Speaker A
And we back with another episode of the Producer Royalty podcast. And we're here today with my guy TK. TK, what's up, man?
Deep dive into music publishing for producers with expert TK, covering royalties, publishers, PROs, and maximizing income streams.
Key Takeaways
- Publishing is the core income source and retirement fund for producers and songwriters.
- Registering with a PRO is the first step, but partnering with a publisher ensures full royalty collection worldwide.
- The size, technology, and global relationships of a publisher greatly affect royalty recovery.
- Education and active management of publishing rights are essential for maximizing earnings.
- Music publishing involves complex systems and relationships that require ongoing attention and expertise.
Summary
- Discussion on the importance of music publishing as the foundation of a producer's career and income.
- Explanation of publishing rights as the composition behind a song, crucial for royalties and long-term income.
- Overview of Performance Rights Organizations (PROs) like BMI, ASCAP, PRS, and their role in royalty collection.
- Insight into why signing with a publisher or subpublisher is important beyond just registering with a PRO.
- Differences between small independent publishers and major publishers in terms of technology, relationships, and global royalty collection.
- How publishers manage relationships with various collection societies worldwide to maximize royalty collection.
- Challenges and intricacies involved in registering publishing rights and resolving related issues.
- The significance of education for producers and songwriters to understand and navigate the business side effectively.
- Importance of managing publishing works actively and the role of managers in ensuring proper registration and royalty collection.
- Discussion on neighboring rights and other less understood revenue streams in the music industry.
Chapters
- 00:00Introduction and Podcast Overview
- 02:15Publishing as a Foundation for Producers
- 04:11Registering with PROs and Importance of Publishers
- 06:30Publisher Relationships and Global Royalty Collection
- 08:57Publishing Registration Challenges and Solutions
- 15:19Managing Publishing Works and Industry Insights
- 21:47Education and Business Strategy for Producers
- 26:12Neighboring Rights and Additional Revenue Streams
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
Good to meet you in person, bro. I already know this is going to be one of my favorite conversations because I love talking to people on the business side who are able to not only have a really in-depth understanding of the
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business, which, you know, a lot of lawyers or people on the business side do, but also able to communicate that to creatives as well.
Speaker A
So, you're like the perfect intersection of that. So, I know this is going to be a ton of value. And, you know, like me, you love to educate people. So, yeah, let's
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just dig right into it. So, I know a lot of your podcast, you—this is the best podcast to learn about the business side of being a producer. So, I'm not as focused on the story. You've
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talked about your story a lot. I want to focus and just freaking dig in on some of these concepts, man. That's partly why. So, let's get into it. So, yeah, I know you've touched a lot of
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everything. You've touched on the publishing side, the management side, the touring type side, the content side, education, all of it. I'm going to start with publishing and just start talking about that because I think that with producers, that's the
Speaker A
foundation of their career a lot of times. So, yeah, let's start talking about some publishing. So, where should we start? What are some things top of mind for you on the publishing side?
Speaker A
Don't know where to start, man. I guess I think for people that don't know about publishing that it's a very intricate part of the business. And I feel like it's something that you need to hear
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over and over as many times as possible. And even until now, sometimes I just be learning new stuff. But really and truly, it is the base of an artist or songwriter or producer's income. It's basically like their retirement fund in
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it because it's the composition right before you get a record. It's the composition, like the elements that make the song, and that's the most important part of the music. Do you know what I mean? That's what goes on to be
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sampled if it's a great song, it's great melodies on it, do you know what I mean? Great production. So, yeah, like I think publishing is super important, and I think it's an entry level for people that don't even
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make music, like in terms of being an artist, but you could just be a songwriter and you could be cleaning up.
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Do you know what I mean? If you're just getting in the booth, you're working with different artists and you're just getting your publishing registered.
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Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And there's a big opportunity, and I'm starting to see with the education that's going out, I'm starting to see a lot more people wanting to be songwriters. They don't want to be an artist. They want to be
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songwriters. And as producers, you are a songwriter. Like that is like, and that's what a lot of people don't understand. Understand?
Speaker A
Yep. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. So, yeah, let's talk about publishing and let's talk about all right, the foundation of it. You're a producer and you start getting a little bit of motion. You start hearing your
Speaker A
friends are talking about, yeah, like I just, you know, you got publishing royalties out there. You would be—am I good? What about B Stars Publishing? You with B Stars Publishing? No, I'm not with B Stars Publishing. Should I
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sign up? Yeah, you should sign up with B Stars Publishing. B Stars Publishing is great. I'm just an example. You know, a lot of people wonder and they ask me when they're first getting started, do I need a publisher? Do I
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need a publisher to collect all my publishing royalties? When should I sign with a publisher? What are some of the things that you mention when somebody asks like, "Why can't I just register with PRS or BMI?" If you don't
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know, PRS is the UK's version of it. So, I would say straight off the cuff, if you've made a song and it's coming out, you've got one song out at least, just register with PRS or your local society,
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your PRO, performance rights organization. So, if you don't know, across the world, you have PROs. Every single country. Look at it as like embassies for music. So you've got the UK embassy PRS, you've got the American embassies, BMI, your ASCAPs, you go to
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Australia, you got your APRA and whatnot. That's your first entry point into that publishing mod. So this is my passport. I am a musician.
