Speaker A
joining me now for an exclusive interview is Abbe Lowell.
Exclusive interview with Don Lemon's attorney Abbe Lowell on DOJ's actions against Lemon and threats to press freedom under Trump.
Key Takeaways
- The DOJ's aggressive tactics against Don Lemon represent a threat to press freedom and constitutional rights.
- Using laws like the FACE Act against journalists is a dangerous precedent.
- The Trump administration is accused of authoritarian behavior by targeting lawyers, journalists, and protesters.
- Protecting journalists is essential for democracy and public awareness of civil rights issues.
- Don Lemon's case exemplifies broader political retaliation against dissenting voices.
Summary
- Abbe Lowell, defense attorney for Don Lemon, discusses DOJ's case against Lemon related to his journalism work.
- Lemon was arrested late at night in Los Angeles while covering the Grammys, causing unnecessary fear and intimidation.
- The arrest is framed as a First Amendment violation, targeting journalists for doing their job of reporting.
- Lowell sent a legal notice to DOJ requesting proper procedure, but received no response.
- The DOJ used the FACE Act, typically protecting abortion clinic access, as a novel tactic against journalists.
- The interview highlights parallels between current US government actions and authoritarian regimes suppressing dissent.
- Lowell emphasizes the danger of undermining constitutional rights like the First and Sixth Amendments.
- The Trump administration is accused of weaponizing the DOJ against political enemies and journalists.
- The importance of journalists documenting civil rights issues is stressed, referencing the 1960s civil rights movement.
- Don Lemon is targeted partly due to his independent journalism and opposition to the Trump administration.
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
He's one of the most prominent defense attorneys in the country.
Speaker A
And he is representing Don Lemon in his case against the Trump Justice Department.
Speaker A
Abbe, we just showed um Don there, of course.
Speaker A
Everybody's been able to see him. He also did a YouTube live.
Speaker A
People may have watched.
Speaker A
But this is terrifying, no matter who you are.
Speaker A
How is Don doing? I think a lot of people at home are wondering that.
Speaker B
I think people should be.
Speaker B
I mean, no matter how solid you are and how much you've covered the news when others get this happening to them.
Speaker B
When it happens to you, it's a different event.
Speaker B
I mean, let's talk about what happened first to Don and then I'd like to talk about what it means to everybody else, okay?
Speaker B
So what happened to Don was that for 30 years he's done not just his job, it is his job like it's your job to be a journalist.
Speaker B
But that's a job that is protected by the way by something other than a contract you have with your with your network.
Speaker B
It's protected by the First Amendment of the United States Bill of Rights.
Speaker B
And so what he's done for 30 years is his job and his job is to report on what it is that you saw he was doing in Minnesota.
Speaker B
He is basically reporting sometimes video, sometimes by taking notes, what's going on around him.
Speaker B
So that's what he did.
Speaker B
Immediately, Attorney General Bondi, Assistant Attorney General of the Civil Rights Division and who knows in the White House were already tweeting, this was a crime, we're going to go to get him.
Speaker A
Mhm.
Speaker B
And so what do you do? You have to lawyer up.
Speaker B
So he and I know each other, we got together.
Speaker B
And what's the first thing I did?
Speaker B
I wrote to the Department of Justice 10 days ago and I said, I'm representing Don Lemon.
Speaker B
I understand you might be investigating him, if you're going to take any action, do it the right way.
Speaker B
You don't have to make a show of it, you don't have to make a circus of this, get in touch with me.
Speaker A
And you hear back from them?
Speaker B
I'm still waiting.
Speaker B
So, all right, what else did they do?
Speaker B
So not only did they basically attack as a crime something that you and others do that are protected by the First Amendment.
Speaker B
They didn't do it just in the way you're supposed to.
Speaker B
They wanted it to be terrifying.
Speaker B
They wanted it to be intimidating.
Speaker B
They wanted it to create fear.
Speaker B
So he lives in New York.
Speaker B
It's not Minneapolis.
Speaker B
He's going to Los Angeles to do his job, which is to cover in this case the Grammys this weekend.
Speaker B
They wait until he's in Los Angeles.
Speaker B
That's not enough.
