**"Why I QUIT working with Steven Bartlett" | Grace Andrews | Success School | E253 — Transcript & Summary | SozAI** Source: https://sozai.app/transcript/why-i-quit-working-with-steven-bartlett-grace-andre-transcript/ Grace Andrews shares her journey working with Steven Bartlett on Diary of a CEO, revealing persistence, hard work, and mindset behind its success. ## Key Takeaways - Persistence and aggressive follow-up can open doors even when not actively job hunting. - Visualizing success and committing fully to goals can drive career breakthroughs. - Hard work and obsessing over details compound over time to create standout success. - Building a successful brand or show requires long-term dedication and often unseen effort. - Success in new fields can be achieved without prior experience by learning and working harder than others. ## What the video covers - Grace Andrews was the third hire for Steven Bartlett's Diary of a CEO and worked there for nearly five years. - She transitioned from journalism to social media and aggressively pursued the social media manager role through persistence and personal branding. - Diary of a CEO was always envisioned as the biggest show in the world, not just a podcast. - The team obsessed over details and worked harder than anyone else, dedicating years to build the show's success. - Early growth was slow with a small concentrated audience before scaling to one of the biggest podcasts globally. - Success was driven by consistent effort, visualization, and a mindset focused on compounding progress. - The team had no prior podcasting or media experience but learned and adapted through hard work. - Grace emphasizes the importance of persistence, standing out, and putting in more reps than others. - Replicating Diary of a CEO’s success is difficult without a dedicated full-time team and similar commitment. - The story highlights the unseen groundwork behind popular brands and the value of sacrificing other life areas for career goals. Answers ## Questions about this video What was Grace Andre's role at Diary of a CEO and for how long was she there? Grace Andre was the social media manager for Steven Bartlett's brand, and she was the third hire for Diary of a CEO. She worked there for nearly five years, starting when the podcast was just beginning. How did Grace Andre come to work with Steven Bartlett? Grace saw a LinkedIn post from Steven Bartlett looking for a social media manager for his own brand. Despite not actively looking for a job and enjoying her freelance career, she applied because she felt she could learn a lot from him. What was Grace Andre's background before joining Steven Bartlett? Grace Andre studied journalism but found it depressing, so she transitioned into social media. She was working as a freelancer with various clients before seeing Steven Bartlett's job posting. ## Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown 00:00 Speaker A So 02:06 Speaker A Welcome 02:08 Speaker B terrifyingly big photo of my face that I can see 02:14 Speaker A in 02:15 Speaker B my periphery 02:16 Speaker A And I'll let you know it's here for the whole chat 02:20 Speaker B Yeah 02:20 Speaker A We'll just keep looking that way 02:21 Speaker A We'll keep looking that way 02:22 Speaker A Grace, welcome to Business Mastery Live 02:24 Speaker B Thank you so much, thank you for having me 02:26 Speaker A I want to start with the thing that obviously most people will know you for, which is Diary of a CEO, working with Steven Bartlett 02:34 Speaker A You were, I believe, was it the third hire of of Diary of a CEO 02:38 Speaker A and you were there for nearly five years, is that right? 02:40 Speaker B Done some good research 02:41 Speaker A Oh yeah 02:43 Speaker B Yeah 02:43 Speaker B I was 02:44 Speaker B um 02:45 Speaker B so 02:46 Speaker B I 02:47 Speaker B joined 02:48 Speaker B when 02:50 Speaker B so 02:51 Speaker B people 02:52 Speaker B it's 02:53 Speaker B funny 02:54 Speaker B because 02:55 Speaker B people 02:57 Speaker B uh knew Steven Bartlett back in 2020 03:00 Speaker B either if you lived in Manchester or if you worked in social media 03:03 Speaker B I was the latter 03:04 Speaker B I've born and bred in London 03:06 Speaker B but I worked in social media 03:08 Speaker B so I'd come across this guy called Steven on LinkedIn a few times 03:10 Speaker B Um 03:11 Speaker B I was progressing in sort of my freelance career 03:13 Speaker B I actually studied journalism but 03:15 Speaker B we don't need to go back into all of that 