**Dlaczego po narodzinach dziecka związek się ROZPADA? | położna Ewa Kwiecińska — Transcript & Summary | SozAI**
Source: https://sozai.app/transcript/why-relationship-falls-apart-after-baby/

Explore why relationships often struggle after a baby’s birth, focusing on psychological impacts, communication, and postpartum challenges.

## Key Takeaways

- Postpartum mental health issues affect both parents and need more open discussion.
- Couples should prioritize relationship communication over material preparations for the baby.
- Clear agreements on parenting roles and support after birth reduce conflicts and stress.
- Men’s emotional needs during pregnancy and postpartum must be acknowledged and supported.
- Professional support and therapy can help couples maintain a healthy relationship after childbirth.

## What the video covers

- Postpartum depression and baby blues affect not only mothers but also many men, a topic rarely discussed.
- Couples often focus on newborn logistics rather than preparing their relationship for changes after birth.
- Lack of communication about parenting expectations, feeding choices, and support roles can cause conflicts.
- The psychological impact of childbirth and postpartum period can strain couples, sometimes leading to relationship breakdown.
- Men’s emotional experiences during pregnancy and postpartum are often overlooked and stigmatized.
- Social media creates unrealistic expectations of motherhood, causing feelings of betrayal and isolation.
- Effective preparation includes discussing feeding plans, support systems, and relationship dynamics before birth.
- Postpartum anxiety and depression often coexist, affecting parental self-esteem and family dynamics.
- Couples therapy and open communication are vital to navigate the challenges of the perinatal period.
- Grieving and trauma related to childbirth complications or loss require mutual support and professional help.

## Chapters

1. 00:00 Introduction to Postpartum Depression in Men
2. 05:30 Focus on Newborn Logistics vs. Relationship
3. 10:57 Daily Life Challenges and Relationship Strain
4. 16:05 Psychological Impact and Expectations After Birth
5. 20:57 Men’s Emotional Experience During Perinatal Period
6. 23:41 Postpartum Anxiety, Depression, and Social Media Effects
7. 29:40 Importance of Communication and Planning for Parenthood
8. 37:13 Grief, Trauma, and Support After Childbirth Complications
9. 42:01 Closing Thoughts on Couple’s Therapy and Mutual Support

Answers

## Questions about this video

Why do many relationships struggle after the birth of a child?

Many relationships struggle because couples often focus on practical preparations for the baby but neglect discussing their relationship expectations and emotional needs, leading to misunderstandings and conflicts.

Do men experience postpartum depression and how is it addressed?

Yes, many men experience postpartum depression and baby blues, but it is rarely talked about. Men’s emotional struggles during this period are often overlooked, and stigma can prevent them from seeking help.

What should couples discuss before the baby is born to strengthen their relationship?

Couples should discuss feeding plans, the presence and role of family support after birth, parenting expectations, and how they want to support each other to prepare emotionally and practically for life with a newborn.

## Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown

00:01

Speaker A

One in four men I dated during the perinatal period had symptoms of postpartum depression and baby blues, which isn't talked about at all.

00:10

Speaker A

And most often, when mourning for a past life occurs, because it often happens in groups, half the room has such a surprised look on their face that someone said "seats" out loud.

00:20

Speaker A

Are you saying there are people who play on their phones while their partner is giving birth?

00:24

Speaker A

Yes. Yes. Where did the man move to a different part of the house? It was a large house, and he told me directly that the baby had taken his place. This woman's belly, a week after giving birth. I haven't seen the article "This

00:38

Speaker A

woman's foot after giving birth," I don't know, "This woman's ear after giving birth," no. The belly is such a climax. We have a beautiful image of motherhood presented in the media, and then postpartum patients cry to me during appointments that they feel

00:52

Speaker A

betrayed by their mothers and sisters because of social media. What happens to people when they lose a child?

01:05

Speaker A

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01:23

Speaker A

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Speaker A

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Speaker A

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02:07

Speaker A

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02:21

Speaker A

refrigerator scanner. And with the code Charismatic, you can buy your plan 5% cheaper. Check the link in the description for more information. Good morning, good evening. My guest and yours is Ewa Kwiecińska. Hi. Good morning. Hi. Hello. I'm a midwife,

02:37

Speaker A

lactation consultant, and therapist in training. And today we'll be covering the first part of your practice, which is what happens before the baby comes into the world. And right after, because we'll probably also talk about the birth itself and we'll probably

02:57

Speaker A

focus on the psychological aspect: how it affects the couple, and whether it does, because I also had a doubt, after all, a baby doesn't change anything.

03:09

Speaker A

And I wanted to start with what your path was like. What led you to pursue midwifery in particular? For me, midwifery came about somewhat by accident in my life, as if I had other plans. I was preparing for theater

03:29

Speaker A

exams because I was a professional dancer, I also danced ballet for 10 years, and midwifery was a random path that began by chance, but ended me because I fell in love with midwifery.

03:42

Speaker A

Later, this path led me to a second degree in nursing, to the operating room, and from there, through sexology.

03:52

Speaker A

And later, when I started working more with couples during the perinatal period, it led me to couples therapy studies, and I'm currently starting a four-year psychotherapy program this year.

04:04

Speaker A

Congratulations. Thank you very much. I think this will be a useful skill in collaboration with patients, clients.

04:12

Speaker A

With patients. Exactly. Is it the patient in midwifery or the patient? In midwifery, it's more of a patient, although not every pregnancy is an illness, of course, so then we can talk about the client, right? If we have a

04:26

Speaker A

physiological pregnancy, maybe a companion to work with? That might also be a good word. What happens during pregnancy, and how do people react to what's about to happen? Is there more fear or more hope? How do people approach this? I suspect each couple

04:53

Speaker A

has their own unique approach, but you probably see certain patterns of behavior, meaning what happens before birth and how people simply react to it during this period. Typically, during this period, while still pregnant, people are preparing for labor, and the

05:12

Speaker A

main fears that surface there are about the newborn, about the delivery, and about choosing a hospital. However, couples quite often forget to focus on building a relationship with each other and agreeing on what they want their pregnancy, their life after the birth,

05:30

Speaker A

to look like. They focus more on choosing a crib, a car seat, clothes, all the newborn gadgets available on the market, and they forget to discuss what's important to them. I usually hear from couples that "calm down, Mr.

05:50

Speaker A

Ewa, we'll figure it out as these things come up." What I see later after the birth is that this ongoing process is what crushes these couples. People don't discuss how to feed their child, or whether they plan for the mother or

06:04

Speaker A

mother-in-law to be present after the birth. I remember a story where, three hours after the birth, a couple were discussing how they wanted to feed their child, because each of them had a different plan. The man wanted the

06:18

Speaker A

woman to breastfeed, the woman wanted to formula feed. They didn't tell each other; it came up after the birth, and there was a bit of surprise, and a heated discussion ensued. Then there's no time after the birth to discuss what

06:33

Speaker A

we want from each other, what our expectations are as future fathers or mothers. Our adrenaline levels plummet after giving birth. Even if our fifth child is born, it always causes stress.

06:45

Speaker A

We start to feel sleepy when we already know everything is fine. So, having a discussion with each other and agreeing on how we want to feed the baby, or saying to your partner: "Listen, I planned, I planned that my mom would

06:58

Speaker A

come to us after we left the hospital, but we didn't agree on it. It's not a good idea and it's not the right time.

07:05

Speaker A

You have to discuss this with each other before the birth." That's why I always say that the birth is about the couple, and these fears, mainly couples and problems, focus on the birthing process, things related to the newborn,

07:17

Speaker A

but they forget to discuss the most important things about their relationship. So we naturally focus on logistics and practical issues like this crib, this car seat, and clothes, a changing table, this bodysuit, this one, not this one, this one recommended

07:37

Speaker A

by the physiotherapist, this one. And we make a lot of such gadgets for newborns, and also such gadgets maybe for the birth. And we forget about ourselves as a couple, that's the most important thing. Psychologically, I could say that maybe that's why we

07:53

Speaker A

focus so much on these things, so as not to confront what will happen when he or she doesn't agree to how I'd like it to look. It can be that way too.

08:06

Speaker A

And so you said that this is what you suggest couples consider, what are the elements of this strategy that shouldn't be left until the last moment? And after giving birth. Meaning, what should they discuss even before the

08:23

Speaker A

baby arrives? How they feed their child. We assume from the outset that every woman will breastfeed. Not every woman wants to breastfeed, and there are various reasons for that. I'm not trying to be anti-breastfeeding here, but sometimes there are mental blocks, beliefs that a

08:43

Speaker A

woman simply doesn't want for some reason. Then we can talk it through as a couple. Do we anticipate the mother or mother-in-law being present after the birth? Do we anticipate after the birth, meaning in the hospital room, or generally?

08:56

Speaker A

No, after the birth, at home to help. For example, to help, I don't know, with going for a walk, with the whole daily organization of life with a newborn.

09:04

Speaker A

Or grandmother? Will she be helping on one

09:18

Speaker A

whether this dad, or even takes paternity leave for these two weeks? Do we even want it, does the employer allow it? How does the employer view this perinatal period for a new dad?