Speaker B
They wait until 11:30 at night.
Speaker B
When he was coming back for doing what he does, in the lobby of a hotel and not one, not two, not three.
Speaker B
But the bevy of agents surround and take him away.
Speaker B
Don thought he was being mugged because he has been controversial and he actually thought some crazy people on the right might be stalking him.
Speaker A
Can I pause just for a moment?
Speaker A
Because I think it's so important for people to hear this.
Speaker A
We just showed Georgia's video.
Speaker A
How many agents surrounded him in the lobby?
Speaker B
I'm trying to count right now, but let's put it this way.
Speaker B
It's more than the one that would have been necessary to do it the right way.
Speaker B
And they're and they're uh cloaked and they're protected and they're armed.
Speaker B
This is to somebody who's not a threat, doesn't have a criminal record.
Speaker B
He's not Maduro in Venezuela that you have to snap out.
Speaker B
You basically have heard from his attorney and they don't care about any of that.
Speaker B
So they take him away.
Speaker B
And that's what happened.
Speaker B
But they didn't just take him away.
Speaker B
Remember, they didn't just stalk him in Los Angeles, they did it at 11:30 at night.
Speaker B
So they knew that he'd have to spend a night in jail.
Speaker B
For no reason whatsoever.
Speaker B
But they did that on purpose.
Speaker B
So they trail him to Los Angeles, they wait until 11 and they make sure that he has to spend a night in jail.
Speaker B
Knowing that we wouldn't be able to get in front of a judge until the next day.
Speaker B
That's what happened to Don for doing his job.
Speaker B
Now, let's talk about what it means for everybody else.
Speaker B
What it means for everybody else is that we've seen today the next step towards what you would have thought.
Speaker B
If I described what happened, you were describing what happened in pre-World War II Italy with Mussolini.
Speaker B
The first thing the Trump administration did was they attacked lawyers.
Speaker B
Then they attacked the journalists.
Speaker B
And those are the two playbook kinds of plays that authoritarian governments have done through history.
Speaker B
In order to stifle dissent.
Speaker B
And if that weren't enough.
Speaker B
Then they brought the people that are supposed to be policing and they literally killed two peaceful protesters.
Speaker B
If I described that to you.
Speaker B
Basically neutering lawyers, arresting journalists and shooting protesters.
Speaker B
You think I'd be talking about Tehran?
Speaker B
You think I'd be talking about Italy in the 1930s or 40s?
Speaker B
We're talking about the United States of America.
Speaker B
So what does it mean to everybody?
Speaker B
These are two basic rights, for example, the First Amendment.
Speaker B
When they attack the lawyers, it's the Sixth Amendment.
Speaker B
This is administration that's not just willing to trample on the Bill of Rights.
Speaker B
They're eager to do it.
Speaker B
It's a warning sign.
Speaker B
And if we can't rely on those Bill of Rights to protect you and Don and others who give us the news or lawyers who come up and defend you when you do that.
Speaker B
Then we're in a lot more trouble that the average person believes.
Speaker A
Let me ask you about one of the legal tactics they seem to be using.
Speaker A
Because it seems like what I'm hearing from you.
Speaker A
Is this is something they're trying out, we should just expect them to do it more.
Speaker A
And I I absolutely think we we should.
Speaker A
They seem to be they they reference what's called the Face Act in this indictment here.
Speaker A
Which again is 14 pages.
Speaker A
I'm not a lawyer.
Speaker A
But anybody can be out there and read it.
Speaker A
It it has until recently been used to protect people's access to abortion clinics.
Speaker A
It it feels like it's a new tactic.
Speaker A
I don't know that there's a precedent.
Speaker A
You tell me, but what do you make of them using that?
Speaker B
Well, I mean, okay.
Speaker B
What do we make of the fact that they basically use the Department of Justice not to use the word justice in its title.
Speaker B
But to go after the enemies of Donald Trump, whether it be Attorney General Tish James.
Speaker B
Whether it be Jim Comey, whether it be now going after the ballots in in Atlanta.
Speaker B
In Fulton County, Georgia.
Speaker B
This act is not supposed to be used to arrest journalists for doing their job.
