Speaker A
Always Talk to Al Jazeera.
Kazakhstan's President Tokayev discusses balancing relations with Russia, China, and the West amid shifting global dynamics and reform efforts.
Key Takeaways
- Kazakhstan aims to balance relations with Russia, China, and the West without compromising its sovereignty or reform agenda.
- The country prioritizes diversification of trade and transport routes but continues to rely heavily on Russian infrastructure for oil exports.
- Middle powers like Kazakhstan are seen as crucial players in upholding multilateralism and reforming global institutions like the UN.
- Kazakhstan remains pragmatic about international organizations such as BRICS, opting for observer status while assessing effectiveness.
- Despite external geopolitical pressures, Kazakhstan pursues a steady reform process focused on justice, inclusion, and transparency.
Summary
- Kazakhstan is strategically located between Russia and China, playing a key role in Eurasian stability and China's Belt and Road Initiative.
- President Kassym-Jomart Tokayev emphasizes ongoing reforms in Kazakhstan despite external challenges like COVID-19 and the Ukraine war.
- Kazakhstan pursues a balanced foreign policy, maintaining strong ties with Russia and China while diversifying trade routes such as the Middle Corridor.
- The CPC pipeline through Russia remains the primary route for Kazakhstan's oil exports, with no immediate plans to reduce reliance on it.
- Tokayev supports multilateralism and believes middle powers like Kazakhstan should have a greater role in global peace and security.
- He acknowledges challenges in the UN Security Council and advocates for UN reforms to reflect the current global landscape.
- Kazakhstan holds observer status in BRICS but remains cautious about full membership due to concerns over the organization's structure and effectiveness.
- The President highlights Kazakhstan's pragmatic approach to foreign relations, balancing partnerships without restructuring its core foreign policy.
- The Astana International Forum serves as a platform to showcase Kazakhstan's role and ambitions in global diplomacy and economic integration.
- Tokayev stresses the importance of national goals alongside maintaining stability in Central Asia amid geopolitical tensions.
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker B
Talks between two giants, Russia and China, and rich in oil, gas and rare elements.
Speaker B
Kazakhstan sits at the crossroads of global power.
Speaker B
Landlocked in the heart of Central Asia, it shares the world's longest continuous land border with Russia.
Speaker B
And plays a central role in China's Belt and Road ambitions.
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As the war in Ukraine shifting geopolitical dynamics test and even redefine global alliances.
Speaker B
Does Kazakhstan find itself under growing pressure to pick sides?
Speaker B
Or can it really balance strong relations with China and Russia with deepening ties with the West?
Speaker B
I'm Sami Zeidan in Astana where President Kassym-Jomart Tokayev.
Speaker B
Once a Soviet trained diplomat and UN official, has promised reform.
Speaker B
A new Kazakhstan built on justice, inclusion and transparency.
Speaker B
But three years on, is he delivering?
Speaker B
The President of Kazakhstan, Kassym-Jomart Tokayev, talks to Al Jazeera.
Speaker A
Talk to Al Jazeera.
Speaker B
President of Kazakhstan, Mr. Kassym-Jomart Tokayev.
Speaker B
Thank you so much for talking to Al Jazeera.
Speaker C
It's my pleasure to be with you.
Speaker B
Thank you.
Speaker B
So, we're here in the week in which the Astana International Forum is presenting Kazakhstan once again to the world.
Speaker B
Three years on since you unveiled the reform program, do you feel you've delivered the new Kazakhstan that you promised?
Speaker C
Yes, we are in the process, frankly speaking.
Speaker C
It's not that easy, uh, because there were so many, uh, developments outside of, uh, Kazakhstan.
Speaker C
That impacted, uh, the process of reforms.
Speaker B
COVID, the war in Ukraine.
Speaker C
Yes, absolutely.
Speaker C
And, uh, I believe that, uh, it's not that easy, uh, we must be frank.
Speaker C
We must be pragmatic.
Speaker C
But at the same time, we need to be very much bold as far as our reforms are concerned.
Speaker C
That's why I am telling my people that, uh, we should be very much firm.
Speaker C
Uh, with regard to achieving all goals that have been put in our agenda.
