"Why I QUIT working with Steven Bartlett" | Grace Andrews | Success School | E253

So

Welcome

terrifyingly big photo of my face that I can see

in

my periphery

And I'll let you know it's here for the whole chat

Yeah

We'll just keep looking that way

We'll keep looking that way

Grace, welcome to Business Mastery Live

Thank you so much, thank you for having me

I want to start with the thing that obviously most people will know you for, which is Diary of a CEO, working with Steven Bartlett

You were, I believe, was it the third hire of of Diary of a CEO

and you were there for nearly five years, is that right?

Done some good research

Oh yeah

Yeah

I was

um

so

I

joined

when

so

people

it's

funny

because

people

uh knew Steven Bartlett back in 2020

either if you lived in Manchester or if you worked in social media

I was the latter

I've born and bred in London

but I worked in social media

so I'd come across this guy called Steven on LinkedIn a few times

Um

I was progressing in sort of my freelance career

I actually studied journalism but

we don't need to go back into all of that

Um I found journalism very depressing

so I moved into social media

Um

and I saw this post go up on LinkedIn

and it was Steven Bartlett on LinkedIn and he was like

looking for a social media manager for my own brand

And I've sat there thinking

I wasn't in the market for a job

I was loving freelancing

I had these amazing clients

I was just like finally felt like I was thriving in my career

and then I saw this post and I was like

if I'm going to learn from anyone in this space, it's probably going to be this guy

So I didn't go too much about him but I just dropped the application in the same way everyone else did

And um yeah, two weeks later I was

let all my clients go

was in the office

was being told about this new podcast he wanted to start called The Diary of a CEO

Um and yeah, it was just me the producer Jack

who's still there, executive director and Steve

Do you know why you picked you?

Um

I

I don't know the reason

he didn't firstly he didn't directly hire me

he's very much was like his manager was sort of hiring at the time

And um I was extremely, extremely persistent

Once I had my eye set on that, I couldn't think about anything else

I'm someone who's like an all or nothing kind of person

And I had already sort of visualized having that role

I that was my role

that was my job

that was my next job title

So I had already mentally

almost got the job

I I think there's a lot about visualization now

and manifestation and that sort of world which there's

probably speaks a lot, you know, a lot of truth to my situation

but I didn't know about that back then

I was just writing in my journal like saying

well when I you know I am now the social media manager for Steven Bartlett

you know I hadn't even had my first interview

but I was like so mentally there

and so the I guess the visualization turned into action

where I found everyone who was possibly close to Steven Bartlett

I messaged them on LinkedIn

I messaged them again on LinkedIn

I found them on Instagram

I was so annoyingly persistent

that they kind of

one couldn't ignore me

And um

I I also I guess in some ways made their job easier

because I'd been building or as now known as a personal brand

back then was very much just my my portfolio to attract freelance clients

So I had a lot of evidence built up in my favor

So I didn't need to do too much persuasion because

they kind of could look at my Instagram and go, oh, she knows social media

She talks about it, she educates about it

because I was using that as my lead magnet to generate freelance clients

So I think there's two parts of that why I was hired

is one I was aggressively persistent

and it's something I talk about when I I speak with a lot of university students

and grads and like that sort of world

and I say like that one email is going to get lost in the thousands

like send 10 emails

but go above and beyond, do something different, turn up, send something

like just do something to stand out

And so I always understood that principle and then I guess the other part of it was

I I had the digital evidence sitting there

So I didn't really have to do too much selling

it already had done the selling for me

you know, through I guess what is my personal brand now

There's so much we could all learn from that

And

I mean that that persistence because I think a lot of people feel like they fear being annoying or whatever

So I think there's a lot that can inspire us there

So Diary of a CEO has now gone on to be one of the biggest podcasts in the world

The second

The second biggest

And you were literally there from pretty much the beginning

What can you share with the audience today about why, because so many people have podcasts

Like what is it that you did differently that helped that become the brand that it is today?

For us it was never a podcast, for us it was always going to be the biggest show in the world

And I think to my point as I was kind of speaking to earlier

I in the same way I knew that that role was going to be mine

we never had a shadow of doubt in our mind that this show, which we always treated as a show

which I can get on to

was was always going to be the biggest because we were going to obsess over it more than any other team in the world could ever

We were going to sweat the smallest of details to the point where other people would look at us and think we were completely insane

And I think that's something you can take in any industry, in anywhere you work

If if you are going to put in more reps than anyone else

the compounding effect of that is probably that you're going to come out near the top as long as you don't quit

You know

because what actually happens isn't that people are more talented

or people just have that like spark or whatever

it's actually that they just put in the reps more and more and more than anybody else

But no one sees that, right

So like everyone looks at the Diary of a CEO now and they see it's this big show

They want to replicate the trailers

They want to have the success and the the scale and the achievements that they've they've now had

