Speaker A
Do you have a sense, like the 1Ls I'm bringing in this fall, when they graduate in 2029, is it going to be vastly different or personally? I mean, for what it's worth, I would be surprised. But, you know,
Discussion on AI's impact on legal practice, environmental law, and mindfulness with UVA Law experts.
Key Takeaways
- AI is changing legal practice but requires lawyers to think more critically, not less.
- Environmental law is inherently interdisciplinary, involving multiple fields beyond just legal studies.
- Mindfulness and contemplative practices can support lawyers in managing stress and enhancing focus.
- Technological change in law is continuous and evolutionary rather than revolutionary.
- Legal education must adapt to incorporate AI literacy and ethical considerations.
Summary
- The video explores the future of legal practice amid AI advancements, focusing on how law students and lawyers must adapt.
- Natalie Blazer, Dean of Admissions at UVA Law, hosts Professor Mike Livermore, an expert in environmental law and computational legal studies.
- They discuss the interdisciplinary nature of environmental law, integrating science, economics, politics, and philosophy.
- Professor Livermore teaches a mindfulness course at UVA Law, highlighting the benefits of contemplative practices for legal professionals.
- The conversation touches on how AI tools like ChatGPT are transforming legal research and practice.
- The historical context of technology's impact on law is considered, emphasizing ongoing changes rather than radical disruption.
- They address the challenges and opportunities AI presents for legal education and ethical considerations.
- The discussion includes reflections on how mindfulness and AI might intersect with environmental law and legal practice.
- The video also covers the evolution of legal work, from document review to advanced computational methods.
- Overall, the episode provides a nuanced view of AI's role in shaping the future of law and legal education.
Chapters
- 00:00Introduction and AI's Impact on Legal Practice
- 02:56Mindfulness and Meditation in Legal Education
- 06:01Environmental Law and Interdisciplinary Approaches
- 09:03Historical Context of Technology in Law
- 12:08Understanding AI Models and Their Limitations
- 15:20AI's Role in Legal Reasoning and Case Analysis
- 20:10Transition and Evolution of Legal Technology
- 23:54Ethical Considerations and Future Directions
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
that doesn't mean there won't be changes. You know, we get sated for food. Like, agriculture is a much more part of the economy than it used to be in terms [music] of labor. And that has resulted in less labor demand and a shift in
Speaker A
labor out of agriculture and into other fields. Mhm. But law is different, right? I don't think people get sated. You know, like, we can only eat so many calories, right?
Speaker A
Whereas, the fundamental thing of law is human disputes. And I think that is a well that has no bottom.
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[laughter] This is Admissible. [music] I'm Natalie Blazer, Dean of Admissions at UVA Law. I am very excited about today's show. I think our topic today causes myself, maybe a lot of people, some trepidation.
Speaker A
The topic is artificial intelligence, AI, [music] and specifically how it is impacting law school, lawyers, the legal profession. Um, I actually talked about this in my orientation speech in the fall. And my point to the incoming class was something along the lines of, you
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know, I think a lot of people think AI means we can use our brains less, but I actually think for lawyers, and you know, future law students, current law students, they have to actually be thinking more. So, I kind of want to
Speaker A
know your take, maybe, um, uh, how accurate that was. But, anyways, I have an actual expert on here today, um, [music] to talk about this, not just my like immature musings. Um, joining me today is Professor Mike [music]
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Livermore. He is a law professor at the University of Virginia School of Law. Professor Livermore writes about environmental law, courts, and regulation. He's also one of the early adopters of computational tools to study law and legal institutions. He co-edited
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the book Law as Data in 2019 [music] that describes the style of research which has exploded since then with ChatGPT and the new generation of AI.
Speaker A
Welcome to the show, Professor Livermore. Thanks. Yeah, it's wonderful. I'm happy to be here.
Speaker A
I'm so excited you're here. I will call you Mike from here on out if that's okay.
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Do. Um, great. So, Mike is very humble and he chopped his very impressive bio down quite a bit, um, which I'm fine with, um, 'cause we have lots to get to, but listeners to go on our website and see
Speaker A
his full academic and professional background 'cause it's really relevant to what we're going to talk about today.
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But, what's maybe like a fun fact that people don't know? Oh, right. My fun fact. Um [laughter] you know, I'm terrible at fun facts. Um I teach a law and meditation class at the law school. Um it's it's it's
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mindfulness in legal practice is the name of the course. Um I'm on the board of the contemplative sciences center here at UVA and I think those are probably things that not everyone No.
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Me. I was going to ask this later because I did see that we teach that course, which I love and I would love to come audit it. Would you say that everybody should be meditating?
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You know, I'm I kind of think that, but I also know that it isn't actually for everybody. Um Okay.
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Or that having been said, you know, I think some kind of contemplative practice is probably good for lots and lots of people. The same way that some kind of exercise is good for lots of people. Not everyone is going to be a
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runner or lift weights, you know, it's going to depend on your body, your interest, your motivation, everything else, how old you are.
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And so, um I think it's a little bit like that. And contemplative practices are very diverse. So, meditation, when we when we think of that, we often think of kind of sitting meditation, a very specific kind of activity that does have benefits for
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lots of folks, at least I think so, and there's there's some evidence to support that. But that's not the only kind of contemplative practice there is and so I think there is there's an element where if we if we're in that box of very
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specific practice it probably isn't for everybody. But when we think more broadly about the range of contemplative practices it probably there's something to be said for for nearly everybody.
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Yeah, it's one of those things where I feel yes, I picture the sitting still and the closing my eyes and that for me is like the major hurdle. [laughter] But it's good to know that there's something for everyone. You also teach
Speaker A
environmental law and you are an expert environmental law. So I would love to know like is that why you went to law school in the first place or how did that interest come about?
Speaker A
Yeah, so I've I've been working on environmental issues for for a long time. I started working for the an environmental organization right out of high school in 1995. So it's been 30 years which it's it goes by quickly.
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[laughter] Um and so yeah, so during undergrad I was very active in environmental issues. I worked for an environmental organization after undergrad and before law school.
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And so yeah, when I went to law school I definitely had environment in mind and the potential for pursuing a career in [music] kind of NGO work. I'd already done some of that before.