03:17 Speaker B Um I found journalism very depressing 03:19 Speaker B so I moved into social media 03:21 Speaker B Um 03:22 Speaker B and I saw this post go up on LinkedIn 03:25 Speaker B and it was Steven Bartlett on LinkedIn and he was like 03:29 Speaker B looking for a social media manager for my own brand 03:32 Speaker B And I've sat there thinking 03:33 Speaker B I wasn't in the market for a job 03:35 Speaker B I was loving freelancing 03:36 Speaker B I had these amazing clients 03:38 Speaker B I was just like finally felt like I was thriving in my career 03:40 Speaker B and then I saw this post and I was like 03:42 Speaker B if I'm going to learn from anyone in this space, it's probably going to be this guy 03:45 Speaker B So I didn't go too much about him but I just dropped the application in the same way everyone else did 03:48 Speaker B And um yeah, two weeks later I was 03:51 Speaker B let all my clients go 03:53 Speaker B was in the office 03:54 Speaker B was being told about this new podcast he wanted to start called The Diary of a CEO 03:58 Speaker B Um and yeah, it was just me the producer Jack 04:00 Speaker B who's still there, executive director and Steve 04:02 Speaker A Do you know why you picked you? 04:04 Speaker B Um 04:06 Speaker B I 04:08 Speaker B I don't know the reason 04:10 Speaker B he didn't firstly he didn't directly hire me 04:12 Speaker B he's very much was like his manager was sort of hiring at the time 04:14 Speaker B And um I was extremely, extremely persistent 04:17 Speaker B Once I had my eye set on that, I couldn't think about anything else 04:20 Speaker B I'm someone who's like an all or nothing kind of person 04:23 Speaker B And I had already sort of visualized having that role 04:27 Speaker B I that was my role 04:28 Speaker B that was my job 04:29 Speaker B that was my next job title 04:30 Speaker B So I had already mentally 04:33 Speaker B almost got the job 04:34 Speaker B I I think there's a lot about visualization now 04:36 Speaker B and manifestation and that sort of world which there's 04:39 Speaker B probably speaks a lot, you know, a lot of truth to my situation 04:42 Speaker B but I didn't know about that back then 04:44 Speaker B I was just writing in my journal like saying 04:47 Speaker B well when I you know I am now the social media manager for Steven Bartlett 04:50 Speaker B you know I hadn't even had my first interview 04:52 Speaker B but I was like so mentally there 04:55 Speaker B and so the I guess the visualization turned into action 04:59 Speaker B where I found everyone who was possibly close to Steven Bartlett 05:03 Speaker B I messaged them on LinkedIn 05:05 Speaker B I messaged them again on LinkedIn 05:06 Speaker B I found them on Instagram 05:07 Speaker B I was so annoyingly persistent 05:10 Speaker B that they kind of 05:12 Speaker B one couldn't ignore me 05:14 Speaker B And um 05:16 Speaker B I I also I guess in some ways made their job easier 05:18 Speaker B because I'd been building or as now known as a personal brand 05:22 Speaker B back then was very much just my my portfolio to attract freelance clients 05:26 Speaker B So I had a lot of evidence built up in my favor 05:29 Speaker B So I didn't need to do too much persuasion because 05:33 Speaker B they kind of could look at my Instagram and go, oh, she knows social media 05:36 Speaker B She talks about it, she educates about it 05:38 Speaker B because I was using that as my lead magnet to generate freelance clients 05:40 Speaker B So I think there's two parts of that why I was hired 05:43 Speaker B is one I was aggressively persistent 05:45 Speaker B and it's something I talk about when I I speak with a lot of university students 05:47 Speaker B and grads and like that sort of world 05:49 Speaker B and I say like that one email is going to get lost in the thousands 05:52 Speaker B like send 10 emails 05:53 Speaker B but go above and beyond, do something different, turn up, send something 05:56 Speaker B like just do something to stand out 05:57 Speaker B And so I always understood that principle and then I guess the other part of it was 06:01 Speaker B I I had the digital evidence sitting there 06:04 Speaker B So I didn't really have to do too much selling 06:08 Speaker B it already had done the selling for me 06:10 Speaker B you know, through I guess what is my personal brand now 06:12 Speaker A There's so much we could all learn from that 06:15 Speaker A And 06:16 Speaker A I mean that that persistence because I think a lot of people feel like they fear being annoying or whatever 06:20 Speaker A So I think there's a lot that can inspire us there 06:24 Speaker A So Diary of a CEO has now gone on to be one of the biggest podcasts in the world 06:29 Speaker B The second 06:30 Speaker A The second biggest 06:32 Speaker A And you were literally there from pretty much the beginning 06:36 Speaker A What can you share with the audience today about why, because so many people have podcasts 06:42 Speaker A Like what is it that you did differently that helped that become the brand that it is today? 