. when you talk about reality and obviously this is a concept you can talk about conceptually but I'd like you

as a physicist to explain to us what you mean when you say reality is not what we think it is and you can go as micro or as macro as you'd like and I think the beauty of what you talk about is that it

includes the micro in the macro and the macro in the micro the the fundamental reality is the reality ity of our inner experience. And yet that inner experience is not separate from the material or the mental aspect. That inner experience is part of

the what we call spirit, the spiritual reality. In reality, there are three aspects of reality which are intertwined. They cannot be separated.

the material which is the body, the the mental which is actually the prediction of what might happen in the future.

That's what actually quantum physics does. It gives you probabilities. But then is this the spiritual nature that has the experience of that reality and also the free will decisions that by knowing the probabilities they pick whatever they want with free

will. So we construct the future by the collective decisions that we that we fields not we bodies we fields make. In other words the deeper reality is the reality of meaning and experience.

That's the deep and free will and the self- knowing that we get out of it and the love the aspect in which all those three aspects are superimposed. They they exist in together. The body is like red. The mind is like you know blue

green green and the and the spirit is like blue right? When they combine together they create white the white light right. So the three together but where you have red and green that superposition is quantum and classical a

type of information which is the one that would describe living systems. A cell works with the principles of quantum physics and classical physics.

Computer works with only the principle of classical physics. That's the body. The center of the body is that type. The center of the quantum reality is actually the quantum state which actually allow you to predict possibilities in the future which then

the spirit decides. And the spirit the the center of the spirit is the meaning of the information where the where the mind and the spirit overlap there is valia the experience and that experience can be described with the quantum state of a field but

that description is not a description of the experience is only is only a a a map. The territory is the experience.

The map is just a quantum quantum state which is a vector in Hilbur space blah blah blah blah blah but that that is a map right and our limitation is that we identif our ego we identify with our

body. So the reality that we have and that we construct the world with is well I see this I touch that this is my job this is my political party this is the color of my skin this is my religion

this is reality this is who I am but what you have said is that that way of thinking and that overidentification of the ego with basically our sensory system right you said that it can lead us to censor the parts of oursel that

actually give us the true reality of what we can perceive from the body, the mind and and the spirit. Is this the seity which is spelled like deity but it has an s.

Yeah. The say the sity is this field with these properties you see. So consciousness cannot be seen as a as an entity. conscious is a property of a sati and sati I use the word sati because because the quantum field which is the the the

quantum aspect of that reality is only a portion of that reality which is the only portion that physics recognize which then is describing quantum states with all the equations and blah blah blah but that portion the has eliminated

the deeper aspects which are which are the you know the the the body and the and most important the spiritual aspect which are the fact that we have experience and the fact that from the experience we get meaning we get self-

knowing the meaning is the essence of the self- knowing one of the most practical applications of your spiritual experience and this really approach to understanding reality is you talk about how The destruction of the environment is one example of us not

being in alignment with how the sum of the parts, right, are bigger than the whole. That the notion of a continuous cooperation as a species is actually consistent. And obviously there's so many the politicization of climate change is a ridiculous conversation that

we don't need to get into, but the notion of what does it mean not just to be in alignment with yourself, which we're very good at in capitalist western societies, but what does it mean to be in alignment with not only those around

us, but with the species as a whole? Can you talk about how this understanding I I mean the I literally quoted this. You said that when our rationality is uniquely informed by the principles of materialism, reductionism and survival

of the fittest, it can only lead to an unbridled competition, racism, and war. So you talk about this kind of competition and racism, war, and the environment as consequences of what happens as a species when we are not

aligned with true reality. Yeah. But because the true reality starts with what is the purpose of one.

Now of course you can say what what who can tell the purpose of one? Of course I cannot tell the purpose of one. But by looking at the deepest aspect of ourselves we can infer that one wants to

do exactly what we want which is to know itself. We want to know who we are. We are here. I mean the deepest aspects of of human beings is we want to understand who we are knowing yourself you know is

in you know temple of Apollo you know in Delelfi you know [laughter] you know is is in in the history of of humanity but even even before you know the vas talk about this same principle.