But they don't see those sort of first three years, or first two years where barely anyone was listening

Like really, truly barely anyone was listening

Ross was

That over

He was

That that was our concentrated audience

Yeah

Manchester and worked in the world was our sweet spot

Um and it's funny because I think it's that classic iceberg model, isn't it

where everyone sees that tip and they want to replicate the tip and they're obsessed with replicating the tip

I mean it's amazing since I've left how many people are like, can you come and do what you did at the Diary of a CEO

and copy and paste it onto ours

I was like, unfortunately it's never going to work like that

because we had those two years of about also a full-time team at that point of about seven of us

working just on this one show

So you know that scale again, it's very hard to replicate

when I go and work with podcasts who only have the host and maybe a freelance producer

it's a very different setup

And I we we just worked harder than anybody else

We said like we will become the number one show in the world

and to do that, we worked, you know, we had breakfast, lunch and dinner together every day for two years

Most of everything else in my life was sacrificed

in order to get to the show to number one

So it was never, I guess, a surprise to us when we would hit these milestones

and everyone would like go crazy externally and we were like, yeah, we we kind of know

that's where we're heading

It's inevitable for us

that that success was coming

But it's founded on a load of sort of first principles which

I guess we can maybe get into

I've you've probably had people talk about the 1% mindset

or this like compounding success or sweating the small stuff

Like we

none of us had also for context, none of us had ever worked in podcasting before

None of us had really ever worked in media

So it's not like we were taking sort of shared knowledge, we were just applying first principles

of how to gain people's attention through this new medium of this new podcast which was exploding

And so

things like

filming the thing

for us was so obvious

Of course you would film the podcast because how on earth are you ever going to get in front of people who are consuming video content every day

if you don't get into their feeds

So for us it it was things like that where, you know, people now in 2025

are still like, oh, maybe we should film our podcast

It's like for us that was so

it was so inevitable because we just based ourselves on

based our thinking on first principles which was views equals filming

And it, you know, when you get down to the basics, it sounds so simple

but so many people I guess overlook the the first principles

in order to do what they think is right

because everyone said podcast is an audio first platform

You've got to just make it audio, audio, audio

And we were like, no one's like discovering audio

Everyone's discovering video every day

So we're going to transfer that into the formats that people are consuming

So I guess it was that sort of thinking

that allowed us to sort of stay ahead

What was the cost you spoke there about sacrifice

And I know a lot of business owners struggle internally to know

you know

I think you use the word that obsess

Yeah

Like they have these goals and dreams, they want to be the number one, they want to be the best

but they're worried then about the sacrifice

and we hear a lot about work life balance

What was the reality for you

and what would you say if people are unsure how hard to work or how obsessed

What would you your advice be

based on your experience

I've had the incredible honor, privilege of working alongside people like Steven himself

but also all the CEOs we brought onto the podcast and I've worked alongside sort of CEOs

and Spotify and all these incredible successful people, Richard Branson, blah, blah, blah

And um there's not one of them who would ever, ever, ever tell you work life balance is a real thing

It's it's simply not

If you want to be one of those people

and I'll make it really clear

You can absolutely have work life balance if you want to continue living a balanced life

If you want to become the top 1%, the best in the world at what you do

there is not one person, I promise you no matter what any guru or course person is going to sell you

at the very top who is living a work life balanced kind of scenario

It just doesn't exist

And I've seen it, I've seen it with

people who have all different, you know, all different stages of their life

uh much older, much younger, but they're all the absolute top 1% at what they do

and all of them will bat away this idea of work life balance because to get there

to become the 1%, you must, must, must sacrifice

And I always say that like we live our life in these different chapters and these different phases

and each chapter comes with like different levels of sacrifice

You know, I was in a very privileged position where I had no responsibilities

really, like I was the only responsibility I had in my life was myself

And so I could be extremely selfish in my behaviors and go all in

and be completely obsessed and all consumed by my work

And I saw, you know, people at different stages of their lives who had to sort of retract a little bit and then give back a little bit

and I think it's a constant give and take

and rather than thinking about work life balance, which I've always found incredibly jarring because it suggests that work is one thing

and the entire rest of your life is another thing and that you have to weigh them up against each other

For me, work is one element of my life rather than weighing them up against each other

I also have relationships, I also have family, I also have hobbies and things that bring me joy

And for me it's a case of looking at all of those different buckets within my life and looking at how I'm spreading and filling those buckets at any one time

