Mastering the Art of Persuasion | HBR IdeaCast | Podcast

Welcome to the HBR IdeaCast from Harvard Business Review. I'm Alison Beard.

How do you get someone to back your ideas, buy your products, or behave in a different way? Whether it's a boss or a peer, customer or client, supplier or investor, or maybe people failing to wear masks during a pandemic. How do you get them to see things your way, especially if they initially disagree with you, discount you, or even worse, don't even know you're there?

Even with irrefutable data and emotional appeals, it can be really hard to change another person's mind. Most of us get extremely stuck in our opinions, preferences, and habits.

Today's guest argues that it's possible to push even the most resistant people in new directions. He says that persuasion starts with recognizing the reasons why expecting change is so very difficult, and then developing strategies to overcome those obstacles.

Jonah Berger is a marketing professor at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School and author of The Catalyst, How to Change Anyone's Mind.

And a quick note to listeners, we spoke to Jonah a while back before the pandemic and its fallout, but we checked in with him for an update on how these ideas apply now, and you'll hear that conversation at the end of the show.

We know that persuasion is so important in business, politics, all areas of life, really.

Some people seem a lot better at it than others.

So what's the number one mistake

that most people make in this area?

You know, everyone has something they want to change.

Employees want to change their boss's mind and leaders want to transform organizations.

Uh, marketers want to change the customer clients' mind.

Uh, sales folks want to do the same.

Uh, startups want to change industries, nonprofits want to change the world.

But change is really hard.

Often we push and we push and we push and nothing happens.

We think about changing minds, we think about changing behavior.

We think about changing organizations.

Often we take a certain style of approach.

We think if we just add more information, more reasons, more facts, more figures.

Just send people one more PowerPoint deck.

Uh, you know, they'll they'll come around.

And that intuition makes a lot of sense in the physical world.

If we're sitting in front of a chair, for example, and we want to move that chair.

A good way to move that chair is pushing, right?

We push a little bit on the chair and it goes in the direction we want it to go.

Uh, but in the social world that doesn't necessarily work.

Because when we push people, they often push back.

Asking a subtly but importantly different question, why hasn't that person changed already?

What are the barriers or obstacles that are getting in the way of change?

And how can we mitigate them?

So why do people have this instinct to push back even when the thing

being suggested might be good for them?

We all love to feel like we're in control.

Uh, we love to feel like we're shaping and we're driving our own lives.

We're making the choice.

But unfortunately, when other people try to shape our opinions.

We don't feel like we have control.

Think about a few years back to the the Tide Pod challenge.

Uh, so if you remember a number of years ago.

Uh, Tide Pod was having this this issue.

Procter and Gamble was having this issue.

Uh, where Tide Pods, the the things that we all throw in the laundry to make laundry easier.

People were eating them.

Uh, and so you think about detergent.

Why would anyone eat detergent?

But there was um a funny article on the onions.

Saying they look good enough to eat.

And soon young people were challenging each other to eat Tide Pods.

Uh, and so there was all this chatter online about, oh, should we eat Tide Pod?

Should we not?

People, you know, shooting videos of themselves doing it.

Lots of people getting attention.

Should we eat poison or not?

For this sort of ridiculous, ridiculous thing.

And so imagine you're sitting in Procter and Gamble's shoes at the moment, right?

You're probably sitting there going, why do we need to tell people not to eat chemicals?

But you're probably saying, you know, just in case, we'll we'll put out an announcement.

So, uh, Procter and Gamble does, they put out a very simple announcement.

Saying, don't eat Tide Pods.

Uh, and in case that wasn't enough, uh, they hire Rob Gronkowski, famous football player we think of as Gronk, uh, to help.

So, uh, he shoots this quick video for Tide online.

Saying, you know, are Tide Pods ever safe to eat?

No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Flashes on the screen.

Um, now, clearly this this should have been enough.

It shouldn't have been a problem to begin with, right?

I mean.

Uh, people are eating chemicals.

So, so.

But interestingly, if you look at the data, something funny happens.

So if you look at search data.

For Tide Pods, uh, it's it's creeping up as the Tide Pod challenge gets some attention.