So I start with that principle. I start one the totality of what exist is dynamic holistic and before I didn't finish and I put one/ird condition on one. One wants to know itself. So the wanting to know itself

the wanting is what then reflects into our will our free will because we also want to know ourselves and but we have to have the will to do that and the capacity to do that. And to to know

itself one must be conscious. So conscious is a necessity of the fundamental principle which I consider a postulate. You know you have to believe it or not but because you cannot prove it but then from there you you can see

that quantum physics emerges naturally from those properties. That's a really important point that so many of us think of quantum physics and all of these like subjects that that not everybody understands as something outside of us when the fact is it's just the attempt

to articulate a deeper reality that the mystics have known for thousands of years. You experienced at midnight outside of Lake Tahoe which no one knows why. But I think that that is the thing that also people who have psychedelic or

transcendental experiences, they describe a very very similar explanation of our purpose here. People who have near-death experiences who leave this realm and have experiences of consciousness that also include 360°ree vision, which isn't even a thing unless you remove your consciousness from the

body that it's in. So the fact that we're seeing all of these things align, you give it such validity because you are a man of science. You are a person who has invented the things that structure the way we understand a

biologically mechanical world. And yet you have this insight to be able to say, guess what? There's something that you can't even see or touch. You can feel it, but not with your senses. It's something deeper that very few will

touch. But our purpose here is to keep looking for it. Science is about knowing, right? So you know why so important science? Because it is you know it is knowing outside what is outside. But but science today has forgotten there is also an

interiority. There is an inside. And in fact scientism erase the inside. There is nothing there. We are only a machine. Right? If we are just a machine, there is only outside. There is nothing inside. That is the fundamental problem. But if you

start with one dynamicist, it wants to know itself. And when one knows itself, it creates a field. It creates what he knows. Because knowing and you know and existing are two word for the same thing.

When one knows itself, it bring into existence what it knows. And so knowing is existence ontology is in the knowing in the meaning in the interiority. That's the point. And then we fields you know then there are fields fields of fields blah

blah blah you know is a complicated world but the point is that for me to know myself I need to know the others like myself.

That's what cooperation is. I cannot know the others like myself if I don't cooperate. And what is that allows us to cooperate? Love. Love. And what is love?

Love is the taste of meaning. Love from the inside is the taste of meaning. The more meaning, the more taste. The 10,000 more powerful love that I ever tasted was the the meaning of me experiencing Tahoe. That was me.

My meaning. Incredible love. That's me. You sound like a dead head. You sound like someone who wants to travel the world just spreading love and good times. [laughter] But the point, but from the outside, what is love from the outside? From the

outside, love is a force. A force that brings into resonance the interiorities of our fields. That's is not classical resonance. is not pendulums that oscillate in synchrony. It is the inner state which is the meaning that meaning becomes the same meaning and it is love

that brings the meaning to be the same in the various fields as a force. What is the equivalent from the seen by the physicist? I don't know. But I suspect possibility gravitational force. Why? Because the gravitational force is the only

universal force and is only attractive is only attractive and it is the smallest force.

But that smallest force can create stars out of which we create the nucleons which cannot be created into in any other way.

You talk about this rationality inspired by heart. You know, you talk about this incredible heart opening and I can't help but think of the ways that we describe love in human terms, right?

That we feel like we're going to like float away and you have to bring yourself back to earth when you're in love, right? You're floating. Your head is in the clouds. And it's so interesting that we're talking about

gravity being this grounding this grounding universal quantum force that is saying there is a a way to come back to a source which I would hold is this this oneness that we're talking about. I also love that you say that quantum

physics actually doesn't describe an outer reality. It's describing the inner reality. And again, most of us would think I'm not a physicist. I don't know what he's talking about. But the fact is we have had to create words and and you

talk about this and this is, you know, what I love about this book before we get to your uh your next book is you take us from literally the beginning of evolution, the evolution of the universe and also the evolution of us.

Where is life? Life for scientism starts with a living cell which nobody knows how it could possibly be made by random variation in selection because there is no selection yet. But never mind that.