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And you know, I took a general law school curriculum but I did kind of focus on environmental issues. I worked closely with one of my professors Ricky Revesz who's still at NYU. That's where I went to law school. And after law school I
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spent a year as a fellow working on a book with with Ricky. And and then after I clerked I went back to NYU and I ran an institute there for several years on environmental issues.
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So those are that really is the the kind of base and origins of how I ended up in law school.
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And so the topic we're going to talk about today, artificial intelligence, I'm wondering if there and you talked about the class on meditation, is there a way that these three areas, environmental, AI, meditation, do they converge or are they
Speaker A
totally separate? You tell me. [laughter] I don't know that I could probably tell some kind of story about how they converge.
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Um and and it feels like it all makes sense to me, but I could certainly understand how someone that wasn't me would look at this and see a kind of a potpourri.
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Yeah. Um I mean, environmental law and and environmental law and economics has been a long-standing interest.
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Which I what you know, what part of what attracts me to environmental law is and I say this to my students in my environmental law class, it's very multi-interdisciplinary.
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Like you really when you are interested in environmental law, then you're that engages with environmental science, that engages with engineering, that engages with economics, it engages with politics, it engages with philosophy, really across the board. Many disciplines in the sciences and the
Speaker A
humanities intersect and with real-world politics. It all kind of comes together in environmental law. And so that's part of what really attracts me to environmental law and policy. And I think with the use of computational tools to study law and legal
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institutions, that's really what I that side of my work I think that's also very interdisciplinary. That's some social sciences, economics, political science, law obviously, but also computer science, mathematics. And so that ability to be at the intersection of lots of disciplines and ways of
Speaker A
thinking I is part of what draws me to both. And then mindfulness is just, you know, it's that opportunity to be reflective, to kind of step back.
Speaker A
And so yeah, I have there's a philosophical element to some of that that I think attracts me as well.
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Yeah. I feel like mindfulness, so much of that is being present, which I feel is so difficult for law students and maybe lawyers because we're always trying to anticipate, plan ahead, and so like I think that's where like it intimidates me because I'm
Speaker A
always either reflecting or like anticipating. Um but what you said about environmental makes perfect sense cu
Speaker A
should know that Mike has his own podcast. Is that all environmental law? Yes, it's environmental law and policy.
Speaker A
Environmental law and policy. Okay. It's called Free Range. Free Range with Mike Livermore, yep.
Speaker A
Okay, check it out. Um that's awesome. I was Normally I have newbies in here. So but you're like a pro, I can tell already. So I want to talk about the course you teach focused on artificial intelligence. I believe it's called
Speaker A
LawTech. Yep. Rather than read the description from the website, which I was originally planning to do, can you just describe what that course covers, how you teach it?
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Yeah. So what that course kind of takes as its object is the transformations in the legal profession that are happening as a consequence of kind of contemporary technological developments around information technology, computation, artificial intelligence, all that kind of stuff. Now, you know, some of this is
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to some of the course is to place these contemporary changes in a broader historical context cuz technology has been changing law and what it means to be a lawyer for as long as there's been lawyers, really. Technology information
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technology specifically is completely entangled with law. Like we got law right after we got writing, for example, and writing is an information technology. And the printing press really changed what it meant to be a lawyer. And various forms of information
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storage, Uh, you know, like the West Reporter system that we have in the US, which is a kind of information technology, that changes the nature of the legal profession. Uh, email changes, searchable databases, all of these things have been changing what it means
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to be a lawyer for a long time. So, there's a a longer scope to that entanglement of the profession and technology.
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Uh, so we talk a little bit about that, but we're mostly focusing on what's happening today. And so, in that course we focus on several different ways that you can think of the interaction of information technology, computation, and
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law, and we're kind of building a set of building blocks, putting together a set of building blocks uh, so that we can understand the current moment with large language models and ChatGPT-like things and how all that is is is going to affect is affecting and
Speaker A
going to affect legal practice in the coming years. When you teach this course, you're you you know, when when you come across these law students are they all all pretty these days like familiar with AI with and and I'll just
Speaker A
back up for a second because as you mentioned, we've always had sort of some version of information technology in the last, you know, however many years.
Speaker A
But like when I was in law school, there was no iPhone yet. When I was practicing at a firm, you know, it was BlackBerry and and and which seems just so kind of quaint now.
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Do law students now are they like using ChatGPT or they really familiar with these tools?
Speaker A
How do you experience that? There's a just a big range. I think this is this generation here, there's um, there's just a really big range. I would I would think in 10 years that law students will come in and they will all
Speaker A
have some experience with these models um, just in their daily lives and so on, but um, but that's not the case with the law students who are currently in law school. I actually just asked this question in my law tech class, which are
Speaker A
obviously a self-selected group of students, and actually the vast majority said that they did not regularly use Claude or ChatGPT or anything like that.
Speaker A
And is there a practical component to the course? Like are you experimenting with those tools or A little bit, we do. We do a little bit.
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Although there's a lot of theory in the class, which you might guess from my interest.
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But but I think that would be useful, too. And there is a little, but we're mostly what I'm trying to accomplish with the course is to give students the tools to kind of understand what is going on with
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these models, what the foundations are, which will then, I hope, allow them to evaluate what the models are good at and what they're bad at and how they're going to evolve over time.
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Cuz really I don't want to focus so much on like, here's how you use Claude version 4.2 because there's going to be 4.3 next year. It's going to That that that's going to get stale very very fast. Whereas I'm hoping that the
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principles that I'm focusing on, that we're all the class is focusing on, are will have more staying power.
Speaker A
For sure. And do you see, like if I'm a law student today in 2026, because of these the artificial intelligence tools that exist today, is like the law school experience different, do you think, than like I think you and I went to law
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school around the same time, like early 2000s. Is the actual experience of law school different in terms of like writing their briefs or how faculty, you know, do their part of, you know, grading or anything? Or is it Is it
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really fundamentally the same? Yeah, I think social media has been a bigger influence on people's lives in that period of time than than anything with ChatGPT. Again, at right now, I think no different or not that So to to
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say no different is wrong, but not so different from say five years ago, right?