Uh, and then Procter and Gamble and Gronk make their announcement.

Uh, and that's when all hell breaks loose.

So you would think or you would hope that that would lead people to stop eating Tide Pods.

If anything, it should have no effect on Tide Pods.

But the exact opposite happens.

Uh, search traffic shoots up by more than fourfold.

Visits to poison control shoot up as well.

Uh, and essentially, asking people not to do something had had backfired.

And so how do you get people to overcome this

instinct to push back and say, no, I don't want to be told what to do?

Yeah, I mean, the funniest and almost worst thing about reactance.

Is it isn't just when we tell people not to do something.

The same thing happens when we tell people to do something.

Even if it was something they may have wanted to do already, right?

You think about a meeting.

Uh, where, you know, you're asking people to support a certain initiative.

They may have already even thought about supporting the initiative.

But if you ask them to support it, it impinges on that freedom and autonomy, right?

They feel like now the reason they're supporting it isn't because they wanted to.

It was because you told them to.

Which makes them have this knee-jerk reaction, well, maybe I shouldn't.

Uh, I shouldn't go along.

And so one one way to solve this problem is is to do something I call providing a menu.

Right, so imagine just in your own personal life, for example.

You know, someone asks, what are you going to do this weekend?

Or what do you want to do this weekend?

You say, oh, let's let's go see a movie.

And then they go, oh, it's going to be too rainy outside.

Or, oh, you know, it's uh, why don't we do something else instead?

Right, they shoot it down.

But if said you give them two options, multiple options.

It subtly changes their role.

Because now rather than sitting there thinking about all the reasons what's wrong with what you suggested.

Now they're thinking about which of the two options you suggested is a is a better fit for them.

And because they're focusing on which one they like better, they're more likely to pick one at the end of that meeting.

So what are some of the other big hurdles that we face when we're trying to get someone to change?

You know, whether it's an opinion or the products and services we're using.

So there are five common barriers.

Uh, I found across situations.

We talked about reactance.

Uh, the next is endowment, which is we tend to be attached to things we're doing already.

Uh, then there's distance, uh, too far if we ask for somebody that's too big and ask.

Uh, people ignore it.

Uh, and corroborating evidence.

Which is all about providing more proof.

I think another big issue is uncertainty.

Anytime there's a change, anytime there's something new.

Anytime we're asking people to do something different.

There's a risk associated with doing something different.

Old things feel safe.

Even if they're not perfect, have problems associated with them.

We know what those problems are.

Right, whereas new things, we don't even know what those problems are.

And so often people feel quite uncertain.

If you think about it, new things often involve switching costs as well.

Right, so think about buying a new phone, for example.

It costs money to buy that that new phone.

That's a cost of switching.

Uh, but there's often time and effort costs as well.

So if you're pitching a new project to your boss, for example.

They're not only thinking there, okay, well, how much will it cost to do this?

But they're thinking, God, how much effort is going to be, who do we going to switch off another project?

And all those switching costs lead them to say, well, no thanks.

Uh, and even worse, think about when the costs and the benefits occur.

Right, so the costs of change are often up front.

Where the benefits are later, we're not going to know for another month or two whether it's actually going to make money.

Or actually going to be a good idea.

And even worse, those costs are certain.

Whereas the benefits are uncertain.

And so that that cost benefit timing gap.

Right, costs are now and they're certain.

Benefits are later and they're uncertain.

And so that cost benefit gap is going to make it hard for change to happen.

So I'd love to give you a few scenarios.

Of people like our listeners who might be trying to persuade colleagues or customers to change their behavior.

But coming up against these obstacles you're talking about.

And you can give us advice on how they should handle it.

I feel like this is like an advice column in the newspaper.

I'll do my best.

Exactly.

Um, and so I think the first one deals with that uncertainty.

Hurdle that you were just talking about.

So you're a bank executive charged with getting existing customers to use a new app.

And making sure that it helps you attract new customers.

Yeah, so.

It's it's funny, I did a very similar project like this a few years ago for Yum Brands.

So one of their uh one of their uh food brands, Taco Bell was actually launching an app.

Um, and the app was doing okay, people were downloading it, but they weren't using it.

