Speaker B
In two previous HBO programs, Richard Kuklinski, known as the Iceman, who is serving multiple life sentences, answered many questions about his brutal, cold-blooded killings, solving many cases. But the unanswered question remains, why?
An in-depth HBO interview with Richard Kuklinski, the Iceman, exploring his violent past and psychological profile with Dr. Park Dietz.
Key Takeaways
- Kuklinski's violence was driven by deep psychological issues and a lack of remorse.
- His childhood environment, including abuse from parents, contributed significantly to his criminal behavior.
- Despite his violent acts, Kuklinski did not derive pleasure or excitement from hurting others.
- The interviews highlight the complexity of understanding a serial killer's mindset.
- Kuklinski's detailed confessions help solve many cold cases but leave the question of 'why' largely unanswered.
Summary
- Richard Kuklinski, known as the Iceman, claims to have killed over 200 people, describing his killings as cold and remorseless.
- Dr. Park Dietz, a psychiatrist and FBI consultant, conducted extensive interviews with Kuklinski to understand his criminal mind.
- Kuklinski recounts his preference for close-range shootings and the psychological impact of looking victims in the eye as they died.
- He reveals a lack of emotional response to violence, finding no pleasure or adrenaline rush from hurting others.
- From childhood, Kuklinski exhibited pathological behavior, including cruelty to animals and extreme violence.
- His father, Stanley, was a violent influence, inflicting severe beatings regardless of alcohol use.
- Kuklinski's mother was also harsh, using physical punishment like hitting with a broomstick.
- He developed a deep resentment toward anyone who disrespected or humiliated him, sometimes stalking victims for days.
- Kuklinski describes specific violent acts, including strangling a man with a rope taken from a clothesline.
- The interviews provide insight into the psychological and environmental factors shaping Kuklinski's violent behavior.
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
I was a person who able to hurt somebody at any given time with no remorse.
Speaker A
And you could do it over and over again without it bothering them.
Speaker B
Did you think of yourself as an assassin?
Speaker A
Assassin? Sounds so exotic. I was just a murderer.
Speaker B
In July of 2002, HBO invited Dr. Park Dietz, a world-renowned psychiatrist and consultant to the FBI, to search for an answer to the mystery of the twisted criminal mind of Richard Kuklinski.
Speaker B
With the Iceman's cooperation, Dr. Dietz spent 13 hours over four days talking with him to try to understand this human killing machine.
Speaker B
So if I understand you correctly, you're positive you killed more than 50 people, and you think you probably killed more than 100 people?
Speaker A
Definitely.
Speaker B
Sure of that one?
Speaker A
Definitely.
Speaker B
But not sure it's more than 200?
Speaker A
I wouldn't say definitely to that.
Speaker B
Maybe yes, maybe no?
Speaker A
I would say...
Speaker A
It's not less than 200 people.
Speaker B
You killed more than 200 people.
Speaker A
Sure.
Speaker A
Yep.
Speaker A
I killed basically more 100 people when I was a young man. Before I even knew anybody, too much.
Speaker A
One part of my life I killed people for nothing, just for somebody to look at me wrong, I would kill them. Stab him, shoot him.
Speaker B
You tended to shoot people up close and personal?
Speaker A
Definitely.
Speaker A
I wanted to tell him just before they left. I wanted to say goodbye.
Speaker B
Did you like to look them in the eye?
Speaker A
I wanted them looking straight at me.
Speaker A
This was a long way away. The distance we are now, we were closer.
Speaker B
What did you want him to think as they died?
Speaker A
Just see my pretty face.
Speaker A
I take it to them. The last thing they ever saw was me. And if they carry that glimpse to eternity, infinity or whatever it is, they're going to be thinking of me all that time.
Speaker A
I'd be looking in their eyes. I would see the blankness come over it. I'd watch them die. I just didn't shoot him and walk away.
Speaker A
I saw the surprise, the shock. The blank. They're gone.
Speaker A
And all I saw was my reflection. But that's it.
Speaker B
Did you have a favorite place you'd like to shoot?