But the point is that you start with cells. No, life is the first act of love of one that wants to know itself and creates fields. Those fields are parts whole of one. Those fields are parts whole of one. That feels since one is

holistic. He cannot create part of itself. He must create a totality of itself but with a point of view with a the way which he know he knew itself when he created that field that self- knowing that is the identity that is the

identity of the field and that remains for the for forever in that field. And so what you describe is if you go from however we got that first single-sellled organism, if you go from that like we had to come from somewhere meaning there

was a mother of a mother of a mother, right? You can keep tracing it back and at a certain point your brain starts to bend which is why in certain religious traditions you don't get to study these things unless you have a certain level

of intellectual sophistication because it will make you go crazy. Right? But at some point we got to the humans that we are. But you talk about the evolution of language. What was language? It was the decision by a group of some species to

say we have more to communicate and we need more ways to do it. But it's completely arbitrary. And for those of us who speak more than one language, we know that it's an arbitrary collection of sounds and phonemes and gestures that

we say we're just trying to describe meaning. And ultimately the thing that we have to get to is how do you perpetuate the species, right? And for homo sapiens, we get to insert love into that perpetuation of species. Right.

Yeah. But but you know in this view we created the first selves. We fields created different selves to have an experience collectively in this reality that we are creating. So they they don't come from variations in selection randomness. There is no randomness.

Randomness is only ignorance. That's it. [laughter] Only ignorance. But and also the languages. Why do we need languages?

Because we want to communicate the meaning that we find. But the meaning is endogenous. It comes from within. It doesn't come from without it. It then it creates symbols which are structures outside in in space and time. Those are

structure that we create to manifest the meaning that we have inside. But the creativity is within this in the spiritual part. It's not in the body and not even in the mind. The mind creates the mind does computation about what we

have learned. And so it makes prediction but the predictions are not reality. Predictions are probabilities. The reality is created by our choices as spiritual beings. They choose to go to manifest this thing or or something else. So that is that is very again very

different than the way we imagine things. What we imagine things is that you know there is you know there is there are laws and therefore the laws govern the world but the laws are the byproduct.

The laws are the ex the law simply are saying that there is coherence within one and that coherence requires certain certain laws certain coherences that are reflected to the mathematical laws but the mathematical law don't dictate what has to happen.

Coming from an entrepreneurial background, being in business, business being a winner take all attitude whereby you have to corner markets and get as much market share as possible, get ahead of your competition. Where does love fit in to a notion of a new version of

capitalism? Once we start to accept that cooperation is the only game in town as opposed to competition, we had to rethink everything that we do because we start from from kids we start to compete. We are told to compete. I mean the the

educational even in the family we are sort of you know without even knowing we're sort of set one against the other sometimes right and and and then you know a schools you know business everything is about competition and and

of course competition leads to war and you know god knows how many wars we have lived through you know in our many lives. We basically have to change the entire structure of how we interact with each other. So I I I'm not there yet.

Meaning uh you know I know that that has to to occur. We has to figure out how to do this. But you know before we can do that people have to understand that they're no longer bodies because if they

think that they are bodies automatically you go into the survival of the fittest you know and and and then we have to have an experience that you are not the body you know exactly like I had and everybody can do that the point is that

the difference is that you know you know I don't set myself as a as a special guy that you know you have to you have to believe me. No, no, no, no, no. You know, everyone of everyone has to

experience its own connection with one. Without that experience, we will not believe because the weight of you know our experience that we think that what you know this physical reality is the only reality so powerful that unless you

have a even more powerful experience that tells you that that's not so you're not going to change. You're not going to not giving it a chance. given a chance.

You won't even be able to think about the new paradigm without the embodied experience of realizing there's another way of being.

This is where people see the divide that there are those of us that are going to compete and get ahead and they're going to trample on all of the working class and all those other people and they're going to be having their yachts and all

the other things that rich people do. Um, and then there's the spiritual people who are going to be ridiculed, right, for believing that there's more than just what we see and what we experience. And there's this sort of

divide. Yeah. But also these spiritual people are not, you know, they they they live in their own world. And so they, you know, they, you know, they they're kind of say, well, this stuff is not real.

