Speaker A
He waged jihad in Iraq and Syria, accused of terror and torture.
Frontline investigates Abu Mohammad al-Jolani, a former Al-Qaeda leader controlling Syria's Idlib, revealing his past, current power, and controversial claims.
Key Takeaways
- Abu Mohammad al-Jolani remains a highly controversial figure with a violent past but is seeking to reshape his image.
- Idlib is a critical and unstable region where Jolani's group holds significant power and influence.
- There is debate among international actors about the potential necessity of engaging with Jolani despite his terrorist designation.
- The documentary provides a rare, direct insight into the mindset and motivations of a senior jihadist leader.
- The ongoing conflict in Syria is deeply intertwined with regional politics, historical grievances, and international interventions.
Summary
- Abu Mohammad al-Jolani, a former Al-Qaeda commander with a $10 million US bounty, speaks to a Western reporter for the first time.
- He leads Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, the dominant Islamist faction in Syria's Idlib province, which serves as the last opposition stronghold.
- Jolani denies posing a threat to Western societies and claims to have broken ties with Al-Qaeda and ISIS.
- The documentary explores his past involvement in jihad in Iraq and Syria, including accusations of terror and torture.
- The region's complex history and conflicts over the past decades are examined to understand why many joined jihadist groups.
- Idlib is depicted as a fragile safe haven for refugees, with Jolani's forces backed by Turkey preventing further migration.
- Some US officials consider cooperating with Jolani as the least bad option to manage the conflict in Idlib.
- The film includes testimonies from Jolani's critics and victims, challenging his denials of torture and violence.
- Jolani's personal background, including his family's displacement from the Golan Heights and his early political influences, is detailed.
- The documentary covers the broader geopolitical context, including Syria's Assad regime's role in encouraging jihadists to fight US forces.
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker B
You're a wanted man. There's a $10 million price tag on your head.
Speaker A
A former Al-Qaeda commander says he's changed.
Speaker A
Speaking to a Western reporter for the first time.
Speaker B
How is it that somebody is going to want to trust you?
Speaker A
Now on Frontline, correspondent Martin Smith investigates The Jihadist.
Speaker A
I'm flying over Southern Turkey.
Speaker A
I'm on my way to Syria to meet one of the most wanted men in the world.
Speaker B
You have not spoken to an American reporter in the past.
Speaker C
No, this is the first time.
Speaker B
So why have you chosen now to speak to the United States?
Speaker C
No particular reason, really. You requested the interview and we agreed to it. That's all there is to it.
Speaker A
His name is Abu Mohammad al-Jolani. As a former Al-Qaeda leader, the US has a $10 million reward for information leading to his capture.
Speaker A
He heads the Organization for the Liberation of the Levant, Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, the most powerful Islamist faction in Syria.
Speaker A
He has agreed to meet because he is trying to overhaul his image.
Speaker A
In the past, he's battled Americans in Iraq. He's deployed suicide bombers in Syria.
Speaker A
And to this day, he stands accused of imprisoning and torturing his critics.
Speaker B
You're recognized, you're designated as a terrorist by the United States, by the United Nations, by many governments.
Speaker B
What do you say to them?
Speaker C
That is an unfair characterization.
Speaker C
It's a political label that carries no truth or credibility.
Speaker C
We haven't posed any threat to Western or European society.
Speaker C
No security threat, no economic threat, nothing.
Speaker A
We sat down together in a secure location in Idlib Province in Northwest Syria.
Speaker A
He insists that today Americans should trust him.
Speaker B
You pledged allegiance to Al-Qaeda. You worked with Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the Emir of ISIS.
Speaker B
So for you to say that you were not committed to fighting Americans when that's in your past is impossible for people to understand.
Speaker C
This issue needs a closer look.
Speaker C
We need to consider the recent history of the region and what it went through over the past 20, 30 years.
Speaker C
We're talking about a region ruled by tyrants, by people who rule with an iron fist.
Speaker C
And this region is surrounded by numerous conflicts and wars.
Speaker C
There are thousands who joined Al-Qaeda.
Speaker B
But why did they join Al-Qaeda? That's the question.
Speaker A
I came to this story fully aware of the controversy it would generate.
Speaker A
I would be speaking to a designated terrorist.
Speaker A
But after 20 years of covering the region, I thought this was an important opportunity.
Speaker A
Since Bin Laden in 1998, no senior Al-Qaeda leader has agreed to a televised interview with a Western reporter.
Speaker A
Today, Jolani, who says he's long since broken with Al-Qaeda, controls Syria's last opposition stronghold.
Speaker A
A safe haven for refugees from around the country.
Speaker A
If he falls, many more migrants could flood north.
Speaker C
We don't have anything to defend. What should we do?
Speaker C
Die?
Speaker C
Die or leave Syria?
Speaker C
We'll tear down that Turkish wall to get through.
Speaker A
Jolani's 10,000-plus man army, effectively backed by Turkey, is now the only thing that prevents it.
Speaker A
There are some people in Washington who think it may be wise to work with Jolani.
Speaker A
Including a top American diplomat in the region during the Bush, Obama, and Trump administrations, James Jeffrey.
Speaker B
He's the least bad option of the various options on Idlib, which is one of the most important places in Syria.
Speaker B
When there is not the normal setup of nation states and of international norms and rules, you wind up with groups like this that do things you don't like.
Speaker B
But in the here and now, out of folks you have to deal with to avoid even worse things.
Speaker A
How can you trust somebody that's just trying to survive and continue to remain in power?
Speaker A
There are people that have met Jolani who are saying, we should give him a chance.
Speaker D
I think it's letting him and the organization off the hook.
Speaker C
This is the center of Idlib.
Speaker C
It's not New York's Times Square.
Speaker A
I spent seven days in Idlib, seeing, of course, what Jolani wanted me to see.
Speaker C
I was close by when this place got hit.
Speaker A
And hearing what he wanted me to hear.
Speaker C
This type of trip has its risks.
Speaker C
Could be ISIS, could be the regime, could be Russian agents.
Speaker A
I also spoke to his critics and his victims.