09:33

Speaker A

Because not everyone will think from their own perspective. So one employer might think," Okay, my employee's child was born, so I need money, "so they'll throw five additional projects at him, for example, without expanding his team . He returns to work, with a small

09:48

Speaker A

child at home who wakes up every two or three hours, so he's sleep-deprived. Plus, he has more work, he brings that work home, and that also affects the relationship, because he doesn't have time, even if he wanted to, to build

09:59

Speaker A

that relationship, bond with the child, or actively participate in building a relationship with his partner. A boss might say," Okay, this young dad needs more time, so I'll add two extra people to his team to relieve him of the

10:12

Speaker A

burden. "So, these are different situations. Every boss reacts differently because they will look at how they felt in a given situation. So, it's important to establish organizational arrangements. If we have pets, then determine whether we need an extra person. For example, I don't know

10:32

Speaker A

, maybe a neighbor has two dogs and if she takes ours with her a day, it won't matter to her if, for example, we skip one dog walk a day, because that also helps with this kind of organization

10:43

Speaker A

with a newborn. If we have an older child, how do we manage preschool or nursery? Do we need someone to help with the older child? Even to take the child to preschool and pick them up in the morning. For example, the newborn

10:57

Speaker A

might be taking a nap during that time, and we might not be able to get to preschool in time to pick up the older child. These are logistical things that later break down these couples 'daily routines.

11:10

Speaker A

And what's the biggest problem? Are there any of the things you mentioned that appear cyclically and that you see come back like a boomerang?

11:19

Speaker A

Overload with responsibilities. One side feels like they're doing more, and the other side is doing less. This usually stems from a lack of understanding about what we expect from you, from each other. I might have certain expectations of my partner,

11:39

Speaker A

what kind of father he'll be, but he also has certain expectations of me, what kind of mother I'll be. Hmm.

11:46

Speaker A

So, for example, let's say all my workmates went swimming with their child on Tuesdays, so I decided that my , let's say, Marek, will always go swimming with his child on Tuesdays, because there are classes for two-and three-month-old babies. It turns out

12:02

Speaker A

that Marek doesn't go swimming at all. So, a certain frustration is building up inside me. This Marek, let's say, assumes that all his workmates, I don't know, breastfed, were full-time cooks, cleaners, so I expect the same from my

12:15

Speaker A

partner, but I haven't had time to tell her about it yet. And these mutually unspoken expectations are What later destroys these couples. Our family system also has a big impact here, meaning what we bring with us.

12:28

Speaker A

But you also said I only have a request . Could you elaborate a little? Tell me , because I'm wondering, even when it comes to such issues, yes, I understand that this pool, it makes sense to me.

12:42

Speaker A

Yes, yes. I mean, I guess there are many such examples. I mean, I imagined you would be this kind of father, you would be this kind of mother, but on the other hand, when you talk about the logistics of everyday

12:56

Speaker A

life, I guess there was already some history of this relationship, of how they organized this household. And I kind of want to ask this question: is there an expectation on the part of men that I'll now be the one earning the

13:12

Speaker A

money, and you'll be home with the child and taking care of the house? It happens more and more often. But I also always say that even if we have certain things sorted out and we've been living together for a few years

13:28

Speaker A

and then this child is born, it's a bit magical. Suddenly, this laundry that We used to turn it on once a week, and it multiplies to three or four times a week because we change the baby five times a day. Suddenly, the trash we

13:42

Speaker A

used to take out once a week multiplies because diapers come in and have to be taken out twice a day. And these everyday, trivial things in communication don't come up because we constantly think the other person is doing it, or if we've lived together

13:54

Speaker A

for a long time and the other person has been running the washing machine their whole lives, so we assume from above that it will be like this for the rest of our lives. Nothing will change at all, regardless of whether this

14:06

Speaker A

person shows up and needs to run the washing machine more often, and the other person who didn't run it doesn't even think that maybe we should organize it differently so that this greater burden of responsibilities doesn't fall on this one person.

14:17

Speaker A

In other words, we don't update ourselves on what's going to happen now , how it's going to look, what it's going to look like. We just assume from above that nothing will change. I once heard from a group at a

14:30

Speaker A

childbirth class that I scare people. That's why I like groups, because a lot of things like that come out, both for the group and for the leader. Groups are great because they really build relationships, and sometimes things come out in groups that we ourselves

14:47

Speaker A

can't say out loud. Instagram, social media, and other platforms build this belief in us that this mid-term labor will be something beautiful. Our baby won't cry, he'll latch on right away, we won't feel any pain, everything will be great, we'll be smiling, we'll book

15:06

Speaker A

that photographer, we'll have a family photoshoot, and the reality when we go home is a bit different. It's as if my intention wasn't to scare them, but to prepare them and make them consider this, when rearranging their lives and

15:21

Speaker A

families, that this life will require reorganization, meaning we'll go to this party, but we have this little baby. So now the question is, what do we do with this baby? Does it come with us? If it comes with us, we make

15:32

Speaker A

arrangements with friends that maybe we'll put it in the other room, put it to sleep at a certain time. 29:00, and we'll leave the party with him in the morning. Should we look for a family friend or a babysitter for an hour to

15:44

Speaker A

come and sit with our child until we return from the party in the morning?

15:48

Speaker A

So it's not like we won't go to the party, but it requires a slightly different organization of life. This newborn also eats every three hours, so these initial weeks require us to adapt to this child. People can't anticipate

16:05

Speaker A

this level of responsibility and this amount of work around the child, and they don't expect it at all, and it hits them hard.

16:13

Speaker A

It hits them hard too. Sometimes I do an emotion map at a coping class.

16:18

Speaker A

We divide into groups and write down the emotions people associate with postpartum. And there are two extremes.

16:27

Speaker A

On the one hand, we have love, pride, and delight, and on the other, there's a lot of fear and anxiety.

16:35

Speaker A

And most often, when there's mourning for a past life, because it often happens in groups, half the room looks surprised. That someone said it out loud.

16:44

Speaker A

Mhm. But surprised, surprised, so surprised that someone dared to say it out loud that they were mourning their former lives, but part of them is surprised, part of them is, well, we're kind of preparing for it.

16:57

Speaker A

But it's like we're losing a part of ourselves somewhere in this motherhood, fatherhood, parenthood. Whether we like it or not, we have to adapt to this child at the beginning. They won't stay home on their own, I don't know, they

17:08

Speaker A

won't open the fridge, they won't make that sandwich. After all, they're dependent on us. Yes, they won't do it for a while. They're dependent on us.

17:18

Speaker A

So, um, I have the impression that couples are confronted with this media message that nothing changes, it'll be fine or okay, we know there will be some work, but what's happening in reality is so, um, overwhelming, and the reality is colliding with them,

17:32

Speaker A

that these everyday, trivial things that we had agreed on and worked out, are just...We communicated wordlessly, but it turns out our family and everyday lives are being completely turned upside down.

17:45

Speaker A

Mmm. And what scared me a little was that when I mentioned I was expecting a baby, most people didn't say anything, I mean, congratulations, but then they moved on to scare tactics like," Now you'll see, your life is kind of over

18:01

Speaker A

now, just like that. "And it was very striking to me that the only person who reacted quite well to this was my friend who was Argentinian, and he also said something very specific, when I pointed out that people say things like

18:18

Speaker A

that, that they're a bit scary. So I was kind of prepared for everything that was about to happen. But he used this cool phrase, that your life is already ending in some way, but a new chapter is beginning, and you'll be

18:35

Speaker A

happy with how it turns out. And it's natural that at the cost of parenthood, you'll simply have to let go of something. I think many people probably don't feel the same way. That's one aspect. The second one, which I often

19:00

Speaker A

saw in my office, was this kind of behavior, probably strange, more on the part of men, related to this kind of...

19:06

Speaker A

I had the impression that they felt when a woman was pregnant and that the, like, delivery was approaching, as if they felt that it was the last moment for certain things and they engaged in some—I guess I could call it—

19:19

Speaker A

irresponsible behavior. I mean, they went to a festival, went away with friends for weekends during that period , where I would expect myself to be ready to go to the hospital if something happened, right? Or even y, and that caught my

19:42

Speaker A

attention because it was a repetitive pattern I saw, that it wasn't just one or two cases, but a few people at a time, and it happened to a larger number of people. Have you observed anything like that too? I mean, I don't

19:57

Speaker A

know if it's even possible. Hmm. There's something about a certain group of men who stop feeling It's important for the partner that she's no longer the focal point of her partner's attention because the child is coming.

20:11

Speaker A

I once had a couple where the man moved to another part of the house, it was a large house, and he told me directly that the child had taken his place.

20:19

Speaker A

That was also a couple, but after the birth. That was after the birth. That was also a couple where various relationship issues were still there, as if before the birth, and unfortunately, the birth brought out everything they had buried

20:31

Speaker A

between themselves in the relationship. I guess you could generally say that a child is a lens for all the unprocessed things. Family therapists, and those who work with children, often say that when a child comes to therapy, they

20:47

Speaker A

draw out everything from the couple that the parents may have consciously or unconsciously hidden under the rug.

20:57

Speaker A

I also always tell the couples I work with that a child will bring out all the best qualities in you. They will bring a lot of curiosity. They are also a separate person with a separate character who will also have their own

21:09

Speaker A

idea of what to do. Your life. And don't be afraid of losing that particular part, what that friend told you, because this baby will draw out parts of you that are currently undiscovered until this baby arrives.

21:28

Speaker A

The baby took its place. Let's get back to that. And this happens often, because I think it's so common for men to feel so threatened. It might be the wrong word, but that they're rejected after the baby arrives. I think I was

21:51

Speaker A

struck, struck, even surprised quite often when I started working with couples in the perinatal period— meaning, these visits involve me going to their homes, and theoretically, they're supposed to be about the newborn, but it turned out during these

22:05

Speaker A

visits that they were about both the couple, the woman, and the man. Every fourth man I dated during the perinatal period had symptoms of postpartum depression and baby blues, which is not even talked about.

22:20

Speaker A

Every fourth. Every fourth. According to the statistics I found. Of those shared, it's reported to be around 10%. Only one article quoted 25%as men. One in four, which is quite a lot for me.

22:38

Speaker A

We focus more on women during the postpartum period, and we talk more about women. When I talk to the men I work with, or during childbirth classes , about postpartum depression in men, they're usually surprised and I hear,"

22:50

Speaker A

What are you talking about? I haven't given birth at all. What about postpartum depression? "" Yes. I always say that the cycle affects the couple.