No, the reality is body, mind, and spirit. Everything has to work together. And so both had to make a move toward joining together. Unfortunately they they stay separate like a two you know like quantum physics and general relativity they don't want to come

together you know in some ways but because everybody wants its own way but no we have to cross that divide we have to merge merge is there I word fuse them there is no longer a boundary between science and spirituality what science

has that spirituality doesn't have much of is rationality and the principles of experiments prove whatever theory you have because physics lives and dies on experiments. If you may have the most beautiful theory but if the theory makes a prediction that

doesn't happen the theory has to be scrapped. So the experiment is more fundamental in in science than the theory. In in in spirituality, you know, it has to be the same. We have to reach similar states and we have to

be able to talk about it and we have to be able to see that they are as you know they're no longer objective like the outer reality but they are they are subjective but this subjectivity overlaps enough to be able to say yeah

we're talking about the same thing but it is it comes from experience inner experience instead of outer experience that's what that's where the the joining can come and that's why spirit Spirituality has to be the right word not religion because there are 200

religions in the world. They better they better combine themselves first right they cannot even agree with themselves.

How can we how can we create science and religion religion? I mean you have to have 200 science and religions then because all the religions are different.

So but there is only one physics in the world. So at least physics has already arrived to a level of unity because every everybody agrees because of the principles of physics are very clear.

You know you have a theory theory makes prediction and you make an experiment. If the experiment you know says a theory is right well even if the theory says something that appears crazy reality is that crazy. That's exactly

what has happened in the last 100 years because quantum physics makes predictions that nobody thought there was could exist that kind of reality.

Now we know that there is a reality much much more much much more different than what we thought.

You you've talked a lot and and your book includes so much about the differences between computers and humans and the differences between biological systems and those that are let's say being utilized for artificial intelligence. And what you talk about is

some of the beauty that every interaction that cells have is so much more than the sum of its parts. You talk about homeostasis. You talk about metabolic processes. And it's not enough to say, "Oh, cells are more than the sum

of their parts." You're talking about, and again, you can think about this on a human level. It's not just the individuals that are more than the sum of their parts. It's the interactions, the processes that occur when these

units interact is so much more than you could even imagine in the greatest fantasy. So can you talk about the cell being this microscopic, you know, beautiful quantum classical system, but the human being this macroscopic one and what that means practically for us?

Basically, you know, if you look at the organization of the body, uh the the organization of our body is we are 30 to 50 trillion cells and each cells as I mentioned even earlier is a part of the

entire organism because they all came out of a single cell and each cell or these 30 plus trillion that we have has the same genome. So he has the same fundamental capacity to express as the original cell that created the entire organism.

That's a that's amazing. I mean right now there are you know in in in quantum biology and also in advanced biology there are people that can reverse you know a cell that that is specialized can become can be be made to be a a a stem

cell which is a you know a a like a plan potentiary cell that that can create any other cell you know revert in a sense you know to become closer to the original cell that created the entire organism. Can you do that with a

computer? Is a computer organized the same way? Not even close. Not even close. A computer is made of switches.

On, off, on, off, on, off. That's it. At the best, the computer can know its own state, which is I'm open or I'm closed.

That's it. There is nothing else for the computer. A cell has the potential to understand the other cells because they have the same making. You can explain the operation like a machine by you know by deterministic things. But in a in in

living system the the cells make decisions which are you know highly probabilistic and you can only predict probability because the cells are quantum and classical system. Each cell doesn't work with the principle of class of classical physics. They work with the

principle of quantum physics primarily and then certain processes are closer to classical and other are purely quantum and we do not understand how one how a a cell works as a as anformational system that's why in my book I speak about live

information which is a different type of information between quantum information and classical information that information can explain will in the future be able to explain how living cells are informationational systems not biochemical systems. We have studied cells as if they were biochemistry.