Speaker A
Where the social media thing happened. Um and that was a really big transform formation. More in the social texture of people's lives than in the law school experience. But the social part is is is important. But going forward, I think
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the changes are going to be more substantial. Although we will see. Uh but I would think that um the same way for example when I took uh my uh legal writing course basically at NYU, part of what we
Speaker A
did was go into the library and use open books to do legal research. Right? That was We all knew that that was a little dated, but that was thought that there was something valuable about about doing that. And that does not exist anymore.
Speaker A
They don't do that? They don't do that anymore apparently. Yeah. I mean, yeah, but we also don't teach kids how to you know ride horses [laughter] you know, before we teach them how to drive. Even though maybe in
Speaker A
theoretically it'd be a good [laughter] But um but yeah, so I think so that has changed. That's like like kind of one change. The classroom dynamics is a lot more like I interact with students through Canvas um somewhat regularly. That's a technology
Speaker A
that you know, that kind of stuff existed when I was in law school, but faculty weren't really using it in a big way. So I think there are you know, there are changes and ChatGPT may lead to more
Speaker A
changes. Um like for example, you can do things with this technology that I could imagine having a lot of uh you know, kind of teaching value. But uh I don't think it's widely spread. So for example, you can upload a case, a
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Supreme Court case into uh Claude or Gemini or something like that. And you know, this isn't a substitute for reading the thing, but you could interrogate with the model. You can say I've Is this a an appropriate interpretation of this case? And then
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the model can come back and say you know, uh yes and no. Blah blah blah.
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You might look at this and like, well, what about this? You can argue back and forth with the model about the best way to think about a case or how one case fits with another case or whatever.
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It's just very interesting that you can do that kind of thing. I could imagine that being useful for a student who's learning, but I don't think there's a lot of deployment of that stuff just yet.
Speaker A
And what about, I hate to even ask this, but like at UVA, the honor code is a big deal. Do you think that AI has implications for the honor code in terms of like faculty say, "Hey, you can't and
Speaker A
and actually maybe the better question is are faculty all over the map when it comes to letting or, you know, permitting students to use AI and some are just flat out against it? And if they're against it, are students doing it
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anyway? Yeah, it's hard to know, of course. I I think in general, uh most faculty are not letting students use these models in their courses. I have a kind of somewhat nuanced policy where it's okay for certain things, but not
Speaker A
for other things. And um you know, my view on this is that we can generally trust our students.
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For sure. Right? They're they're they're they're good they're good people and they want to learn and they don't want to get caught.
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[laughter] And so all those things kind of point in the same direction. Yeah. That having been said, I don't think it's a great idea to set up a situation where you're you're really penalizing honest people.
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Yeah. Right? Where it it the where the temptation just gets really big and and it's not fair in some sense to say to the for the honest students to really have a harder time as a consequence of that. And so I think we do have to do
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things to make sure that that's not happening. Um and and we have changed some things about how exams are administered and I've changed some things on how my class works.
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Uh and that all makes sense. Just because the models for certain things, like for example, I used to give kind of short quizzes of a particular kind, certain kinds of questions and these are questions that chat GPT can
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just answer really easily and I and I just don't want to place students in that awkward position of you know, just really being tempted to do that.
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I see. Okay. So faculty are adapting and kind of changing which I I like to hear that.
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I I remember like playing around with it a little bit you know, trying to see if I could tell that something cuz obviously I read applications all day long. Um I'm not confident fully that I would know something is written by AI
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but what I always say is like if it sounds like it's written by AI for me that's just as bad.
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Sure, exactly. It's bad. It's It's bad writing. Although you know, this is going to one of the things I say in my classes that we currently have the worst AI that you're going [snorts] to see for the rest of
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your life. Wow. Right? It's only going to get better. Only going to go in one direction. And so um Yeah, I I mean I already am not confident that I could tell the difference in in lots of areas and with
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a little bit of sophistication on the user's side then you can almost certainly make that difference go away.
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Um and so so yeah, but I think you're that attitude of what I care about is the is the product and if you don't if that's not it like if part of what you care about is they did it unassisted
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then I think you have to set up an environment where that's going to work that way. Like a handwritten thing Right.
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locked computer or whatever or an interview that's face-to-face or whatever it is. Um if that's important and which it may be in certain context like in the application context or for teaching purposes absolutely sometimes it really matters. And then but I do
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think we can overemphasize that. I I think it is important actually and you know, people are moving in this direction to give students the opportunity to learn how to use these tools as well cuz if we just ban it
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across the board they're going to graduate and they're not There's a valuable tool that they're not going to know how to use well.
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I couldn't agree more. And yes, I I would say in the application process, the interview has become more important than ever because it is the contemporary yes, you know, sort of how do you express yourself and things like that.
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And this is kind of what I said in my orientation speech in the fall, like you as a lawyer today, and this is where I kind of want to go next, the impact on the legal market, right? Like I'm sure
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you follow the career sort of the way the career market um legal jobs market has just gotten sort of crazy in terms of how rabid these employers are to hire law students.
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They're getting at them from the very beginning of 1L year. They're paying them to not work for a competitor. Like all these things that like at the end of the day, like I think are all to the good. At UVA law students at
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least are very much still in demand. So, to me that says like, okay, the legal jobs are clearly still there.
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They're not We're not law young lawyers are not being wholesale replaced. But but what is different for them? If they're graduating this year and they're going to a big firm, like are they expected to know how to use these tools?
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It's a good question, and again, I think it varies a great deal by the firm and it kind of changes quite rapidly. I don't think that there's nothing that people can't be on-boarded for or whatever at this stage. Yeah, I don't think anyone
Speaker A
Yeah, we all got trained, right? Like deposition training, you know, filing a all that stuff. So, yeah, that's a good point.
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I don't think that we're at this stage there. Um but it could it could happen uh at some future date where uh firms have integrated the technology more fully and that students are expected to come in at a higher level.
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This is all very much in a moment of transition where we're at right now. I mean, these models are constantly being improved. They They're just a few years old, you know, I mean, technology technological change it happens over
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time. The legal profession is a little conservative in certain respects, in part because a lot of the matters that, you know, especially these major law firms are brought in on are very, very high stakes, at least from a financial
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perspective. And so, um people want to be very, very careful and they're not going to just start, you know, throwing, you know, um you know, throwing new tech at something um unless it's really, really, really they have high confidence
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in it. And so, so I think the change is going to you there might be a an element of it happens very slowly and then all at once.