06:48 Speaker B For us it was never a podcast, for us it was always going to be the biggest show in the world 06:51 Speaker B And I think to my point as I was kind of speaking to earlier 06:54 Speaker B I in the same way I knew that that role was going to be mine 06:58 Speaker B we never had a shadow of doubt in our mind that this show, which we always treated as a show 07:02 Speaker B which I can get on to 07:04 Speaker B was was always going to be the biggest because we were going to obsess over it more than any other team in the world could ever 07:10 Speaker B We were going to sweat the smallest of details to the point where other people would look at us and think we were completely insane 07:15 Speaker B And I think that's something you can take in any industry, in anywhere you work 07:20 Speaker B If if you are going to put in more reps than anyone else 07:24 Speaker B the compounding effect of that is probably that you're going to come out near the top as long as you don't quit 07:28 Speaker B You know 07:29 Speaker B because what actually happens isn't that people are more talented 07:31 Speaker B or people just have that like spark or whatever 07:34 Speaker B it's actually that they just put in the reps more and more and more than anybody else 07:37 Speaker B But no one sees that, right 07:38 Speaker B So like everyone looks at the Diary of a CEO now and they see it's this big show 07:42 Speaker B They want to replicate the trailers 07:45 Speaker B They want to have the success and the the scale and the achievements that they've they've now had 07:49 Speaker B But they don't see those sort of first three years, or first two years where barely anyone was listening 07:54 Speaker B Like really, truly barely anyone was listening 07:57 Speaker A Ross was 07:58 Speaker B That over 07:59 Speaker A He was 08:00 Speaker B That that was our concentrated audience 08:02 Speaker A Yeah 08:03 Speaker B Manchester and worked in the world was our sweet spot 08:07 Speaker B Um and it's funny because I think it's that classic iceberg model, isn't it 08:10 Speaker B where everyone sees that tip and they want to replicate the tip and they're obsessed with replicating the tip 08:14 Speaker B I mean it's amazing since I've left how many people are like, can you come and do what you did at the Diary of a CEO 08:18 Speaker B and copy and paste it onto ours 08:20 Speaker B I was like, unfortunately it's never going to work like that 08:22 Speaker B because we had those two years of about also a full-time team at that point of about seven of us 08:26 Speaker B working just on this one show 08:28 Speaker B So you know that scale again, it's very hard to replicate 08:30 Speaker B when I go and work with podcasts who only have the host and maybe a freelance producer 08:34 Speaker B it's a very different setup 08:36 Speaker B And I we we just worked harder than anybody else 08:40 Speaker B We said like we will become the number one show in the world 08:44 Speaker B and to do that, we worked, you know, we had breakfast, lunch and dinner together every day for two years 08:48 Speaker B Most of everything else in my life was sacrificed 08:52 Speaker B in order to get to the show to number one 08:54 Speaker B So it was never, I guess, a surprise to us when we would hit these milestones 08:58 Speaker B and everyone would like go crazy externally and we were like, yeah, we we kind of know 09:01 Speaker B that's where we're heading 09:02 Speaker B It's inevitable for us 09:04 Speaker B that that success was coming 09:06 Speaker B But it's founded on a load of sort of first principles which 09:10 Speaker B I guess we can maybe get into 09:13 Speaker B I've you've probably had people talk about the 1% mindset 09:16 Speaker B or this like compounding success or sweating the small stuff 09:19 Speaker B Like we 09:21 Speaker B none of us had also for context, none of us had ever worked in podcasting before 09:26 Speaker B None of us had really ever