No, not even close. You know, we can only explain a tiny bit. But cells are connected directly. All our cells are connected with the field that we are. So when when our the field that we are communicate with the body it doesn't

communicate with with you know you know with a piece of the system it communicates in parallel with with with the entire body. So so the the potentiality to selfhealing for example by people that are developed spiritually are enormous. It's but we have to start

by changing the idea of who we are. If we if we think that we are the body you know there is you know the only intervention has to come from the outside but but you know we are our the

field that we are can affect the body in ways that we have still to find out. So if we approach the cell and the biological systems as not just biochemical processes and those that obey the laws of classical physics

as informationational systems, right? If they areformational systems, this would be support for the notion that Bruce Lipton talks about that the cell is operating as a microcosm of the entire organism.

You know, we're talking about icons where the part is like the whole. So changing the environment of the cell as it were creating more positivity whatever that looks like on a cellular level is what has the potential you're

saying to then heal the body in ways that let's say western medicine may not be able to touch. And right now we have to do it from the outside because we don't know how we don't have developed enough of our own you know our our own

soul if you want to call it that way but our own spiritual aspects. So the next sort of evolution in medicine would be for all of us to have a better collective understanding of this sort of oneness and the deeper reality that that

consciousness and free will are providing so that even medicine could be affected by the ways that we approach the cellular systems. It's fascinating.

That's right. And the way that you approach the cellular system is you start with love again because you know and and the medicine that we practice today moves away from love because it's all about machines. We are you know we

are repairing a machine and that's it you know and the the the doctor that looks at the computer doesn't even look at you and you know ask question and it print you know types on the computer.

This is why people are going to energy workers and healers which some of them are legitimate and some of them are not.

But the notion that there is a spiritual solution to what is going on that is presenting itself as a biological one and sometimes it works in ways that appear to be miracles and they're not miracles because it shows that there is

something that can come from the inside out not only from the outside in. And beside when I say outside in, I I you know is the in is a different one because when I say from the outside in,

there is nothing in other than organs which is still outside. This part of the outside in in this in my in my meaning because the inside is not in the body.

The inside is the inner reality of meaning of qualia and meaning that's not in the body is in a field that controls the body. Okay. So unfortunately the words can can deceive us.

We hear a lot from people who listen who are trying to understand this, right?

They're trying to change their life. They may be suffering in this moment. What I'm hearing and what I believe to be true is that the first step to accessing a spiritual awakening to accessing the the ability to start to

heal oneself through adjusting the field is to start to change the mindset. first to believe it is possible and second to start to understand the mechanism that we're actually changing something. When we start to invoke love, when we start

to meditate, when we start to have a belief that something is possible, we're not just wishful thinking. We're actually changing the frequency that is everything that surrounds us, which then impacts the cell. In in my experience, the first step is to take responsibility

for what happens in your life. Okay? And that's the lesson that I learned by being CEO of a company in fact of more than one company where the good and the bad that happens in the company in one

way or another I had a lot to do my by doing something or even more by not doing something when I should have done something. That is a that is an idea that in the beginning was hard to grasp

because it is mostly by not doing what you what you should be doing that you attract to yourself suffering and whatever. Okay, for example, it was not taking care of myself for example my inner reality that I became very this estrange for myself

and I was unhappy with my life. Okay, for example, it was not because I did something wrong. It's because I didn't do what I was supposed to do.

And so, so it is very important to take that responsibility and it was exactly because I have to taken responsibility on my life that when I was suffering, I say somehow I created that for myself. I didn't look outside somebody to blame

for my state, but I say what did I do? I want to know what did I do to create this to myself. Who am I? Why is that?

Why is that worrying? Why is that going on with that sense with that sense of responsibility? This is my life. I am in charge of my life. That very important because if you don't go there, you will always find outside the problems that

affects you. They always come from the outside. That's why you go to the side to find the cure. But once you know that what you know your happiness or not depends on you from your interiority from your conscious self to your inner

experience the meaning the love that you have within for yourself from others that stuff then then you can find the solution. But if you don't if you you had to reach there first otherwise you will always look at some kind of magic

inside or outside to solve your problem but it's not you. We'd like to talk a little bit about um your new book which um we just got a little taste of and one of the quotes that I wanted you to talk

about as you introduce us to what this next book is. We're not matter we're not mind we are spirit that is meaning love joy and peace. And if we want to have a better future, we must all radically

change direction together. And to do this, we must first change our minds about who we are. Um, I inverted those intentionally. Um, talk a little bit about what this means and what this new book is going to introduce us to that is

not covered in irreducible, which I can't imagine there's anything left because I love this so much. But tell us what what we can expect.