23:01

Speaker A

Women medically, because, as you know, they are concerned about postpartum bleeding, wounds healing, whether after a cesarean section or perineal wounds, and mentally, this whole psychological part in a woman, but men are also affected mentally. While in women these

23:18

Speaker A

hormones return to their pre-pregnancy state after giving birth and it's a hormonal storm that flows through the body, in men we can also notice hormonal changes. In men, testosterone levels will decrease, which helps them build a relationship with their child,

23:34

Speaker A

this lower testosterone level, precisely this father child. Um, we see that if they are...I heard about this, this lower testosterone level is supposed to increase the level of body fat, which is supposed to allow them to survive more sleepless nights. So it's

23:54

Speaker A

supposedly all well-thought-out, that it has some kind of, well, sense. It is observed in men, especially in first pregnancies, where the partner is pregnant for the first time, that men have somatic symptoms of pregnancy, usually in The first and third

24:08

Speaker A

trimesters of their partners. What does this mean? Nausea, vomiting, and weight gain, sometimes in men. So it's also a very nice phenomenon, how they empathize with each other. The same goes for cortisol levels. If a man's baby cries,

24:24

Speaker A

there are studies showing cortisol levels rising, only to drop once he takes it in his arms and calms down. So men also experience these hormonal fluctuations. It's not like this man is some kind of hormonally independent being. There's a lot going on there too

24:39

Speaker A

. This feeling of being unimportant to his partner occurs, and this also contributes to the symptoms of postpartum depression.

24:48

Speaker A

While women experience postpartum depression more often, it's often combined with anxiety disorders and some irritability, men will tend to be more aggressive, hyperactive, and have a so-called short-term relationship where literally all it takes is a speck of dust and he's off with all his might

25:10

Speaker A

. So this depression may not be the typical one we're used to, that he He won't be depressed at all. He'll have concentration problems, he might be more likely to escape into work, he might resort to substances, but

25:24

Speaker A

statistics also show that it can occur up to a year after the birth of a child , and that's important to talk about, because men talk about the birth of a child, about giving birth, and it doesn't have to

25:35

Speaker A

be immediately. That first year of a child's life is a crucial moment for people, where we build new roles, we take on new roles, meaning the role of mother, the role of father. We build ourselves anew as a couple. We have

25:49

Speaker A

social expectations on us, so I, as a woman, have social expectations on me, and the man has them too. And we have to adapt to that. And where am I in all of this? As this person who hasn't been

26:01

Speaker A

a parent yet, who also has his own needs, so it's a complete mix. Additionally, I found some research that shows that if a woman has postpartum depression, the risk of it occurring in her partner increases, meaning the percentage will be higher

26:16

Speaker A

for men. Um, I haven't encountered such a combination. Usually, either the woman had postpartum depression.

26:25

Speaker A

Depressed, or at your place. Usually, the other side of this couple somewhere , somewhere, um, maintained this stability, but also, um, you know, I think it's more about the issue of it being an acceptable form of coping. I

26:44

Speaker A

mean, if she was depressed or he is depressed, I know I'm going to get tense now, because I have to, you know, take on the burden of this household for us, for the three of us at this point. But I accept that this is a way

27:00

Speaker A

of coping in this situation, that you might not be able to cope. So I think this is one of the possible explanations for why this comes from.

27:12

Speaker A

Especially since it's also clear that depression is so transferable, that the likelihood of depression increases when you were raised in a home where one of the caregivers suffered from depression. So I think it might sound a bit strange, but that we accept that

27:29

Speaker A

it's even an option to feel this way. But let's get back to the topic of these men, because it's so completely Counterintuitive, because we usually associate depression with this kind of withdrawal, a reduced—as the saying goes—drive: that nothing makes me

27:47

Speaker A

happy, that I don't feel like doing anything, I'm sadder, maybe more tearful, and you say that a man is more aggressive, you could say, in this. So how do the men you've seen behave, who were going through this kind of

28:04

Speaker A

postpartum depression? It was the man I mentioned earlier, who seemed to have completely changed his location in the house, moved to a different room. But I also remember a man, and here's an important aspect: let's not focus on

28:23

Speaker A

the fact that, let's assume an unruly child, a low socioeconomic status, then this depression will affect me. I remember a man who seemed to be in a very good financial situation. The second child was planned. The boss said

28:40

Speaker A

at work, "Listen, be remote for two or three months. I know you have a second child, so you can get your act together ." And the man said to me during the second visit, "Sir, I couldn't cope."" It all simply overwhelmed me. It's good

28:54

Speaker A

that he went to a psychiatrist and allowed himself to be helped, because men often don't reach out for help.

28:59

Speaker A

It's completely downplayed. That's why when I always talk about it, it causes surprise in the room. What about postpartum depression in men? What's it all about? This aggression isn't the kind of aggression that this man will do something to the child. It's the

29:17

Speaker A

kind of aggression that the amount of these emotions can be seen in anger towards the child, reluctance to take care of it, reluctance to pick it up, anger towards his partner, or you can see the man's irritation when the child cries

29:31

Speaker A

again. It's not the kind of aggression that when I leave the appointment I have to be afraid that this man will do something to the child. It's more of a self-directed aggression, and also a bit of aggression that there are

29:46

Speaker A

certain expectations towards me as a father, that I should do this, this, and this, and I don't do it, which means I'm a bad father. I once heard from a man that he wouldn't go to therapist, because it will definitely

29:59

Speaker A

be a woman and he will immediately hear from her that he is a bad father. So there is this fear of judgment, that someone will judge me badly, that I do not fit socially into the norms imposed on men, about what kind of father I am

30:12

Speaker A

supposed to be. I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised at all , when you say that. It's hard for me to imagine such a situation. I was also a bit curious about how people reacted to the information about this during

30:29

Speaker A

childbirth classes, because I have the impression that men, in the sense that there is some fear that he would steal the show. I know it's not an appropriate statement, but I'm trying to say that the man in the circle is pushed to the

30:45

Speaker A

side. He doesn't have it. After all, I was the one who went through this childbirth, so why shouldn't he cope with it at all?

30:53

Speaker A

And of course, as you said, physically, the entire burden of the spa rests on the woman. And why did I react this way ? It doesn't surprise me at all, because I remember a situation when a friend said about That his partner was

31:07

Speaker A

pregnant. I said," Oh, great, "that it was already somehow close to the solution. Um, and I mean, I don't say great, because I don't know if anyone wanted it, so I'm assuming a rather large, psychological hypothesis that who knows

31:24

Speaker A

what, um, what someone's attitude towards it is. And I'm asking, how do you feel about it at all? Oh, excuse me , that question was right after the baby was born, and he looked at me and said, you know, I've talked to dozens

31:40

Speaker A

of people, but you're the first one who actually asked me how I feel, not how the girls feel. Um, and that kind of shows me that the man's role is actually completely changing, and he, like, exactly, and it's unclear what

31:59

Speaker A

he's supposed to do: on the one hand, should he throw himself into this whirlwind of work and just bring home the money, or be the man who's supposed to help, well, organize the whole, whole, home life. I also had a

32:13

Speaker A

situation like that once, where I entered I'm just asking, how are you feeling? You've already told me, and he was standing in the kitchen with a glass of water, saying," Mom, you know what? "Since my wife got pregnant, no

32:26

Speaker A

one has asked me that question. So, uh, men aren't asked how they feel during their partner's pregnancy, during the postpartum period, and the whole couple revolution that's happening. And that's an overlooked aspect. I also think it depends on

32:48

Speaker A

what's happening in the couple, or to what extent this postpartum depression is a result of these unapologetic strategies, maybe not even the strategies we talked about , but rather what's happening in the couple earlier, because the later everything comes to light in the

33:06

Speaker A

postpartum period. Hmm. So, it's like we have different relationships in couples. Sometimes they're more partnership-based, sometimes it's the woman who dominates, sometimes the man who dominates. And now the question is, what was this man's relationship like with his

33:19

Speaker A

partner? If she's been acting this way up until now? Maybe she felt overlooked , so maybe this moment of labor, this moment of postpartum is a moment where I want the attention to be focused on her. But women often talk about it, too

33:34

Speaker A

, that when someone comes to visit, whether friends or family come, everyone gathers around the baby, and women often talk about it, too, that since the baby was born, for example, they feel invisible, sometimes they also feel invisible to

33:47

Speaker A

their partner. So it's also a couple dynamic. A lot of things stem from what happened between them before the birth, because it also comes out in the labor room.

34:02

Speaker A

In the labor room. In the labor room too. I only worked in the labor room at the very beginning of my career, after I finished school. So it was 15 years ago, but I still remember certain situations where a

34:14

Speaker A

couple can— we're talking about the movie-like hospital delivery experience, meaning when the woman arrives at the hospital, you're the one delivering the baby.

34:27

Speaker A

Yes. Yes. A couple can pretend to their friends and family that everything is fine. Okay. Let's say they're at home fighting or competing with each other, they come to the delivery room and it seems like they're a great couple, they

34:42

Speaker A

get along great, but the amount of emotions, the amount of things happening in that delivery room unfortunately brings out what's not worked out between them: their attitude towards each other, is there contempt, is there any cooperation, is there any

34:54

Speaker A

mutual support, is there any sign of the partner coming in, setting up the computer, the woman is having contractions at the same time, he's working because he has to finish a project, or he takes out his phone and

35:05

Speaker A

plays on it and only looks away or doesn't look away, handing her a bottle of water because she'll say," Pass me the bottle of water. "The delivery room is a special place.

35:15

Speaker A

Are you saying that there are people who play on their phones while their partner is giving birth?