And if I feel really out of kilter at any one point, I'm going, okay

which bucket needs topping up right now, you know

It's a case of looking at it more holistically

and really going, okay, I've really for the last few years, and which is the truth

you know, been very selfish in my relationships

And so since leaving the Diary of a CEO, I've absolutely prioritized that area

I prioritized that space because I was neglecting it for a long time

And I do think it comes to a point where you have to, you know, where the life tells you in one way or another

it will trip you up somehow and go, you need to reset your buckets

Like I do believe that's the case

I love what you said because I I speak a lot about it being seasons

and I think it's knowing, having the self-awareness to know what season am I in right now

I also spoke to Dr. Arie that I know was a guest who was on Diary of a CEO

and I always remember him saying, we don't have to call it sacrifice, it's just a choice

Like understanding every choice you make has an upside and a downside and as long as you're clear and comfortable with that

You don't have to call it sacrifice

because it comes with that connotation, oh, I'm saying yes to this, but I'm saying no to my friends

Well, no, you're just choosing this, you're saying yes to this and then there will also be opportunities to say yes to friends

maybe in another season and things like that

And I think that can be useful when you're weighing it up in your mind

So all those years and that that, you know, real intense workload working closely with Steven, the team, the guests that you brought on and so on

I know this must be like hard question to answer

but is there one like key lesson or something that you took from that that's now a real guiding force as you move forward

Like one of the main things that stands out

Can I be annoying and say two

We'd love you to

Like you say 10, we just want to get as much as we can, Grace

Okay, there's there's three principles that I would say are the things that I've really

when I look at what I've taken from my time there that I'm now using every single day in everything I'm doing

So for context, I've left with like not really a clear, I guess, route or path of exactly where I want to go

I've given myself this grace period to sort of figure it out

Um

and but there are principles that I've sort of extracted and taken

The first one being failure is feedback

So for us, failure at Diary of a CEO was probably one of the most critical principles that allowed us to stay as far ahead of the competition as we did

We were so willing and in fact eager to fail as often as we possibly could

And I know a lot of companies and organizations say that

They're like, we like failure

and then behind the scenes they're like, if they fail, they're getting fired

You know

For us it was like failure was actually genuinely within our infrastructure encouraged

to the point where we had, they have, we had a head of failure

and her entire job was to orchestrate as many experiments as possible to encourage the learning as quickly as we possibly could

Because our theory was we're going to have to fail to find the right thing

If we can fail as quickly as possible, we're going to get to the answer before anyone else does

So failure for us was celebrated, we were incentivized to fail

And I think that mindset is so rare

I think people, and I've seen it now since I've left, I've worked in sort of different organizations

whether workshop and consultancy or whatever

and they're like, yeah, yeah, we encourage failure

And then it's like, well, how are you incentivizing it

What's the support system so people feel actually encouraged to fail or safe to fail

An environment where they actually feel like if they fail, the world's not going to, you know, burn in front of them

and they're not going to lose their jobs

So for us, we were just looking every single day for the opportunity to experiment and try something

And it did not matter if that experiment resulted in success or failure

because for us it was just one step closer to the right answer

So we we celebrated the input rather than the output

which I think is a a mindset I play with every single day

I have zero fear, zero fear about failure

because for me it's either a learning or a success

And I think that is fundamentally one of the best lessons I could have ever learned

The second one is this idea of 1% which I spoke to earlier

The 1% mindset is

I'm sure you've all come across it in different schools, different things to different people

different people write about it in different ways

Essentially the idea that every single day you're looking at edging 1% closer to your goal

So rather than trying to do 100% overnight, it's what's the one thing I can do tomorrow

that's going to edge me closer to my goal

Because ultimately if you look back in a year

you've moved X number of percentage along the along the way

and it's not as scary or it's not as daunting

It's like what's the what's the one little thing that I can change or alter or control today

that's going to edge me closer to my end goal

And I guess that leads into the third principle which is like sweat the small stuff

Most people will tell you not to

Most people say don't bother, don't sweat the small stuff

don't worry about it, just go, you know, go big

just like forget about it, it's fine, it will all figure itself out

We were obsessed, like you would absolutely think we were insane

if I were to go into all the little things we obsessed over

We sweat the small stuff more than anybody else

Like the temperature in the room

The temperature in the room

The music that the guests

We would research the music that the guest would be most comfortable and relaxed to

that they used when they wanted to calm down or relax

and we'd play that when they entered the room

so that they were in the mindset to share more information

to feel comfortable more quickly

so we didn't have to do too much warm up

How did you see

We had a whole research department

I tried to find it for you

I was like

I'll forget it already

I keep some some things close to my chest

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I think, you know, we had a whole research department

and they were phenomenal, they do research calls in the same way you would if you were going on a Piers Morgan interview

You know, they would interview the mom, the dad, the sister, the girlfriend, the brother, they would do all these research calls before they'd find out all of the information that the person would sit in the chair and be like, how did you find that out about me