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Mhm. And I think we're in the very slow if that's true, we're in the very slowly phase. There may be a at some subsequent point in all at once, but we have not reached that point.
Speaker A
So, I was going to ask that. Like, do you have a prediction? You know, I have I have a husband who's in digital marketing. And so, AI is impacting him probably more than the average person. Um he is
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always saying, "A year from now, like this or that." And like he's making all these dire predictions um that frankly scare scare me. Do you have a sense like if if our graduates the one else I'm bringing in this fall, when they
Speaker A
graduate in 2029, is is it going to be like vastly different or personally. I mean, for what it's worth, I would be surprised.
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Um See, that makes me feel better. [laughter] Right. And but, you know, that doesn't mean there won't be changes, right? And but the legal profession has just has just evolved a lot with technology over time. And I think one of the things
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we could do is we could kind of break out different kinds of buckets and different kinds of change. So, one issue that people worry about is like a radical slackening of demand for for human lawyers, okay? This is possible,
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but I personally do not think that that's very likely. And my little argument for this goes like this.
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Generally speaking, when you increase productivity, right? When you increase someone's productivity, when you give someone a better plow. They had a a a a not a very effective plow, and now they have a better plow, right? Well, you've
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actually you've made that person's labor more valuable because they're standing behind a better plow. So, one possible one possibility is that they just plow the field faster and that's all the field there is and now you need fewer
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people, right? So, that's the kind of substitution effect. But, you might also then say, "Oh, there's this other field that was not worth plowing before because it was so expensive, and now because we have the better plow, we can
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plow this field." And so, when you actually need more people, okay? So, those both things of those can happen simultaneously, both of those effects, the substitution effect and then a kind of productivity demand increase effect.
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And and part of that is like whether we get enough of something. So, you know, we get sated for food. Like agriculture is a much smaller part of the economy than it used to be in terms of labor.
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Like a very a tiny fraction of people work in agriculture compared to like 500 years ago when 90% of population worked in agriculture. And so, uh there there was real humongous, massive, almost unimaginable productivity increases, and that has
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resulted in less labor demand and a shift um in labor out of agriculture and into other fields.
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My but law is different, right? I don't think people get sated, you know, like we can only eat so many calories, right?
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Um whereas the the fundamental thing of law is human disputes, and I think that is a well that has no bottom.
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[laughter] I think there is an un- or worse. ending supply of human disputes, and then the question is is how much are they legalized, right? Like right now we do a lot of disputing that is not through the law, or we have kind of it's
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it's light. The the the touch of the law is a little light, and we might have a short contract and then the contract will get longer and more complex, so that deals will get more complex or there's a complexification that could
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happen. And and this isn't to say this is good or bad and maybe it's bad. Um but I don't I don't I don't see there being less demand for lawyers as a consequence of that. So, there might be other
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negative effects, but um but I don't think a um uh a massive uh reduction in the number of lawyers is personally in the offing, especially like again, what might happen is the value you might move up in the
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value chain. Yep. So, certain tasks that are currently done by lawyers will get turned over to, you know, technology, which is always again always been the case.
Speaker A
And then you move up the value chain, right? And so, in the maybe, you know, I don't know, 50 years ago a lawyer would have spent more time doing legal research, and that became much more efficient because of computers
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and so on. And so and databases, and so there's a smaller amount of time that's spent on that, and there's more time spent on other things.
Speaker A
Right. And I I that's more what I would anticipate, but again, um we will just have to have to see.
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There is so much I want to pull on here. It it it just reminds me of this article I read um about how the industries that are being impacted the most by AI, actually those workers are going to be
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the ones in some cases who are going to be able to adapt the most and and benefit from AI the most. So, like web developers, for example, I think you're making an argument that lawyers, you know, again being becoming more
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efficient. And in this article, they talked about, you know, when electricity was invented and, you know, okay, so there's an elevator now, and they thought, well, but now suddenly you need an elevator attendant. So, that actually created a job, but then they came up
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with the button. [laughter] So, it took away. So, it's like cyclical Um and so I agree with you that lawyers have always had these technology or technological tools that have forced them to adapt. This is a scary kind of technology I think because
Speaker A
because of the way that it imitates people and because of the speed and because of the sort of I don't know omniscient maybe some people would say I don't think it's there yet but I I feel very comforted in like your
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take on the whole thing. I actually want to talk about you gave a presentation about a year and a half ago at a law at a law school faculty and alumni lunch all about artificial intelligence and so just like
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for listeners I would be curious has anything changed in sort of your belief in AI or your your feeling about it in the last year and a half and what does that say for like the next year and a
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half? Right so I I mean I think I hold by most of what I said. I don't know if I'm recounting my prior views in light [laughter] of you know how things have developed but I think more or less the progress has
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happened to pace. I mean a year and a half ago of course people were saying artificial general intelligence is on the horizon there's going to be a jobs apocalypse and we have super intelligence and the singularity is just
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you know a year away. Nope and I never thought that that was completely overblown.
Speaker A
Um and and but there's been real progress you know and and I think that's it's something it's almost cognitive thing with with with us as human beings is that it's hard for us to accept the kind of boring middle right?
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In some sense it's like we want to imagine some kind of spectacular thing we're all going to be living on Mars or whatever or like at the apocalypse or no change or everything's going to stay exactly the same. And really, it's just
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the there's been really interesting and important and really cool progress in that period of time, but nothing that's so radically transformative. I think kind of reasonable reasonable people having reasonable expectations a year and a half ago would have seen those
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expectations roughly met. I think what really did change when the thing that hit me that was big was when ChatGPT came out.
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Okay. There were I mean, I followed this, you know, I I that book came out 2019. That was before this, you know, that was obviously before this stuff. And so, I followed the literature on on natural on the kind
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of computational tools that we use to understand language and to produce language and work with people who are real experts in the area.
Speaker A
And who were interested in using tools to generate like poetry. And I had a friend who ran a competition every year where people offered their models to see what was the best Oh, wow.