35:20

Speaker A

Yes. Unfortunately, that's precisely the nature of couple dynamics and relationships. It's just that women often don't talk about it because they're simply ashamed.

35:30

Speaker A

Because if we pretend to be such a great couple every day, well, how can I put it? My friends now say," Okay, he went with me to the delivery room because all my friends gave birth together, so I'm taking my partner, my

35:41

Speaker A

husband too. But if I tell my mom, my aunt, my sister, listen, a grown man was sitting there playing this game, so there's a lot of stuff like that. The delivery room is a place where he'll get everything out of this couple,

35:56

Speaker A

because we have extreme emotions there, we have a certain level of pain, right? We have epidural anesthesia for labor, so they kind of numb us, but labor is a moment where we don't always have control over our bodies.

36:10

Speaker A

It's an extreme experience. It's also a moment where obstetrics and gynecology is a field where in a second something good can go wrong, where we end up saving the life of the baby or the mother. And this partner is also

36:26

Speaker A

experiencing extreme emotions. And these are probably also examples of sexology, this postpartum impotence, but the image of the partner during labor negatively impacts the partner's sexuality so much that she It doesn't seem so interesting anymore, or it turns out that what he saw makes sexual

36:48

Speaker A

intercourse difficult for such a man. I mean, sex after childbirth seems difficult to me in general, because, well, at the beginning, I always say, approach sex as if you were just starting your sexual life, at 15 or 16

37:07

Speaker A

years old. Just like when we enter this sexual life and learn what sex is all about and rediscover certain things.

37:13

Speaker A

Sex after childbirth can be surprising. Despite the sexual stimulation that we liked, which was great, it turns out that after giving birth, it doesn't suit us at all, that we're looking for something else altogether. Hormonal changes also mean that after postpartum

37:27

Speaker A

, even with appropriate sexual stimulation, or the right kind of stimulation for me, which has stimulated me so far, for example, the vaginal lubrication won't be adequate to what my partner gives me and what I theoretically like. For sex to be

37:41

Speaker A

enjoyable, there has to be some ease. But how can there be some ease? Like our child today? He decides to wake up every 15 minutes with a wall. We're in the middle of sex, and now we don't know whether to run or pretend not to

37:53

Speaker A

hear. And these are the moments where there's tension. He'll wake up, he won't wake up, he'll wake up, he won't wake up. So we don't have that complete relaxation. I'm also observing a slightly different phenomenon in sexuality that puzzles me, but I also

38:09

Speaker A

observe this among young men: that sexuality is fading into the background a bit, that it's more—I've been like this lately—that women are more likely to pursue sexuality, and do these men, somehow, from the responsibilities that fatherhood and the whole perinatal aspect seem to

38:25

Speaker A

provide, withdraw, as if focusing on other things, that they can focus so much on the fact that he has to earn money for the family because she's on maternity leave, that he has to maintain the house, that the in-laws

38:37

Speaker A

are coming, well, okay, I'll take care of it. So he's so focused on everything he has. Show that he's this super dad, this super head of the family, that sexuality is completely secondary. So Andrzej Gryżewski says nicely that

38:56

Speaker A

life is like sex. So if it's a life overloaded with tasks, then sex naturally doesn't exist. It doesn't exist. Yes. Yes.

39:05

Speaker A

I also interrupted you when we were talking about the delivery room, and you mentioned something that also caught my attention: that contempt appears there.

39:13

Speaker A

Sometimes, unfortunately, it happens like that, but this contempt doesn't suddenly appear in the delivery room; she was in a relationship before.

39:20

Speaker A

Okay. And here comes the delivery room, it's a place where everything intensifies. Yes. The couple won't be able to fake what's happening between them. At the beginning of labor, they can still pretend that everything is fine between them and play along, but in these

39:35

Speaker A

critical moments, their relationship with each other will be revealed. Unfortunately, it comes out, and these things can't be hidden. These are such critical moments, these are such intimate moments, where the medical staff She's involved in it. Sometimes we observe truly diverse situations,

39:49

Speaker A

like the postpartum period, where you go to this couple's house, to this couple, just after giving birth, where certain things aren't apparent in the hospital, where it seems the partner cares for the other, where the dust under their feet is practically removed

40:03

Speaker A

in the maternity ward. And then you go home to this couple, to the same one, where you saw cooperation in the ward for two days—because that's how long the stay is, two days—and you think, "Okay, it's great that I can continue

40:15

Speaker A

seeing them," and it turns out they lock you in your room, and you're left to deal with everything on your own.

40:22

Speaker A

And that cooperation is gone. So now the question is, what was happening in this couple before the birth? Were we building things for the public, for our friends? Did we feel good? Did we want to continue being together? You, or maybe we didn't want

40:37

Speaker A

to, but there was no way to leave this couple? Did we realize that this wasn't the man, the woman? But some technical, formal, and mortgage issues have gone too far. So we're stuck, because maybe it's time to have a child. There are

40:53

Speaker A

many cases here that, unfortunately, you say people don't have children just because they love each other and that it's the fruit of love between two adults. No, no, no, no. I mean, you know, I was surprised by the ease with

41:11

Speaker A

which...Because I completely agree and I think it's very accurate, and it was also very striking to me when I started working with people, when it turned out that it's not like in the movies, that people decide to have a child for very

41:29

Speaker A

different reasons, or decide to have that child with a partner or a partner who knows they shouldn't. And that's one aspect. And the second thing that also caught my attention is that you seem to have this very unique

41:46

Speaker A

opportunity to observe people in their natural environment, which no one else has. No one else comes to your house, as if to talk to people.

41:58

Speaker A

Mhm. Well, maybe Jehovah. That's not the case with those conversations back then. I mean, I was surprised. I remember when I started working with couples at home in the wards, in their natural environment.

42:16

Speaker A

I was surprised by these relationships, something completely unseen in the hospital, and I was surprised by this postpartum depression in men. I kind of discovered it three years ago, until then I didn't even realize that a man could be so burdened by the perinatal

42:32

Speaker A

period. And I also started delving into the typically medical side of things, looking for studies, and there aren't many.

42:41

Speaker A

Well, yes, and those statistics are also, in my opinion, significantly underestimated. 10%for me, one in four men. Because I started paying attention to my colleagues, I asked them, but they didn't seem to notice, so it's hard for me to draw an average. Y, but I think

42:56

Speaker A

this phenomenon is quite large, just underestimated, because men are less likely to seek help, even out of fear of being judged. That's what this one man told me: I won't go because it will definitely be a woman. She'll say I'm a

43:08

Speaker A

bad father. And you could see he wanted to, but he was so angry with this child that somehow this grief for his past life, that it took away that part of him, this amount of emotion working inside, simply prevented him from

43:22

Speaker A

helping himself. Mhm. Y, you know what, I wouldn't believe those statistics at all, because they were simply lumped in with depression. It's hard, you know, even from that perspective, such a person would have to go to a psychiatrist. He would have

43:41

Speaker A

to issue that F3 code, if I remember correctly, from the ICD, which would designate disorders from the depressive group. There's no subgroup of the disorder. I couldn't find one for men at all. If anyone watching might be familiar with this

43:55

Speaker A

scale and would be willing to share it in the comments, we use the Edinburgh Depression Scale to diagnose postpartum depression in women, but we don't have a separate one for men. Psychiatrists tend to use the Edinburgh scale. I couldn't find a

44:10

Speaker A

separate form for men, and these questions are typically aimed at women. So, how do you diagnose this man?

44:16

Speaker A

There's a significant gap here, I think . You know, that's where the issue of, well, this is the issue of how depression is diagnosed. However, the diagnosis of depression was guided only by the way the depression questionnaire looks, which, as you pointed out, is

44:32

Speaker A

related to the way it's diagnosed, and the fact that it's tailored to women stems from the fact that it was used to diagnose women. This means that women approached doctors or therapists with certain symptoms, and they then grouped

44:46

Speaker A

them based on that. And the questionnaires were created based on that. For men, it's the Gotland scale, I think, which has two more items, these additional questions—or maybe three—concerning a specific symptom that occurs in men, which is most

45:04

Speaker A

likely related to the testosterone-to-serotonin ratio. This means that what you mentioned occurs: such a suddenness in work or sports, that I start driving a bit more aggressively, and if someone cuts me off, I start honking and just want to

45:28

Speaker A

pull the guy over, because maybe I'm generally a calm person. So, this shorter landmass and this much greater irritability, that these things can't be resolved in a second, right? It's a kind of dust that simply starts everything, right? And this makes it seem like a

45:47

Speaker A

minor thing, and I have no control over it. Yes, such explosiveness. And I remember once talking about this with a man who was in the middle of, or rather , was struggling with, depression. We were just talking about this aggressive

46:06

Speaker A

driving thing once, and he said it somehow calmed him down, but at the same time, it was an attempt to get attention. It means he'd like someone to tell him, "Not how you drive, sir, but what's going on, that you're

46:25

Speaker A

driving like that? Maybe someone will see how much I suffer because I can't express it any other way than in such a masculine, aggressive way." So it's also interesting that, even in the context of the emails we exchanged

46:43

Speaker A

before our meeting, you so aptly observed this male depression and said, "Wow, this is something that's showing up more and more often here." And I think it's rarely talked about, and I'm also curious how this episode will be

46:59

Speaker A

received from that perspective. You know, we've also been focusing a bit on men, men more than women, right? And so, yes, even a little in the context of the words you mentioned, this patient or client, client, because he wasn't directly a patient,

47:20

Speaker A

in the context of fear of judgment, of how it would be received. And what about women? You also said that when we talk about postpartum depression, most often what comes to mind is this woman.

