Speaker A
The Joe Rogan Experience.
CIA whistleblower John Kiriakou shares his experience exposing post-9/11 torture and the legal consequences he faced.
Key Takeaways
- Whistleblowers face severe legal and personal consequences despite acting patriotically.
- Government agencies may misuse espionage charges to silence dissent.
- The FBI employs strategic tactics to pressure suspects during investigations.
- Internal conflicts exist within law enforcement regarding the treatment of whistleblowers.
- Exposing government wrongdoing requires significant personal sacrifice and resilience.
Summary
- John Kiriakou recounts being approached by a foreign intelligence officer and reporting it to the FBI.
- He cooperated with the FBI multiple times to expose espionage attempts.
- Kiriakou describes being investigated and charged with espionage despite his innocence.
- He details the FBI's tactics, including timing arrests to maximize pressure on suspects.
- Several FBI agents later apologized, revealing internal disagreement about the case.
- Kiriakou faced a potential 45-year prison sentence but refused to accept a plea deal.
- The emotional toll on Kiriakou and his family is highlighted, including moments of despair.
- He discusses the proffer meeting and pressure from the Justice Department.
- The narrative exposes the challenges whistleblowers face within the intelligence community.
- Kiriakou’s story sheds light on post-9/11 torture programs and government retaliation.
Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown
Speaker A
And um, I get a call from this Japanese diplomat, and he invites me to lunch. I said, great. We meet at a place on Capitol Hill, and um, I, I remember that lunch very well.
Speaker A
I remember we talked about Israeli elections, we talked about Turkish elections, and we talked about the Arab-Israeli peace process. And at the end of the lunch, he says to me, and I should add, his English was so bad that we had to do the lunch in Arabic.
Speaker A
So, he said, what's next for you? And I said, well, I think I'm going to resign soon. I promised Senator Kerry I'd give him two years. It's been two and a half.
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I have five kids, and I really need to make some money and put my kids through college. And he goes, no, don't do that.
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If you give me information, I can give you money.
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And I said, what the fuck is wrong with you?
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You have any idea how many times I've made that pitch?
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Shame on you, cold pitching me like that.
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And I got up indignantly, and I walked out.
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And I walked, I mean, directly without stopping, to the office of the Senate Security Officer.
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And I, I knocked on the door, and I went in, I said, hey, I was just pitched by a foreign intelligence officer.
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And he goes, was that that damn Russian again?
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And I said, no, it was Japanese.
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He goes, Japanese?
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I said, I know, right?
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He goes, well, no, sometimes they poke around looking for trade information.
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I said, this didn't have anything to do with trade information.
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I don't think.
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I don't know.
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We didn't even get that far.
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He said, okay, do me a favor, he said, I've got a standalone computer here that's not connected to the internet.
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Write it up as a memo, and I'm going to courier it over to the FBI.
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So I sat there and I wrote the whole thing, blow by blow.
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The next day he calls me, and he says, two FBI agents are going to come up and talk to you.
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And I said, okay.
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So they come up, I recount the whole, the whole lunch.
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And they said, all right, here's what we want you to do. We want you to call him back.
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Invite him to lunch, and then try to get him to tell you exactly what information he wants.
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And how much he's willing to pay for it.
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And I said, because I'm a patriot.
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I said, you want me to wear a wire?
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And they said, no, we're going to be at the next table.
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We're, we're going to listen to everything.
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I said, but he only speaks Arabic.
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That's okay, we got a guy who speaks Arabic.
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Don't worry.
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I said, all right.
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So I call him, I invite him to lunch.
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We go to lunch, do the whole thing.
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But before the lunch, right before the lunch, they called me and said, operation came up.
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Just write us another, another memo.
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Do the lunch and write us another memo.
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I said, fine.
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So I wrote another memo, they asked me to do it a third time, a fourth time, and a fifth time.
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The fifth time, he says to me, I have great news.
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He said, I got my dream job. I've been promoted and I'm going to be the Deputy Ambassador in Cairo.
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And I said, congratulations, I shook his hand, never saw him again.
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So, I've written all this to the FBI.
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One day in January of 2012, so I've been out of the Senate for about nine months.
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The FBI calls.
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And I look at my cell phone, it says, Federal Bureau of Investigation.
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I was like, I wonder what that's all about.
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So I answer, and they said, hey, you remember that thing you helped us out with a year ago?
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And I said, yeah.
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And they said, we've got a similar situation and we need your help.
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And again, because I'm a patriot.
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I said, anything for the FBI.
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I kick myself now for saying it.
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I said, anything for the FBI.
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What do you want me to do?
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They said, come down to the Washington Field Office Thursday morning at 10.
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I said, done.
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I go down there the next Thursday.
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And uh, they're waiting for me at the entrance, which I thought was odd.