Um, and so one thing we spent a lot of time on is thinking about why.

Uh, and and how to change it.

Is the issue that people don't know the app exists?

So it's an awareness problem.

Do people know the app exists, but don't think it's any good?

Then we need to convince them it's good.

Um, do they think it's good, uh, but they don't want to download it?

Okay, why might that be?

Are they downloading it but not using it?

That's a different problem.

And so I think the first thing we need to do is is diagnose that problem.

Right, why isn't aren't people changing?

Where is the bottleneck in that process?

And then begin to think about how to solve it.

So let's say that the bottleneck is people aren't downloading the app.

Yeah, so I think one question I would say is, well, what are they doing at the moment?

Right?

So, uh, are they happily going into the bank?

Um, but they don't realize that app exists?

Or they think, ah, God, you know.

I'm not sure it's going to be trustworthy enough.

Uh, you know, what's going to happen with my personal data?

Um, if that's what they're uncertain about.

Then the question is, how can I resolve that uncertainty?

Right, how can I make them feel more comfortable that it's actually not a problem?

Is it concerns about not feeling they know how to use it?

How can you resolve that uncertainty, maybe have a white glove concierge service?

Where they come in one day and you have a, you know, a day every month.

Almost like the Apple store where they do training.

Where you train people on how to use the app.

Notice that the problem is trust versus the problem is knowledge about using it.

Those are very different problems that need very different solutions.

Second scenario, you're working on a project with a group.

And you want to take it in one direction, but your teammate is convinced you should go another.

So I think that idea of reactance that we talked a little about before.

Um, is going to be important here as well.

Obviously, they have something they want.

And so you just telling them about what you want isn't going to be enough.

Um, and if anything, if you seem like you're advocating for what you want.

They're going to push back.

And so first is to just start with understanding.

I talk a lot about in the book about shrinking distance.

Uh, you know, sometimes we we think about sort of uh a choice.

Like in this case, do we go with my option or someone else's option?

Almost like a football field.

Right, uh, one end zone is my option, one end the other end zone is their option.

And various people in the organization may be arrayed on that continuum.

And the problem is if we ask for too much, we ask that person to do our option.

They're going to say, well, no way.

That's on the other side of the football field.

That's sort of in my region of rejection, I'm not even going to consider it.

It's too far away from where I am now.

I'm not going to move that that far.

In those situations, a couple things come up.

Uh, first, often we have to start by asking for less.

Right, rather than starting by saying, hey, completely switch to my side.

Ask for something that's a lot closer to where they are already and get them to move just a little bit.

This has two, I think, key benefits, right?

One, it it gets them to move in a little bit in your direction.

But then it also makes what you're suggesting originally seem less far away.

I talked to a doctor, for example, that was trying to get someone to lose a bunch of weight.

So it's an overweight trucker, the guy was drinking like three liters of Mountain Dew a day.

He was on the road all the time.

The knee-jerk reaction in that situation is to tell him not to drink any Mountain Dew, right?

It's got all this sugar in it, it's like, you know, drink it's like eating a couple Snicker bars a day.

It's terrible for you, just tell him to quit cold turkey.

Same thing in the in the office context, right?

Tell your colleague just to switch to your side.

Which obviously isn't going to work.

Right, it's so far in their region of rejection.

They just going to say no way outright.

So instead what she did is she asked for less.

She said, hey, rather than drinking three liters a day, drink two.

And so he grumbled and said, I don't know if I want to do it.

And said, okay, fine.

And, you know, few few weeks later came back and had gotten it down to two.

Then when he got down to two, she said, okay, now go down to one.

And then when he came back a few months later, once he moved from one, moved from one to zero.

And and it took a while, right?

Didn't happen right away.

Didn't happen in a day or a week.

But this guy's lost over 25 pounds by doing this.

Because it's not just about asking for less.

It's about asking for less and then asking for more.

So third scenario, you want a raise or promotion and are trying to convince your boss that you deserve it.

Yeah, I mean, I think a a good one for this.

Uh, goes back to providing the menu that we talked a little bit about before.

Right, if if you give your boss one option, you say, I want a raise.