47:37

Speaker A

A woman. What does it look like? For women, it can be baby blues. Typically, as statistics show, 180%to 85%, meaning the first two weeks of the postpartum period, usually, in this postpartum period, there will be this irritability, this tearfulness. I

47:56

Speaker A

always say that a woman in postpartum has a moment when she cries, she doesn't know why she's crying. So she cries because she doesn't know why she's crying. It's simply a cycle you can't break. I always tell men then: "

48:08

Speaker A

Don't give advice. Make her some tea, hug her, kiss her, sit with her, don't talk," because men usually go into task mode then. I'll give her advice so my partner doesn't cry, because they want to help their woman. "And the

48:21

Speaker A

postpartum period isn't a good time to give advice. Don't leave the woman alone. Sit with her, hug her, kiss her, but don't just give advice, because unfortunately, this advice in Poland, even though with the best intentions and even though men

48:37

Speaker A

really have great ideas to make life a little easier, is not the best time. If these baby blues last longer, then we move into the stage of postpartum depression. This means it can appear a few weeks or even up to a year after

48:52

Speaker A

the baby is born. Statistics here also indicate, I don't know how accurate it is, that it affects 20 to 25%of women.

49:01

Speaker A

And here, at least from my observations , depression often coexists with anxiety disorders, meaning fear for the child and fear for oneself. It's also the irritability, tearfulness, the feeling that I'm a hopeless mother, worthless. There's also weight fluctuations, meaning either excessive

49:19

Speaker A

appetite or undereating, insomnia, sleep problems—a slightly different experience than men. This is also influenced by the hormonal storm that goes through the body after childbirth.

49:30

Speaker A

If we've had previous psychiatric treatment, a history of depression, for example, from which we've already recovered, unfortunately, the perinatal period can bring it back to us.

49:42

Speaker A

There are also expectations that flow down to men and women: what kind of mother I am, what kind of mother I should be in our Polish society. And here I often say to couples:" Ask yourselves what I want my motherhood to

49:55

Speaker A

look like? What do I want my fatherhood to look like? These social expectations or expectations from family will always flow, but do I want this, what do they all advise me? Do I want to breastfeed, do I want to formula feed? Do I want,

50:11

Speaker A

in which hospital do I want to give birth, and how? What kind of mother do I want to be, how do I want to raise my child? These are the questions worth asking yourself, even writing them down on a piece of paper, because there will

50:25

Speaker A

come a time when, I don't know, Aunt Krysia, Uncle Marek, Aunt Zosia will come and everyone will give good advice . So I can get lost in it, because at some point I'll think, wow, they raised five children, they know better than me

50:37

Speaker A

, because that's usually how it is. So I take out my notepad or listen to the voicemail, what have I recorded, what have I written down, what is important to me in this life of mine? "Motherhood , what I want to focus on, what I don't

50:49

Speaker A

want at all. Women are also heavily influenced by this aspect of postpartum body appearance.

50:56

Speaker A

Notice what happens. When a famous person gives birth, an article appears a week or two after giving birth. This person's belly, a week after giving birth. Oh, I haven't seen an article about this person's foot after giving birth, I don't know,

51:10

Speaker A

this person's ear after giving birth, no. The belly is a highlight that attacks us on social media, and on some , I don't know, gossip portals or in breakfast magazines, there are also comments. It looks great after giving

51:23

Speaker A

birth. How does it end later? A week after giving birth, women come up with the idea: I'll sign up for a fitness class because I have to get back quickly.

51:30

Speaker A

A week. Of course, they come up with this idea without waiting until after the postpartum period, which later ends with them ending up at a physiotherapist because, let's say, our rectus abdominis muscles will separate, so they force themselves into

51:43

Speaker A

tight-fitting underwear to slim down their body, in other words, they do their own thing. To spite your body.

51:53

Speaker A

There's a really cool graphic by Kasia Lisiak," My Body, My Pride, "and I think every woman should buy it and hang it—I don't know, on a mirror, on a wall—so as not to forget how she'll look at her body after giving birth.

52:05

Speaker A

That this body needs time to regenerate . It's not like I just come up with an idea, turn on an online workout, or go to the gym after giving birth. Give your body time to regenerate. That is, wait until the period is over and don't

52:19

Speaker A

immediately start doing crunches for the rectus abdominis muscles. Sometimes , in their rush to get back in shape as quickly as possible, to make that belly look great, they fall into the same trend that the media and social media

52:36

Speaker A

force upon us:" What do I look like after giving birth? "So we don't show a picture of a woman where I'm leaving my appointment on Monday at 5:00 PM. He's in a navy blue shirt with a towel over

52:46

Speaker A

his head, and I come to see them the next day because we're having lactation challenges, and this woman is still in the same navy blue shirt and towel over her head, and she says to me," Miss, why are you coming so early for these

52:57

Speaker A

appointments? "And almost a day has passed. So it's a postpartum period, and that's normal, but it's not talked about. I see a well-known woman who has given birth, who has beautifully made-up, hair done, in a beautiful dress, and looks absolutely gorgeous.

53:13

Speaker A

And that's not to say anything, but women who have just given birth see this and think," What's wrong with me, if she's a week postpartum in that tight dress, and my belly still looks like that baby wasn't even born. "

53:24

Speaker A

That's why women often say after giving birth," Those few hours after giving birth are in the maternity ward.' Miss, my baby is lying here, and my belly. 'Well, you'll see what it looks like. It still sticks out. My uterus needs time to

53:37

Speaker A

shrink. "This is physiology. It's not like I'll give birth and my uterus will immediately be behind the pubic symphysis. No, it's not. It's halfway between the symphysis and the navel. So we can't skip over the physiological things that aren't talked about. We

53:52

Speaker A

have a beautiful image of motherhood presented in the media, and then postpartum patients cry to me during appointments that they feel cheated by their mothers and sisters, especially because of social media, that everything was supposed to be so great.

54:05

Speaker A

This baby was supposed to be breastfed immediately. She wasn't supposed to have sore nipples. She was supposed to immediately feel that maternal instinct that's so much talked about in Poland: that you'll give birth and this, I don't know, the heavens will open and

54:18

Speaker A

this instinct will flow, you'll immediately feel love. And no one talks about it. Let's say three months after giving birth, the patient is still wondering when I'll feel love for my child, because that's not it, because I feel

54:30

Speaker A

like I've lost a lot. It's not talked about, and many women are disappointed because they're instilled with a completely different image, and then it's a reality check.

54:43

Speaker A

Interestingly, I've often heard pressure from women in my office, from these very mothers, aunts, and grandmothers, asking," Have you felt it yet? "" Have you already felt that instinct of motherhood, that I don't know, the heavens are opening up, it's

54:58

Speaker A

just pouring over me. "No, no, it doesn't look like that. That's why I always say it could be love at first sight, or at five, or at 10. It's not necessarily that I'll see my baby and love it right away. Extreme emotions

55:13

Speaker A

occur in the first two days of the postpartum period, where the newborn sleeps for the first day. I always say it like a retiree in Ciochocinek— generally calm, doesn't want anything from us, feedings are quite rare, and we think that this person will be this

55:26

Speaker A

calm for the rest of their life and won't cause problems like the neighbor's son. Ours will be calm.

55:31

Speaker A

Things are looking good on the second day, right? Things are looking good. On the second day, due to the physiology of this newborn and this little human adapting to life outside of their mother's body, they are the complete

55:42

Speaker A

opposite of themselves, behaving like a three-or four-year-old in a two-story Smyk on Świętokrzyska Street, running between the shelves, seeing a million toys, screaming, and not knowing what they want. These children on the second day are irritable, they can't put

55:55

Speaker A

things down. And that's the moment when , by the end of the second day, parents have had enough. And I always say that if you get the idea at the end of the second day that maybe I'll go to the

56:04

Speaker A

next room and leave my child for a few hours and come back soon, those are completely normal feelings. Because a newborn on the second day can really exhaust you, because even putting them in that crib within arm's reach causes

56:16

Speaker A

them to tear up, as if we'd, I don't know, left them in Warsaw and flown them to Argentina for a week.

56:22

Speaker A

This is due to the physiology of a newborn. They usually calm down on the third day and then things go back to normal. I always say that 15 years from now, when you're looking for your child after a party at 5:00 a.m. in Warsaw

56:34

Speaker A

and you remember the second day, you'll think that, all in all, it wasn't so bad, because at least they were there and didn't talk back. There's a solution. I'm wondering what advice you would give to people like this, men or

56:52

Speaker A

women, who experience such mood swings and, you know, find themselves in these descriptions. Would you recommend something other than seeing a psychiatrist or psychotherapist?

57:10

Speaker A

Breathing exercises, if they work for me. Hmm, it's like this: how can I cope in five minutes? Because if I even have a strategy for action, self-regulation, do they work?

57:23

Speaker A

Obviously, during the postpartum period , I don't have time for a three-hour massage, bath, or tub session because the newborn will soon cry. It's feeding time, changing time, but how can I help myself in five minutes? For example,

57:37

Speaker A

could it be going downstairs to the underground garage, locking the car, and putting on some soothing music? Not necessarily relaxing, classical music.

57:45

Speaker A

It could be heavy heavy metal. I'll put it on for five minutes, tear myself away in the car, and come back up and it'll be okay. Maybe it's taking out the trash and doing five extra laps around the block. Szulc and Jacobson's

57:58

Speaker A

autogenic training. I think it's something that calms me down in moments like these. Then, have one partner take over the baby for those 20 minutes. I put on this free workout on YouTube and relax. Some people fall asleep. I

58:13

Speaker A

sometimes have patients who fall asleep during labor induction, where their anxiety levels somewhat disconnect them from logical thinking, and their stress levels increase during induction, so this autogenic training really works.