Speaker C
Yes, the process is still going on, but it's a very positive one.
Speaker B
Looking at your foreign relations, sir.
Speaker B
Is Kazakhstan going through a process of rethinking some of its foreign partnerships, rebalancing some of its trading relationships?
Speaker B
Like the middle corridor project in order not to be too reliant, too close on any one great power.
Speaker C
First of all, I wouldn't say so that we are making some.
Speaker C
Reforms with regard to our foreign policy.
Speaker C
Uh, because it's a very conservative, uh, phenomenon.
Speaker C
But at the same time, of course, we need to bear in mind what is happening outside of Kazakhstan.
Speaker C
Kazakhstan is a pillar of stability and security in Eurasia.
Speaker C
Particularly in Central Asia.
Speaker C
And, uh, from the very beginning, we have been pursuing the policy of, uh, making balance between big powers.
Speaker C
Our immediate neighbors.
Speaker C
But at the same time, promoting our national goals.
Speaker C
And that's why, uh, I wouldn't say that, uh, we are restructuring the whole foreign policy.
Speaker C
Uh, but, uh, you were right, uh, having mentioned, uh, the middle corridor.
Speaker C
Because, uh, for us, uh, the priority is, uh, to diversify our transportation links.
Speaker C
With the outside world.
Speaker C
And in this respect, of course, Trans-Caspian transport route.
Speaker C
Is absolutely important.
Speaker C
And, uh, as you know, we are also a great supporter of One Belt, One Road initiative.
Speaker C
Put forward by Xi Jinping.
Speaker C
Chairman of China.
Speaker C
And it's not coincidence that, uh, as early as, uh, 2013.
Speaker C
Xi Jinping announced this initiative in Astana.
Speaker C
In the capital of Kazakhstan.
Speaker B
Last year, S&P Global said that about 80% of Kazakhstan's oil flows through the CPC pipeline to Russia.
Speaker B
Is that something that you think you need to change?
Speaker B
Does it represent a strategic vulnerability for Kazakhstan?
Speaker C
We should, uh, bear in mind that, uh, Russia is a strategic partner of Kazakhstan.
Speaker C
Our immediate neighbor and ally of Kazakhstan.
Speaker C
We share the longest border with Russia in the world.
Speaker C
And of course, uh, we count on Russia as our strategic partner.
Speaker C
And we count particularly on CPC.
Speaker C
Just recently, I had a telephone conversation with President Putin.
Speaker C
And we have been talking, frankly speaking, about CPC.
Speaker C
How it's going to be used.
Speaker C
In the future.
Speaker C
And I believe that, uh, CPC will be continuously serving as a good instrument of shipping.
Speaker C
Or transporting our oil through Russia to the European market as well as beyond.
Speaker B
So you're not concerned about the impact of the war in Ukraine.
Speaker B
And what that means for your ability to to send your oil to Europe through that pipeline?
Speaker C
Yes, uh, of course, we take into account.
Speaker C
What is happening in Ukraine.
Speaker C
It's impact, I mean, the impact of military conflict between both Russia and Ukraine.
Speaker C
On our strategic plans, uh, with regard to natural resources.
Speaker C
And the export to the international market.
Speaker C
At the same time, uh, we have a strong belief, uh, in our strategic partnership with Russia.
Speaker C
But it doesn't mean that we are focusing only one transportation route.
Speaker C
That's why you were right, absolutely, mentioning other routes.
Speaker C
And, uh, Baku-Ceyhan pipeline.
Speaker C
Uh, middle corridor.
Speaker C
But, uh, practically speaking, in terms of amount of oil, which is being transported or exported abroad.
Speaker C
Still, of course, the priority is being made on CPC.
Speaker C
And should be made on CPC.
Speaker B
Right now, the Astana International Forum is underway.
Speaker B
Is it a sign that Kazakhstan believes middle powers need to play a bigger role?
Speaker B
In upholding the international multilateral system?
Speaker C
Yes, I strongly believe, uh, in multilateralism.
Speaker C
And, uh, I strongly believe that, uh, it is, uh, the so-called middle powers.
Speaker C
Should play a bigger role, uh, in safeguarding peace and security in the world.
Speaker B
Do you think, sir, that sometimes the great powers might be undermining?