The boss is going to think about, no.

So you can say something like, you know, hey, boss.

Uh, I'd either like a raise, uh, or I'd like more days off.

And I'd by the way, I'd start with something else.

You know, showing your value to the organization.

Saying, hey, you know, I've been here this long, this blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Um, uh, you know, I'd appreciate uh something.

Either more compensation, a raise, or more days off, or more equity, or more control, something else.

And what that does again, right, is that gives that person choice.

Rather than feeling like you've barged in their office and you've told them what to do.

Because you're encouraging them to focus on two things you like, they're less likely to think about that third thing, which is just saying no.

So often when we talk about influence, we hear it needs to appeal to both the head and the heart.

You know, so you're presenting data and you're appealing to people's emotions.

How does this play in into overcoming the hurdles you're talking about?

Yeah, I mean, I think emotion is is certainly one of um.

One of the thing that's that's wrapped up in this idea.

There's lots of research that shows that people value things they're doing already.

Uh, more than new things.

Uh, so a famous study, for example, has people, hey, you know, look at this product.

Imagine you own it, how much would you sell it for?

They ask another set of people, you know, imagine you don't own it, how much would you buy it for?

Research finds if you already have it, it's the status quo, you're doing it already.

You value it a lot more.

We're attached to old things.

There's even some nice research on home, uh, home buyers and sellers, for example.

The longer you've lived in a home, the higher you more money you think it's worth.

Even controlling for its actual value.

You become emotionally attached to it.

Um, but we're not only attached to the old.

We're also scared of of the new.

There's a lot of uh work on neophobia, for example.

It says, look, you know, we're scared that this new thing is is going to work out.

We're anxious about whether it's actually going to be successful.

Anytime we don't know what's going to happen.

We tend to want to hit the pause button.

Right, we're scared of new things.

Uh, we're scared of stuff we don't understand.

We're scared of things that are different from what we're doing already.

Both that they might be worse than what we're already doing, but also they may not be better.

And that anxiety, that uncertainty often stems action.

Do these techniques work differently depending on who has more power in the situation?

You know, can someone who's sort of low on the totem pole use them?

And then does a boss even need to?

What's definitely true is that the higher up you are in an organization, the more power you have.

Right, the more ability you have to legislate something.

The more ability you have to say, this is just what we're doing.

I don't care whether you want to do this or not.

This is just what I what I say goes.

I think unfortunately, as as many bosses, uh, who are listening have probably well aware.

They may say that, but it doesn't mean the rank and file move.

What I think is nice about these ideas is whether you're, you know, uh, the lowest employee on the totem pole in an organization.

Or you're the boss and you can legislate things.

I think these tools are equally useful.

Because to really change minds, we have to understand those barriers.

We have to understand the psychology that's preventing change.

And and how to mitigate it.

So your first two books were about how ideas and products catch on.

How they become contagious and how invisible influences can shape our decisions.

Is the idea between your work on catalyst that they're also supposed to be so subtle that we don't notice them?

And all of a sudden, everyone's buying into our ideas and everyone wants to buy our products and services?

You know, I think what's really neat is if you look at success stories.

Uh, in a variety of industries.

You tend to see the same patterns.

So, you know, for this book, yes, I interviewed great bosses, transformational leaders.

But I also talked about regular Joes and Janes who got their boss to adopt a new project.

I talked to startup founders who got their stuff to catch on.

Um, I talked to hostage negotiators who figured out how to get people to come out with their hands up.

And across this diverse set of situations, the same principles come up again and again.

And I think some of us may be aware of some of them.

We may have even done something that was successful in one particular case.

But we often haven't codified them in a way that allows us to really apply them.

And so that's why I like a framework.

This book has a framework to it.

Um, that I think allows us to say, well, look, let me diagnose that problem.

Let me figure out what the barriers, which of these five barriers are really getting in the way.

And then figure out which of the solutions underneath those barriers I can use.

Do you risk people figuring it out and feeling like they're being manipulated?

You know, I think that's true of anything that we do.

Um, and so I think some of these tools are a lot more subtle.

You know, one of the the ideas I talk about is asking rather than telling.