Speaker B
When journalists, by the way, would be filming a civil rights march.
Speaker B
Or when journalists are basically filming or reporting on what was going on at an abortion clinic.
Speaker B
You can decide whether people protesting at those three sites should or should not happen.
Speaker B
Whether it's part of our precious right to dissent in America.
Speaker B
But what you're not supposed to do is not distinguish between people who are covering it versus not.
Speaker B
Let me put it this way.
Speaker B
Do you remember the television uh clips that we saw in the 1960s?
Speaker B
About what was happening in the South during the Civil Rights Movement.
Speaker B
One of the things that turned our country around was to be able to see it on their television screens at night.
Speaker B
When, you know, people were being sprayed with hoses and dogs were being sicked on them.
Speaker B
And places like Alabama.
Speaker B
If those journalists had been subject to what happened today, you might not have ever seen those videos.
Speaker B
And how much worse would we have been?
Speaker A
We wouldn't have.
Speaker A
And if people are deterred now, we won't see a lot of the videos we see.
Speaker A
Don is, as you well know, and I've known him a long time too, he is been a target of Trump for a long time.
Speaker A
Um he is an independent journalist.
Speaker A
So he's not working for a big major news organization.
Speaker A
He's also a prominent black journalist.
Speaker A
There are a lot of reasons, I guess, they could have decided Don was their target.
Speaker A
Why do you think they decided?
Speaker B
I think it was partially because his his lack of goodwill in this administration.
Speaker B
And we know President Trump has a lot of traits, one of which is that he does go after the last shiny object that's put in front of him.
Speaker B
And it could have been something that Don said during that protest.
Speaker B
It was a convenient thing for them to do to send their message.
Speaker B
Journalists of the United States.
Speaker B
What did they do four or five days before that?
Speaker B
They executed a search warrant on a Washington Post reporter to get evidence which would have been unheard of.
Speaker B
Even if she herself was not quote the target of their investigation.
Speaker B
There used to be rules to protect journalists who gathered news.
Speaker B
From being forced to give up their sources.
Speaker B
This is not a mistake.
Speaker B
This is not an outlider.
Speaker B
And it's not ad hoc.
Speaker B
The first thing you do is you you basically.
Speaker B
Shut down the press.
Speaker B
You shut down lawyers.
Speaker B
You shut down universities.
Speaker B
I am asking people to understand that these are not random unconnected events.
Speaker B
It is an assault on everything we are dear in America.
Speaker A
Before I let you go, uh we obviously have seen Don out there today.
Speaker A
What happens next here?
Speaker B
Well, I mean, he goes back to doing his job.
Speaker B
Which is really important because he won't back down.
Speaker B
He has said it and everybody knows Don.
Speaker B
He won't.
Speaker B
So he'll do that.
Speaker B
We have an appearance to go in Minnesota.
Speaker B
As do the others that got arrested.
Speaker B
And that is as you said, everybody should pick up that 14-page indictment.
Speaker B
And look at each of what they are accused of.
Speaker B
But in Don's case, when you do that.
Speaker B
You'll go, hmm.
Speaker B
One of the phrases, I think, if I remember in the indictment is that in the church.
Speaker B
He peppered the minister with questions.
Speaker B
Hey, Jen, I have something to tell you.
Speaker B
I think every night you pepper your guests with questions.
Speaker B
That's kind of what journalists do.
Speaker B
So we will attack this indictment based on its infringement of the First Amendment.
Speaker B
Putting aside the lack of evidence anyway.
Speaker B
And hopefully, the judicial system will start repairing what this administration tries to tear down.
Speaker A
We're going to talk to a couple of journalists who've been in exactly these circumstances.
Speaker A
About some of the accusations here that are very much doing journalism a little bit later in the show.
Speaker A
Abbe Lowell, I know you have not gotten a lot of sleep.
Speaker A
Thank you for being here.
Speaker B
Pleasure to be here and and I'm glad that people are paying attention to this now.
Topics:Don LemonAbbe LowellTrump administrationDepartment of JusticeFirst Amendmentpress freedomFACE Actjournalismcivil rightsauthoritarianism
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