Well, I mean I mean my next book is actually not in English yet. I mean it's I had translated it will be up in hope hopefully in six months or so even people who speak English might think that this is not written in

English it's very dense [laughter] that idea is an idea that will be my fourth book uh is an idea that the theory that that I have can actually be explained very effectively u with the concepts of body mind and

spirit which I I also illustrated uh earlier you know where you have essentially you can you know this these three aspects are not separ they're not separable but so when we concentrate with one we can not lose sight that the

other the other two are also present we tend to when we tend to concentrate on one we tend to separate the others because the you know the way we write and the way we think tends to you know

it tends to work that way because we focus something but in reality body, mind and spirit are three in in inseparable aspects which have overlaps like I mentioned before I mentioned six over six three overlaps plus the overlap in

the center which is all three together which is the the the essence of one essentially that's the white light the love peace joy meaning all that stuff is where we want to to get to to you know within ourselves in communicating and so

on to get to that meaning that unites that brings us back to one. The next book is beyond the invisible and beyond invisible is actually a conversation so it's easier to read and allows me to repeat things in different context

without being accused of repeating myself. You know [laughter] the context determines the meaning of you know I mean even particles you know when you know the the property of the particles depend on the interaction the particles has so reality is not built

with things that that are absolute is everything is relative to each other. We talk a lot about exceptional phenomenon. We talk a lot about extrensory perception on this podcast.

We really try and understand the science of many things that a lot of people would consider outside of science. I want to ask you a few things and I want you to give us your most honest answer both from your scientific and your

spiritual perspective. Okay. I'm going to start with kind of a softball one. Collective consciousness. Is there a collective consciousness?

There is a collective consciousness. I mean I mean you know in a sense we are a collective consciousness. We are fields of fields of fields of fields of fields.

So we exist with a comprehension which is all the comprehensions of of lower levels. You know like atoms are more than the you know than the parts that compose them and and the nucleons are more than the the protons and neutrons

but then the neutrons are more than the quarks and the and the and the gluons and you know this kind of thing.

What happens when we die? Is there an afterlife? Does consciousness exist after we die?

Yeah, I I think that I believe the essence of the near-death experiences of which there are hundreds of thousands uh you know known and hund hundreds of books written about. So people don't believe they should read at least one of

one or two of those books and have a sense of it because they they are you know their coherence of what happens is so strong that you know they and and those are people that don't have the the body

doesn't work anymore the brain doesn't work and uh you know they have extraordinary experience that changed their life. How can that be that you you know you have an experience that is so powerful that changes your life and you

were not even functioning as a body? I mean if we are the body that's a you know that needs to be explained and you cannot explain it by you know just eliminating it like uh scientism does you know if you don't there's something

if if something that you cannot prove something forget it it doesn't exist well that's that's that's too convenient.

Are we in a simulation? What do you think about simulation theory? No, we're not in a simulation. But this reality, however, is mostly virtual reality in the sense that but is a virtuality that we create. No, we're not

in a simulator created by somebody else and we are just little little avatars there thinking that we are, you know, that we are what we are. No, that's not no th this this is a game that we have

created and we are in the game that we created. So we are actor but also the creators of this game and we learn from this game to create other games.

[laughter] So, so I mean this is this is just u you know but a lot of this reality that we think is real is actually a construction of information that is experienced as a reality in the field. So it doesn't

exist here. It exists in the field in our consciousness. But because the quantum states of the field are not separable from the field, I cannot say that this is virtual.

Virtual reality is what you get with a computer for example, full virtual reality where the the the bits of the computer are entirely our creations.