Speaker A
A favorite?
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
Well, most of the time if you're up close, you shoot them under the chin. You would shoot them.
Speaker A
Should I got one time in his uh Adam's apple. See how long it would take him to die.
Speaker B
How long did it take?
Speaker A
A few minutes.
Speaker A
He drowned actually. He didn't.
Speaker B
Drowned in his blood?
Speaker A
Mhm.
Speaker A
I was with somebody else. We got a 50 dollar bit. I lost.
Speaker B
You thought it'd go faster, huh?
Speaker A
Yes.
Speaker B
Do you know what an adrenaline rush feels like?
Speaker A
Oh yeah.
Speaker B
What will give you one?
Speaker A
Sex. It's the only one. I don't really get anything from hitting anybody, hurting anybody, shooting anybody.
Speaker A
Does nothing for me.
Speaker A
The only thing that bring gives me pleasure of sex.
Speaker B
Well, that's a different kind of pleasure than what an adrenaline rush.
Speaker A
I guess.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
If I would have beat somebody up, it would do nothing for me.
Speaker A
If I knocked them down and stepped over them, that's why you see it doesn't bother me. I don't care. I heard anybody, it does nothing for me.
Speaker B
But you can never get a feeling out of it.
Speaker A
I never got one.
Speaker A
It was disappointing.
Speaker A
That's when I figured I must be crazy. Because I figured some of should have some kind of a feeling, something.
Speaker B
The Iceman's sessions with Dr. Dietz reveal that even at the age of 10, Richard Kuklinski was already showing signs of pathological behavior.
Speaker B
How were you with animals at that age?
Speaker A
Deadly.
Speaker A
I used to tie two cats' tails together.
Speaker A
I drove over clothesline and watched them rip each other apart.
Speaker B
How long does it take?
Speaker A
Not long.
Speaker B
Did they both die?
Speaker A
I don't know. I never stood around to see the final thing.
Speaker A
I would say eventually they both died because they were both pretty well tore up.
Speaker B
It's got to be noisy.
Speaker A
It was quite noisy.
Speaker B
What else would you do with cats?
Speaker A
Well,
Speaker A
we had the incinerator in the projects there.
Speaker A
Should I throw a cat in the incinerator?
Speaker A
Then I threw a book of matches in there. And through the door, I watched the fire get bigger and bigger and his cat was running around trying to get away. Eventually, the fire got too big for him and he didn't run anymore.
Speaker B
You only did one cat?
Speaker A
No.
Speaker A
That was a past time.
Speaker B
Did they all behave the same way?
Speaker A
Most of them. One almost got out the door. He almost jumped back up, came out the door, I threw him in. Because that's where I was looking and he almost came back out.
Speaker B
How about dogs?
Speaker A
I've kicked them off the roof.
Speaker A
Tied him to a back of a bus.
Speaker A
Then they'd just be dragged once they got tired.
Speaker A
Never saw the end of those things, I just did it.
Speaker B
Do you remember any feelings associated with it?
Speaker A
I don't think so.
Speaker A
I might got a maybe a little excitement.
Speaker A
Most of the time though after that I felt disgust that I did it.
Speaker A
Because I didn't really do anything that took any kind of a challenge.
Speaker A
I just did it on some kind of helpless.
Speaker A
Nothing, they couldn't stand up to me anyway.
Speaker B
And you'd be alone when you did this?
Speaker A
Yes.
Speaker B
Did you say you were bored?
Speaker A
Mhm.
Speaker B
It's that mostly what it was about fighting the boredom?
Speaker A
Probably.
Speaker A
When as you had nothing to do so look for some break the monotony.
Speaker B
Richard's father Stanley was the adult who had the most impact on his childhood.
Speaker B
It was from him that Kuklinski learned how effective violence could be.
Speaker B
What's the worst beating you ever took from your old man?
Speaker A
I don't think there's much difference in any of them. They were all pretty bad.
Speaker A
He uh left his mark on me pretty much.
Speaker B
And he did most of that before you were what, 11?
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker A
I was young.