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computer-generated poetry. And the transformation that happened when ChatGPT came cuz before that, even very smart people in PhD programs, mathematicians, all the whole deal, were producing poetry that was like, nah, you know, let's just say, not good poetry, right?
Speaker A
Like, maybe poetry kind of. And then you have ChatGPT and you can say, "Make me a haiku about quantum mechanics." And it will do that, right?
Speaker A
Wow. And that that was a really big transformation that certainly I did not and I don't think very many people anticipated.
Speaker A
Yeah. Um that was the big change. Everything else has kind of played out, I think, according to, in some sense, normal technology technological change, where we've been building and improving and whatever else. That having been said, just to to put a fine point on that,
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normal technology technological change is the difference between the Wright brothers doing their thing, you know, flying for what, 50 m or however far it was, and the Boeing 747, right? That's the normal change that I'm talking about, which is rather important. That's from
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taking something that, you know, is is a novelty and turning it into something that fundamentally transforms international relations and the economy and culture and everything else. And so, that's I think what's in the offing.
Speaker A
We're doing that normal technological change where we're taking that important discontinuity and we're consolidating it and in that process of consolidation there's going to be a lot of transformation.
Speaker A
What I'm really trying to picture in my head is like if we were to chart it like on a graph, right? And like 2024 when you gave this talk, um November 2024 to now, and then like from now to a year
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and a half, is it going to be just like a hockey stick? Yeah, I mean it's it's a growth model, right? And and growth is hard for us to understand as human beings, right?
Speaker A
Maybe that's why I'm struggling. Right. So, so there's a there's a kind of a funny it's a little imagined hypothetical that helps us kind of get the intuition of why our brains don't work very well for uh uh for growth
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models. So, say there's a pond and there's lilies that grow on this pond, okay? And let's say that the number of lilies doubles every year, all right?
Speaker A
And we know that the pond is going to be completely covered in lilies in 100 years, how long does it take for the pond to be covered halfway? For half the pond to be covered?
Speaker A
I have no idea. Right, you don't It's okay, you don't have to answer it. Many people have an intuition that's like 50 years, something like that. It's 99 years because then it doubles the next year, right? And so,
Speaker A
it our brains just don't work around these kind of growth models, but that's the, you know, and anything that grows consistently has like a future like that. And so, I I do think but then often with technology you have a growth
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phase and then a leveling off phase. And I think we're in the growth phase. Like I said, there was the discontinuity, there's a consolidation where that at a growing rate is going to find its way like the lilies across the pond.
Speaker A
Yep. Working their way into the economy, and then there's going to reach a point of saturation.
Speaker A
Yep. And we don't know where that is yet. And we don't know where we are in this whole situation. We don't know what that saturation point looks like.
Speaker A
If you had like a number one concern or fear about artificial intelligence, like what would it be?
Speaker A
It's more around things like the distribution of wealth Uh-huh. and political power, the way that these models could influence politics, uh scams, you know, like if if if we get really good vo- you know, we we're very close
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to having very good voice and very good real-time interactions. And so, you know, a a scammer can can just call everyone in the country on their cell phones, and it sounds like a real person asking for their private information.
Speaker A
Sounds like their kid asking for, you know, emergency funds, right? And sophisticated people maybe will be okay, although some people will I you know, anyone could fall for that.
Speaker A
Totally, yeah. Um but of course, you know, there's going to be a range of sophistication.
Speaker A
So, I worry more about that kind of thing. And it's there's a bit of an arms race because there's going to be the, you know, some bad actors that will be trying to use this technology, and then there's good actors. Also, the you know,
Speaker A
the whole geopolitics around this stuff is very sketchy. So, I so that that it would be more about people using these tools for kind of nefarious ends.
Speaker A
Yeah. So, I I I would say that's you know, where my worry would be.
Speaker A
I would hope that it would place even more of an emphasis back on the in-person interactions.
Speaker A
Mhm. Yeah, I mean and people worry about this with like deep fakes. Like maybe we're just going to no one will can trust any video. Um even in court you can't use, you know, video testimony or video evidence. You
Speaker A
can't use pictures because there's just no way to tell the difference between a fake and a real version. Problem with that is that eyewitness testimony is terrible.
Speaker A
[laughter] It's It's like so inaccurate. Very unreliable. Unreliable. I mean, I It's amazing we put people in prison based on eyewitness testimony given what we know about how unreliable it is.
Speaker A
But then, what are you going to do? And so, video evidence, maybe we would There was just a moment where we had this tool that was so great that we always have someone more reliable understanding of what was happening in the world and
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we're not going to be able to do that anymore. Which would be a bummer, of course.
Speaker A
Right. Gosh, because yeah, that would be the one thing we could trust. Well, it's on camera. But now you can't. Wow.
Speaker A
Want to hear more about courses being taught by UVA Law faculty? Tune in to season 7, episode [music] 6 of the show, where Professor Kimberly Robinson discusses the unique experience students get in her seminar in Ethical Values course.
Speaker A
Seminars in Ethical Values are topics that professors identify and they typically [music] bring They have small groups of students, so it's up to 12 students and you often times meet in the professor's home.
Speaker A
I take my students sometimes to a restaurant, but either way, you have an [music] intimate conversation with the professor and your classmates about a particular topic that relates in some way to [music] Ethical Values.
Speaker A
So, my seminar in Ethical Values is Women of the Supreme Court. And you do six meetings a year for these seminars and so, there are six women uh that have been or are on the Supreme Court, so it works out beautifully.
Speaker A
That's great. Um and so, we study those women, we read their biographies or autobiographies and [music] we discuss their career paths, we discuss their childhood, everything from undergraduate to law school to their practice of law until they land on the
Speaker A
court. And it's fascinating. [music] You see some really interesting things that are similar for them across the board and then you see real differences between them and it's just it's a wonderful [music] course. I love teaching it. The students really enjoy
Speaker A
it. It's really a joyful experience. Yeah. So, I want to talk about the role of of law schools in all of this because I think it's really important and at the end of the day, I think they already are
Speaker A
but I want our students to continue to be prepared for like this world that is awaiting them in the legal market. Um and you know, even just in our brief conversation so far, I feel I feel better about the fact that maybe
Speaker A
our law students and our faculty don't see AI as like just a shortcut, people using it as a shortcut for their brains.