Speaker A
Jolani told me that we don't torture. There is no torture in our prisons.
Speaker E
That's a difficult one to believe.
Speaker E
I mean, we have testimony that says otherwise.
Speaker F
There is torture, and it's brutal torture.
Speaker F
There are barbaric methods being used by these criminals, these terrorists.
Speaker A
Jolani, they say, is a man that can't be trusted.
Speaker A
I've come here to investigate.
Speaker C
You endured migration, struggle, living in tents, and fleeing your country.
Speaker C
So you don't have to live under the regime of a tyrant, correct?
Speaker C
But we believe life here is temporary.
Speaker C
And our return is inevitable.
Speaker A
He was born in 1982 and grew up in Damascus.
Speaker A
His birth name was Ahmad Hussein al-Shara.
Speaker A
But long before Ahmad was born, he says his family was shaped by conflict.
Speaker A
The al-Sharas had fled their home during the 1967 Arab-Israeli War.
Speaker C
We are from a family originally from the now-occupied Golan Heights.
Speaker C
My grandfather, my father's father, was displaced from the Golan in 1967.
Speaker C
After the Israeli Zionist army entered the area.
Speaker A
Years later, Ahmad took the nom de guerre Abu Mohammad al-Jolani.
Speaker A
Jolani is a reference to the Golan Heights.
Speaker A
As a teenager, he worked in his father's grocery store in Damascus.
Speaker A
But like other young men of his generation, he was drawn to politics through religion.
Speaker A
He also says he was influenced by the Second Palestinian Intifada of the early 2000s.
Speaker C
I was 17 or 18 years old at the time and I started thinking about how to fulfill my duties defending a people who are oppressed by occupiers and invaders.
Speaker B
And at that point in your life, that was 2000, approximately, just before 9/11.
Speaker C
Anyone who lived in the Islamic or Arab world at the time who tells you he wasn't happy about it would be lying.
Speaker C
But people regret the killing of innocent people, for sure.
Speaker A
Of course, people everywhere abhorred 9/11.
Speaker A
After 9/11, few Arabs went to Afghanistan to defend the Taliban.
Speaker A
The Taliban fell in a matter of months.
Speaker A
But as America prepared to invade Iraq nearly two years later.
Speaker A
Syrian President Bashar al-Assad saw an opportunity to punish America.
Speaker A
Assad encouraged young men from all over the Arab world to come fight the US.
Speaker D
So if you wanted to go try your chance at killing Americans, you could fly into Damascus Airport and you could go to a Jihadi sign up.
Speaker D
That was run by the government of Syria. They used to have it at at Damascus Fairgrounds.
Speaker D
You'd go there and they'd put you on a minibus and bring you to Baghdad.
Speaker D
So this wasn't an underground railroad.
Speaker D
There were tons of people who were coming in.
Speaker A
There was even a recruitment center where Americans wouldn't miss it.
Speaker G
These volunteers were collected out in front of the American Embassy in Damascus.
Speaker G
And they recruited people to go to fight. And the fact that they were gathering people by the busload in front of the embassy was a message to the diplomats inside.
Speaker G
I was at the embassy and it raised a lot of eyebrows amongst other things that I'm sure a flurry of cables back to Washington.
Speaker C
I went to Baghdad around two to three weeks before the war started.
Speaker C
So I was in Baghdad when the war began.
Speaker A
I entered Iraq two weeks later with a group of returning Iraqi exiles.
Speaker A
As we drove into Baghdad, the bombed-out hulks of Iraqi tanks and anti-aircraft guns littered the sides of the highways.
Speaker A
In the city center, buildings had been blasted by missiles.
Speaker A
The widespread looting prompted an unfortunate US response.
Speaker A
We came upon this group of US soldiers destroying a car belonging to a suspected looter.
Speaker A
The car turned out to be his taxi cab.
Speaker A
The US military and the US government were woefully unprepared to deal with the reality on the ground in Iraq.
Speaker B
I cannot begin to describe the idiocy of this whole endeavor.
Speaker A
Jolani was around 21 when he joined the insurgency led by a Jordanian Abu Musab al-Zarqawi.
Speaker A
Jolani says he never met him.
Speaker D
The leader of Al-Qaeda in Iraq, Zarqawi, he's doing roadside bombs and sniping.
Speaker D
And they were attacking Americans in villages and towns, ambushes.
Speaker D
Anything they could think of.
Speaker D
To wear down American dedication or commitment.
Speaker A
Jolani claimed he was opposed to these tactics.
Speaker A
It was hard to believe.
Speaker A
One of Zarqawi's core goals in Iraq was to attack civilians in order to ignite sectarian civil war.
Speaker C
We were against killing innocent people.
Speaker C
I wasn't alone.
Speaker C
Many of us with a conscience and a true understanding of Islam were against the killing of any innocent person.
Speaker C
Even in cases where killing many enemies was going to cause the death of one innocent person, we were against it.
Speaker B
Why didn't you quit then? I mean, why, why stay with an army whose major tactic is to do mass suicide bombings that inevitably or intentionally killed civilians?
Speaker C
We were always asking the same question.
Speaker A
The Americans will say, you know, they came to liberate Iraq.
Speaker A
And had you not resisted that constant car bombings, IEDs, snipers, all of that, there would not have been so much bloodshed.
Speaker C
And if there was no American presence, there would not have been a resistance.
Speaker A
Can we learn anything about Jolani from the fact that he had gone there and linked up with this group?
Speaker D
I think we know that he is committed to the Jihad. We know that he is committed to not only repelling the Crusaders, the Americans, but also to this sort of austere ideology being promoted by Al-Qaeda for a reversion to the old type of Islamic society.
Speaker D
So they killed Shiites, right, or infidels or apostates. And we see they, they also kill with some frequency Sunnis, who are not adhering to the precepts of Islam.
Speaker D
They're all apostates, they're all the enemy.
Speaker A
In 2017, Jolani joined a coalition of factions called Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, or HTS.
Speaker A
And Jolani claimed he was going through a major transformation.