Speaker B
The multilateral system, I mean, sometimes we hear rhetoric from some of the great powers.
Speaker B
Talking about America first, talking about.
Speaker B
Um, the importance of bilateral rather than multilateral mechanisms.
Speaker C
Yes, it's happening now.
Speaker C
And multilateralism is faltering.
Speaker C
You know that the Security Council of the United Nations is in deadlock.
Speaker B
Is that a threat to the world?
Speaker C
Yes, it's a big threat.
Speaker C
It's a big challenge to the world.
Speaker C
That's why I believe that, uh, middle powers like Kazakhstan should play bigger.
Speaker C
More important role in tackling and addressing major international issues.
Speaker C
And, uh, that's why Kazakhstan is strongly committed to reforming the United Nations.
Speaker C
In the beginning of United Nations history, there were only 51 states that are being considered.
Speaker C
As founding members of the United Nations.
Speaker C
Nowadays, we have 193 states.
Speaker C
We believe that all states, first of all, as you said, middle powers should join their efforts.
Speaker C
In order to make United Nations more equitable.
Speaker C
More eligible to the contemporary world.
Speaker B
So along those lines, I'm wondering, Mr. President, why then.
Speaker B
If Kazakhstan is is seeking to build this partnership with middle powers.
Speaker B
Why did Kazakhstan delay its application to join BRICS last year?
Speaker B
I think in October.
Speaker C
I'm very much grateful to those countries that supported our application.
Speaker C
To get the status of an observer in BRICS.
Speaker C
But I'm very much pragmatic.
Speaker C
And, uh, what I can see that there are no fixed structures.
Speaker C
Within BRICS.
Speaker C
No charter, no secretariat.
Speaker C
No programs and so on.
Speaker B
Are you worried that it's not an effective organization, or are you worried that Kazakhstan?
Speaker B
Might be seen as too close to some powers like China and Russia.
Speaker B
And you want to balance your relationships with the West as well.
Speaker C
First of all, it's about.
Speaker C
The supposed efficiency or effectiveness of the organization.
Speaker C
Yes, uh, there are big powers.
Speaker C
There are middle-scale powers.
Speaker C
Small powers.
Speaker C
In each international organization.
Speaker C
It does happen and it's a reality of the world.
Speaker C
But, uh, let's first of all, see whether BRICS is going to be efficient enough.
Speaker C
As a very well promoted and proclaimed international organization.
Speaker C
And that's why I said that, uh, okay, at least on the first stage.
Speaker C
We are going to be, uh, observer in BRICS.
Speaker C
And then time will show.
Speaker B
So you don't have a date in mind for when you might reactivate your application to join?
Speaker C
No, we have no such plans.
Speaker C
Uh, we have been fixed as a observer state in BRICS.
Speaker C
And I believe that it's quite enough.
Speaker B
Looking at some of your bilateral trade.
Speaker B
China is a very important trading partner for Kazakhstan.
Speaker B
I think the figures a couple of years ago spoke of 31 billion dollars in trade with China.
Speaker B
Trade with the US much smaller, but it increased in 2023 by 32%.
Speaker B
Is Kazakhstan trying to catch up to balance its trade between key trading partners and global powers?
Speaker C
First of all, I would like to mention that, uh, it is the European Union as a big international entity.
Speaker C
Is number one trade partner of Kazakhstan.
Speaker C
And last year, our trade volume reached 50 billion dollars.
Speaker C
The second one is China.
Speaker C
And our trade volume with China exceeded 45 billion dollars.
Speaker C
And the third trade partner of Kazakhstan is Russia.
Speaker C
We have trade of 27 billion dollars.
Speaker C
As to the United States, we put focus and priority on attracting investments.
Speaker C
From the United States, first of all.
Speaker C
Our trade volume is not that big.
Speaker C
Only 4 billion dollars.
Speaker C
But at the same time, we export uranium, oil and chrome.
Speaker C
To the American market.
Speaker C
And I think that, uh, it's a strategic partnership.
Speaker C
Strategic trade between both Kazakhstan and the United States.
Speaker C
Unfortunately, recently, US administration has put high tariffs on our export.