Speaker A
They're really trying more to you know, it's not leading to like or or maybe it is. Like a laziness or a just checking out and I'm just going to have AI do this. Like I think what we're dis-
Speaker A
drilling down in them is like, "No, you need to actually be thinking more critically because what is your what is going to be your value as a human then?" Right.
Speaker A
Yeah, and I think and and the role of law schools is is is going to continuously have to be um considering that question. What's the value proposition of the students, right? And it was very of the of our
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graduates. And that was a very stable thing for a long time and I think there will continue to be a lot of stability.
Speaker A
Mhm. Mhm. You know, skills like close reading, critical thinking, you know, um listening carefully, self-presentation, all the things that we teach in law school, those are going to continue to be valuable. Um you know, we you might one might worry about this kind of
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laziness factor, but the reality is you could get out of the laziness factor by just saying, "Look, you have to you know, you're going to do this on an exam and your computer is locked, so you can't use the tool." Right.
Speaker A
Which I think had like techniques like that have a place. They they do have a place because sometimes it is important for example learning how to write without chat GPT is important so that even if you're going to use chat GPT to help you write
Speaker A
for the rest of your life that core skill of doing it yourself is going to make you better at interacting with the with the tool. I do think we can't assume that all the time. We do have to
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consider what are the things that we're teaching that are going to continue to be important and maybe say there are certain things that we're teaching like copy like spelling became like being a good speller became less important when
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spell check hit the you know hit the market, right? And in the past like you really could not be submitting you didn't want to be submitting briefs with like lots of spelling errors in them and so you know
Speaker A
being able to check a document and identify spelling errors was kind of an important skill that somebody on the team had to have, right? And now nobody on the team really has to have that particular skill. You just copy editing
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is still important but you're not going to use have words that are actually misspelled, right? Because spell check will pick them up.
Speaker A
And it may be that chat GPT when you're in the course of writing can you know for example like one of the things that I'll use chat GPT for is I'll have a paragraph that I'm not happy with and I'll say here's paragraph I'm
Speaker A
not happy with it. Give me 10 more give me 10 versions of this and then it gives me 10 versions and then I know use any of them but I you know kind of unclogs my mind a little bit and then it can
Speaker A
help me like restructure it the way I want it. And you can't do that if you're not already kind of all practiced at the skill of writing, right? Right? You have to be have that core skill but and then you
Speaker A
can rely on the on the tool and you know and in the past if I hadn't had that I would have really just required a lot of patience to continue to sit there and think, right? That and that pain and
Speaker A
maybe I don't need as much of that anymore because I can just the the I can keep the flow going, you know? So, some skills might become a little bit less important. Other skills are going to become more important and it's just I
Speaker A
think that part of our job though is to keep on considering what those are and make sure that we're importing the important ones and not overly emphasizing stuff that maybe like if we were going to really focus on spelling tests for our students
Speaker A
wouldn't be such a a good use of their time. But you really led me right into what I always struggle with. I don't I may have talked about this on the show before.
Speaker A
I've certainly talked about it with people in my life like that struggle. I feel it there is value in that. There is inherent value in sitting there and thinking harder.
Speaker A
And like I actually think a couple years ago I talked about this in another orientation speech like don't go Google the answer because I'm afraid that the more we rely on these tools, you know, it's just like when you're going out for
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a walk in a new city or a run or whatever and you're so tempted to like get out Google Maps.
Speaker A
But then that but then like there will be a time where you kind of need your sense of direction. So, I don't know. I could go down a whole like side Yeah, no, these are all interesting questions.
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I remember I was in a an unfamiliar city recently and my phone ran out of batteries and I was just like how am I going to say it was one way or you know, how am I going to say and then I thought
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you know, we're both old enough to remember before there was iPhones and I got around all the time without a map, you know, and I think that is I'm glad that I have that skill set.
Speaker A
I think another kind of interesting example is like a translation app. So, say you're trying to learn a new language, okay? Are you better off with a translation app? In a certain sense, absolutely unquestionably yes, okay? Cuz you can look up words. it it facilitates
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your ability to interact with a language, and so on and so forth. So, there's many ways that having a translation app on your phone readily available can be an aid in language learning and acquisition. But, if you overly rely on it, and if your brain
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recognizes that, you know, it doesn't have to remember words because you can just look them up, then you're you're never going to acquire the language. So, so these things are a balance. Um and we have to we have to really consider this
Speaker A
cuz think there's a way in which we have to we we should as professors and as folks thinking about the future of the law school not just say because I learned how to do this, this must be valuable for people
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to learn how to do, and I suffered and they must suffer. [laughter] But, at the same time um just because it's difficult doesn't mean we need to eliminate it. It might be, you know, I've I've I I teach a mindful
Speaker A
class. We sit there and we Yeah. And and and that's not hopefully too much suffering. But, it's effortful.
Speaker A
Yeah, yes. And but it's the thinking is that it's valuable. And so um so [clears throat] merely because it's effortful is not a justification.
Speaker A
But, we shouldn't, of course, be afraid to continue to um to uh um you know, have law school be an effortful experience.
Speaker A
Absolutely. I love the way you put that. It's I mean, it's not meant to be easy.
Speaker A
And I will say yes um when you and I were in law school and walking around without Google Maps and all these things, we struggled in our own way. I would say like I feel for these students now and young lawyers now because to
Speaker A
adapt every however often to these new tools, I think is also a a unique struggle.
Speaker A
Absolutely. They need to adapt. I mean, just as just a a clear example, it was not I did not have the challenge with distractibility.
Speaker A
Oh god, so that folks have struggle with these days, right? And my life was easier as a consequence of that.
Speaker A
So true. Can you imagine going through law school? I can't. Going through law school with social media, with an iPhone, with anything. I really can't.
Speaker A
They are really contending with a lot of distractions, as you said. And so so putting your head down really and doing the work it is is potentially harder than ever. And so I really do commend them for when when they're able to do
Speaker A
that. Um so you mentioned um the future of or where the our law school is going.
Speaker A
And I kind of want to talk about that as we start to wrap up.