58:26

Speaker A

Recently, a patient simply fell asleep during labor, even though they were having contractions. The contractions calmed down, she slept for two hours, and things moved on beautifully. So, I think about what helps me, what will help me within five minutes, but I

58:40

Speaker A

write it down on paper—about three points, because usually in this stressful situation, I'll forget about it. Or I can record a voice message, maybe some affirmations that I'll record on my phone, or I'll write them down on a

58:52

Speaker A

piece of paper, keep it in the bathroom , and read it to myself before each shower. I have to find something that helps me. If I don't have strategies that regulate me today without my baby, then I have to look for them, what

59:04

Speaker A

helps me, because everyone's different. Hmm. Well, it's also interesting that you said, you talk a lot about not trusting that you'll somehow cope and figure it out in a stressful situation, but that this strategy should be prepared well in advance,

59:19

Speaker A

right? Yes, like a cheat sheet. Mhm. Well, I completely agree with that , because I think it's true even from a physiological perspective, that when we're flooded with cortisol, it cuts us off from logical thinking, and we have

59:32

Speaker A

this tunnel vision. It's a bit difficult to see, it'll be difficult to think of anything. Yes.

59:38

Speaker A

Yes. I'm also wondering about that, because whether or not I still want to go back to the delivery room for a while. Are men increasingly choosing to accompany their partners during labor?

59:54

Speaker A

From what I've noticed, yes. Yes. Couples, more likely. I think it's a good idea. It depends on the couple. It depends on whether they want it together, or whether they're going there because it's the right thing to do. Am I going there because

60:05

Speaker A

it's not the right thing to tell my partner I don't want to? Or do I stay in the delivery room because I'm afraid to tell her I'm leaving for the second stage of labor? Do I want this husband

60:16

Speaker A

to come with me, even though I don't feel it, because all my friends gave birth with these partners? So how do I tell them now that I won't go with them , and for example, I feel I don't want

60:25

Speaker A

to, for example, I prefer to be surrounded by only women, yes, during labor. So it all depends on the couple, what they want. An honest conversation is crucial here. Agreeing that if at any point I, as the woman in labor, or

60:39

Speaker A

you, as my partner, feel that it's okay to leave for now, then let's agree that there's full consent. So, I can leave during labor or come back to you when I feel better. Or if I tell you to leave

60:52

Speaker A

because I don't want you in the delivery room anymore, then there won't be any resentment, like later, when we have a baby, we'll discuss why you told me to leave. Because that's how I felt.

61:02

Speaker A

So, as a couple, we have to agree on a date, and how much can we allow ourselves to be honest with each other in this couple? How much of this is appropriate and inappropriate? What should I say, shouldn't I say, and the

61:14

Speaker A

same applies to the men. How honest can we be? If, say, Krysia's mother-in-law calls, how can I tell her I asked him out? She'll throw a fit. Yes, just like she's been doing to me my whole life, as we've been together, so how much do

61:30

Speaker A

I feel I can be true to myself, and how much do I feel I can be true to myself in what I want, as long as we know each other in this couple?

61:39

Speaker A

So, it's all a kind of crisis management exercise, to prepare everything properly for this moment, because we already need to have specific instructions like this, so I'll do this and think about what should simply go, right? Yes. And I

61:52

Speaker A

have a feeling it is, a little bit, but give myself flexibility in this, because it means allowing for such change, meaning I can have this checklist, right? Yes, but anything can be, or it can be the other way around. That's

62:05

Speaker A

what I mean, because when you talk about all this, I get the impression that people have this very sugar-coated scenario, that somehow it will all work out and everything will work out, because I guess in movies it usually does. Yes,

62:20

Speaker A

yes. Well, I remember one of my former partners once saying to me," I wish I could just go to that delivery room and hold your hand. "And I, having worked in this profession for years, thought to myself," Jesus, he doesn't even know

62:32

Speaker A

what's going on in that delivery room. "So I'm like, what's going on? So I mean, these are surprising things, not even the lack of control over my own body, and life-threatening things, right? Or mine as a partner, where then my partner

62:51

Speaker A

seems to be hesitant to all the extreme emotions. These post-traumatic stress syndromes that occur after childbirth or emergency births in women, and in men as well, if I see my partner, I don't know, losing consciousness, having a postpartum hemorrhage, I also

63:07

Speaker A

fear for her life. Yes, there's also the added worry of a little human being being born to us. So the emotions in that delivery room are so extreme, and sometimes the events can be so extreme, despite the beautiful moments that

63:22

Speaker A

happen there, that we really have to be flexible with each other as partners. So we can arrange to give birth together, but if I tell you during labor," Listen, leave, "because I just thought—I don't know, your smell annoys me, or your voice annoys me

63:36

Speaker A

during labor—because that's how it can be. So leave and don't be offended, okay? Come back after the birth, right?

63:42

Speaker A

I'll let you know that our baby is born . So let's be flexible. Or if I say to this partner, listen, no, it was different in the movies, it's somehow different here, I guess I don't necessarily feel good. I won't be as

63:57

Speaker A

supportive as I'd like. I'll come back after...Well, it's probably very rare for someone to be so aware of advice, rarely, and that's the only thing that communication in a relationship is, right? So that's all, I don't think it's

64:10

Speaker A

about communication in a relationship, but about an issue related to such deep self-awareness, because how could it be that I know too, but on the other hand, gosh, is it like you said, so much is happening in such a short time that I

64:26

Speaker A

can even imagine that She might say," Get out of here, I just can't stand your smell. " Yes. And in a moment, do you want to?

64:33

Speaker A

Come back in a moment. Yes. And the same goes the other way, that I can't handle it, I'll leave and think," No, no, no, it can't be like this, that I'll just let it go, right? "and I come

64:42

Speaker A

back. So I guess, well, there can be extreme emotions there, and you have to let them go. I'll also refer to the postpartum period, because often patients who are taught such a corporate lifestyle, i.e., these cheek lists, meaning we have a whole list of

64:58

Speaker A

tasks for a given day, unfortunately, later in the postpartum period end up making these checklists, and often there's this whine, like, what's the point—you'll see. Until now, I had 10 tasks, I did all 10 plus two more from

65:11

Speaker A

another list. Now I have 10 written down, and I haven't even done two. So the swallow has to teach us flexibility , that I'll write down this list of 10 tasks, but It might be that I don't do

65:22

Speaker A

anything today. It might be that I do one thing today and I can't be held accountable for it. And often it's task-oriented people, corporate ones, that I encounter this the most, because it also applies to men: they have such

65:35

Speaker A

a plan for the whole day, and we lose that flexibility, and usually there's just crying. I don't know where my organizational skills went. They're still there. It's just that this child brings us something new, brings their own plan for our life together, so we

65:51

Speaker A

have to open up to it and give them space. This person, something we often forget, has a distinct personality, which they demonstrate from the first days of their life. Just because we think of something, our child won't necessarily come up with it themselves.

66:06

Speaker A

Well, I have to admit that a child really teaches incredible flexibility in changing plans. I remember a couple who, while still pregnant, planned their child's entire journey, swimming lessons starting this week and this week. The nursery had already been

66:25

Speaker A

chosen, the preschool had already been chosen, practically Elementary school already had a major, and there was already a major for high school, but they weren't registered for it yet. And on the one hand, I understand wanting our child to have the best possible

66:39

Speaker A

life. We already know what works and we want to help them somehow, so it might be easier for them than for us. But on the other hand, isn't that some form of control? And if it turns out our child

66:51

Speaker A

has it—we enrolled them in that math class—it turns out that, for example, I don't know, they're more into artists , painting, and then those two worlds happen. So let's be open to what our child brings us and what our child

67:04

Speaker A

brings to us in our relationship, because they will bring only the best things. We just have to be open to it.

67:12

Speaker A

And sometimes couples, out of this anxiety and fear, want everything under control so much that we hold on to it and forget that life can't be completely planned. I can set certain points for myself.

67:25

Speaker A

Tacking is a good word from sailing, meaning I choose these points and follow the wind. I can choose these points in motherhood. Fatherhood, but I also have to be flexible to what this new person entering this relationship brings me. Because even if it's the

67:41

Speaker A

fifth child, they'll still fight for their piece of the floor, and some things will have to be reorganized.

67:46

Speaker A

It's not just the first child who, so to speak, messes with our relationships and reorganizes them. The fifth or sixth will fight for their piece of the floor in the same way and bring something new. We just have to be open

67:57

Speaker A

to it. They say that many couples break up after the birth of a child, and then there's also this, well, statistically, quite a lot of divorces. What could be the reason for this? And from your perspective, what leads to the fact

68:18

Speaker A

that at this crucial moment when this child arrives, when we should be supporting each other, people drift apart so much that they decide to separate. In my opinion, from what I see, these are not just unspoken expectations. M

68:34

Speaker A

So we don't agree on what kind of father I want you to be, and you don't tell me. What kind of mother do you want me to be to our child? When we see our parenting, because we don't talk

68:44

Speaker A

about it, it surfaces in our daily lives. It leads to minor conflicts, frustrations with each other. But here we're talking about the practical aspects you mentioned, specifically breastfeeding or formula feeding. Or is it more about something deeper, something related

69:04

Speaker A

to the deeper, namely raising this child, how we want this little person to be? But I also relate to what I said earlier, the expectations for this daily life. I often say this to couples because it's easy to say," Sit down and

69:22

Speaker A

talk. "But you know, when you sit down at home, your brain doesn't always hear every sentence your partner says, because they're adding to something they already know. And instead of calmly and substantively talking, we end every discussion with an argument.