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I'm an artist. I'm a songwriter, and this is like, yeah, this is my passport in it.
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And there's no way around that. No way around that. Like you need to have the first base of security of your ownership of a song. And once you pass that stage, then it's like, okay, cool.
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They're not collecting all of the revenue. Do you know what I mean? They're collecting a base amount of the revenue, but you actually need a publisher or a subpublisher that can, that has all these different relationships with different societies
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across the world, and they can make sure that it can dig in and claw back every single penny. And all publishers do the same thing in it. They all do the same thing. But I think where you get
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the difference in what they do for you is based on one, how big they are.
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The technology is super important, and again, the offices and the relationships that they have across the board because I won't mention names of some publishers, but there's some that they only really
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collect really well in Europe or they only collect really well, for example, in the UK. But then once you go outside of Europe or whatever, like yeah, they ain't claiming that much. You could have a really big song and it could be
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doing well in multiple other countries across different continents, but it's not being collected properly.
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So you're missing out on loads of crumbs that's on the table. And if that don't get collected, it goes into the black box.
Speaker A
Yep. For sure. You had mentioned relationships. So like, yeah, so publishers will collect, they'll register you with all the collection societies around the world ideally and get that money collected. PRS is only one of the collection societies of the many, you
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know. Where does the relationships come into play? Like, what's the difference between signing to a Joe Mo publisher who is one guy in a room that you know you're his only client. He takes you very seriously
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and like he knows about all the societies. He'll just, he'll take the time to register you with all the societies versus working with a major publisher who has relationships and maybe systems like, where how does the relationships come into play?
Speaker A
So relationships really come into play in terms of it's not like a relationship like me and you but it's more of an organizational relationship. So they can see, for example, this small publisher self-publisher has been building for a
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while and now they're administrating maybe like 100,000 works. They need to really solidify their systems to make sure that they're doing the best that they can do for these clients and they can see that and they're looking at it
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like, oh yeah, that's revenue too. So obviously I would say the relationship is based on the volume and obviously the quality of the works. Are these songs streaming well? But I think in the grand scheme of things if you
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have 500,000 works and they're all making 10, I mean it's a lot of money. So it's like they look at like how these subpublishers are, how their systems are in place. This is someone that we can build with and work with over the
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long, long term. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And obviously from that different subpublishers would have different deals with different PROs across the world.
Speaker A
They might have access to different parts of their technology and systems. Not everyone gets the s
Speaker A
Yeah. So, um, yeah, that's that's that's the big level talk in it. See, I'm not there yet, but CEOs of bigger publishing companies, they're focused on like those partnerships with other publishers that will like really maximize early. Yeah.
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Um I often say I want to know what you think about this. Um I often say cuz you really work on the publishing side.
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You're hands-on ensuring look at the looking at the registrations and ensuring everything is correct. You've noticed the difference between like good publishers, what they're actually doing and what the registrations look like and what the I look at the contracts. I see
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if I can maximize the contracts and make sure that the contracts are as in line as possible with what it should be. I'm not looking at the actual registrations.
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So my question to you is what is how first of all, how can a producer even know that their publishing is being registered correctly and that they're actually being paid the money that they owed. I think first and
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foremost is just going on the the pro websites and typing in the name of the song or putting in your IPI or your CA number which is again like your passport number for music. Once you punch that in
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get a list of all your works that's actually registered. So it's also good for you as a producer to have your own like Google Sheets document that you keep all your works have that registered the splits that you agreed uh prior the
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works coming out and then you can just literally match that up. Do you know what I mean? Or I would or just register yourself. Do you know what I mean? like as you but then again obviously if you
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have a publisher then they're going to do it but you can always go and check and then be like oh like shoot why isn't this like being why is why can't I see this work or maybe you do see the work
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but then there's only one writer's name on there two people's writers name uh two writers names on there that you don't recognize you know what I mean um but then again that's what a good publisher is going to be having a team
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that are looking constantly ly at work or you have maybe a general query where you're saying like oh I was expecting a bit more in my roy statement like what's going on and then they're able to check and be
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like okay cool do you know realize that this needs to be resent to CWR let's get that patented and then obviously all right cool sorted and yeah it's like it's like it's really like house cleaning man like cuz you have to
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constantly keep hoovering and making [ __ ] like you can't just rely I'm signed to a publisher They're a good publisher.