Like almost a bit terrified

Um and you know, Steve would present them with photos and it it just created this

depth of conversation that nobody could compete with

But we did so, you know, we created

we had this whole vehicle made with Mercedes that was the Diary of a CEO vehicle

that we would pick up our guests in

very specifically so the experience started

we were controlling all of the sort of different environmental factors from the minute they were picked up wherever they were picked up from

And there were messages in there, there were gifts in there, you know, we we controlled as much as we possibly could

from the minute they were in our in our care to the minute they left

And I mean, we controlled the CO2 levels in the room

Like I you would think we were crazy

Like you would think we were crazy

But that's how you get your guests to cry, right

That's what you

This is we've found the secret now

how they break the toughest people

But I mean people would look at what you were doing there, Grace, and they'd be like, that's the dream

Like what an amazing life, job and and position you're in

I imagine then coming into the decision to leave is quite a big decision

How did you come to that decision

It's very hard spending every single day around incredible, creative entrepreneurs

who are building the most incredible, exciting tech, service

consumer product and not get the edge to want to do it yourself

I I remember I was in a taxi a few years ago and getting got chatting with him

and they would always, oh, you work for the Diary of a CEO

you'd have a good conversation

And um he was like, well, surely you're going to go and do your own thing

And I was like, what do you mean, of course I'm not going to, like I'm where would I possibly go

This is the best place in the entire world

How could I go and ever leave and do it

I have I don't want to be an entrepreneur

I've seen how hard it is, I'm not interested in that

I want to be behind the scenes, I want to be part of the team

And then something's and then that switch happens and you go, oh, actually I do think I want to be the guy who the girl who builds something

and I do want to create something for myself

And I thought I've been blessed with this crazy opportunity where I've been able to absorb

either via osmosis or via learning or whatever it was

insight, knowledge, wisdom, experience that, you know, most people pay a lot of money to be exposed to

And I thought it'd be a real shame if I didn't sort of act on that

At the same time, I'd been encouraged within work directly by Steve to build my personal brand

Um and essentially what happened is my

I I mean my last week at work, I did I we work in the office five days a week

I was in every single day but I also delivered four talks in person that week

So I was doing two jobs, I was doing I was living two lives

and I I saw this opportunity where the speaking, the content, the creative, the personal brand had given me this

this opportunity to go and have this grace period and this grace, pardon the pun, to figure it out

And um

I was also quite I had we had really honest conversations at work

which I'm very grateful for

and they said like, I think it's I think you've got to go for it

Like you've got to go and seize this opportunity

And they're like, we'll always be here

I'm very much still involved, like you can't once you're part of that cult

you can't you can't get away

Um

but it was I think it's a really interesting time for like employee brands, personal brands

Um and I think I almost am a case study for what we're starting to see happen within businesses

now where employee brands are encouraged to be built

but the the downside to that is the likelihood is they're, you know, if they're only good at it

their brand will get so big that they will probably leave

But the reality is is your A players, your best people are probably going to leave anyway

So you might as well get them on board and allow them to become an ambassador for your brand during that time that you do have them

So it's it's a really interesting time

Let's talk about being a creator entrepreneur and this kind of space that you're now operating in

People are not sure what that actually is

Do you want to just tell people what that is and kind of what the main things are that you're doing now

Yeah

So

um

I guess this term creator entrepreneur is quite new because

what we've seen for the last 10 years within the creator economy is this emergence of the influencer

And the influencer was someone who shared content in exchange for uh monetization, right

So they would share links, brand deals, affiliate

all of that sort of thing

Very transactional

They'd be used essentially to reach the audience that they'd created through their content

And that was how they monetized

So this this influencer blew up and everybody sort of left their jobs to become an influencer

And it's now there was a stat that came out with the IAB this week last week that one in three people in the UK are now consider themselves like a creator or an influencer

which is just this huge crazy phenomenon

And what we've seen in that sort of industry in that space is

people become very tired of being influenced

So the demand for influencers in this it's just not the same as what it used to be

So whether you've built an audience of 100,000, a million, 10 million, the saturation within that space

and the fatigue audience are feeling towards influencers mean that they're

the demand is shifting

And what we're seeing in this shift is the emergence of the creator entrepreneur

So what's the difference between an influencer and a creator entrepreneur

An influencer, as I said, is very transactional

So it's a case of, hi, we would like you to sell X number of products, can you post two pieces of content

Yes, deal done

It's very superficial, it's very transactional

and it serves a means to an end

So the content is designed to sale to sell or to convert something

The idea of a creator entrepreneur is that

yes, they might still

sorry

they might still work with brand partners

but it's in a completely different capacity

So we're seeing the likes of Alex Earl having, which is who's one of the biggest creators in one of the biggest influencers or creators in the US

one of the biggest people on TikTok, um being given equity within Poppy

which then went on to sell for two billion to Pepsi last year

We're seeing Anna Archer, who's a running influencer from London, being given equity in Runner, the app

which then went on to be acquired by Strava this year

And it's it's much more about embedding the creators into long-term brand partnerships

where they have equity and real stakes within a business because the business actually understands that that influence can push the needle

far greater or move the needle far more than a transactional link in their stories or a sale