Speaker A
HTS, he said, was not ISIS.
Speaker A
We need to take care of matters related to Muslims.
Speaker A
Everything we're building will reach all Muslims, my brothers.
Speaker E
I think Jabhat al-Nusra at the very early stages of its existence did exhibit practices that were similar to ISIS.
Speaker E
But Jabhat al-Nusra has now partially or fully transformed into Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, which split from Al-Qaeda, would save face.
Speaker E
It would enable him to to establish relations with other political groups and political parties, foreign players, Turkey, for example, which borders Idlib Province.
Speaker E
So there are all sorts of practical reasons for a split from Al-Qaeda.
Speaker A
Jolani then went to war against Al-Qaeda, ISIS, and other fellow jihadis.
Speaker D
They started going against other Islamist groups because they felt that they were rivals. They wanted to have a monopoly in violence essentially in the area.
Speaker A
Two weeks after my first interview with Jolani, he agreed to sit down again.
Speaker B
You fought against our Al-Sham, you fought against those who stayed with Al-Qaeda, the Ras al-Din, and ISIS, of course, and even the Free Syrian Army that was backed by the CIA.
Speaker B
How much blood and treasure was spilled in that time?
Speaker C
Each of those is a separate story that would take a long time.
Speaker C
But to sum it up, though we tried hard to avoid this confrontation, it was inevitable.
Speaker A
What is it about Jolani, do you think, that allowed him to be the one that came out on top of all of this?
Speaker D
He clearly has survival instincts because it's been a very bloody civil war.
Speaker D
Jolani has gone where the wind has blown in many respects over time to try and survive different challenges that have come up at various points within the last 10 years.
Speaker C
Those who follow God are victorious. The equation is simple.
Speaker A
In 2017, Jolani joined a coalition of factions called Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, or HTS.
Speaker A
And Jolani claimed he was going through a major transformation.
Speaker A
HTS, he said, was not ISIS.
Speaker A
We need to take care of matters related to Muslims.
Speaker A
Everything we're building will reach all Muslims, my brothers.
Speaker E
I think Jabhat al-Nusra at the very early stages of its existence did exhibit practices that were similar to ISIS.
Speaker E
But Jabhat al-Nusra has now partially or fully transformed into Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, which split from Al-Qaeda, would save face.
Speaker E
It would enable him to to establish relations with other political groups and political parties, foreign players, Turkey, for example, which borders Idlib Province.
Speaker E
So there are all sorts of practical reasons for a split from Al-Qaeda.
Speaker A
Jolani then went to war against Al-Qaeda, ISIS, and other fellow jihadis.
Speaker D
They started going against other Islamist groups because they felt that they were rivals. They wanted to have a monopoly in violence essentially in the area.
Speaker A
Two weeks after my first interview with Jolani, he agreed to sit down again.
Speaker B
You fought against our Al-Sham, you fought against those who stayed with Al-Qaeda, the Ras al-Din, and ISIS, of course, and even the Free Syrian Army that was backed by the CIA.
Speaker B
How much blood and treasure was spilled in that time?
Speaker C
Each of those is a separate story that would take a long time.
Speaker C
But to sum it up, though we tried hard to avoid this confrontation, it was inevitable.
Speaker A
What is it about Jolani, do you think, that allowed him to be the one that came out on top of all of this?
Speaker D
He clearly has survival instincts because it's been a very bloody civil war.
Speaker D
Jolani has gone where the wind has blown in many respects over time to try and survive different challenges that have come up at various points within the last 10 years.
Speaker C
Those who follow God are victorious. The equation is simple.
Speaker A
In 2017, Jolani joined a coalition of factions called Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, or HTS.
Speaker A
And Jolani claimed he was going through a major transformation.
Speaker A
HTS, he said, was not ISIS.
Speaker A
We need to take care of matters related to Muslims.
Speaker A
Everything we're building will reach all Muslims, my brothers.
Speaker E
I think Jabhat al-Nusra at the very early stages of its existence did exhibit practices that were similar to ISIS.
Speaker E
But Jabhat al-Nusra has now partially or fully transformed into Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, which split from Al-Qaeda, would save face.
Speaker E
So there are all sorts of practical reasons for a split from Al-Qaeda.
Speaker A
Jolani then went to war against Al-Qaeda, ISIS, and other fellow jihadis.
Speaker D
They started going against other Islamist groups because they felt that they were rivals. They wanted to have a monopoly in violence essentially in the area.
Speaker A
Two weeks after my first interview with Jolani, he agreed to sit down again.
Speaker B
You fought against our Al-Sham, you fought against those who stayed with Al-Qaeda, the Ras al-Din, and ISIS, of course, and even the Free Syrian Army that was backed by the CIA.
Speaker B
How much blood and treasure was spilled in that time?
Speaker C
Each of those is a separate story that would take a long time.
Speaker C
But to sum it up, though we tried hard to avoid this confrontation, it was inevitable.
Speaker A
What is it about Jolani, do you think, that allowed him to be the one that came out on top of all of this?
Speaker D
He clearly has survival instincts because it's been a very bloody civil war.
Speaker D
Jolani has gone where the wind has blown in many respects over time to try and survive different challenges that have come up at various points within the last 10 years.
Speaker C
Those who follow God are victorious. The equation is simple.
Speaker A
In 2017, Jolani joined a coalition of factions called Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, or HTS.
Speaker A
And Jolani claimed he was going through a major transformation.
Speaker A
HTS, he said, was not ISIS.
Speaker A
We need to take care of matters related to Muslims.
Speaker A
Everything we're building will reach all Muslims, my brothers.
Speaker E
I think Jabhat al-Nusra at the very early stages of its existence did exhibit practices that were similar to ISIS.
Speaker E
But Jabhat al-Nusra has now partially or fully transformed into Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, which split from Al-Qaeda, would save face.
Speaker E
So there are all sorts of practical reasons for a split from Al-Qaeda.
Speaker A
Jolani then went to war against Al-Qaeda, ISIS, and other fellow jihadis.
Speaker D
They started going against other Islamist groups because they felt that they were rivals. They wanted to have a monopoly in violence essentially in the area.