69:40

Speaker A

I always say to write down our mutual expectations for each other, meaning how I want them to behave towards the child and towards me . He's the father of my child, and the same goes for my partner. Let's draw

69:55

Speaker A

cards from the jar, put them in that bowl, and talk about it. Maybe this will simply make it easier for us to mutually establish common goals for the rest of our lives, because that first year is truly a rollercoaster, a

70:09

Speaker A

rollercoaster, and we have to be open to it. If we don't know what we expect from each other, we'll probably start to drift apart because we'll start looking outside for what the relationship could give us. But it's also true that in these relationships,

70:27

Speaker A

even though we sometimes say what we want openly, the other person isn't necessarily open to listening.

70:34

Speaker A

So I think it's the communication in the relationship that leads to these separations. I also wanted to ask about the difficult topic of losing a child.

70:51

Speaker A

What happens to people when they lose a child? It's usually a shock, especially when a couple comes to the emergency room with a full-term pregnancy and there's no heartbeat. So, the baby has died. For example, they come to the

71:16

Speaker A

delivery room. I remember once, at the beginning of my career, I worked in the emergency room, and a couple came in for their second labor with their daughter, who, because they didn't know if it was already starting, had to be

71:31

Speaker A

dropped off at her grandparents' house. And then this little girl told me," My brother lives here, in my mom's belly, I'm going to play with him. "And I could already see I couldn't find a heartbeat, so we took the patient for

71:43

Speaker A

an ultrasound, and unfortunately, it turned out the baby was dead. These are extreme emotions for both the staff and the family, whose first reaction is usually shock and disbelief. Hmm, there are also those moments when we go for

72:01

Speaker A

an appointment and everything was fine a month earlier, and we go back a month later and it turns out things aren't so good after all. Yes, the situation has changed dynamically, er, or our water breaks at 20 weeks.

72:16

Speaker A

Something unpredictable, too. So, er, these people are, er, in a state of shock. I even feel like we're sometimes in a state of dissociation, a kind of wall, that we're sort of shutting out all these visual and yawning signals. These

72:40

Speaker A

are difficult times for me. These are difficult times. Sometimes it's as if the family only realizes later that such a tragedy is happening. Mhm. Do you think that people change irreversibly after such news? They definitely need time to sort things out

73:05

Speaker A

within themselves and their relationship. It's the same as if we have a couple with a history of numerous miscarriages. They also need time to sort things out, because there's usually this fear: what if we get pregnant again and, let's say

73:22

Speaker A

, our baby dies again at 19 weeks? What if we get pregnant and have a fifth miscarriage? The sheer amount of emotion involved in a given situation simply means a couple may not want to go through it again. These are

73:40

Speaker A

situations where a couple is undergoing IVF and the next attempt doesn't work. How much strength do we still have?

73:46

Speaker A

Maybe we have the financial resources, for example, if anything, but how much strength do we have as a couple mentally to attempt another attempt?

73:55

Speaker A

Because sometimes the calmest couple in the infertility clinic, on their, I don't know, fifth or sixth attempt, just starts to explode at each other in the hallway.

74:04

Speaker A

Mmm. This greatly affects the couple, their relationships, and sometimes these couples break up at these moments because each begins to grieve in their own way. Sometimes they're in this together.

74:21

Speaker A

They break up in moments of loss. Or do they break up in moments of loss? So the emotions between them are so intense that each begins to grieve separately within the couple, and they can drift apart to the

74:33

Speaker A

point where the relationship simply falls apart, that they become isolated in their own suffering. I grieved individually, not as a couple.

74:52

Speaker A

I remember when I was still working in a corporation and managing, I was simply a team leader, and one of my tasks was purely administrative. And those were the days when we submitted paper applications for leave, for overtime, for example. And one of the

75:11

Speaker A

leave requests that I handled was special leave. I remember a situation when an employee came to me, knowing his wife was pregnant, and hmm, I knew it was getting close to the due date, and he came to me with two documents,

75:31

Speaker A

two days each, specifically related to a request for special leave. And I thought people were getting confused, especially since they rarely submitted these requests. Because the special leave entitlement is so limited. And I remember what was so striking to me,

75:56

Speaker A

and I think in some way it still sticks with me—if not that I didn't figure it out, maybe not that I didn't put it together, but I'm working on remembering—that when I asked him if he was sure these were the right

76:08

Speaker A

applications, he said yes, that his child was born and then died, so from a legal perspective, he was entitled to it. And I remember feeling completely out of place, knowing I'd have to ask him for a document confirming the birth

76:30

Speaker A

and death. So, well, I remember that what also surprised me was that I asked him if he needed anything right now in terms of work, whether it was less work , or some time off, that we could simply arrange some time off that

76:48

Speaker A

simply wouldn't be on the records. And I remember he said he just needed to come to work now. And it was so, so, so , so, so striking for me, especially since, well, I don't want to judge who

77:05

Speaker A

deserves suffering and who doesn't. But I remember what was also so striking: he was such a kind man, with his heart in his mouth, and, well, I often think of him in the context of such a loss.

77:24

Speaker A

These are difficult times. I mean, the death of a family member is always difficult, but we tend to associate pregnancy with something pleasant, joyful, and pleasant. No one expects that when they're pregnant, they see the baby's heartbeat, and then suddenly

77:42

Speaker A

at the next appointment it turns out the heart isn't beating, or that they go into labor and think they're having labor contractions, only to find out their baby is dead. Or I'm pregnant and it turns out the blood flow is poor in

77:55

Speaker A

the placenta and the baby's head, and I have to go to the hospital. These are the moments where it brings us to perhaps the worst, darkest corners of our mental state. It's important to get help then. I'm talking about

78:22

Speaker A

psychological and psychiatric support, so we don't fear it. Mmm, and also give that person what they need. If that's when your employee needed work, maybe it was easier for them to cope with the loss. And you know what, I also want it to resonate

78:42

Speaker A

throughout this story: I remember how difficult it was not to change my approach to him, and that I wasn't entirely sure how to talk to him. That, of course, what surprised me—I wanted to help him, but throughout the whole situation

79:03

Speaker A

, I was a little afraid that anything I had to say would be perceived as a reminder of this difficult experience.

79:13

Speaker A

So I noticed that I naturally began to withdraw, or at least slip into a very strange professionalism. And it was also a situation that the other employees probably didn't know about either. So I'm also trying to say that

79:31

Speaker A

I think people often don't know how to behave in such crisis situations, and they naturally withdraw from them so as not to offend someone, so as not to offend someone, which is sometimes even worse.

79:45

Speaker A

Even worse. It's worth asking what the person needs . Maybe they just need to sit with you in silence for two hours, um, on a park bench. And maybe that, or maybe they don't want to talk at all, or maybe

79:58

Speaker A

they just need to be heard, to tell you the whole story: what it was like, what the arrival at the hospital was like, when we found out we saw that the heart wasn't there on the ultrasound. You have to ask, because everyone will need

80:12

Speaker A

something different at that moment, at that moment. Um, it's important, I think, not to leave these people alone, because that's hmm, just like I remember most of the, uh, patients, or those, uh, men, who I go home with, but

80:28

Speaker A

they stay here in the hospital. I remember a man I finally pulled a couch over for because it was the middle of the night, it was a single-person ward, it was in my first hospital, at my first job, and I told him straight out,

80:43

Speaker A

" Don't go anywhere, sir, to any car, because I saw he was in such a state that he was about to have an accident.

80:49

Speaker A

"You sit down, you stay, I don't know, with your wife for the night, you don't want to sleep, so you just sit there quietly. You're alone in the ward, you stay until morning, your older child is with his grandparents. Just calmly call

81:01

Speaker A

and tell him you're staying in the hospital so he doesn't get in the car in that state, because it's such a shock that he won't be paying attention on the road, because his child just died. So it's worth asking what you need at that

81:15

Speaker A

moment. God, I just want to sit in a room with you. Or maybe I want to talk and not listen at all? Or maybe I want to hear what you think I can do about it? Maybe you have an idea, who happens

81:29

Speaker A

to be that shining light for me. Okay, that will help me. Maybe talk about work.

81:35

Speaker A

Maybe talk about work. Let's talk about something else altogether. Yes, because , for example, I don't want to talk about this topic. It's difficult. I have the impression that the medical profession in general is sometimes a kind of crisis intervention, because we

81:56

Speaker A

really—obstetrics and gynecology—is a very specific field and so unique, that we are with these people in their most intimate moments, in the moments of birth, death, precisely this relationship within a couple that is being rebuilt. And we see it all, and

82:13

Speaker A

we are on the front line, where sometimes various unexpected reactions from these people can spill out in these extreme moments. You get hit with a backlash.

82:25

Speaker A

Sometimes like this, sometimes like that. It's like I know this person is in such a state that they might not remember what they said to me in a moment, under great stress. Um, so I also take that into account after so

82:40

Speaker A

many years of work, and uh, it's important that Be open to the other person and be aware that a patient, client, or companion in the hospital may react differently to a given situation.

82:54

Speaker A

For example, a patient in a stressful situation might start laughing because that's how she reacts to stress. So, years of work and experience truly provide this opportunity for openness to another person, for building relationships, but also for being with

83:12

Speaker A

these people in truly intimate moments. Because, well, obstetrics and gynecology is connected to our reproductive system, it's connected to the nakedness of the body, and it's connected to those moments where we don't let others into this space. Hmm.