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And we go up to a conference room and they said, we're both cleared SITK, Gamma.
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And then there were two compartments above top secret that I was cleared for that they said they were cleared for.
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And so if the, if the conversation necessitated it, we could go into that area.
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So, they said, well, before, before we start, just wanted to ask you.
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Just read your book, it was great, I loved it.
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Hey, what about this that you said in your book?
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And I was like, yeah, okay.
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Yeah.
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It was a cool story.
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What about this other thing?
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Yeah.
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I had fun.
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I said, it was kind of hard, you know, it took me nine months to write the book.
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22 months to get it cleared.
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Oh, yeah, you got it cleared.
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Yeah, of course I got it cleared.
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22 months it took me to get it cleared.
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I'm thinking, what an odd question.
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Then they start asking me about something called the Sam Adams Project.
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And I said, I'm sorry, I don't know what that means.
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And then the bad cop of the two says, we know you've been giving information to the Guantanamo defense attorneys.
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I said, what are you talking about?
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And then I said, wait a minute.
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Are you investigating me?
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And they said, yeah, and we're raiding your house right now as we speak.
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And I said, thank God.
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I said, I want to speak to my attorney right now.
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That was the only reason that they didn't arrest me.
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And one of the things that I learned, and this became painfully evident when they started arresting January 6 people.
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Was the FBI in Washington likes to make its arrests on Thursdays.
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Because there are no federal arraignments on Friday.
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So you're in the DC jail Thursday night, Friday night, Saturday night, Sunday night.
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Getting the shit beat out of you.
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And then they arraign you on Monday.
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And then you want to make a deal just so you don't ever have to go inside that prison again.
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But because I asked to see my attorney, they let me go.
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So I called the attorney as soon as I, I got out of the office.
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Actually, when I was walking out, one of them went over to, I didn't know it at the time.
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But it was Peter Strock.
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And Peter Strock says, tell me he implicated himself.
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And the guy said, not really, no.
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We have to let him go.
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And so I grabbed my cell phone and I left.
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Went to the attorney's office.
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They had already called my attorney and said they were charging me with espionage.
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I hadn't committed espionage.
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They knew I hadn't committed espionage.
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And in fact, since then, I'm fast forwarding a lot.
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Three FBI agents have reached out to me, well, two to my attorneys, one reached out to me directly to apologize.
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Saying that this came from the top, they thought it was a BS case.
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They were sorry they were involved.
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But there was nothing they could do.
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One guy reached out to me through eBay.
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Of all things.
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Like to try to cover up the, uh, the trail.
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He's like, listen, I've, I've been losing sleep over this for the.
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Excuse me.
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For the last 13 years, I just wanted to tell you how sorry I am.
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Blah, blah, blah.
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I was like, well, I hope you feel better.
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My whole life fell apart.
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But I'm glad you got that off your chest.
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So, um, it became a matter of, of just survival.
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After that, you know, you have to take it seriously.
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I was facing 45 years in prison.
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And then when the Justice Department, um, made a, a request for a proffer meeting.
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The proffer meeting is, they'll give you a little idea of what they have against you.
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And then they make an offer.
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You can take it or leave it.
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And they offered me 45 years.
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And I said, I'm not doing 45 minutes.
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I didn't do anything wrong.
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And this woman, she became Deputy Attorney General for the Criminal Division under Biden.
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She said, take this deal, Mr. Kiriakou, and you may live to meet your grandchildren.
Speaker B
Oh my God.
Speaker A
Oh, it was.
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I went home that night and.
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I'm, I'm ashamed to even say it.
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That night we, we put the kids to bed.
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And my wife and I were watching TV.
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And she said, come on, let's go to bed.
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I said, I can't sleep.
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I, there's no way I'm going to be able to sleep.
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And she said, no, come on, let's go to bed.
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She knew.
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I was going to go down into the garage, turn the car on and just lay across the back seat.
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And she said, now, come on.
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You need to try to get some sleep.
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She saved me that night.
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But 45 years.
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And so, they waited 10 months before they were even willing to engage in a conversation.
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And then they offered 10 years.
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On a Monday, on Wednesday they offered eight.
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And on Friday they offered five.
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My lead attorney was this legendary guy named Plato Kacheris.
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And Plato said, you know, I've been a criminal defense attorney in this city.
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For 52 years.
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And this is the first time I've ever seen them come down in time.
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He said, usually they offer you 10, you say no.
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The next offer is 15.
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Then the next offer is 20.
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I said, why are they coming down in time?
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He said, because they have a shit case and they know it's shit.
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And that's why we're going to go to trial and we're going to win this thing.
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I said, great.
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Well.
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They, they, they stayed at five.
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And then they came back and they said, three and a half.
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And I said, I'm going to trial.