Speaker A
Two weeks after my first interview with Jolani, he agreed to sit down again.
Speaker B
You fought against our Al-Sham, you fought against those who stayed with Al-Qaeda, the Ras al-Din, and ISIS, of course, and even the Free Syrian Army that was backed by the CIA.
Speaker B
How much blood and treasure was spilled in that time?
Speaker C
Each of those is a separate story that would take a long time.
Speaker C
But to sum it up, though we tried hard to avoid this confrontation, it was inevitable.
Speaker A
What is it about Jolani, do you think, that allowed him to be the one that came out on top of all of this?
Speaker D
He clearly has survival instincts because it's been a very bloody civil war.
Speaker D
Jolani has gone where the wind has blown in many respects over time to try and survive different challenges that have come up at various points within the last 10 years.
Speaker C
Those who follow God are victorious. The equation is simple.
Speaker A
In 2017, Jolani joined a coalition of factions called Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, or HTS.
Speaker A
And Jolani claimed he was going through a major transformation.
Speaker A
HTS, he said, was not ISIS.
Speaker A
We need to take care of matters related to Muslims.
Speaker A
Everything we're building will reach all Muslims, my brothers.
Speaker E
I think Jabhat al-Nusra at the very early stages of its existence did exhibit practices that were similar to ISIS.
Speaker E
But Jabhat al-Nusra has now partially or fully transformed into Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, which split from Al-Qaeda, would save face.
Speaker E
So there are all sorts of practical reasons for a split from Al-Qaeda.
Speaker A
Jolani then went to war against Al-Qaeda, ISIS, and other fellow jihadis.
Speaker D
They started going against other Islamist groups because they felt that they were rivals. They wanted to have a monopoly in violence essentially in the area.
Speaker A
Two weeks after my first interview with Jolani, he agreed to sit down again.
Speaker B
You fought against our Al-Sham, you fought against those who stayed with Al-Qaeda, the Ras al-Din, and ISIS, of course, and even the Free Syrian Army that was backed by the CIA.
Speaker B
How much blood and treasure was spilled in that time?
Speaker C
Each of those is a separate story that would take a long time.
Speaker C
But to sum it up, though we tried hard to avoid this confrontation, it was inevitable.
Speaker A
What is it about Jolani, do you think, that allowed him to be the one that came out on top of all of this?
Speaker D
He clearly has survival instincts because it's been a very bloody civil war.
Speaker D
Jolani has gone where the wind has blown in many respects over time to try and survive different challenges that have come up at various points within the last 10 years.
Speaker C
Those who follow God are victorious. The equation is simple.
Speaker A
In 2017, Jolani joined a coalition of factions called Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, or HTS.
Speaker A
And Jolani claimed he was going through a major transformation.
Speaker A
HTS, he said, was not ISIS.
Speaker A
We need to take care of matters related to Muslims.
Speaker A
Everything we're building will reach all Muslims, my brothers.
Speaker E
I think Jabhat al-Nusra at the very early stages of its existence did exhibit practices that were similar to ISIS.
Speaker E
But Jabhat al-Nusra has now partially or fully transformed into Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, which split from Al-Qaeda, would save face.
Speaker E
So there are all sorts of practical reasons for a split from Al-Qaeda.
Speaker A
Jolani then went to war against Al-Qaeda, ISIS, and other fellow jihadis.
Speaker D
They started going against other Islamist groups because they felt that they were rivals. They wanted to have a monopoly in violence essentially in the area.
Speaker A
Two weeks after my first interview with Jolani, he agreed to sit down again.
Speaker B
You fought against our Al-Sham, you fought against those who stayed with Al-Qaeda, the Ras al-Din, and ISIS, of course, and even the Free Syrian Army that was backed by the CIA.
Speaker B
How much blood and treasure was spilled in that time?
Speaker C
Each of those is a separate story that would take a long time.
Speaker C
But to sum it up, though we tried hard to avoid this confrontation, it was inevitable.
Speaker A
What is it about Jolani, do you think, that allowed him to be the one that came out on top of all of this?
Speaker D
He clearly has survival instincts because it's been a very bloody civil war.
Speaker D
Jolani has gone where the wind has blown in many respects over time to try and survive different challenges that have come up at various points within the last 10 years.
Speaker C
Those who follow God are victorious. The equation is simple.
Speaker A
In 2017, Jolani joined a coalition of factions called Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, or HTS.
Speaker A
And Jolani claimed he was going through a major transformation.
Speaker A
HTS, he said, was not ISIS.
Speaker A
We need to take care of matters related to Muslims.
Speaker A
Everything we're building will reach all Muslims, my brothers.
Speaker E
I think Jabhat al-Nusra at the very early stages of its existence did exhibit practices that were similar to ISIS.
Speaker E
But Jabhat al-Nusra has now partially or fully transformed into Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, which split from Al-Qaeda, would save face.
Speaker E
So there are all sorts of practical reasons for a split from Al-Qaeda.
Speaker A
Jolani then went to war against Al-Qaeda, ISIS, and other fellow jihadis.
Speaker D
They started going against other Islamist groups because they felt that they were rivals. They wanted to have a monopoly in violence essentially in the area.
Speaker A
Two weeks after my first interview with Jolani, he agreed to sit down again.
Speaker B
You fought against our Al-Sham, you fought against those who stayed with Al-Qaeda, the Ras al-Din, and ISIS, of course, and even the Free Syrian Army that was backed by the CIA.
Speaker B
How much blood and treasure was spilled in that time?
Speaker C
Each of those is a separate story that would take a long time.
Speaker C
But to sum it up, though we tried hard to avoid this confrontation, it was inevitable.
Speaker A
What is it about Jolani, do you think, that allowed him to be the one that came out on top of all of this?
Speaker D
He clearly has survival instincts because it's been a very bloody civil war.
Speaker D
Jolani has gone where the wind has blown in many respects over time to try and survive different challenges that have come up at various points within the last 10 years.
Speaker C
Those who follow God are victorious. The equation is simple.