They actually have the power to influence at scale the ultimate sale price of the business

if you bring them on board, bring them behind the scenes and allow them to uh dictate and communicate how how the brand dictates itself on social media, for example

So

we're seeing a massive shift of how influencer marketing is working

And in that same way, these influencers who previously were getting all these brand deals through when it was, you know, the heyday of influencer marketing

are also realizing that they've built an audience that they can monetize themselves without needing the third party of a brand or a business

So they're going, okay, I've built this audience who are very engaged with me

and they're very interested in me

What can I build as a product or a business myself that I can sell directly to my audience

that doesn't need to be sponsored by a third party

They have control back

So that's the difference between I guess an influencer and a creator entrepreneur

A creator entrepreneur is someone who is building audience first or they have built audience first and they're creating product second to sell to the audience they've created

It's why we're seeing this absolute boom in creator led businesses and celebrity led brands

because what they've done for the last few years or what they're doing is building an incredibly dedicated, high trust, high loyalty, engaged audience

and then now figuring what the product fit is going to be to sell to them

So previously we would have seen businesses be built that it would be product first, audience second

I'm building audience first, whilst I figure out what the product is

I'm going to sell to my audience

So I'm building audience on Instagram, LinkedIn and more recently YouTube

which I absolutely am obsessed with

And for me it's build the audience first and let the product follow

Why have you chosen to go down the YouTube route

I know you've recently started a vlog and it's like every single week

And they're quite long, right

They're like 40 odd minutes

an hour long

My poor editor

So it's a lot

Yeah

right

So why are you choosing to invest in YouTube

And again, what's some of the tips you'd give us

Yeah

I guess, so look, I have a slight bias

because we built the Diary of a CEO up on YouTube

It was our primary platform

And we did that for two reasons

One, in the podcasting world, YouTube has discoverability, right

So within podcasting until very recently, none of the platforms have been set up for discoverability

So if you're a new podcast

and you've set yourself up on the audio apps

there's very little chance that you're going to be seen unless someone in your WhatsApp group sends you the link to it

There's very little discoverability

Whereas on YouTube, the algorithm will put your content in front of new people in the same way as the other social media apps do

So that's why it was always a priority for us

The second reason it was because of the data it provides

There is no other platform, there's no other platform that provides the amount of data YouTube does

You get pages and pages and pages of insights and analytics and demographics and data

And data is power, right

The more information you have, the more personalized the experience can be for the audience

And so we were completely obsessed with gathering as much data as we possibly could

And so for us, that's why YouTube was always the priority in the early days

What we didn't quite realize

was the value of a subscriber on YouTube versus the value of a follower on another social media app

like a short form social media app

And so if you think about it

if someone hits subscribe on your YouTube, they may have watched 10, 20 minutes of your content

If someone hits follow on Instagram, they may have watched three seconds

So they've already spent 10 to 20 minutes with you

which you may never get from a follower on a short form social media app

So the intensity, the loyalty, the engagement that comes from just one subscriber on YouTube

I think, and this is just my sort of analysis from from building it myself recently

I think it's worth about 1,000 subscribers or followers on another platform

The value and I I've been totally blown away

and it's actually made me, yes, I completely understand what we built with the Diary of a CEO

We built it up to 12 million before I left

And I mean, the way they would convert when we would bring anything to like a real life tour around

or a product, we couldn't keep anything on the shelves for more than five minutes

The the loyalty was just incredible

So I did see that there

and you know when they turn

when they turned up to events, it was it was so powerful

and it was so moving

and it was so the parasocial relationship was very, very strong

But when I've what I've experienced for myself is is the same

and I think that's what's really surprised me because

it took a really long time for us to build up that 12 million, but I've only I've been going for a few weeks

and I'm I don't know, it was 7,000 subscribers on YouTube

And the the intensity of a subscriber on YouTube, I've already already seen to be worth so much more

than the audience I build up on Instagram

So for me now it's about going all in and it's actually made me completely reframe

how I approach the platform with uh brands I consult for

And for me it's like, yeah, you may only have a much smaller audience on YouTube

but if they click subscribe, they are in

They're your bottom of funnel clients, bottom of funnel customers

And I would be looking at creating a series for every brand I work with going forward on YouTube

because I think one, the feedback you get, the data is phenomenal

But imagine like I so I put this vlog up

I've made myself accountable for 52 weeks

I'm putting a vlog up every Friday

Um I have never in my life, and I've been going for five years on my own personal social channels

had people message me going at 8:01 on Friday

Where's the vlog, where's the vlog, where's the vlog

And I'm like, whoa, guys

two secs

Like it's just uploaded

It's gone

now

It's gone

Flash in the pan

These things always happen

Um and for the just on that note, like I would say if you're a brand owner, you don't always have to jump on every single trend that comes your way