Speaker B
And was that worse when he was drinking?
Speaker A
With Stanley, it didn't really matter whether he was drinking or he wasn't drinking. He was a nasty son of a bitch and he always will be to the day he died.
Speaker A
And even when he died, he was a nasty son of a gun.
Speaker B
Did you go to his funeral?
Speaker A
No, I didn't.
Speaker B
Was there one?
Speaker A
Yes.
Speaker A
I didn't like him in life, why would I want to go see him in death?
Speaker A
I was glad he was dead.
Speaker B
How about your mom? How was she?
Speaker A
Over the years I got to dislike my mother a great deal.
Speaker A
But now that I have more time to think about it, she was just a victim of her own life.
Speaker B
As a kid, how did you see her?
Speaker A
Hateful.
Speaker A
Disliked her a great deal.
Speaker A
She didn't believe in uh sparing the rod either.
Speaker A
I mean, she used to hit me with a broomstick.
Speaker A
If I did something wrong.
Speaker B
Where would she hit you?
Speaker A
Wherever it hit.
Speaker B
As Kuklinski grew older, he swore that no one would ever again treat him with disrespect.
Speaker B
He held unreasonable grudges and would sometimes stalk his victims for days.
Speaker B
How much would somebody have to humiliate you before you'd become obsessed with killing them?
Speaker A
It would it would be the degree he he humiliated me.
Speaker A
If it were not much and it would be the time. It would be how my attitude was.
Speaker A
If I was jpy or edgy, he wouldn't take much.
Speaker A
If I was passive, then he he might get away with it.
Speaker A
But no one really knew.
Speaker A
I took a guy down one time just following him around.
Speaker A
He was with a few people.
Speaker A
Now as they went to the bar, this person decided he couldn't wait to get inside to urinate. He never did.
Speaker A
Everybody else went in.
Speaker A
He stayed outside to urinate.
Speaker A
He urinated.
Speaker A
Uh he went comfortably anyway.
Speaker A
He had an empty bladder.
Speaker A
But I actually strangled him.
Speaker B
From behind, I assume.
Speaker A
Definitely.
Speaker A
I actually did it in a way that's maybe maybe this is original.
Speaker A
maybe not, I don't know, but I.
Speaker A
I put the rope around his neck, twisted it.
Speaker A
And threw him over my shoulder.
Speaker A
And held him there.
Speaker A
So actually he I was the tree.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
And he eventually just stopped kicking.
Speaker A
I let it loose at one end, he slid down to the ground.
Speaker A
I put him over by the garbage and left.
Speaker B
Had you brought a length of rope with you?
Speaker A
No.
Speaker A
Actually I.
Speaker A
This guy um these people had a um uh around and back at a bar, they must have lived upstairs. There was a apartment upstairs and they had one of these things where they had rope across this thing and they had a couple of these lines going across this way.
Speaker A
And that's what I took.
Speaker B
Talking about clothes line?
Speaker A
Yeah.
Speaker B
Now what did this guy done to you?
Speaker A
I didn't like him. He just made me mad some some reason or other.
Speaker A
For me to track him and wait for him, I was mad at him for something.
Speaker B
Do you remember what his body did while you were hanging him?
Speaker A
Yeah, it was twitching and kicking.
Speaker B
How long did it take?
Speaker A
I don't really know.
Speaker A
Didn't look at my watch, I really couldn't say, you know.
Speaker A
I kept him a while.
Speaker A
Even after we stopped, I kept him a while just to make sure.
Speaker B
Did you have another weapon with you?
Speaker A
Yes.
Speaker B
But this was quieter.
Speaker A
It was more personal.
Speaker A
I actually felt him die.
Speaker B
Did you like that?
Speaker A
Didn't do anything.
Speaker A
But I I mean I did feel him die, I felt him go limp.
Speaker B
And you got your relief?
Speaker A
Yes.
Speaker A
Basically, I didn't have any more pressure, no more tension. It was it was almost like a cure. Unbelievable.