Right, rather than telling someone, hey, support my project or do the thing I want.

Ask them some questions.

I was talking to a guy who was trying to get students to study more.

Right, he runs a test prep company, he's trying to get students to study.

He finds if he tells them, hey, you need to study more.

They say, no thanks.

Right, just like in that meeting, if we say, hey, we should do this project.

Everyone says, no, no, they think about the reasons it's wrong.

So instead what he started doing is asking questions.

Right?

Well, why are you here at this test prep company?

Where are you hoping to get into schools?

Uh, what grades do you need in and test scores do you need to get into those schools?

How do you get to those schools?

And then eventually, how many hours do you need to study to get there?

And so by asking the right questions.

By guiding the series of questions.

You're allowing people to put that stake in the ground.

That then they're committing to the conclusion.

Right, if if we're a boss, we're trying to get people to work harder.

We can say, hey, we need to work harder.

Put more hours in.

Everyone's going to say, I don't want to do that.

But if in a meeting we say, hey, you know, what kind of organization do we want to be?

A good organization or a great organization?

We ask a question.

People aren't going to answer that question saying, we want to be a good organization.

No, we want to be a great company.

Right, okay.

Well, what do we need to do to get there?

Right, and by asking that question, you're inviting people to participate.

They're not only coming up with solutions, but they're coming up with solutions that are their solutions.

Which is going to make it a lot harder later on for them to say they don't like that solution.

Because they came up with it.

Right?

And and you're not noticing, you're not asking any questions.

You're not saying, hey guys, what do you want to do?

You're picking those set of questions to guide the journey.

Similar to guided choices, right?

You're asking the right questions to shape the path.

And encourage them to get to a conclusion that you want.

When they put that stake in the ground.

They're going to commit to it and they're going to be much more likely to go along.

So last question, let's talk about the flip side of this.

What if you're the intractable one?

You know, you're rigid, stuck in your ways, you don't want to change.

How do you recognize that and fix it?

Uh, I think I am the intractable one in my own life.

So I'm I'm well aware of this.

I mean, talk about the status quo bias.

I I don't know, a few years ago I had an iPhone 4.

I'd had it for uh probably four or five years.

Uh, love that thing to death.

Uh, was running out of memory.

Uh, I needed to get a new phone.

I didn't.

Right, I started deleting things on my phone.

Let me tell you, this really resonates with me.

I was the last person in our organization to have a BlackBerry.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, it's it's amazing.

Like, you know, I I went I went months of being able to basically not use any features on my phone.

Because I liked it.

I even looked at the new phone, but it was too big, so I didn't want it.

Um, you know, I wanted to I wanted to hopefully, maybe they'll come out with a new version that looks exactly like my new phone.

It'll just have more memory.

Right, I even I even missed a flight.

I finally broke down, I buy a new phone.

You think that'd be the end of it.

I waited three more months before I actually used that new phone.

Because I kept hoping.

Right?

And so I more than anybody else.

I am susceptible to the status quo bias.

We all are.

I think sometimes putting a name to some of these things helps us see.

It's not that I'm crazy or I'm stuck in my ways.

I'm actually, well, I'm I'm susceptible to this.

Because I have loss of verse.

Right?

I'm attached to old things.

Because the upsides aren't worth as much as the downsides.

Um, by understanding it.

I think we can not only understand how to change others' minds.

But how to change our own and our own behavior.

So as I said, we decided to call Jonah again and talk about what he's been seeing in recent months.

Now that we're in a post-COVID world.

Jonah, thanks so much for joining us again.

Thanks for having me back.

We can't really address this topic in a time of COVID without talking about public health.

Um, how have you seen governments effectively and ineffectively guide their citizens during this pandemic?

I mean, unfortunately, most of it has been quite ineffective.

Right, we've seen a lot of push messaging from, uh, wear your mask.

Uh, and stay home, uh, and don't do this.

And do that.

And a lot of telling people what to do.

Which, as we talked about, doesn't really work.

Um, you know, it's been it's been interesting to, um, be talking about these ideas at this time point.

Because I think, uh, nothing, uh, has shown, uh, the challenges of reactance.

More than recent events.