Speaker C
But we are not dramatizing this trend.
Speaker C
And I believe that this decision.
Speaker C
And I believe that it's a matter of further negotiations.
Speaker B
All right, coming to some more domestic economic issues.
Speaker B
During your tenure, GDP has expanded in in Kazakhstan around 55% between 2019 and 2024.
Speaker B
But wealth distribution is still a challenge.
Speaker B
Data from the World Inequality Database shows the wealthiest 1% still controls almost 30% of the nation's assets.
Speaker B
While 50% holds less than 5%.
Speaker B
How do you plan to reduce inequality?
Speaker B
How do you plan to speed up that distribution?
Speaker C
You were right saying that our GDP is increasing.
Speaker C
Last year, it reached 219 billion dollars.
Speaker C
And in terms of per capita, we are number one in this part of the world.
Speaker C
Our GDP is the largest one in Central Asia.
Speaker C
But of course, we are not complacent.
Speaker C
And you were right mentioning the distribution of wealth in Kazakhstan.
Speaker C
It's a matter which is concerning me as a president.
Speaker B
Has it not moved as fast as you would have liked it to have have moved?
Speaker C
Yes.
Speaker B
What what held it back?
Speaker B
What stopped you from moving as quickly as you wanted to?
Speaker C
So many negative factors outside of Kazakhstan in the very beginning of our talk.
Speaker C
We have mentioned some of them.
Speaker C
And then there are some also natural impediments.
Speaker C
And that's why I was hoping that the economic growth of Kazakhstan will reach at least 5.5% this year.
Speaker C
Uh, it's going to be so.
Speaker C
We predict that at least it will be over than 5%.
Speaker C
But it's not that ambitious that we have been looking for.
Speaker C
And, uh, that's why my government is looking for some additional sources of economic growth.
Speaker C
And, uh, as I said, uh, we have four priorities.
Speaker C
First of all, huge infrastructural projects.
Speaker C
Then digitalization and artificial intelligence.
Speaker C
And then agriculture.
Speaker C
And then transport and logistics.
Speaker C
And I believe that the goals will be reached.
Speaker C
Within my presidency, which is going to be expired in 2029.
Speaker B
You mentioned sir, by 2029.
Speaker B
You hope to grow, I think, these non-hydrocarbon sectors.
Speaker B
And right now, I think the hydrocarbon sectors, they account for over 50% of Kazakhstan's exports.
Speaker B
Do you think you can achieve a rebalance of that or achieve a situation where your non-hydrocarbon exports?
Speaker B
Are the majority by 2029?
Speaker C
Yes, hydrocarbon export, frankly speaking.
Speaker C
Still will be a majority of our trade.
Speaker C
To the international market.
Speaker C
We should be pragmatic.
Speaker C
Continuously be pragmatic.
Speaker C
And I said that, uh, Kazakhstan is going to become a non-hydrocarbon country.
Speaker C
In 2060.
Speaker C
It's quite, I think, a very much pragmatic and I would say a modest program.
Speaker C
Based on what we do have and on what we are going to have.
Speaker C
Coal in our inner or domestic energy balance.
Speaker C
Accounts for 73%.
Speaker C
We cannot give up coal.
Speaker C
Just overnight.
Speaker C
We have natural resources like oil in terms of producing uranium.
Speaker C
We are number one in the world, 40% of the world market belong to Kazakhstan.
Speaker B
Related to the IT industry, sir.
Speaker B
And the digital infrastructure, you've made progress.
Speaker B
You've established more than 20,000 kilometers of fiber optic lines.
Speaker B
You've established the Astana Hub.
Speaker B
Boosting IT exports to over 280 million dollars in 2023.
Speaker B
But there still are challenges.
Speaker B
How can you address bureaucratic hurdles to startups?
Speaker B
A shortage of specialists in some cases.
Speaker B
And low research and development spending.
Speaker C
Yes, it's also one of our problems.
Speaker C
Which is on the agenda.
Speaker C
But at the same time, we have made a big progress.
Speaker C
First of all, we have made or produced our smart computer.
Speaker C
Which has been delivered recently to Kazakhstan.
Speaker C
In close cooperation with well-known foreign companies.
Speaker C
And we are very much grateful to them.