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They're going to do a good job. Like I think that's where a lot of producers go wrong.
Speaker A
The only time that they're going to do a good job, bro, is if you have music that's doing credible, great numbers, then you get put in that priority. Do you know what I mean? And I see it in it. I see it.
Speaker A
It's understandable, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, uh, you know, we got connected through my my partner Daniel Zapata, who, you know, he, uh, he's got started in the publishing space pretty recently, and like I've like his care and dedication. He's partnered with Do
Speaker A
you remember who he's partnered with? Yeah. Um I forgot his name, but Nine's manager.
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Okay. Yeah. Um but I mean the publisher that he's partnered with. Oh, right. Ditto.
Speaker A
Yeah. Ditto. Yeah. We work with them on a DRO. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, Ditto is the is are they technically a subpublisher or is that a how does that work?
Speaker A
I guess kind of like a it's a like a joy venture partnership in a way, right? So they partner together and Ditto is the one that actually handles for the most from my understanding. Correct me if I'm wrong. Um actually, you know, Daniel
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Zapata will collect all of the information related to the catalog. Make sure that he has all the splits registered, ideally the producer agreements. They'll put it on a spreadsheet, take that information, then give it to Ditto and allow Ditto to
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handle registrations around the entire world or however it goes. Then Daniel Zapata will look at those registrations afterwards and confirm that everything is being handled very diligently and efficiently and correctly. He's doing a better job than I've ever seen anybody
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do ever with that. I swear to God. Um and I'm seeing the value of him like but at the same time like he's still getting like he just got started in the space and you know um it's not a it's not a
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billion dollar company yet. So he he cares about everybody. Exactly. he because he cares about everybody and he wants to make sure everybody's doing it like um everybody's songs is getting registered properly. Then I see people sign to a big publishing company. This
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is all preface for I said this is what I tell people all the time um is a lot of times you're better being a smaller publisher's biggest client than a bigger publisher smallest client. Agreed. Um because you might get that care that
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you're getting from a Daniel Zabata versus if you're worth Warner Chapel and you're making $100,000 a year. That could be life-changing money to you, but Warner Chapel that's not [ __ ] to them.
Speaker A
Grand scheme of things, it's not yet. So 100%. Yeah. To transition to a question to you. Um is Yeah. Is that Have you seen that kind of being the case? Would you uh kind of agree with that? Is there
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more that asterisk you want to put on that? 150% agree with that, man. because obviously I've worked with um or worked with clients that we've signed or done deals with like major publishing companies and you see the difference in
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it. I think the only difference is where it could really work is if you have a really strong ANR on your side.
Speaker A
Um if you have a ANR on your side and they don't leave the company and whatnot and they're really like rooting for you, championing for you, then you will get looked after. But again, it's down to the relationships in it.
Speaker A
Um people treat people based on how much they like them. So I think that's that's super important man. Super important.
Speaker A
What goes into fixing like one, what are some issues that goes into or what are some issues that arise from registering publishing and how do those issues wind up getting resolved?
Speaker A
Love this question, man. Love this question. So first and foremost, man, like it's so important to spell your name correctly, man. Like that's a big one, bro. like just include like all the names that you normally use and try to keep that consistent. So from
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when you start you got a middle name like let's just say your name's Jack Dawson Terry make sure that you try to keep it Jack Dawson Terry across all the works but every time that you registering do you know what I mean? Um,
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yeah, because so many times like you might see people register as they might put Jack D or Jack D Terry or do you know what I mean?
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Why does that cause an issue if like let's say their IPI number is the same?
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Does that cause an issue still or sometimes not people people don't always have people's IPI numbers? Do you know what I mean? So they're just doing things quickly and they just want to punch in the names of whatever they and
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sometimes you see a lot of ANRs when they know that they need to get a track registered really quickly cuz they just found out a song's coming out tomorrow or something.
Speaker A
They'll just go on Spotify and find a song that they know that this producer is probably produced and then they'll just take that name and then punch it in happens a lot.
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Um so let's say that that issue happens. The ANR inputs the wrong uh name. they pull the wrong IPI number and they register that split. Um, how does that get resolved then?
Speaker A
So that's down to someone spotting it, right? So again and it depends on the publishing company and what teams they have in place in it. So for me for example, obviously I work in publishing alongside everything else I do and one
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of my roles is like revenue optimization, activity tracking. So I'm tracking works and like if we get like a query raised from client management or whatever it is um they would basically say oh so and so is saying like their
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royalties aren't coming in as what they expected or how come yeah my name's not in this work whatever and once it's raised then it can get checked so I think as much as you're leaving it again like we discussed earlier you can leave
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it to ANRS and publishing companies but I think you actively have to also manage your work. Um we'll have a manager that checks it. We just make sure that when the track comes out like it's it's done properly. Um another issue that I
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definitely see is another one man. Um another one is oh for example I was going to give an example like so even a producer that I manage um he's got the same name. So another thing is you could
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have the same name as another producer. So like JB he's got the same name as J5.