Speaker A
In 2017, Jolani joined a coalition of factions called Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, or HTS.
Speaker A
And Jolani claimed he was going through a major transformation.
Speaker A
HTS, he said, was not ISIS.
Speaker A
We need to take care of matters related to Muslims.
Speaker A
Everything we're building will reach all Muslims, my brothers.
Speaker E
I think Jabhat al-Nusra at the very early stages of its existence did exhibit practices that were similar to ISIS.
Speaker E
But Jabhat al-Nusra has now partially or fully transformed into Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, which split from Al-Qaeda, would save face.
Speaker E
So there are all sorts of practical reasons for a split from Al-Qaeda.
Speaker A
Jolani then went to war against Al-Qaeda, ISIS, and other fellow jihadis.
Speaker D
They started going against other Islamist groups because they felt that they were rivals. They wanted to have a monopoly in violence essentially in the area.
Speaker A
Two weeks after my first interview with Jolani, he agreed to sit down again.
Speaker B
You fought against our Al-Sham, you fought against those who stayed with Al-Qaeda, the Ras al-Din, and ISIS, of course, and even the Free Syrian Army that was backed by the CIA.
Speaker B
How much blood and treasure was spilled in that time?
Speaker C
Each of those is a separate story that would take a long time.
Speaker C
But to sum it up, though we tried hard to avoid this confrontation, it was inevitable.
Speaker A
What is it about Jolani, do you think, that allowed him to be the one that came out on top of all of this?
Speaker D
He clearly has survival instincts because it's been a very bloody civil war.
Speaker D
Jolani has gone where the wind has blown in many respects over time to try and survive different challenges that have come up at various points within the last 10 years.
Speaker C
Those who follow God are victorious. The equation is simple.
Speaker A
In 2017, Jolani joined a coalition of factions called Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, or HTS.
Speaker A
And Jolani claimed he was going through a major transformation.
Speaker A
HTS, he said, was not ISIS.
Speaker A
We need to take care of matters related to Muslims.
Speaker A
Everything we're building will reach all Muslims, my brothers.
Speaker E
I think Jabhat al-Nusra at the very early stages of its existence did exhibit practices that were similar to ISIS.
Speaker E
But Jabhat al-Nusra has now partially or fully transformed into Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, which split from Al-Qaeda, would save face.
Speaker E
So there are all sorts of practical reasons for a split from Al-Qaeda.
Speaker A
Jolani then went to war against Al-Qaeda, ISIS, and other fellow jihadis.
Speaker D
They started going against other Islamist groups because they felt that they were rivals. They wanted to have a monopoly in violence essentially in the area.
Speaker A
Two weeks after my first interview with Jolani, he agreed to sit down again.
Speaker B
You fought against our Al-Sham, you fought against those who stayed with Al-Qaeda, the Ras al-Din, and ISIS, of course, and even the Free Syrian Army that was backed by the CIA.
Speaker B
How much blood and treasure was spilled in that time?
Speaker C
Each of those is a separate story that would take a long time.
Speaker C
But to sum it up, though we tried hard to avoid this confrontation, it was inevitable.
Speaker A
What is it about Jolani, do you think, that allowed him to be the one that came out on top of all of this?
Speaker D
He clearly has survival instincts because it's been a very bloody civil war.
Speaker D
Jolani has gone where the wind has blown in many respects over time to try and survive different challenges that have come up at various points within the last 10 years.
Speaker C
Those who follow God are victorious. The equation is simple.
Speaker A
In 2017, Jolani joined a coalition of factions called Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, or HTS.
Speaker A
And Jolani claimed he was going through a major transformation.
Speaker A
HTS, he said, was not ISIS.
Speaker A
We need to take care of matters related to Muslims.
Speaker A
Everything we're building will reach all Muslims, my brothers.
Speaker E
I think Jabhat al-Nusra at the very early stages of its existence did exhibit practices that were similar to ISIS.
Speaker E
But Jabhat al-Nusra has now partially or fully transformed into Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, which split from Al-Qaeda, would save face.
Speaker E
So there are all sorts of practical reasons for a split from Al-Qaeda.
Speaker A
Jolani then went to war against Al-Qaeda, ISIS, and other fellow jihadis.
Speaker D
They started going against other Islamist groups because they felt that they were rivals. They wanted to have a monopoly in violence essentially in the area.
Speaker A
Two weeks after my first interview with Jolani, he agreed to sit down again.
Speaker B
You fought against our Al-Sham, you fought against those who stayed with Al-Qaeda, the Ras al-Din, and ISIS, of course, and even the Free Syrian Army that was backed by the CIA.
Speaker B
How much blood and treasure was spilled in that time?
Speaker C
Each of those is a separate story that would take a long time.
Speaker C
But to sum it up, though we tried hard to avoid this confrontation, it was inevitable.
Speaker A
What is it about Jolani, do you think, that allowed him to be the one that came out on top of all of this?
Speaker D
He clearly has survival instincts because it's been a very bloody civil war.
Speaker D
Jolani has gone where the wind has blown in many respects over time to try and survive different challenges that have come up at various points within the last 10 years.
Speaker C
Those who follow God are victorious. The equation is simple.
Speaker A
In 2017, Jolani joined a coalition of factions called Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, or HTS.
Speaker A
And Jolani claimed he was going through a major transformation.
Speaker A
HTS, he said, was not ISIS.
Speaker A
We need to take care of matters related to Muslims.
Speaker A
Everything we're building will reach all Muslims, my brothers.
Speaker E
I think Jabhat al-Nusra at the very early stages of its existence did exhibit practices that were similar to ISIS.
Speaker E
But Jabhat al-Nusra has now partially or fully transformed into Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, which split from Al-Qaeda, would save face.
Speaker E
So there are all sorts of practical reasons for a split from Al-Qaeda.
Speaker A
Jolani then went to war against Al-Qaeda, ISIS, and other fellow jihadis.
Speaker D
They started going against other Islamist groups because they felt that they were rivals. They wanted to have a monopoly in violence essentially in the area.
Speaker A
Two weeks after my first interview with Jolani, he agreed to sit down again.