Like please don't

Please, it's people see straight through it

And really you should only be leaning into trends if they feel very aligned with the with your audience and where you want to go

make sure you make it key, isn't it

If you're just jumping on everything, people you lose trust, right

And I think

so yeah, so with Instagram, for example, right now, what we're seeing is like a follower count matters less than ever before

So the probably the last metric you should be measuring as a as a means of a KPI or success is your follower account

Because

what we're seeing with the likes of for you pages on TikTok or your explore page on Instagram

where most people are spending their time

it's not dictated by follower account

So it actually doesn't matter if you've got zero followers or a million followers

you can go viral tomorrow

So follower account has become less meaningful than ever before

It's why influencers are also sort of dying on this hill

in some to some degree

not the not the market

not the whole industry for sure

but the the way we've worked with influencers in the past because a follower account did used to dictate

the potential ROI of the campaign

Whereas now, a follower account is almost futile

So I would say when it comes to Instagram

yes, there are going to be waves of algorithm changes

and we're definitely going through one now

where engagement is at an all-time low

You've got to get super, super clear on why you're what you're doing on that platform

and who you're trying to speak to

And then set your KPIs and measurements of success up via that goal

Because ultimately, if you're trying to convert, I don't know

three new clients a month or whatever it is

three new clients a quarter

you need three people

You don't need 500,000 people viewing a reels

You don't need 400,000 people following you

You need to reach those right three people

So I would be obsessing over how to get in front of that audience

And it's also worth saying like Instagram might not be your best platform to do that

Instagram is one of many free social media marketing tools that we can take advantage of

There are still, do you know the the number one still most used social media app

Facebook

So we're very quick to sort of jump on the platforms that everyone says we need to be on

We need to be on TikTok, we need to be on Instagram

All this new platforms emerging, we need to be the first people on there

Please be dictated by your audience

not by like your desires for where you want to show up

And your goals

So I'm I'm very aware that lots of people I'm working with, they're all really struggling with engagement right now

And yes, I could give you a formula for like a viral reel

It's not going to serve you

because the reality is virality is going to bring a load of eyeballs in

and probably none of them are going to be relevant for your end goal

which is a conversion to a paying consumer

So I think it's really important that we just get really clear on what we're trying to achieve on this platform

as a marketing tool

Let's remember

We always drop the marketing part of social media

We're like, oh, we're on social media

It's social media marketing

It is a marketing platform whether we like it or not

we're being sold to the minute we go on these apps

So you've got to get really clear on who you're marketing to and why you're marketing to them

and set up your, please set up your metrics of measurement based on that

Because anything like a follower or a like, they're just vanity metrics

They're just serving the ego

They're not serving the business

I can assure you

Why have you chosen to go down the YouTube route

I know you've recently started a vlog and it's like every single week

And they're quite long, right

They're like 40 odd minutes

an hour long

My poor editor

So it's a lot

Yeah

right

So why are you choosing to invest in YouTube

And again, what's some of the tips you'd give us

Yeah

I guess, so look, I have a slight bias

because we built the Diary of a CEO up on YouTube

It was our primary platform

And we did that for two reasons

One, in the podcasting world, YouTube has discoverability, right

So within podcasting until very recently, none of the platforms have been set up for discoverability

So if you're a new podcast

and you've set yourself up on the audio apps

there's very little chance that you're going to be seen unless someone in your WhatsApp group sends you the link to it

There's very little discoverability

Whereas on YouTube, the algorithm will put your content in front of new people in the same way as the other social media apps do

So that's why it was always a priority for us

The second reason it was because of the data it provides

There is no other platform, there's no other platform that provides the amount of data YouTube does

You get pages and pages and pages of insights and analytics and demographics and data

And data is power, right

The more information you have, the more personalized the experience can be for the audience

And so we were completely obsessed with gathering as much data as we possibly could

And so for us, that's why YouTube was always the priority in the early days

What we didn't quite realize

was the value of a subscriber on YouTube versus the value of a follower on another social media app

like a short form social media app

And so if you think about it

if someone hits subscribe on your YouTube, they may have watched 10, 20 minutes of your content

If someone hits follow on Instagram, they may have watched three seconds

So they've already spent 10 to 20 minutes with you

which you may never get from a follower on a short form social media app

So the intensity, the loyalty, the engagement that comes from just one subscriber on YouTube

I think, and this is just my sort of analysis from from building it myself recently

I think it's worth about 1,000 subscribers or followers on another platform

The value

and I I've been totally blown away

and it's actually made me, yes, I completely understand what we built with the Diary of a CEO