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They both got an A and they both called John Fermenta. Do you know what I mean?
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And because when they registered one of Jay Hus's works, he actually got registered to JB and he was like saw his statement. He's like, "Bro, like this is Yeah.
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This is a lot." Like, and then we figured out it's like, "Oh, yeah." Like it's saying that he produced one of Jay House's songs.
Speaker A
Oh, so he got paid a lot extra from Exactly. Yeah. But because we knew their team and we knew people connected, so we were able to just literally just say, "Oh, yo, like this needs to get changed, isn't it?" It's actually J5. It's not
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JB. Do you know what I mean? But in some instances, there's probably a lot of people that are claiming on other people's works.
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Yeah. Do you know what I mean? How do you fix that if your money goes to somebody else that's not supposed to have it? I haven't stepped into that too much. So, I know it's a tough thing to
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handle. So, sometimes when it gets paid out, it's just like it's not worth litigating. What are you going to do for it? Right? Like I know from but when it's a small amount of money a,000 5,000 it's like nobody you're not
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going to sue them over that. It's not worth it. It was Yeah. So it's not Yeah.
Speaker A
You just got to take the L. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Damn. So I you mentioned Daniel Zapata told me about this role. Was the first time I ever heard about it. You said uh revenue optimization at the at the at the publisher.
Speaker A
I'd never heard about that. Is that something that you've seen at publishers before? So basically with our team uh because it's so intricate. So our team's based up of like two different teams if that makes sense and together combined it's
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like you got insights and then you got activity tracking. So together combined to revenue optimization cuz insights is one part of the team and then uh yeah activity tracking activity tracking and all rights administration because as much as checking making sure that works
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are registered correctly. It's also about if we've got a bunch of works coming in how can we make sure that we're extracting every single penny as possible. So an example would be got a catalog come in. There's a lot of
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big works in there. But then sometimes there's more than one ISRC. So we're calling it like ISRC enrichment. So one song could have like multiple ISRC's.
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How does that happen? Um so that happens if you got Yeah. remixes or different versions of the songs.
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Even if it's like a sample, how how do you how do the publisher handle that?
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Like let's say my song gets pretty sampled very deliberately like that Junior Troy song.
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Personally, bro, I think a lot of publishers don't fix that, but that's something that we're doing really well. Um, and we're making it like a priority to do that.
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So, like if we get a large amount of works coming from a client that's doing well, we're going to make sure that we find every single ISRC. So, we make sure that every single penny is going to get
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claimed. And also once they come in on that on boarding, it's like you know that that's been registered and anything from the jump has been fixed. Do you know what I mean? So going on, it's going to be managed easily because
Speaker A
you know that nothing's really going to change on it. That makes sense. Yeah. And this I I think about this a lot. So what's your honest perspective on from a publishers's perspective?
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I'm a producer and I have a song I I'm generating $20,000 a year in royalties.
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I have one song that's generating 5,000 a year in royalties. That is a lot to me.
Speaker A
Mhm. There's an issue with the registration. All the royalties freeze and my publisher only has 20% on it. Maybe let's say they have 10% on $5,000. So, um, they're only going to get All right, hold on.
Speaker A
Let's say I'm making $5,000 a year from this song. There's an issue with it. It goes into freeze. My publisher has 20% on it. That means they're only getting $1,000 a year from it. It's going to take maybe 10 hours to fix this, which
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equates to a very low wage of time. Like, what makes a publisher take that seriously?
Speaker A
Love for the clients, man. Love for the clients and and and I guess client care, client duty, you know what I mean? And reputation.
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Yeah. Values. And I think you only see those kind of values really um come to surface in the independent sector.
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Yeah. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? Whereas like I look at like obviously nothing against majors and stuff in it.
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Still work with them, still like to do deals. Makes sense. But it's just the same as like got a chain supermarket and then you've got like your local supermarket. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker A
Yeah. One's about scale and profit for shareholders. Another one's just about growth and how can we do the best possible job. Do you know what I mean?
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But it's it's also hard for different companies to be able to do that as you scale. Do you know what I mean? Because got to keep making that revenue in it.
Speaker A
So yeah. What goes into like what are some of the systems that publishers have built that allow them to stay on top of these errors? Like are there automatic flags in some way that like when there's an issue like how does that work?