Speaker B
You fought against our Al-Sham, you fought against those who stayed with Al-Qaeda, the Ras al-Din, and ISIS, of course, and even the Free Syrian Army that was backed by the CIA.
Speaker B
How much blood and treasure was spilled in that time?
Speaker C
Each of those is a separate story that would take a long time.
Speaker C
But to sum it up, though we tried hard to avoid this confrontation, it was inevitable.
Speaker A
What is it about Jolani, do you think, that allowed him to be the one that came out on top of all of this?
Speaker D
He clearly has survival instincts because it's been a very bloody civil war.
Speaker D
Jolani has gone where the wind has blown in many respects over time to try and survive different challenges that have come up at various points within the last 10 years.
Speaker C
Those who follow God are victorious. The equation is simple.
Speaker A
In 2017, Jolani joined a coalition of factions called Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, or HTS.
Speaker A
And Jolani claimed he was going through a major transformation.
Speaker A
HTS, he said, was not ISIS.
Speaker A
We need to take care of matters related to Muslims.
Speaker A
Everything we're building will reach all Muslims, my brothers.
Speaker E
I think Jabhat al-Nusra at the very early stages of its existence did exhibit practices that were similar to ISIS.
Speaker E
But Jabhat al-Nusra has now partially or fully transformed into Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, which split from Al-Qaeda, would save face.
Speaker E
So there are all sorts of practical reasons for a split from Al-Qaeda.
Speaker A
Jolani then went to war against Al-Qaeda, ISIS, and other fellow jihadis.
Speaker D
They started going against other Islamist groups because they felt that they were rivals. They wanted to have a monopoly in violence essentially in the area.
Speaker A
Two weeks after my first interview with Jolani, he agreed to sit down again.
Speaker B
You fought against our Al-Sham, you fought against those who stayed with Al-Qaeda, the Ras al-Din, and ISIS, of course, and even the Free Syrian Army that was backed by the CIA.
Speaker B
How much blood and treasure was spilled in that time?
Speaker C
Each of those is a separate story that would take a long time.
Speaker C
But to sum it up, though we tried hard to avoid this confrontation, it was inevitable.
Speaker A
What is it about Jolani, do you think, that allowed him to be the one that came out on top of all of this?
Speaker D
He clearly has survival instincts because it's been a very bloody civil war.
Speaker D
Jolani has gone where the wind has blown in many respects over time to try and survive different challenges that have come up at various points within the last 10 years.
Speaker C
Those who follow God are victorious. The equation is simple.
Speaker A
In 2017, Jolani joined a coalition of factions called Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, or HTS.
Speaker A
And Jolani claimed he was going through a major transformation.
Speaker A
HTS, he said, was not ISIS.
Speaker A
We need to take care of matters related to Muslims.
Speaker A
Everything we're building will reach all Muslims, my brothers.
Speaker E
I think Jabhat al-Nusra at the very early stages of its existence did exhibit practices that were similar to ISIS.
Speaker E
But Jabhat al-Nusra has now partially or fully transformed into Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, which split from Al-Qaeda, would save face.
Speaker E
So there are all sorts of practical reasons for a split from Al-Qaeda.
Speaker A
Jolani then went to war against Al-Qaeda, ISIS, and other fellow jihadis.
Speaker D
They started going against other Islamist groups because they felt that they were rivals. They wanted to have a monopoly in violence essentially in the area.
Speaker A
Two weeks after my first interview with Jolani, he agreed to sit down again.
Speaker B
You fought against our Al-Sham, you fought against those who stayed with Al-Qaeda, the Ras al-Din, and ISIS, of course, and even the Free Syrian Army that was backed by the CIA.
Speaker B
How much blood and treasure was spilled in that time?
Speaker C
Each of those is a separate story that would take a long time.
Speaker C
But to sum it up, though we tried hard to avoid this confrontation, it was inevitable.
Speaker A
What is it about Jolani, do you think, that allowed him to be the one that came out on top of all of this?
Speaker D
He clearly has survival instincts because it's been a very bloody civil war.
Speaker D
Jolani has gone where the wind has blown in many respects over time to try and survive different challenges that have come up at various points within the last 10 years.
Speaker C
Those who follow God are victorious. The equation is simple.
Speaker A
In 2017, Jolani joined a coalition of factions called Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, or HTS.
Speaker A
And Jolani claimed he was going through a major transformation.
Speaker A
HTS, he said, was not ISIS.
Speaker A
We need to take care of matters related to Muslims.
Speaker A
Everything we're building will reach all Muslims, my brothers.
Speaker E
I think Jabhat al-Nusra at the very early stages of its existence did exhibit practices that were similar to ISIS.
Speaker E
But Jabhat al-Nusra has now partially or fully transformed into Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, which split from Al-Qaeda, would save face.
Speaker E
So there are all sorts of practical reasons for a split from Al-Qaeda.
Speaker A
Jolani then went to war against Al-Qaeda, ISIS, and other fellow jihadis.
Speaker D
They started going against other Islamist groups because they felt that they were rivals. They wanted to have a monopoly in violence essentially in the area.
Speaker A
Two weeks after my first interview with Jolani, he agreed to sit down again.
Speaker B
You fought against our Al-Sham, you fought against those who stayed with Al-Qaeda, the Ras al-Din, and ISIS, of course, and even the Free Syrian Army that was backed by the CIA.
Speaker B
How much blood and treasure was spilled in that time?
Speaker C
Each of those is a separate story that would take a long time.
Speaker C
But to sum it up, though we tried hard to avoid this confrontation, it was inevitable.
Speaker A
What is it about Jolani, do you think, that allowed him to be the one that came out on top of all of this?
Speaker D
He clearly has survival instincts because it's been a very bloody civil war.
Speaker D
Jolani has gone where the wind has blown in many respects over time to try and survive different challenges that have come up at various points within the last 10 years.
Speaker C
Those who follow God are victorious. The equation is simple.
Speaker A
In 2017, Jolani joined a coalition of factions called Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, or HTS.