Speaker C
Being our strategic partners in this very important case.
Speaker C
And as I said, digitalization is our priority.
Speaker C
And my dream is that Kazakhstan someday later.
Speaker C
Will become a fully digitalized country.
Speaker B
When when is the target date for that?
Speaker C
I think that it's in five years.
Speaker B
In five years.
Speaker C
In five years, it's absolutely possible.
Speaker C
And, uh, you're just been talking about bureaucracy.
Speaker C
It does exist in Kazakhstan as well as in so many countries.
Speaker C
And digitalization is one of most efficient instruments.
Speaker C
To tackle this problem.
Speaker C
Digitalization.
Speaker C
And artificial intelligence.
Speaker C
Nobody knows what will be the end of this story.
Speaker C
And in this context, I've already made a statement.
Speaker C
On the margins of the International Forum here.
Speaker C
That in the context of developing very speedy development of artificial intelligence in the world.
Speaker C
This kind of conflicts, wars between states.
Speaker C
Look very much outdated.
Speaker C
We must put focus on artificial intelligence.
Speaker C
Digitalization.
Speaker C
Put focus on developing.
Speaker C
On giving education to the younger generation.
Speaker C
Put focus in enlightening our people.
Speaker C
Bringing them forward in development.
Speaker C
But not being engaged in military conflicts.
Speaker C
Killing each other.
Speaker C
It's very much outdated.
Speaker C
It's very much primitive, I would say.
Speaker B
Since we're talking about how to address and rebalance the wealth.
Speaker B
You've made progress in dismantling some of the privileges held by the elites of the former leader, Nursultan Nazarbayev.
Speaker B
You've conducted investigations, there's been convictions for embezzlement.
Speaker B
You've recovered 1.2 billion dollars.
Speaker B
I think in 2022.
Speaker B
Sir, is there more work to be done?
Speaker B
Some critics would say some of the key institutions of the Nazarbayev network.
Speaker B
Haven't come under so much scrutiny like the Nazarbayev Fund.
Speaker B
The Hal Bank and so on.
Speaker B
What would you say to that, sir?
Speaker C
No, of course, there is a criticism of what we are doing here.
Speaker C
But we have done a lot of things, very much positive things.
Speaker C
For the benefit of our people.
Speaker C
Of our society.
Speaker C
And of course, we should acknowledge a historical role of President Nazarbayev.
Speaker C
Who came out to be the first one in our modern history.
Speaker C
Yes, there were mistakes, embezzlements, as you have said.
Speaker C
And we have been investigating and this process is going on.
Speaker C
But at the same time, I'm not going to make a mess here in Kazakhstan.
Speaker C
Uh, because it will lead to the destabilization of the situation in my country.
Speaker B
Do you look sometimes, sir, at other countries and say, we need to learn?
Speaker B
About the speed of reform, is that a real worry for you?
Speaker B
The stabilization.
Speaker C
Yes, we need first of all to take lessons.
Speaker C
What is happening in so many countries?
Speaker C
First of all, in China, in Russia.
Speaker C
In many countries.
Speaker C
And stability, inner stability is my first priority.
Speaker C
You should understand that without stability, there'll be no reforms.
Speaker C
No modernization, no transformation of our society.
Speaker B
The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, which observed the 2023 parliamentary elections.
Speaker B
Did acknowledge political reforms, amendments that you've made.
Speaker B
To increase voter choice.
Speaker B
To bring Kazakhstan closer to international standards.
Speaker B
But they say more reform is needed, particularly on some of the restrictions on freedom of assembly and campaigning.
Speaker B
The need for people to obtain or the right of Akimats, the mayors.
Speaker B
To refuse some outdoor campaigning events on a broad list of grounds.
Speaker B
Do you believe some of those restrictions need to be lifted, sir?
Speaker C
No, I don't believe so.
Speaker C
And our laws are quite democratic.
Speaker C
Kazakhstan as a whole in nature.
Speaker C
Essentially is a democratic state.
Speaker C
And we have done a lot.
Speaker C
To make it so.
Speaker C
So, I don't care about estimations made by OSCE.
Speaker C
Uh, because it's a very much biased organization.