Speaker A
You teach your law school at course. I have heard rumors, rumblings that there are like new additions to the curriculum like in the upcoming year. Do you know anything about that or can you share anything about that in the space of artificial
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intelligence? I mean people are adding we're adding courses all the time. I I I'd have to go look at the at the at the at the course uh schedule to really know exactly what's happening.
Speaker A
Um you know, I know Tom Nachbar teaches a class at engage with AI. And and of course there's the kind of specific AI piece, but there's also like cybersecurity and national security. There's a lot of related Yes.
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spaces. And so yeah, so the curriculum's always developing. I do not have any inside information about any particular change to the curriculum um that's in the offing.
Speaker A
So I wondered how those new additions get made. Like is it the faculty like do you say, "Hey, you know, I think we really need" because my understanding is like there are faculty like George Geis and you mentioned Nachbar and I think
Speaker A
Ashley Deeks like who are like, "Wait a second, we need to add in this area." Is that kind of how it happens?
Speaker A
It's a it's a mix. I mean a lot of what leads to new course development are faculty it's very faculty led. And so like individual faculty. Like I basically thought, "Hey, it'd be cool to teach a law tech class."
Speaker A
I pitched the idea, you know, it made sense, so I'm teaching the law tech class, um and there's some of that's very organic and I think faculty do that because they have an interest or they think that there's a need. There also
Speaker A
are ways in which so like in my environmental law when I hat, me and the other folks who teach environmental law do think about, "Okay, let's make sure that there are certain course coverage." Now, the AI and law
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piece is not as well-established as environmental law. So like, you know, same thing with criminal law, of course, or any field, there is a way in which the folks who are in that field are aware of what classes are being taught
Speaker A
and kind of want to make sure that there's coverage of the major major kind classes that you should have at a major law school.
Speaker A
It's just not clear what those classes are for AI yet at all. And so every law school's figuring that out. At some point it will become more clear and I have total confidence that UVA will have coverage in those areas. And it's just a
Speaker A
question of in the and and we're experimenting right now. Um and and we're in that process of experimentation. So I think we we offer a good number of of of courses in the in the area, but likely to expand and what
Speaker A
is needed and what is elective in some sense uh will just shake out over time.
Speaker A
interesting. Like so there might be some required Yeah, or just like like corporations isn't necessarily required, but you're every law school's going to be teaching corporations.
Speaker A
Right. Well, you're we're kind of building the plane as we're flying it, right? Because as you've said and I think as is clear to listeners, like this stuff is changing all the time. So you I I know that adding curricula adding a course it
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takes a lot of, you know, a lot to get it off the ground, right? Like you do the syllabus, you get the textbooks or Right, which don't exist in this area.
Speaker A
even use textbooks? Well, we certainly use casebooks. well, but but so you're right, they don't even have them in in this area. Eventually we may have some casebooks, but a lot of what I teach in my law tech class wouldn't find
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its way into a casebook cuz it you know, casebooks are built around cases and it's not clear that that's the right modality for a class like this. So, yeah, it's all very experimental. It's exciting for that reason, but it is
Speaker A
unclear what what's what it's going to look like. Right. If somebody this is obviously a law school admissions podcast. Um, most listeners are either deciding where to go to law school right now or they're in the you know,
Speaker A
the application cycle is kind of winding down, but they're waiting to hear back from schools or they're going to apply to law school in the future.
Speaker A
Let's say you're somebody who is entering law school this fall or maybe next fall. You know, you're you're working on your applications.
Speaker A
Specifically as it relates to artificial intelligence and these tools, like what advice would you give them? Would you say like, hey, start experimenting or or what advice would you would you give someone sort of just about to start
Speaker A
their law school journey? So, I'd say um, be open. Be open to the tools, but don't you know, but that goes both ways, right? Don't be overly committed to them, but don't be overly closed to them. That they're likely to
Speaker A
be an important part of law practice, but if what you have in mind is you want to be a you know, a particular kind of lawyer with a particular kind of practice absent some very specific circumstances, that is probably going to continue to
Speaker A
exist for for a long time. Again, AI might form part of that. It might you know, um, reduce the time it takes to write a brief or do legal research or whatever but the the the core of the job of being a litigator
Speaker A
or a transactional attorney or providing counseling and regulatory advice or you know, the lots of different things that lawyers do um, will probably be the same or it'll be recognizable. And the same is the wrong word. It'll be recognizable.
Speaker A
There will be new kinds of opportunities that did not exist before. Mhm. And I think it would be is good for people to be open-minded to those, but you know, it's not like oh, I'm applying for law school. That means either I have
Speaker A
to be super into tech and because it's going to my job is going to be like AI applied to law and the old-fashioned like, you know, standing up before a court and giving an argument to a jury or a judge, that's not going to exist
Speaker A
anymore. Or provided counsel to, you know, a major company when it does a merger, that's still going to exist, too. But also there will be interesting opportunities at the intersection of technology and legal practice. And so, I think it's, you know, kind of fun and
Speaker A
exciting to contemplate that as well. And so, again, it's a kind of an openness both to the more traditional paths and to some of the newer paths that might open up.
Speaker A
It's so interesting because you mentioned, you know, it might make it easier to write a brief and you also mentioned law practice will be recognizable to what it what it has been. I'm I'm reflecting on my time in big law, which
Speaker A
was about 7 years, and like we had this thing called Docs Open, which was just basically a shared database of the whole firm and, you know, anytime I had to write a brief, I would go to Docs Open and that's
Speaker A
literally what it existed for and you would be able to pull a brief from either your same practice group or different practice group or partner who was, you know, very well respected or whatever. And like kind of copy the
Speaker A
[laughter] So, it's not totally different from that. We were not reinventing the wheel even in 2008.
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certainly wouldn't do that with a 100-page contract. Absolutely. It's all it's boilerplate. A lot of stuff is boilerplate. And that's why again, it all comes back to, I feel, the human element is going to matter more than ever.