They don't exist. We have created them and we are the ones our conscious is the one that gives reality to it. when we put a a headset and we see you know space and objects and things going around and we look around and looks like

is a real reality and it's all done by bits of the computer that is virtual reality that does not exist in the same sense that the game that I was talking about earlier exist we create our experience therefore we

can adjust our experience so in that way we can adjust the game some posit that the fields that all consciousness is a part of were created by some external force which would be the potential for the simulation. Not that our personal

experiences are simulated but that the entire creation of consciousness and all of the fields that make up it may have an external uh creator.

It's like, you know, my body is being created by a cell and every cell of my body is a copy of that cell that created this body. Okay? So I'm selfcreated.

There is not a creator. I'm a part whole of one. So I'm indivisible from one. So I'm one in some way, but not one in the sense that I'm I'm all of one. I'm a part whole of one.

It's is is a it's a holographic principle. It's not it's not made like computers are made. Machines are not made that way. They're not made of parts whole. They're made of parts. They are separable. About the evolution of

technology. You created the microprocessor before you had your big spiritual awakening. And so it's a two-part question. One, do you feel like that information was given to you in a way to have that breakthrough to create this worldchanging technology?

And two, how do you see the evolution of technology as it relates to our experience of ourselves to either know ourselves, some will say it's helped us know ourselves better, having conversations like this, being able to share information, while at the same

time it's distracted us from ourselves, increasing the ability to check out, to have digital distraction and create companies that their sole goal is to take every moment of our free time and attention. Perhaps the large my biggest invention was the invention of the

silicon gate technology that allowed to make a microprocessor that I did my first job when I came in this country. I was 26 working for fertile and that technology was five times faster than the previous technology was reliable. It

was you could put twice as many transistors and it had about 500 times less leakage current. So you could make dynamic random access memories to you couldn't do meonato memories before but with this technology you could do everything to make a

computer in a single chip and the first step was the memories dynamic RAM and the microprocessor. Microp processor also used dynamic RAM inside okay because the static RAM were the to too many transistors. So that is how I did

this thing. uh and it was an a number of intuitions that allow me to do that and then of course a lot of work but also the intuition was that the microprocessor were a you know were a new step in the evolution of computers

that would allow with this technology to miniaturaturize and have computers everywhere and so on. And so that that was uh something that I I you know I understood and I wanted to really create as fast as possible and Intel in the

early days was did not understand the management they don't understand the microp processor were the future they thought memories were the future computers the big computers they did not understand that the little that little thing could be a big thing right we have

now in one chip we have now computers that could couldn't even fit in a skyscraper for Christ's sake. I mean, in a chip like this now. So, I decided, you know, my my second generation microp processor, the 8080 of Intel, that it

took me nine months to convince them, my management to let me do it. And and and then when I done that, they was six times faster than better architecture done faster than the previous ones. They still were waiting wasting their time to

get the next one. And so I decided to start my own company. Said that's it.

I'm I I have I I have enough of this. So I started my first company. Zylo developed the Z80 that became the bestseller. I mean it's still in production today almost 50 years after it was introduced. So but but that

compared to what I'm doing now is like child play in a sense is a child playing in the sense that it only covers this stuff, you know, this stuff. But we we we we are beyond measure you know we

I mean that's what that's what excites me is that if we wake up to our own reality the machines that we do is you know already the brain you know our brain has about 100 trillion parameters GPT has three trillion parameters so and

our brain consumes 20 watts of power. Nobody can build a computer better than the brain. But not even close. Because we our our brain can do things that no computer in existence can do even by itself. Never mind by the

connection with the field that we are because it's it's like having a programmer and a and a conscious being connected with the brain and the brain is just a machine. The brain is a machine. So the machine does what

[clears throat] the programmer wants is on board. All is on board. So it's a you know is is a is a new world. So technology just use the way we use technology today without a sense of who we are can become dangerous and

that's the danger that I see is both in the nuclear technology that uh you know now an arsenal of tens of thousands of atomic bombs that any crazy person could use. uh so that that's a very dangerous uh you know very dangerous thing to have

you know sitting around and of course AI will become a major problem or a major or a major abundance if it is used right but to be used right we need to change the idea of who we are because if we

think that we are here to compete and to beat the less fortunate of us that's not the way the technology will help it will actually help those guys to destroy our humanity and that's not the game that I

would like to see. Fedrico Fine, it's really such a such a pleasure to get to speak to you. We're so grateful for your time.