Speaker A
Yeah, man. I think it's it's tech like tech teams. um starting to see a lot of like engineers getting roles at like labels, publishing companies because everything needs to be efficient. Do you know what I mean? Um you need to be able
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to spot issues quicker to to do your um to do your job to do your job better or provide the value that you said that you can provide. You know what I mean? Um, and obviously if you look at the the the
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the era that we're in of music, there's I think it's like maybe I think it's gone up maybe 150,000 songs a day is coming out. Do you know what I mean? So it's like how do you manage this? How do you keep on
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top of this volume? Do you know what I mean? So I think yeah, that's that's the main thing. Tech systems, dashboards, using uh PowerBI and all of that stuff important. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker A
Yeah. Uh what a super common issue in the producer community too is like when songs are there's no split sheet and there's no producer agreement. So the the splits aren't registered. How how have you seen um what if you're a
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producer that has a lot of cuts that do not have a split sheet or no producer agreement? Do you think there's certain publishers that they should work with?
Speaker A
Because a lot of publishers won't register your songs unless you have something. That's true.
Speaker A
So what what do you have to say about that? Um, could you like rephrase that?
Speaker A
Yeah, like uh I I guess um certain producers [ __ ] themselves because they sign to a producer they sign to a publisher that won't register any of their songs because there's no split sheet or they need a fully executed
Speaker A
split sheet when they only have the partially executed and the artists don't really sign. So, it's like I I but some producers uh they sign to a certain publisher that is able to do that. Um, I mean, maybe there's a great perspective.
Speaker A
Like, I know Song Trust got a lot of lawsuits because they were registering songs that they weren't, you know, owed money from. So, I guess I'm just thinking like, um, I don't know. It's an issue. And I just wonder, you know,
Speaker A
I think it's never I'm never going to get around that, man. Do you know why?
Speaker A
Cuz so many different types of writers, isn't it? Like, there's writers that just coming into the game and they're 16, 17 year old. They don't see it as like this mad business. Like if people actually do like the intricacies behind
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the music industry like it's a fullon like machine like and it's boring work. It's very boring work. I think people don't understand that. I think people just see the music videos and the award shows and people standing in front
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taking pictures and that. But it's it's really not that. There's a lot of work that has to go behind the scenes. A lot of Yeah.
Speaker A
like Yeah. A lot of faceless people that you don't see. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker A
Yeah. Hell yeah. I just look at emails and and documents all day. Yeah. The name says freaking Drake on it, but like I mean it's still a document and it's the same [ __ ] over and over again. Email
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thread. So yeah, you got to love it. What do you love the most about the music industry?
Speaker A
Music industry, bro. I think for me, man, it's different parts. I think like people, I think it's just if it weren't for music, bro, I wouldn't have been able to meet so many different people from just different walks of life.
Speaker A
Yeah. Um, and just different countries, bro. Do you know what I mean? Wouldn't been able to travel. Um, and yeah, you get to see the world in a different light when you get to have those different conversations and you realize
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that we're all kind of the same and we're just dealing with things in different ways. And it's like everyone has to adapt to the environments that they're from and every environment does things in different ways. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker A
But you can also learn something to to um to add to your own workflow, I guess, if you want to call it that. Um, and then apart from that, man, I think on the the putting on my manager hat and
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whatnot, I think it's just being able to build careers and build success stories and be able to say that, "Yeah, I was a part of that. Oh, I saw that early." Like, I bought the dip. Do you know what
Speaker A
I mean? So, yeah, I hear that. That's how I am too with music. It's like when I first got started in it, um, my biggest focus was I love the the uh I used to always say it feels like a game every day. It's
Speaker A
like a people game. It's like every day something comes across your plate and you're you have to figure out how you can you not necessarily use but I guess in a sense use people um to figure out how to solve this problem. It's like I
Speaker A
hey I know TK he's really good at this thing and we can work together to solve this thing and it's it's just such a a kind of a people relationship game and you know some people don't like that
Speaker A
some people love that. I personally like that. I love that. Um you know what I mean? I think it gives you a chance to show your value in it like and like people don't get this man like I find a I don't know
Speaker A
about yourself in it but like a lot of people in the music game entertainment space it's like they've got like a take take take mentality but it's really about like what can you give because if you can give something of value it's an
Speaker A
exchange and it's value exchange so if you can give something of value then most likely that person is going to be able to give you something of value back. I mean, to next. And I think there's never like really bad deals and
Speaker A
whatnot. It's just about creating win-win situations. And I think to create win-win situations, you have to actually really try to understand people in a sense and kind of figure out, cool, what are they trying to do?
Speaker A
What do they want to get? It's like a real puzzle. How can we make that happen here? Do you know what I mean?
Speaker A
Yeah. There's so much things just move so like so fast too that like there's just so much opportunity. Like I I think that that's my that's the thing I would also say too is like I just love in
Speaker A
music like things are changing and like oh that could be better and nobody nobody's fixing that yet. Like you could just be like all right cool I'm going to do it and like because there's so much new [ __ ] all the time.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. Um with publish Yeah. I want to ask this as well too. So a lot of producers when they're coming up they want to ask when's the right time to sign a publishing deal.