We built it up to 12 million before I left

And I mean, the way they would convert when we would bring anything to like a real life tour around

or a product, we couldn't keep anything on the shelves for more than five minutes

The loyalty was just incredible

So I did see that there

and you know when they turn

when they turned up to events, it was it was so powerful

and it was so moving

and it was so the parasocial relationship was very, very strong

But what I've what I've experienced for myself is is the same

and I think that's what's really surprised me because

it took a really long time for us to build up that 12 million, but I've only I've been going for a few weeks

and I'm I don't know, it was 7,000 subscribers on YouTube

And the the intensity of a subscriber on YouTube, I've already already seen to be worth so much more

than the audience I build up on Instagram

So for me now it's about going all in and it's actually made me completely reframe

how I approach the platform with uh brands I consult for

And for me it's like, yeah, you may only have a much smaller audience on YouTube

but if they click subscribe, they are in

They're your bottom of funnel clients, bottom of funnel customers

And I would be looking at creating a series for every brand I work with going forward on YouTube

because I think one, the feedback you get, the data is phenomenal

But imagine like I so I put this vlog up

I've made myself accountable for 52 weeks

I'm putting a vlog up every Friday

I have never in my life, and I've been going for five years on my own personal social channels

had people message me going at 8:01 on Friday

Where's the vlog, where's the vlog, where's the vlog

And I'm like, whoa, guys

two secs

Like it's just uploaded

It's gone

now

It's gone

Flash in the pan

These things always happen

Um and for the just on that note, like I would say if you're a brand owner, you don't always have to jump on every single trend that comes your way

Like please don't

Please, it's people see straight through it

And really you should only be leaning into trends if they feel very aligned with the with your audience and where you want to go

make sure you make it key, isn't it

If you're just jumping on everything, people you lose trust, right

And I think

so yeah, so with Instagram, for example, right now, what we're seeing is like a follower count matters less than ever before

So the probably the last metric you should be measuring as a as a means of a KPI or success is your follower account

Because

what we're seeing with the likes of for you pages on TikTok or your explore page on Instagram

where most people are spending their time

it's not dictated by follower account

So it actually doesn't matter if you've got zero followers or a million followers

you can go viral tomorrow

So follower account has become less meaningful than ever before

It's why influencers are also sort of dying on this hill

in some to some degree

not the not the market

not the whole industry for sure

but the the way we've worked with influencers in the past because a follower account did used to dictate

the potential ROI of the campaign

Whereas now, a follower account is almost futile

So I would say when it comes to Instagram

yes, there are going to be waves of algorithm changes

and we're definitely going through one now

where engagement is at an all-time low

You've got to get super, super clear on why you're what you're doing on that platform

and who you're trying to speak to

And then set your KPIs and measurements of success up via that goal

Because ultimately

if you're trying to convert, I don't know, three new clients a month or whatever it is

three new clients a quarter

you need three people

You don't need 500,000 people viewing a reels

You don't need 400,000 people following you

You need to reach those right three people

So I would be obsessing over how to get in front of that audience

And it's also worth saying like Instagram might not be your best platform to do that

Instagram is one of many free social media marketing tools that we can take advantage of

There are still, do you know the the number one still most used social media app

Facebook

So we're very quick to sort of jump on the platforms that everyone says we need to be on

We need to be on TikTok, we need to be on Instagram

All this new platforms emerging, we need to be the first people on there

Please be dictated by your audience

not by like your desires for where you want to show up

And your goals

So I'm I'm very aware that lots of people I'm working with, they're all really struggling with engagement right now

And yes, I could give you a formula for like a viral reel

It's not going to serve you

because the reality is virality is going to bring a load of eyeballs in

and probably none of them are going to be relevant for your end goal

which is a conversion to a paying consumer

So I think it's really important that we just get really clear on what we're trying to achieve on this platform

as a marketing tool

Let's remember

We always drop the marketing part of social media

We're like, oh, we're on social media

It's social media marketing

It is a marketing platform

whether we like it or not, we're being sold to the minute we go on these apps

So you've got to get really clear on who you're marketing to and why you're marketing to them

and set up your, please set up your metrics of measurement based on that

Because anything like a follower or a like, they're just vanity metrics

They're just serving the ego

They're not serving the business

I can assure you

What's next for you

And do you have a strategy

Is it just audience growth and C

or is there a long-term vision and strategy

Um

speaking to a strategist

Um

I

a little bit of both

I think I'm very

I think there's a lot of things that have come my way in recent years that if I hadn't been open at the right just open to opportunity

they wouldn't have landed in my lap

And if I try to be strategic and plan too much

I wouldn't have been so open to the opportunities that presented themselves to me