Speaker A
And Jolani claimed he was going through a major transformation.
Speaker A
HTS, he said, was not ISIS.
Speaker A
We need to take care of matters related to Muslims.
Speaker A
Everything we're building will reach all Muslims, my brothers.
Speaker E
I think Jabhat al-Nusra at the very early stages of its existence did exhibit practices that were similar to ISIS.
Speaker E
But Jabhat al-Nusra has now partially or fully transformed into Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, which split from Al-Qaeda, would save face.
Speaker E
So there are all sorts of practical reasons for a split from Al-Qaeda.
Speaker A
Jolani then went to war against Al-Qaeda, ISIS, and other fellow jihadis.
Speaker D
They started going against other Islamist groups because they felt that they were rivals. They wanted to have a monopoly in violence essentially in the area.
Speaker A
Two weeks after my first interview with Jolani, he agreed to sit down again.
Speaker B
You fought against our Al-Sham, you fought against those who stayed with Al-Qaeda, the Ras al-Din, and ISIS, of course, and even the Free Syrian Army that was backed by the CIA.
Speaker B
How much blood and treasure was spilled in that time?
Speaker C
Each of those is a separate story that would take a long time.
Speaker C
But to sum it up, though we tried hard to avoid this confrontation, it was inevitable.
Speaker A
What is it about Jolani, do you think, that allowed him to be the one that came out on top of all of this?
Speaker D
He clearly has survival instincts because it's been a very bloody civil war.
Speaker D
Jolani has gone where the wind has blown in many respects over time to try and survive different challenges that have come up at various points within the last 10 years.
Speaker C
Those who follow God are victorious. The equation is simple.
Speaker A
In 2017, Jolani joined a coalition of factions called Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, or HTS.
Speaker A
And Jolani claimed he was going through a major transformation.
Speaker A
HTS, he said, was not ISIS.
Speaker A
We need to take care of matters related to Muslims.
Speaker A
Everything we're building will reach all Muslims, my brothers.
Speaker E
I think Jabhat al-Nusra at the very early stages of its existence did exhibit practices that were similar to ISIS.
Speaker E
But Jabhat al-Nusra has now partially or fully transformed into Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, which split from Al-Qaeda, would save face.
Speaker E
So there are all sorts of practical reasons for a split from Al-Qaeda.
Speaker A
Jolani then went to war against Al-Qaeda, ISIS, and other fellow jihadis.
Speaker D
They started going against other Islamist groups because they felt that they were rivals. They wanted to have a monopoly in violence essentially in the area.
Speaker A
Two weeks after my first interview with Jolani, he agreed to sit down again.
Speaker B
You fought against our Al-Sham, you fought against those who stayed with Al-Qaeda, the Ras al-Din, and ISIS, of course, and even the Free Syrian Army that was backed by the CIA.
Speaker B
How much blood and treasure was spilled in that time?
Speaker C
Each of those is a separate story that would take a long time.
Speaker C
But to sum it up, though we tried hard to avoid this confrontation, it was inevitable.
Speaker A
What is it about Jolani, do you think, that allowed him to be the one that came out on top of all of this?
Speaker D
He clearly has survival instincts because it's been a very bloody civil war.
Speaker D
Jolani has gone where the wind has blown in many respects over time to try and survive different challenges that have come up at various points within the last 10 years.
Speaker C
Those who follow God are victorious. The equation is simple.
Speaker A
In 2017, Jolani joined a coalition of factions called Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, or HTS.
Speaker A
And Jolani claimed he was going through a major transformation.
Speaker A
HTS, he said, was not ISIS.
Speaker A
We need to take care of matters related to Muslims.
Speaker A
Everything we're building will reach all Muslims, my brothers.
Speaker E
I think Jabhat al-Nusra at the very early stages of its existence did exhibit practices that were similar to ISIS.
Speaker E
But Jabhat al-Nusra has now partially or fully transformed into Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, which split from Al-Qaeda, would save face.
Speaker E
So there are all sorts of practical reasons for a split from Al-Qaeda.
Speaker A
Jolani then went to war against Al-Qaeda, ISIS, and other fellow jihadis.
Speaker D
They started going against other Islamist groups because they felt that they were rivals. They wanted to have a monopoly in violence essentially in the area.
Speaker A
Two weeks after my first interview with Jolani, he agreed to sit down again.
Speaker B
You fought against our Al-Sham, you fought against those who stayed with Al-Qaeda, the Ras al-Din, and ISIS, of course, and even the Free Syrian Army that was backed by the CIA.
Speaker B
How much blood and treasure was spilled in that time?
Speaker C
Each of those is a separate story that would take a long time.
Speaker C
But to sum it up, though we tried hard to avoid this confrontation, it was inevitable.
Speaker A
What is it about Jolani, do you think, that allowed him to be the one that came out on top of all of this?
Speaker D
He clearly has survival instincts because it's been a very bloody civil war.
Speaker D
Jolani has gone where the wind has blown in many respects over time to try and survive different challenges that have come up at various points within the last 10 years.
Speaker C
Those who follow God are victorious. The equation is simple.
Speaker A
In 2017, Jolani joined a coalition of factions called Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, or HTS.
Speaker A
And Jolani claimed he was going through a major transformation.
Speaker A
HTS, he said, was not ISIS.
Speaker A
We need to take care of matters related to Muslims.
Speaker A
Everything we're building will reach all Muslims, my brothers.
Speaker E
I think Jabhat al-Nusra at the very early stages of its existence did exhibit practices that were similar to ISIS.
Speaker E
But Jabhat al-Nusra has now partially or fully transformed into Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, which split from Al-Qaeda, would save face.
Speaker E
So there are all sorts of practical reasons for a split from Al-Qaeda.
Speaker A
Jolani then went to war against Al-Qaeda, ISIS, and other fellow jihadis.
Speaker D
They started going against other Islamist groups because they felt that they were rivals. They wanted to have a monopoly in violence essentially in the area.
Speaker A
Two weeks after my first interview with Jolani, he agreed to sit down again.