Speaker A
Yeah. Um, I want to ask you about when's the right time to sign an admin deal, but also maybe a co-publishing deal, too. Like, if you're a producer that wants to take the big co-publishing deal route, I want to get as big of an
Speaker A
advance as possible. That's what I want to do. Do you sign an admin deal first or do you not sign one first?
Speaker A
Oh, that's a good question, man. And there's no one answer. Like, it all depends on a couple things. One, where you at in your journey. Like, what you in it for and what you in it for. Do you know what
Speaker A
I mean? Like some people they're just in it like I'm trying to make money. I'm trying to make a butt and that's it. So then yeah, you might sign early but that's every deal you do is going to
Speaker A
come with cons unfortunately. But it's like pardon me. Whoops. What are you willing to give away? Do you know what I mean? And what are you trying to gain and is it worth it? Do you know what I mean? So for me,
Speaker A
like if you're trying to be in the game for the long term, this is my only advice, bro. And that is you start off, you sign with your pro, you sign with a subpublisher, and you just register the works yourself and
Speaker A
build it up. Just build up your catalog, man. Build up your catalog cuz again, with anything, the more you have, the more le leverage that you have, the more options that you have. Imagine if you only did 10 songs and then obviously
Speaker A
like maybe one flies off the handle and you're getting offered like big money. Cool. They're taking all those 10 songs, giving you a fair advance and then you're stuck in your deal for 3 years.
Speaker A
And then also once you leave that deal, your music's being retained for like another 15. So once you leave that, you're going to have to start again. And if you ain't recouped on that, you ain't seeing another penny.
Speaker A
You know what I mean? And you see a lot of like producers, artists throw their toys out the pram. See if the American viewers kind of phrasing it. Yeah.
Speaker A
Yeah. But like throwing your toys out the pram saying, "Oh, like, oh, I'm not getting paid. I'm stuck in my deal." Yeah.
Speaker A
It's not that, bro. You just didn't think. But think about it like this. If you built up said like, "You know what?
Speaker A
I'm not going to look at any deals until I get to 100 songs in my catalog." Yeah. Now, we're talking about options because someone could come along and I'll offer you like 200k and you could be like, "Okay, cool. You really want to
Speaker A
sign me? I'm going to do I'll take 200k, but let me I'm only going to give you 50 songs and then I'll give you another bunch of songs if I stay in a steel flight, but we're only going to do
Speaker A
this for two years." And then you could keep a retention period on that for like 10 years on that. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker A
Yeah. Now you've got more options, but then now you got the other 50 songs, but you're still keeping independently and you're still getting paid out your royalties on that. You still got things at the right time or when it
Speaker A
makes sense. Or you could just say, do you know what? I'm going to make this conscious decision and I want to give away all these 100 songs. let me get a million pounds and I'm happy to make some music within this deal, but I'm
Speaker A
going to make sure that I utilize this money to build a studio, maybe make some other stuff in the background and that.
Speaker A
So, once I come out, I know exactly what I'm doing. I've I can build I built my relationships. I'm using this major label, for example, major publishing company to get me in a room with writers and artists that I might not have gotten
Speaker A
in the room with without them. Do you know what I mean? So, it's you got to be strategic. You got to look at different companies. You got to look at it like, okay, cool.
Speaker A
Like, how can this actually benefit me? Not from a greedy standpoint, but an elevation standpoint. Do you know what I mean? That's how you got to look at it.
Speaker A
So, yeah. One of the I feel like one of the biggest issues with uh publishing and trying to find the best situation for you is valuing your catalog. And for me, even as a lawyer at this point, it's
Speaker A
like I don't really look at the data when I see a number. It's just more of a feel. I've seen this producer and this producer and this producer got 200,000 and you're bigger than him, so you should probably get more than that. And
Speaker A
I haven't looked at the data like that. Um, and that's how most people Do you have any suggestions for people who um, you know, want to get a cop deal and they get an offer for seeing if is this
Speaker A
a good deal? People always say, "Oh, if you sign a publishing deal, then you're they're going to take the majority of them. They see you as this valuable." Like, you know what I mean?
Speaker A
It's a hard question. It's It is a hard question, man. But again, bro, it just comes down to you got to know where you're trying to go, bro. Like, if you don't know where you're trying to go, then you don't know
Speaker A
if something's a good deal or not, and you're going to listen to everyone say this and say that, and you're not going to be happy at the end of it. So, I think you just got to be really
Speaker A
conscious and know like where you're trying to go. But, I think education is the most important part, man. Because education is what's going to give you confidence in making decisions, you know what I mean? like watching podcasts like
Speaker A
so much more information now like where you can hear from people and hear from their mistakes which can you I mean you watch it once keep a couple notes you're like okay cool I remember like I heard this on the produce royalty podcast or I
Speaker A
heard this on I don't know earn your leisure or something like that and it's like okay cool I know what I'm going to do you know what I mean and also just look past the smoker mirrors and look at
Speaker A
different producers and actually ask questions like why Why? Why? Why is he so big, but he's not really looking like maybe he's got money or something like that or do you know what I mean? Like why is this happening? You got to just really
Speaker A
try really study and look at like the things that aren't being answered in interviews. Like just kind That's how I I found the lane for producer royalty.