Speaker C
Uh, but at the same time, we are committed to having close cooperation.
Speaker C
With the OSCE institutions.
Speaker C
And we are quite an active member state of this organization.
Speaker C
And we hosted the summit in 2010.
Speaker C
The last one.
Speaker C
So this organization has no summits for 15 years.
Speaker C
So we should judge from this very fact whether the OSCE is an efficient organization.
Speaker C
But once again, I don't care about those evaluations.
Speaker C
I wouldn't say that they are unbiased.
Speaker B
Okay, how about the process for registering opposition groups?
Speaker B
You've made a lot of reforms.
Speaker B
You've allowed for the first time legalized opposition parties.
Speaker B
You've set a limit on the presidential term for the first time.
Speaker B
Some of the international human rights groups like Human Rights Watch are calling for a change in the registration process.
Speaker B
That sometimes delays.
Speaker B
They give an example of, for example, Alga Kazakhstan has been rejected 24 times.
Speaker B
Does that need some reform, sir?
Speaker C
I don't believe so.
Speaker C
Because I'm promoting my own strategy.
Speaker C
Which is called law and order.
Speaker C
We have fixed our laws in full compliance with international standards.
Speaker C
I don't believe that we should follow recommendations.
Speaker C
Of human rights organizations.
Speaker C
Nowadays, we know who or which countries.
Speaker C
Have been financing them.
Speaker C
We know that there are so many cynical people.
Speaker C
Who have been working or engaged or employed in these organizations.
Speaker C
And once again, they are not unbiased.
Speaker C
They don't want to understand the historic background.
Speaker C
Political mindset of the people.
Speaker C
They just give recommendations.
Speaker C
But I won't say that all countries, including Kazakhstan.
Speaker C
Should blindly follow those recommendations.
Speaker C
First of all, we should think about our national strategies.
Speaker C
That must be properly delivered for the benefit of our countries.
Speaker C
And first of all, of my country.
Speaker C
I'm just saying as President of Kazakhstan.
Speaker B
And of course, you are doing a reform process.
Speaker B
But sir, do you think that that reform needs to widen when it comes to journalists?
Speaker B
There is there are calls by Reporters Without Borders to remove the necessity of journalists having to obtain a permit.
Speaker B
To to work in Kazakhstan.
Speaker B
Do you think that the reform process needs to look at that or at some of the laws on promotion of extremism?
Speaker B
Where human rights groups cite sometimes the use of those laws and criminal charges against journalists.
Speaker B
Against opposition figures.
Speaker B
What do you say to that, sir?
Speaker C
I think that we have close connections with all journalists.
Speaker C
Whether they represent the so-called opposition forces.
Speaker C
Or those who are supporting our strategy.
Speaker C
So our attitude is absolutely equal.
Speaker C
And then of course, I'm not saying that we have already stopped all our reforms.
Speaker C
The process of reforms is very much long, steady.
Speaker C
And Kazakhstan is a reformist country.
Speaker C
We will be continuing, continuously doing our reforms.
Speaker C
And there'll be no obstacles.
Speaker C
And my credo that we should make substantial reforms for the benefit of Kazakhstan.
Speaker C
Bearing in mind what we would like to have, say, in five years, in 10 years and so on.
Speaker C
You just mentioned one term.
Speaker C
President in Kazakhstan.
Speaker C
It's a huge reform.
Speaker C
It's a huge political reform.
Speaker B
And you're committed to respecting that yourself.
Speaker C
Yes, in 2029, I have already announced that I will step down.
Speaker C
And I will resign.
Speaker C
Because it's a demand of my people.
Speaker C
And as a personal, as a human being, I strongly believe that.
Speaker C
President of any country, first of all, of my country.
Speaker C
Is a state manager.
Speaker C
He's not a messenger of God.
Speaker C
He's a state manager who has been hired by his own people.
Speaker C
In our case, for seven years only.
Speaker B
President Kassym-Jomart Tokayev, thank you so much for talking to Al Jazeera, sir.
Speaker C
Thank you.
Topics:KazakhstanKassym-Jomart TokayevRussiaChinaBelt and Road InitiativeMiddle CorridorCPC pipelineBRICSmultilateralismAstana International Forum