Speaker B
You fought against our Al-Sham, you fought against those who stayed with Al-Qaeda, the Ras al-Din, and ISIS, of course, and even the Free Syrian Army that was backed by the CIA.
Speaker B
How much blood and treasure was spilled in that time?
Speaker C
Each of those is a separate story that would take a long time.
Speaker C
But to sum it up, though we tried hard to avoid this confrontation, it was inevitable.
Speaker A
What is it about Jolani, do you think, that allowed him to be the one that came out on top of all of this?
Speaker D
He clearly has survival instincts because it's been a very bloody civil war.
Speaker D
Jolani has gone where the wind has blown in many respects over time to try and survive different challenges that have come up at various points within the last 10 years.
Speaker C
Those who follow God are victorious. The equation is simple.
Speaker A
In 2017, Jolani joined a coalition of factions called Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, or HTS.
Speaker A
And Jolani claimed he was going through a major transformation.
Speaker A
HTS, he said, was not ISIS.
Speaker A
We need to take care of matters related to Muslims.
Speaker A
Everything we're building will reach all Muslims, my brothers.
Speaker E
I think Jabhat al-Nusra at the very early stages of its existence did exhibit practices that were similar to ISIS.
Speaker E
But Jabhat al-Nusra has now partially or fully transformed into Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, which split from Al-Qaeda, would save face.
Speaker E
So there are all sorts of practical reasons for a split from Al-Qaeda.
Speaker A
Jolani then went to war against Al-Qaeda, ISIS, and other fellow jihadis.
Speaker D
They started going against other Islamist groups because they felt that they were rivals. They wanted to have a monopoly in violence essentially in the area.
Speaker A
Two weeks after my first interview with Jolani, he agreed to sit down again.
Speaker B
You fought against our Al-Sham, you fought against those who stayed with Al-Qaeda, the Ras al-Din, and ISIS, of course, and even the Free Syrian Army that was backed by the CIA.
Speaker B
How much blood and treasure was spilled in that time?
Speaker C
Each of those is a separate story that would take a long time.
Speaker C
But to sum it up, though we tried hard to avoid this confrontation, it was inevitable.
Speaker A
What is it about Jolani, do you think, that allowed him to be the one that came out on top of all of this?
Speaker D
He clearly has survival instincts because it's been a very bloody civil war.
Speaker D
Jolani has gone where the wind has blown in many respects over time to try and survive different challenges that have come up at various points within the last 10 years.
Speaker C
Those who follow God are victorious. The equation is simple.
Speaker A
In 2017, Jolani joined a coalition of factions called Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, or HTS.
Speaker A
And Jolani claimed he was going through a major transformation.
Speaker A
HTS, he said, was not ISIS.
Speaker A
We need to take care of matters related to Muslims.
Speaker A
Everything we're building will reach all Muslims, my brothers.
Speaker E
I think Jabhat al-Nusra at the very early stages of its existence did exhibit practices that were similar to ISIS.
Speaker E
But Jabhat al-Nusra has now partially or fully transformed into Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, which split from Al-Qaeda, would save face.
Speaker E
So there are all sorts of practical reasons for a split from Al-Qaeda.
Speaker A
Jolani then went to war against Al-Qaeda, ISIS, and other fellow jihadis.
Speaker D
They started going against other Islamist groups because they felt that they were rivals. They wanted to have a monopoly in violence essentially in the area.
Speaker A
Two weeks after my first interview with Jolani, he agreed to sit down again.
Speaker B
You fought against our Al-Sham, you fought against those who stayed with Al-Qaeda, the Ras al-Din, and ISIS, of course, and even the Free Syrian Army that was backed by the CIA.
Speaker B
How much blood and treasure was spilled in that time?
Speaker C
Each of those is a separate story that would take a long time.
Speaker C
But to sum it up, though we tried hard to avoid this confrontation, it was inevitable.
Speaker A
What is it about Jolani, do you think, that allowed him to be the one that came out on top of all of this?
Speaker D
He clearly has survival instincts because it's been a very bloody civil war.
Speaker D
Jolani has gone where the wind has blown in many respects over time to try and survive different challenges that have come up at various points within the last 10 years.
Speaker C
Those who follow God are victorious. The equation is simple.
Speaker A
In 2017, Jolani joined a coalition of factions called Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, or HTS.
Speaker A
And Jolani claimed he was going through a major transformation.
Speaker A
HTS, he said, was not ISIS.
Speaker A
We need to take care of matters related to Muslims.
Speaker A
Everything we're building will reach all Muslims, my brothers.
Speaker E
I think Jabhat al-Nusra at the very early stages of its existence did exhibit practices that were similar to ISIS.
Speaker E
But Jabhat al-Nusra has now partially or fully transformed into Hayat Tahrir al-Sham, which split from Al-Qaeda, would save face.
Speaker E
So there are all sorts of practical reasons for a split from Al-Qaeda.
Speaker A
Jolani then went to war against Al-Qaeda, ISIS, and other fellow jihadis.
Speaker D
They started going against other Islamist groups because they felt that they were rivals. They wanted to have a monopoly in violence essentially in the area.
Speaker A
Two weeks after my first interview with Jolani, he agreed to sit down again.
Speaker B
You fought against our Al-Sham, you fought against those who stayed with Al-Qaeda, the Ras al-Din, and ISIS, of course, and even the Free Syrian Army that was backed by the CIA.
Speaker B
How much blood and treasure was spilled in that time?
Speaker C
Each of those is a separate story that would take a long time.
Speaker C
But to sum it up, though we tried hard to avoid this confrontation, it was inevitable.
Speaker A
What is it about Jolani, do you think, that allowed him to be the one that came out on top of all of this?
Speaker D
He clearly has survival instincts because it's been a very bloody civil war.
Speaker D
Jolani has gone where the wind has blown in many respects over time to try and survive different challenges that have come up at various points within the last 10 years.
Speaker C
Those who follow God are victorious. The equation is simple.
Topics:Abu Mohammad al-JolaniHayat Tahrir al-ShamIdlibSyria conflictjihadAl-QaedaISISterrorismFrontline PBSMiddle East politics