83:31

Speaker A

So, it's often like working in crisis intervention, because these people are in extreme emotional distress. They come back two days later and say, for example," You know what, I'm sorry, because I really don't know why I behaved this way. "I felt really bad

83:43

Speaker A

later when I realized what I'd said in that stressful situation. Yes, but I knew, for example, that my partner was having a contraction. I knew, for example, that there was no room in the delivery room, so the amount of

83:53

Speaker A

emotions was so intense that I accidentally yelled at you, right? But I know, for example, that this was happening here, so it wasn't surprising to me. It was like I knew this person was in extreme emotional states and that various

84:07

Speaker A

things were happening. I remember a situation where a patient was in the very early stages of labor in the perinatology ward, where while waiting for a place in the delivery room, she was kneeling on the floor and...I just

84:22

Speaker A

wanted to do the lady right, so she could kneel on the bed; I put it on the bedrest for her to be more comfortable, and I only wanted it to be more comfortable. The reaction to these extreme emotions was that I heard how

84:39

Speaker A

many children you've born, that you know I'll be better off on this bed. So I know this story from the very beginning. Everyday life, and I know this woman didn't mean to offend me, that I know the amount of emotion and

84:55

Speaker A

stress she was feeling while waiting for the delivery room. Here, the contractions intensify. Here, we have the beginning of labor, for example, so it's not always the right time to transfer it to the delivery room. So, as staff, we try to help the patient as

85:10

Speaker A

much as we can at that moment, and our help isn't necessarily always perceived as help. Over time, these emotions, along with the stress that builds up somewhere, because here we're worried about the baby, there we're worried about a contraction, here my husband

85:25

Speaker A

said something to us that wasn't right, something we wanted, so the tension has to be released somewhere, and sometimes it's released on the staff. So, there's a really large range of tolerance.

85:35

Speaker A

Sometimes you have to have it within yourself to not feel offended, because this patient, he doesn't want to offend us, he won't forget it in a moment, or in two days he'll apologize and say," Gosh, I don't even know, I don't know

85:46

Speaker A

why I said that. "You know what? I was so nervous, and I said that, but I felt really embarrassed, didn't I? So you don't take it personally, do you? You have to give someone permission to be there, so that, in all

86:01

Speaker A

their emotionality, which can come with obstetrics and gynecology. Is there a birth that you'll remember for the rest of your life? Birth wasn't one of those moments. I worked in the gynecology ward at the beginning of my career,

86:24

Speaker A

after the delivery room, I moved to the gynecology ward. In the gynecology ward , we mostly have older patients, and they tell their life stories: about children, about men (not necessarily just about their current husband), about their career paths. So, sometimes

86:43

Speaker A

these are truly beautiful love stories, life stories, and professional stories. So, I built a lot of these relationships with patients there. Um, unfortunately, sometimes these patients died during my shifts, and I, for example, later knew that Marek, who has

87:01

Speaker A

three sons, would come for these things , or Kasia, who had just given birth to her second granddaughter. So, it's as if the gynecology ward gives I think it was an opportunity to delve even deeper into this patient's family resources,

87:16

Speaker A

to build these relationships, and I still remember some of those gynecology patients. You know, as I said, I have the impression that you have such a strong psychological trait, that you were simply a therapist, and now, simply put, you're taking tools that

87:33

Speaker A

were supposed to systematize it in some way. Yes, this school of psychotherapy started to circulate around me with sexology, but I think it was thanks to the psychologists who were in that program with me at the time, because

87:48

Speaker A

medical professionals are more task-oriented, focused on something, and psychology is a bit of a distraction, um, and they showed me various other aspects of my work that I hadn't paid attention to. And that's also how it later emerged with those

88:03

Speaker A

couples, specifically in the perinatal period. And this therapeutic, psychotherapeutic path, which I've been on for several years now, continues to develop me and deepen it. Somewhere, that started me in At some point, it's fascinating. A couple in postpartum is

88:20

Speaker A

something beautiful, interesting, and what happens in that relationship, how it overflows, and the interactions between them—well, that's truly beautiful.

88:31

Speaker A

Mhm. Do you have space for obstetric services now? Yes. Can I sign up with you?

88:41

Speaker A

Yes, yes. But I've also switched from single visits, which I kind of provided until the end of the year, or single lactation or postpartum visits, to more of a package deal.

88:56

Speaker A

I also noticed that I would leave the lactation consultation and still spend the next two weeks with that patient on calls, texts, a return visit, and there was a follow-up visit somewhere, so usually the contact didn't end with

89:08

Speaker A

just one visit. Mhm. Obstetrics and gynecology is a field where these relationships matter. This perinatal period is a moment of a bit of a crisis, perhaps of our identity, too, that we need to rebuild ourselves, and this relationship, the presence of

89:24

Speaker A

a constant person around us, gives us such strength. And maybe the motivation to build something new. So that's why I changed a bit, more so that I started working in packages of visits rather than individual services, because I see

89:38

Speaker A

that it gives my patients and clients more support. They feel safe and cared for.

89:46

Speaker A

And if someone would like to come to couples therapy, can they come too? Yes, I invite you to individual support , individual couples, and here I also went into packages with this in mind, so to speak. The package of visits is

90:02

Speaker A

counseling, right? Exactly, I mean, I'm separating the perinatal areas as if they were one thing. Individual couples therapy is already something else in this postnatal support, meaning that while I'm not conducting a lactation consultation, there's a different range

90:24

Speaker A

of visits, meaning the couple has to figure out what they need from me at a given moment.

90:29

Speaker A

Well, it probably comes up later anyway . You know what, we've gone through a lot of threads, but I'm wondering if you'd like to use this platform to address something to people, something they're going through. They overlook in

90:51

Speaker A

the context of preparing for the arrival of this little human being, what would you like to direct their attention to?

90:59

Speaker A

To focus on themselves, on each other. On each other, on ourselves as a couple, that is, what we want in our motherhood, fatherhood, and parenthood. What do we want in this couple? I think this is the most important thing. A stroller for 10,000

91:13

Speaker A

won't help us if we argue 10 times a day after the baby is born. Or, I don't know, the latest clothes, it doesn't matter. We'll buy all that later. It will work out; you can borrow them from friends, buy them on various platforms.

91:31

Speaker A

The most important thing is how we communicate with each other, how we organize things, and what we expect from each other, so that we know about it. So that these...so that there's no need to arrange things as they arise,

91:44

Speaker A

but let's at least agree on what we can and accept a certain degree of flexibility that it might not necessarily go according to plan. But let's be open to each other, that they might change our minds. surprise our

91:55

Speaker A

own reactions in the postpartum period, that the baby can trigger such emotions in us that we will behave a little differently towards each other, but only then, so that we have the courage to ask what's going on. Or say directly

92:07

Speaker A

:" Listen, I need help. Or maybe you need help, if I know that the other person in the couple can't say that I need help. "So let's open up to each other and build ourselves as a couple.

92:18

Speaker A

I also wanted to ask about one thing: Is it typical for men to escape into work during postpartum?

92:27

Speaker A

M. Yes and no. Sometimes I have such couples, men, but it also seems to stem from these relationships, their pre-partum days, that they operate in a totally relational and partnership-like manner, they even complement each other so much that sometimes I have the

92:44

Speaker A

impression that when I go to a postpartum visit, I have the impression that they communicate without words.

92:49

Speaker A

Mhm. The woman changes the baby's diaper, the woman gives the baby the milk, the woman gives the pillow, who during this time, I don't know, washes the bottle. Sometimes it happens that the man wants to take over the care of

93:04

Speaker A

the baby, but the partner takes over this space so strongly that discussions start again, you fastened the diaper incorrectly, you change it too slowly.

93:13

Speaker A

Only here it also results from the fact that if I do something more, I change the baby more often. If I change the diaper more often, I know I'll do it more efficiently and faster. It's like watching us, freshly dressed, parents

93:25

Speaker A

watching the staff dress or change the baby in a second, while they spend half an hour with that diaper, and the battle continues. So the more we do something, the more we'll improve. And it's important not to fall into this

93:39

Speaker A

pattern: I do better, you do worse. We're learning, and we give ourselves space for that. Just because I spend an hour fastening a diaper won't happen, nothing will happen. Just because my partner dresses the baby for the next

93:51

Speaker A

two hours won't happen either. It won't affect the metal's quality. Two hours means we'll give ourselves the openness to learn, and we'll both learn.

94:03

Speaker A

There's simply a certain group of men who will escape into work. There's a certain group of men who will lock themselves in a separate room during a postpartum visit and act as if he's not there at all.

94:14

Speaker A

But there's also a group of men who, with I'd divide the willingness to participate into three groups: those men who participate willingly and it's clear that these relationships are based on partnership, and those who leave the woman alone and are generally

94:27

Speaker A

surprised that she says she's tired. And those men who initially want to take the initiative, but they hear it from their mother, their partner, or their mother-in-law—not quite. And somewhere, the more feminine power intervenes in this care, this child.

94:46

Speaker A

They are evenly sized groups. Hmm. I think I'd say I encounter the least of these partnership-type ones.

94:57

Speaker A

However, these were the first ones, so I thought it wasn't like that, but less often, less often. I'd say maybe 25 to 30%, no, because there, well, yes, more like 20, and those after 40. Hmm. Hmm.

95:15

Speaker A

But is the partnership approach still there? Less? Less. Yes, but I'm saying this, a lot also depends on what was going on in the couple before, so again. We're going back to the idea that this is the lens through which

95:29

Speaker A

these things are viewed. Let's build our relationships as a couple, because if we sweep something under the rug, our child will definitely pick it up.

95:36

Speaker A

Especially since you also told the story of the man who experienced greater difficulties with his second child. It sounded a bit like it might simply change over time.

95:46

Speaker A

Yes. Mmhm. Listen, thank you so much for talking to us. Thank you too. So, well, we're keeping our fingers crossed.

95:59

Speaker A

Good luck. Good luck to all the couples who will be watching and preparing for the perinatal period.

96:06

Speaker A

Exactly. So, we're keeping our fingers crossed. Yes. Thank you so much. Thanks. New episodes every Sunday and every other Thursday at 7:00 PM. Thanks for listening.

Topics: postpartum depression baby blues relationship after birth perinatal mental health couples therapy midwifery parenting communication postpartum anxiety newborn preparation psychological impact of childbirth

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