Speaker B
Kuklinski's early years were plagued with a hair trigger temper. If he had a problem, he solved it the only way he knew how.
Speaker A
I was driving in Georgia one time.
Speaker A
And we were riding down the road and there was a couple of vans running around and they were whooping and hollering in there. I guess they were having a good old time and maybe drinking and what not. They decided, I guess it was interesting to play with a guy from New Jersey and they started to click clack and with their vans and push me here and push me there off the road and they were running in and out and what their problem was, I really don't know. Never did know.
Speaker A
But uh it came to a point where I got extremely mad about that and uh but that was silly of me because I was away from home. I had no backing. I had no problem. I only had one weapon which was in the trunk, which was a 357 with a hair trigger.
Speaker A
So I stopped the car and got out, opened the trunk.
Speaker A
I had the release in the went in the trunk and took the 357.
Speaker A
And just stood there.
Speaker A
Now apparently their eyesight must have been too good because I don't think I'd walk up on a guy with a 357 standing by his side. But these fellas did.
Speaker A
Foolish mistake.
Speaker A
They all died.
Speaker B
Do you think that what they did was a capital offense?
Speaker A
What they did, you mean playing with me? They could have killed me.
Speaker A
Well, they ran me off the road and I died.
Speaker B
Bad behavior, no argument. Reckless and endangerment.
Speaker B
Reckless driving, host of bad things.
Speaker B
Is it a capital offense they committed against you?
Speaker A
Apparently.
Speaker A
I did kill him.
Speaker A
So to me it must have been. Because when I had come to that point, and that point, that is the last point.
Speaker A
They come to I don't back off once I go forward.
Speaker A
Once I go forward and I take a gun, I do not back off.
Speaker A
I didn't know how many they had, I didn't know what they had. They could have had guns. They could have had anything.
Speaker A
They wanted to play with me. I didn't want to play.
Speaker A
So,
Speaker A
we didn't play no more.
Speaker A
And I would have taken whatever came.
Speaker A
You almost made me mad.
Speaker B
I know.
Speaker B
What made you mad about that?
Speaker A
I don't know, but you almost did.
Speaker B
Can you figure out what it is?
Speaker A
No.
Speaker A
I think it must have been something you said.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
Obviously, but I don't know what it was.
Speaker B
Could it be that I was challenging you and it sounded judgmental?
Speaker A
Could be.
Speaker A
Yeah, it could be. Cuz you've got me annoyed with you now.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker A
That's the truth.
Speaker B
How mad are you?
Speaker A
I bet.
Speaker A
Pretty.
Speaker A
I feel a little flushed.
Speaker A
So that's means that I've reached the point in my life that I'm a little annoyed.
Speaker B
What would you like to do?
Speaker A
Doesn't matter.
Speaker A
I don't think it's gone to the point that I'm actually going to do anything stupid.
Speaker A
Just uh curious to myself. Why? Why it happened? I don't know why it happened.
Speaker A
I'm I'm actually almost glad it did happen because you had a chance to see something.
Speaker A
But I don't know why it's.
Speaker B
Did you feel I was criticizing you?
Speaker A
Yes.
Speaker B
Is that what did it?
Speaker A
I think so.
Speaker B
Who used to criticize you the most?
Speaker A
Of course my father.
Speaker B
Yeah.
Speaker B
The issues about your behavior. I think there are really a couple things to say.
Speaker B
The things that I'm most sure of based on the information you've told me are that your principle problem has been a warp in your personality.
Speaker B
And we classify personality according to different types. And there are two types of personality features that you have a great deal of.
Speaker B
The first of them's called anti-social personality disorder.
Speaker B
What it refers to behaviorally is someone who does not have a conscience, does not have remorse, does not feel a sense of guilt about most of the bad things they do is impulsive and violent. Uh the typical things we see before age 15 in people who earn that label are cruelty toward animals.
Speaker B
Cruelty toward people. And an awfully interesting part of that condition is that uh we've got a little bit of knowledge of what causes it and where it comes from.
Speaker B
And that's where there's some good news and some bad news.