I do think I'm now in a stage where obviously when you go out by yourself, you've you've got to make sure there's there's

uh there's opportunity and invest, you know, all the things coming in at the right time

and cash flow and all of that sort of thing

So I have to get a bit more strategic

So I'm thinking about

um

I'm thinking more a bit about it holistically though

I'm thinking about like who do I want to be known for

When I leave a room, how do I want to make people feel

Um what's the three things I want people to think about when they think of me

Um and then how can I build product around that sort of emotion and feeling and connection that I'm building with my audience

So I would say there's definitely elements of like strategic, holistic thinking, bigger picture thinking

will I also post something that comes to me like that and I feel very emotional

uh you know, connected to the topic

or I feel very emotionally charged about something

Absolutely

And I think that's

Um

I think you've got to always have room for that, you know

That sort of reactive um

moment or being willing to sort of pivot or change direction when something comes your way

But um

yeah, I'm just sort of sitting in this time

where I'm doing a lot of this sort of thing

I'm creating a lot of content

I'm doing a sort of exploring a little bit of workshop and consultancy

uh working with different types of people

so that probably by this time next year, I'll be like, yeah, this is who I am, this is what I want to do

But I'm allowing myself this time to explore because

I spent the last sort of five years following my calendar every single day

minute by minute, hour by hour

and being dictated by lots of other people

And so now I'm just sort of sitting in this moment, allowing my gut to do a little bit of the talking as well

thinking

and um

yeah, just really enjoying it

And I find that that's where a lot of the magic comes sometimes

where you pause and you actually have that space to explore

to try stuff

And I'm very excited, I feel like you join us at an interesting moment

It'll be it'll be exciting to see where you are a year from now

Grace, thank you so much

I want to give a few moments to if anyone wants to ask a few quick fire questions

Get get yourselves ready if you've got a question

Um the final question that I always ask guests on my podcast is

Grace, what is your personal definition of success

Um

finishing the day and feeling finishing every day or any day

and feeling that sense of fullness and fulfillment

whether it's with work, family, health, whatever it is

It's like feeling that sense of fullness

Um where you finish the day and you're like, yeah

I did everything I could to to feel that sense of fulfillment, of fullness today

Um

I think that's what success feels like to me

Give it for Grace, everyone

Right

Hands in the air

Anyone got a quick fire question

We've literally got a couple of minutes if anyone wants to ask

Right

Helen, it's up to you

You've been bloody mic

Right

Here we go

I've got to be

doing everything

Am I on, Darren

Am I

Turn me on, Darren

Right

Here we go

I'm just going to say, um, we'll come back in a year and tell us how you get on

Yeah

if you have me

Just watch her vlog

She'll tell you

Anyone else

Any quick questions

Ross, come on

This is your moment, man

All I was going to say, Grace, is, um, you said that

and I completely agree with you

everyone that you saw who was a CEO who had like achieved really, really big stuff had had found there was no balance

in terms of like they just gone all in on on on that thing

and they'd made sacrifice

Is there any other

was was there like any other universal attributes you you just felt across the board these people had

Um

what's a nice way to put it

Um like psychotic obsession

Right

Like obsession to the point where I don't think they think about anything else

at any minute of any hour of any day

Um

I that there's someone who writes on Instagram about it

and they capture it really nicely

I can't remember the name right now

And um

it's that sort of granular like that just live and breathe and sweat and dream about the thing they're building and the thing they're working on

Um I also think the other thing would probably be that the most successful people were all able to separate their ego from from what they were achieving

I think there was a middle, a middle group of people

who had maybe not achieved the great heights of success of your Richard Branson's, your like Whitney Wolf herds, your Amy grades

your those sort of people

Um and they weren't able to separate their ego from what they were doing

which chained them down to wherever they were

and they couldn't break through that ceiling

Whereas I think when you're able to remove your ego, you become less romantic about outcomes

and it becomes much more dictated by numbers and people

and and the reality of the situation

And the best entrepreneurs across the board, whether they were I worked at the privilege of working with all of the um

brands that Steve invested in for Dragons Den

So some really early stage entrepreneurs and some sort of more middle stage entrepreneurs

And um as soon as they could stop being romantic about their idea or romantic about the outcome

and your ego is involved

it's like you've got blinkers on and know what you can't hear anything else

anyone's saying or any advice

you don't take anything in

And you think you're the best at everything

and you think no one could do it like you can

And then when you drop that, it actually just becomes about

how can we make the best thing possible here

And that might be 50 iterations on from what you've currently got

But you're willing to experiment, test and like be fed the listen to the results that come in

So I would say like unwavering obsession

and then at the same time losing, removing your ego from whatever you're creating

I think they were like the most common traits

Amazing

Well, I'll have to leave it there

Can we give a massive round of applause for Grace

Thank you

Grace Andrews, everybody