Speaker A
It was just looking at like this lawyer is 28 years old. It's Carl folks. So if you're watching this, Carl, shout out you. And I was like what is he doing that worked well for him? like he's and
Speaker A
I I just noticed a few things and I was like, you know what? I noticed a few things and uh you know um should I say it? Nah, I'll say it there. I noticed a few things and I was like I I just kind
Speaker A
of want to create those things and lean into them as much as possible. Um, and that's kind of where Producer Royalty came from. And you know, so I think that's probably the same thing that could apply for a lot of things is just
Speaker A
like, yeah, like find people that you really look up to and and if they got to where you want to be, even if you don't understand why they did what they did, there's probably it probably worked. You know what I mean? So if Yeah. If the big
Speaker A
producer you look up to, but yeah. Yeah. I want to talk about um anything I want to say about publishing before I switch.
Speaker A
Uh, what about Yeah, I want to talk about this. Um, if you are a producer who's a little bit more entrepreneurial and you want to start your own publishing entity, you see that happening. Do you have any suggestions or tips for making that
Speaker A
happen? Maybe different types of deals you could enter into or partnerships or, you know, things to look for. Um, yeah, man. I think if you're going to I think that's the smartest thing to do, bro. Like, it's like how can you
Speaker A
multiply yourself and there's no better way to do it than trying to start a business and help other people solve their problems. Um, so me personally, if I was like setting up a publishing company, production business and I'll be
Speaker A
looking at the game and looking at what I do and how can I split this up into five different revenue streams. Do you know what I mean? So for a lot of producers, I always say like using something like B Stars makes a lot of
Speaker A
sense. YouTube is free. Like you could be making money on YouTube. Like the next Drake is in his bedroom looking for a beat. And where's the first place? The marketplace he's going to go to, it's going to go to YouTube. Every single
Speaker A
artist that goes on your channel and they're listening to your beats, whatever, it's counting as views. That's a revenue stream. You could be creating, say you build up your YouTube page, got quite a few subscribers. You could be
Speaker A
now taking other producers on say, you know what, you can showcase your piece on my YouTube channel. Do you know what I mean? and I can help you get it and then it's like I can help you with
Speaker A
the administration and that and you set up like you have an admin guy and you've got your relationship with the main publisher and now you're helping collect for other writers and it's helping you as well. Do you know what I mean? That's another avenue
Speaker A
stream. What would that deal look like if I'm a produ or could look like or you've seen it look like um you suggest it look like if you're a producer that you know got some motion and you just
Speaker A
you're just like I said entrepreneurial and and you want to you don't want to register works yourself but you want to start you know signing other people to a publishing deal.
Speaker A
Yeah. So um on a contract man probably say like 10%. As in like if you sign somebody at 20% then you'll split it 50/50 with the publisher. You're saying or because you got Yeah. Because you got to remember as well that the chain isn't
Speaker A
it? The chain. So every deal is different behind the curtains because for example you've got this producer who okay cool. He set up his publishing entity now. Got the new producer that's coming through his channel. But then this producer has to have his
Speaker A
relationship like we spoke about in the earlier with whoever's helping collect for him and then they've got their relationships with the different societies across the world. So that pie is being split on the back end which a lot of people don't really get. So when
Speaker A
this producer is doing his business, he's got to also look at it from an ethical standpoint and think about, okay, cool. If this is my cut or this is they're doing 20 uh 80 with me, and then what am I doing with the producer now?
Speaker A
Cuz am I going to eat in? Am I going to say 20, which means it's 30? Does that make sense?
Speaker A
Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah, man. So it's Yeah. Yeah. That's I I just shot a video before this and I spent a good amount of times talking about like, hey, a manager might give you a publishing deal that
Speaker A
says 9010 and you'd be like, hey [ __ ] this manager is giving me a 9010. Warner Chapel's giving me a 8020. I'm going to go with the 9010.
Speaker A
But that does not mean you're going to make way more money from it. You could a lot of times make a lot less because that manager has a a JV or whatever it looks like with another publisher who's
Speaker A
taking 20% and then the manager is taking 10% from what's left after that. So maybe you're better off just going directly to the publisher.
Speaker A
Exactly, bro. But then again, it's all about the relationships and understanding which different entities like the strengths of different entities and it's like, oh, is this actually worth it? Do you know what I mean? So you go into a shop and you might see,
Speaker A
I don't know, three different ketchups or uh three different pairs of trainers and it's like, okay, cool. I could get these Jordans or But do you know what?