Thank you. It's a pleasure. [music] I'm curious how you heard his explanation of how the cell is impacted by changing our perspective and changing the state around us. Look, I think this is a really important addition to so

many of our conversations about um in particular the kind of loving kindness meditation, the kind of um focus on um manifesting or placing yourself in an environment that feels like you've already achieved it. Um in the meditation that I led people in, that's

over on Substack, you know, that's what we talked about. imagine something beautiful and create the the emotional state as if you're there. It's very very powerful and I love how many different places we're getting for people to pull

from support for that. Whether it's Bruce Lipton, you know, from this more kind of, you know, cell biology perspective, or it's Fedrico Fine from this, you know, quantum and like micros microcosmic and macrocosmic, you know, quantum collective consciousness sort of

perspective. I'm super fascinated with this concept, you know, of love. Again, that's just the word you put on it.

Like, don't think about how you feel about the person that you're dating and, oh, well, I'm in love with them. What does that have to do with it? We're talking about the state of feeling joy, peace, serenity, that you are loved,

that you are taken care of. That's a different kind of, you know, what he's talking about is almost like a fundamental, you know, uh, foundation of the universe is that feeling that we were, you know, and these are the

religious concepts. We're created out of love, right? His description reminds me a lot of like the first time I sensed energy where my palm was tingling and all of a sudden I had an experience that was so foreign to how I had grown up and

anything that I had experienced in the past that I couldn't reconcile it with my understanding of reality. And when he describes that in order to change and come up with solutions that may not be purely based on competition

that may be more cooperative which we can't really imagine right now because our entire society is based on well if I get this then you don't get that and you know anything else is seen as unc capitalist and you know it's described

that capitalism is not the best option but it's better than all the others. Yeah. Yeah, in some cases I think you have to separate out these conversations. And I I really appreci I really appreciated your question especially from you know to ask the

creator of the you know what we use as a microprocessor and the phone that we hold in our hand to ask that person you know what would you have been like if you did not have a desire to compete to

get ahead to run a company like all those things but I think what he was saying also is you know and the question I didn't get to ask him but I kind of feel like I can imagine the answer you

know if he didn't create the microprocessor, would someone else have? The answer is is yes, of course. But would another human being have his particular awakening experience? No.

That was his alone. But as he indicated, that part is indicative of the entire whole, right? And that experience is sourced in what he calls one.

Yes. And when he talks about having that experience that is not able to be reconciled with everything else we understand to have that visceral powerful emotional and intellectual change.

That's the first step in solving other problems. when you say we have to keep these things divided is because not enough people have had that awakening to then imagine a world without the current incentive structures that exist right

now. Totally. Totally. And what I love about this conversation and about many of the others is that people start to paint an understanding and sort of shine a light on how they've done it and others can start to do it as well simply by hearing

these and opening up to the possibility that there is more. When we had Deepo Chopra on and he said just by listening to this conversation you are starting to change. It can feel like an overstatement, but if you've only seen the world in one

particular way and you start to imagine it in a different way, that's the first step to having those visceral awakening experiences.

This book, as I said, it's incredibly dense. Um, but is really it was a wonderful, you know, a wonderful exploration literally of exactly what he says consciousness life computers and human nature. We're going to have more about this conversation uh

reflections as they simmer for uh May and I. We're going to talk about how each one of us can have their own spiritual awakenings. We tell stories about different ways people wake up and have these profound moments where they

just feel a connection to something greater over on Substack. Join us breakdown on Substack.

And from our breakdown to the one we hope you never have, we'll [music] see you next time. It's my breakdown. She's going to break it down for you. She's got a neuroscience PhD [music] or two fiction and now she's going to

break down. So break down. She's going to break it down.