Uh, when you push people, they push back.

Uh, even if someone might have been willing to wear a mask or stay at home or do something else.

Because you told them to, now they're less interested in doing it.

And so, you know, what I've seen has been a lot more effective is.

Is some of the things we talked about more generally.

You know, things like highlighting a gap between attitudes and actions.

I was talking to a colleague who was, uh, worried about, um, you know, all their, uh, folks at the office.

And they're slowly trickling back in some ways, shape and form.

People aren't wearing masks enough.

And, you know, rather than telling them, hey, why don't you wear a mask at the office?

Why don't you say, you know, hey, have you brought your parent or grandparent to the office?

Have you brought your child to the office?

Would you want everyone to be wearing masks?

Probably.

Okay.

Well, then why aren't you?

Um, and so again, not not telling them what to do.

Not pushing them in one direction.

But really identifying the barriers to change and and mitigating them.

And we all also are in this new world of virtual work that might last for some time.

Uh, especially for knowledge workers.

Is persuasion more challenging when you aren't face-to-face with someone?

Yes and no.

I mean, I think in some ways we think it's all about standing up tall.

And speaking slowly and looking someone in the eye.

And and, you know, being that persuasive communicator.

And that stuff certainly helps.

Um, what I think is is nice about some of the strategies I talk about in the book is they're they're not dependent on face-to-face.

Or being a great communicator.

They're about understanding the science of persuasion.

And when it works and and when it doesn't.

And so, uh, whether you're talking to someone over the phone, whether you're shooting them an email.

Um, or whether you're on Zoom, um, these techniques still can work.

Um, uh, you know, you don't have to be the most confident person in the room.

You just have to know what to say when you get your opportunity.

We are in a time of crisis now, um, everything's in flux.

Does persuasion become more difficult during those types of periods?

You know, I think what's neat about this moment is while there is a lot going on.

And it's certainly challenging.

It's also a time of immense opportunity.

Um, people don't like change.

They don't want to have to change.

They would prefer never to have to change.

Now people have been forced to change.

Um, they've forced to do things differently.

They've been forced to shop more online.

They've been forced to work from home.

They've been forced to go running rather than go to the gym.

Whatever it might be.

Um, and so because they've been forced to change, they're more open to new ideas than they'd usually be.

I think a good analogy is sort of like a snow globe.

You know, when it sits on your office or or a table at home.

The snow is settled and nothing's really changing.

You shake it up and you've got a minute or so where everything's up in the air and things are moving around.

And you have an opportunity to move them in one direction or another.

And so I think now's really a time for whether you're a marketer, think about, okay, how do I give consumers a trial of my product or service?

While they would have gone usually with the, you know, the the main brand in the space.

Now they're more willing to try a challenger brand because they're doing new things.

Um, if I'm an employee and I want to change my boss's mind.

Well, how do I say, look, things aren't great at the moment?

Right, um, you know, sales are down.

We've got a lot of challenges.

Yes, there's a lot going on, but maybe now they're more willing to do something new because they have to do some new things in general.

Um, and so I think while it is a challenging time.

If we take advantage of this opportunity, we can really make a lot of headway.

I think we did learn that people who are very resistant to certain things can flip the switch very quickly.

If they need to.

You know, I used to hate video meetings.

And now I do them every single day of my life.

So, um, you do realize that that there is a way to break through.

Um, hesitation, resistance, etc.

Yeah, and I think in some sense.

You learn that things might not have been as bad as you thought.

Right, like yes, a new product or service might have seemed scary or different.

You might not have wanted to, you may not have wanted to work from home.

But you've been forced to try it, you actually learn that it's pretty good.

And afterwards you may stick with it.

Well, terrific, Jonah, thank you so much for joining us not once, but twice.

Indeed.

Hopefully, hopefully we'll get a chance to do it a third time sometime soon.

That's Jonah Berger, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School of Business.

And author of The Catalyst, How to Change Anyone's Mind.

This episode was produced by Mary Do.

We get technical help from Rob Eckhart.

Adam Buckholtz is our audio product manager.

Thanks for listening to the HBR IdeaCast.

I'm Alison Beard.