Speaker A
I've heard ass kicks are better. I do a lot of running. It's like what makes sense.
Speaker A
Yeah. For you and what can they do for you, which is going to really help in terms of where you're trying to go. Like I mean, do they have multiple studios that I can always have access to to work out of?
Speaker A
That could be a big plus for some people. Do you know what I mean? It's like, do you want fries with that? Or if you don't want fries, do you want hash browns or something? Do you know what I mean?
Speaker A
That's a good point. Yeah. Yeah. because a lot of I know a couple good management companies that they do they give you know they have that relationship where maybe it's not as uh not transparent as that but they have a relationship with
Speaker A
maybe Sony ATV and they sign people to publishing deals and yeah the producer probably could go directly to Sony ATV but but the fact that they went to the manager now the manager is incentivized to actually make this uh catalog more
Speaker A
valuable so yes there's an extra hand in it but like yeah like you said like they're actually um you know you're signed somebody that actually cares and wants to give you more. One thing I wanted to talk about before we pivot and
Speaker A
you know I'm still learning a lot about and or I still don't know that much about actually um is neighboring rights because in in in the United States like I can't lie, bro. I can't you see that one there?
Speaker A
Yeah. It's like it's so murky, bro. Like obviously like so we got neighboring rights for like our label in it. Um and obviously our organization's PPL.
Speaker A
Mhm. It's just if you look at like what you have to fill in and that it's so long like so we just work with a agency um and they just do it for us. They collect us and they've got like
Speaker A
technology where if a song comes out they can automatically extract all the information from the metadata and then we just know that it's registered.
Speaker A
You know what I mean? For sure. And that's kind of like I haven't seen that many com like uh because I think uh neighboring rights is how would you describe the neighboring rights royalty? I think we could touch
Speaker A
on is like the royalty exists, right? I would call it publishing for records. Uhhuh.
Speaker A
That's how I look at publishing for records. Mhm. Yeah. And I think it gets generated. Um, it doesn't get there's no neighboring rights except for kind of sound exchange in the United States because we don't pay like if music's played on the radio,
Speaker A
we don't pay the master recording owners. So, record labels aren't being paid directly for that. In the UK, they are. Yeah.
Speaker A
Um, in most pretty much every country except like the United States, China, Iran, and like other places, um, they are getting paid that. Um, so since in the United States, uh, since we don't pay other people, they don't pay us. So
Speaker A
neighboring rights isn't really that big of a deal in the United States, but it is bigger for you guys, I think. Right.
Speaker A
So, but then I guess it would be bigger for artists that do get played outside those territories. So then they're looking for someone that can collect on that, right?
Speaker A
Yeah. I don't know. I don't think in the US they can though. And I, bro, nobody understands neighboring rights really like that.
Speaker A
Depends on the label that they're signed to, isn't it? Cuz if they're signed to a label in the States, then Yeah. Okay, cool. Then if they start sign if they're American artists but they're signed to a label in UK then maybe they might be
Speaker A
eligible for that. Uhhuh. So what who's a company that you've seen people work with on the neighboring right side? Like if I have like Yeah. I don't know if you want to shout them out but so in the UK it's PPL.
Speaker A
Yeah. And um who we work with? There's not like another company like um that will so PPL will register your uh neighboring rights in other places aside from like England. Um, yeah. So, they you'd have to do it yourself. I think
Speaker A
only if you're like a massive artist and you might have a special deal where they would do the admin for you, but then you've got also publishers that are doing neighboring rights. Do you know what I mean? Like,
Speaker A
yeah. Yep. Um, so they'll include neighboring rights even though it's not a publishing type of royalty in your deal.
Speaker A
It's still a type of Yeah. So that but that would be a separate type of agreement. But yeah, neighbor rights is definitely something that's very very intricate.
Speaker A
Yeah. Yeah. It's fuzzy. [ __ ] we ran out of time, man. We're going to have to do a part two for sure, bro.
Speaker A
Uh definitely, bro. Damn, man. Yeah, this is this turned into a publishing master class, so it's probably going to be titled something like that. But hey, this is an amazing interview, man. Thank you so much for your time.
Speaker A
Thank you, bro. Appreciate it. Any last words? Where can we find you? Uh yeah, so you can find me on Instagram, uh TK the Great. So TK T h a great underscore. Um and then you can find our uh label management company um
Speaker A
Finesse Forever. That's Finesse and Forever is spelled with E Va. Fire. Thanks so much, man.
Speaker A
Love, bro. Looking forward toward Sweet.
Topics:music publishingproducer royaltiessongwriter incomeperformance rights organizationBMIASCAPPRSmusic businesspublishing administrationroyalty collection