Speaker A
Right. And the human element has multiple parts to it, right? So, that could be the human interactions, but it could also be the judgment that's applied, right? So, yes, you have the 100-page, you know, you know, debt agreement, or you have the brief, you
Speaker A
know, you need to know what what matches and what doesn't match. It's context-specific, and there's a lot of one-off kind of characteristics of deals or certainly legal argumentation. And so, that is going to be there. So, now you'll get the briefs, and in the past
Speaker A
you would have copy and pasted, or, you know, started working on it. And now, maybe you upload it into a large language model, and you start working with a prompt, and then, you know, it's on the right-hand side is the is the
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document as it's evolving. On the left-hand side, you're kind of talking to the model, and then, you know, you get it in shape, and then you take that, and then you start working in and that's your raw material. You start editing,
Speaker A
and you know, whatever. It's a different process. Does it look, you know, so radically different than what we're doing today or even 10 years ago? I mean, maybe what it does is it kind of moves people up the value chain
Speaker A
a little bit. So, maybe that's more like what a partner would be doing in the past if working with an associate to do drafts that aren't perfect, but are good enough to like mark up, go back. And And
Speaker A
now, it's a little bit faster, you know, maybe there's uh that's what the associate's doing, and then a a cleaner version goes up to the partner, and then the partner's, you know, overseeing more stuff because they're doing less of that. You know,
Speaker A
who knows how it actually works out. But, um but again, is it fundamentally like unrecognizable? Unrecognizable would be like if there's no lawyers.
Speaker A
Like, if everything's happening at at the computers. Well, then at the end of the day, like lawyers are advocates, and it's really hard to advocate as a non-human, I feel. Right? Like, if you're, you know, in immigration law or
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family law, you know, the person-to-person understanding and connection and empathy, I feel, as you said, I don't see that going anywhere anytime soon. I hope not. And one thing you reminded me of what's um our Dean of Career Services
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said at a meeting the other day, you know, people who were worried about the first-year associate, you know, going away. Well, you can't have a fifth-year associate without a first-year associate. And you can't have a partner without a fifth,
Speaker A
you know, so you can't just become partner from law school. Everyone just goes into second-year associates.
Speaker A
Right. Right. Right. Which I don't know too many people in big law who would say, "Oh, that's a terrible thing." Right. Right.
Speaker A
If you go in you know, at the higher including at the higher wage by the way because you're more productive.
Speaker A
Wow, chill. And you're not doing the same task because those are and so you're you compress the learning period more, you know. Now, that having said, you know, that might mean that law school the the the interface but the handoff, right,
Speaker A
between law schools and you know, the next stage of your career, whether that be a firm or in government or an NGO, there might be different expectations about what what students have and don't have at that handoff point, right? That
Speaker A
that could change. Yeah. Absolutely. The you know, I don't want the message [laughter] that people take away that there is not there are not changes on the horizon. I think there are tons of changes on the horizon.
Speaker A
Um that we need to um that we need to be very careful about navigating. And so and that's one of them. Maybe you know, um students will be expected to know a little bit more of one thing and
Speaker A
something else is a little bit less important. Right. And you know, and then and the market's going to tell us what it wants.
Speaker A
I asked you earlier um what your biggest fear concern about AI is. Do you have I I mean I think I have a sense for based on how our conversation, but is there one thing that gives you the most hope and optimism?
Speaker A
What's what I think the most uh the most value. I mean, part of it is I just think that this technology like a lot of human accomplishments are just kind of marvels in their own right.
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This is amazing that we have been able to produce this thing um through human ingenuity.
Speaker A
That's true. So, that is the the thing that I try to you know, keep my eyes on it some sense.
Speaker A
Um, in terms of like social yeah, I would say and with respect to law I think there are lots of potential upsides that we can imagine. So, one is democratizing access to legal services.
Speaker A
There's a ton of unmet demand for legal services and that could change or be improved in some sense through this technology. I think consistency um, in how the government operates, improvement improvements um, in efficiency and how um, we have to be
Speaker A
careful about some of this stuff, but in how the government operates could be a very important and real improvement. Um, so those would be two, but they're big.
Speaker A
They're important. Yeah, those are. And I like what you said about the I think there's this is one of the biggest misconceptions.
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You said there's a huge unmet need for legal services, but all you hear people say is there's too many lawyers. I think people who say that have never needed a lawyer before because it's actually quite difficult to get access and to get
Speaker A
what you need in terms of affordability, in terms of just where do you even begin? So, I think that's that's a really great point.
Speaker A
I mean, I think yeah, the idea that there's too many lawyers is a is a funny one. I think if people want to complain about lawyers, they should say that lawyers are too expensive.
Speaker A
Yeah. It's too hard to get access to lawyers. You don't get the lawyers that you need when you need them.
Speaker A
Mhm. That I think is a is a much bigger issue than there being too many lawyers.
Speaker A
Yeah, but I mean, you could imagine a world now where like, you know, legal services or legal aid or pro bono attorneys like have free resources now that they can better utilize for their clients.
Speaker A
And this is the distributional thing. When we you got back to is like what are the what are the concerns? It's it's you know, we it we even within law, we can take this technology and we can use
Speaker A
it in such a way that we have ever more sophisticated contracts between humongous corporations and we have ever more complex battles in family court between super rich people.
Speaker A
Or we could use the technology to ensure that there's broad access to legal services that, you know, people can when they go to housing court, when you know, in the just the the vast family situations, the vast day-to-day needs that are not met um for
Speaker A
legal services right now, we can make sure that people have access to those. But that is a political question about the distribution of wealth and the distribution of access um and not something that the technology can ever figure out for us.
Speaker A
Right. I feel like we could do an entire part two just on that. Um is there anything before we go that we have not covered that you want to make sure people know?
Speaker A
Um we've covered a lot of ground. I mean, I again, I'm pretty optimistic um but it's an optimism that is definitely combined with a recognition that there's a lot of change on the horizon. And so I think just being open to that change,
Speaker A
trying to be excited about it, recognizing the potential while also recognizing the risk is for me the posture that at least I've adopted.
Speaker A
This is by far the most optimistic I've ever felt [laughter] about AI and hearing from you sort of an expert in the area makes me doubly, you know, hopeful. So I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for coming.
Speaker A
Yeah, it's a pleasure to be here. This has [music] been Admissible with me, Dean Natalie Blazer at the University of Virginia School of Law.
Speaker A
The next episode of Admissible will be out soon. In the meantime, you can follow the show on Instagram at @admissiblepodcast.
Speaker A
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