Speaker B
The bad news is that part of where that comes from is hereditary. That there's a genetic basis to being a fearless person. And you've told me about how rarely you have any experience that even begins to resemble nervousness or fear.
Speaker B
It takes extreme things to make you have a sense of impending danger. Normal people get fearful about a wide variety of things frequently and would be uh besides themselves with the kinds of experiences that you had on a weekly basis.
Speaker B
You couldn't have done the things you did if you were capable of ordinary fear. But the fact that you're born with a genetic predisposition to fearlessness doesn't mean that it's inevitable for you to become a criminal. Because some people who have that genetic predisposition to fearlessness become pro-social risk takers.
Speaker B
They do things like uh drive race cars, test fly planes, fighter pilots, bomb disposal technicians. Now those are all jobs where it helps to have a lot of fearlessness. And in fact, some people in law enforcement are brave and have that same capacity to be fearless.
Speaker B
And the difference between the people who grow up to be risk taking good guys with white hats and the people who grow up to be risk taking bad guys with a long long wrap sheet and a lot of crimes has to do with how their parents raised them.
Speaker B
If you raise a kid with love and kindness and affection most of the time, you've got a good shot at their growing up to be decent, caring, loving human beings and treating their own kids well.
Speaker B
But if you raise a kid the way Stanley raised you with no love, no affection, constant abuse, beatings for no reason, all you teach is hatred. You make it impossible for that child to grow up and form strong attachments and loving caring relationships or to be willing to risk themselves to protect the world.
Speaker B
So I think you got to be this kind of anti-social psychopathic person, both by getting Stanley's genes and having Stanley's parenting and your mother's cold stand-offish way of treating you.
Speaker B
In other words, that part of you was both born and made. But your own kids and your own grandchildren will turn out according to how you and Barbara raised them. Despite whatever genetic influence there may be.
Speaker B
The other thing that I think is true about you is another personality style where I think it's fair to say that you've got the features of what we call a paranoid personality disorder. The general rule for someone who is paranoid is to trust no one, let no one get too close to you.
Speaker B
And to never forgive anyone who does you wrong. If somebody criticizes them, they're quick to respond with anger or to counter attack.
Speaker B
If somebody humiliates them, then they must have revenge.
Speaker B
About 1 to 2% of the population has the paranoid personality disorder. About 2 to 3% of males and 1% of females have the anti-social personality disorder.
Speaker B
And then there's a smaller group that has both and it was having both that allows you to have this career that you've had and that allowed you to profit from your capacity for a completely emotionless, fearless, remorseless hit.
Speaker B
By being free of any conscience and also free of friends and of people who could bring you down, you were able to have a very long run as a successful contract killer. It's quite unusual.
Speaker B
And you wouldn't have been able to do that had you not had both of those personality flaws in your line of work that turned out to be major advantages, kind of preconditions for a successful career.
Speaker B
I appreciate that you're taking the time and explaining this to me.
Speaker A
I am probably the loneliest person in the world.
Speaker A
Because I have nothing I care for.
Speaker A
And I can't make any friends to have any kind of a relationship or so I've lost everything.
Speaker A
I've lost everything I ever cared for.
Speaker A
Everything I ever wanted. It's down the toilet.
Speaker A
Since there is no love in my life, I must have something to replace it, so I replace it with hate.
Speaker A
Constant hate. Constant reminded to hate.
Speaker A
And what's that do for you? Keeps my left foot going in front of my right foot.
Speaker A
Keeps me moving.
Speaker A
Without it, I would probably just plop down some place and have no reason to continue.
Speaker B
Is that all you've got left is hate?
Speaker A
It's all I've got left.
Speaker A
Everything that I ever cared for is gone. Everything I ever liked is gone, everything I didn't meant to me is gone.
Speaker A
So hate.
Speaker B
That's all you started with too.
Speaker A
Then I've come full circle. It's time for me to die.
Topics:Richard KuklinskiThe Icemanserial killerHBO interviewDr. Park Dietzcriminal psychologyFBI consultantchildhood abuseviolent behaviorpsychopath