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I'm going to win this thing.
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Turned out at the time, my best friend, his wife had an uncle who was O.J. Simpson's jury consultant.
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And she called him for me and she said, hey, my friend John, he's in this situation.
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He's like, yeah, I read about this in the papers.
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He could use your help.
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He came up, didn't charge me a cent.
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He came up to Washington, we got him a security clearance.
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And uh, which was another thing.
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We asked for a security clearance and then, uh, the, uh, the Justice Department called and said.
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The White House said Kiriakou's attorneys have enough security clearances.
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And I said, who at the White House said we have enough security clearances?
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Well, they had to tell us.
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That it was John Brennan.
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No more attorneys for Kiriakou.
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Fisher cut bait.
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Well, like, it's not up to John Brennan to decide if I have enough attorneys.
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They have an unlimited number of attorneys, an unlimited budget.
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As it turned out, they spent $6 million to put me in prison.
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Was society really better off spending $6 million to put me in a low security prison?
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For, for 23 months?
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So, in the end they said, best and final offer.
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30 months, you do 23.
Speaker A
Well, I was only the second American who had ever been charged with this crime of, um.
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Violating the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982.
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Uh, the only other person that was charged with it was a woman named Sharon Scranage.
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She was a CIA secretary in Ghana in the 80s.
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And she was having an affair with a member of Ghana's intelligence service, and in the course of pillow talk.
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She revealed the names of all of the CIA officers in the station.
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And the names of the sources they were running.
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And so the Ghanaians executed these guys.
Speaker B
Oh my God.
Speaker A
She got nine months in prison.
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Nine months.
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And they offer me 45 years.
Speaker B
Phew.
Speaker A
For blowing the whistle on the torture program.
Speaker A
So, my wife and I stayed up all night.
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Literally all night, and because Sharon Scranage had taken a plea.
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There was literally no case law.
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So what we found, we found several things, um, we found several articles from the Harvard Law Review saying.
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This law is unconstitutional.
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It violates the First Amendment.
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And it is prior restraint.
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Right, like it tells you in advance you can't say X, Y, and Z.
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But because there was no case law, you can't, you couldn't challenge it in court.
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And I said, well, can't we just appeal, appeal the charge?
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And maybe, you know, all the way up to the Supreme Court.
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And they said, yeah, we can do that post conviction.
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And then you're going to be 45 years waiting and hoping that the Supreme Court does the right thing.
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We can't do that.
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So, um, so I decided by 6:00 a.m.
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I'm going to turn it down.
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I believed in my heart I hadn't done anything right.
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This was political, it was a vendetta by John Brennan.
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And Obama, by all accounts, I had friends, of course, who were still working at the agency and working at the, uh, at the White House.
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And they said that Obama had this Nixonian obsession with national security leaks.
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And it's because that came from Brennan.
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Obama was a senator for two years.
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He didn't have any experience doing anything.
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So he did what John Brennan told him to do.
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And Brennan said, you got to crack down on these leaks.
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They do nothing but embarrass us.
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So, um, I decided I'm going to turn it down.
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6:00 a.m. I send an email to my attorneys.
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I had 11 attorneys.
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I was paying half of them.
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Five of them.
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And um, and then one of them writes back and says, put on a pot of coffee.
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We'll be at the house by seven.
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So they come to my house.
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The, the four main ones came to the house.
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Plato was the first one in.
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Now imagine this, like 80-year-old, 6'2", 280-pound mean old man.
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He comes in and I said, good morning, Plato.
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And he said, you stupid son of a bitch.
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Take the deal.
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Like that.
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I said, take the deal.
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You're the one that told me not to take the deal.
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You're the one who told me we're going to go to trial and win this thing.
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And he says, I only told you that to keep your spirits up.
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Oh God.
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And then the second one, his partner, Bob Trout, a sweet, a gentleman.
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A Southern gentleman.
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He says, if you were my own brother, I would beg you to take this deal.
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And I'm like, what?
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Now what do I do?
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And then the third, who was the guy, Mark McDougal.
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One, one of the best attorneys I've ever encountered in my life.
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And, and the one that I liked and respected the most out of all of them.
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I liked all of them and respected all of them.
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But, but I felt a connection to this guy.
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He pulls me aside, he was a little bit angry.
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And he said, you know what your problem is?
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Your problem is you think this is about justice, and it's not about justice.
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It's about mitigating damage.
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Take the deal.
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And I looked at my wife.
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She's just like, what are we going to do?
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So I took the deal.
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And I got two and a half years in prison, and they made me do every single day of it.
Topics:John KiriakouCIA whistleblowerpost-9/11 tortureespionage chargesFBI investigationgovernment retaliationintelligence communitywhistleblower prosecutionJoe Rogan Experiencenational security