worked in media 09:29 Speaker B So it's not like we were taking sort of shared knowledge, we were just applying first principles 09:33 Speaker B of how to gain people's attention through this new medium of this new podcast which was exploding 09:39 Speaker B And so 09:41 Speaker B things like 09:43 Speaker B filming the thing 09:46 Speaker B for us was so obvious 09:48 Speaker B Of course you would film the podcast because how on earth are you ever going to get in front of people who are consuming video content every day 09:53 Speaker B if you don't get into their feeds 09:55 Speaker B So for us it it was things like that where, you know, people now in 2025 09:59 Speaker B are still like, oh, maybe we should film our podcast 10:01 Speaker B It's like for us that was so 10:03 Speaker B it was so inevitable because we just based ourselves on 10:05 Speaker B based our thinking on first principles which was views equals filming 10:10 Speaker B And it, you know, when you get down to the basics, it sounds so simple 10:13 Speaker B but so many people I guess overlook the the first principles 10:17 Speaker B in order to do what they think is right 10:20 Speaker B because everyone said podcast is an audio first platform 10:23 Speaker B You've got to just make it audio, audio, audio 10:25 Speaker B And we were like, no one's like discovering audio 10:28 Speaker B Everyone's discovering video every day 10:31 Speaker B So we're going to transfer that into the formats that people are consuming 10:34 Speaker B So I guess it was that sort of thinking 10:36 Speaker B that allowed us to sort of stay ahead 10:37 Speaker A What was the cost you spoke there about sacrifice 10:40 Speaker A And I know a lot of business owners struggle internally to know 10:45 Speaker A you know 10:46 Speaker A I think you use the word that obsess 10:47 Speaker B Yeah 10:48 Speaker A Like they have these goals and dreams, they want to be the number one, they want to be the best 10:53 Speaker A but they're worried then about the sacrifice 10:55 Speaker A and we hear a lot about work life balance 10:58 Speaker A What was the reality for you 11:00 Speaker A and what would you say if people are unsure how hard to work or how obsessed 11:06 Speaker A What would you your advice be 11:07 Speaker A based on your experience 11:09 Speaker B I've had the incredible honor, privilege of working alongside people like Steven himself 11:15 Speaker B but also all the CEOs we brought onto the podcast and I've worked alongside sort of CEOs 11:20 Speaker B and Spotify and all these incredible successful people, Richard Branson, blah, blah, blah 11:25 Speaker B And um there's not one of them who would ever, ever, ever tell you work life balance is a real thing 11:31 Speaker B It's it's simply not 11:32 Speaker B If you want to be one of those people 11:36 Speaker B and I'll make it really clear 11:37 Speaker B You can absolutely have work life balance if you want to continue living a balanced life 11:41 Speaker B If you want to become the top 1%, the best in the world at what you do 11:47 Speaker B there is not one person, I promise you no matter what any guru or course person is going to sell you 11:52 Speaker B at the very top who is living a work life balanced kind of scenario 11:57 Speaker B It just doesn't exist 11:59 Speaker B And I've seen it, I've seen it with 12:02 Speaker B people who have all different, you know, all different stages of their life 12:07 Speaker B uh much older, much younger, but they're all the absolute top 1% at what they do 12:11 Speaker B and all of them will bat away this idea of work life balance because to get there 12:16 Speaker B to become the 1%, you must, must, must sacrifice 12:20 Speaker B And I always say that like we live our life in these different chapters and these different phases 12:25 Speaker B and each chapter comes with like different levels of sacrifice 12:28 Speaker B You know, I was in a very privileged position where I had no responsibilities 12:33 Speaker B really, like I was the only responsibility I had in my life was myself 12:36 Speaker B And so I could be extremely selfish in my behaviors and go all in 12:40 Speaker B and be completely obsessed and all consumed by my work 12:43 Speaker B And I saw, you know, people at different stages of their lives who had to sort of retract a little bit and then give back a little bit 12:49 Speaker B and I think it's a constant give and take 12:52 Speaker B and rather than thinking about work life balance, which I've always found incredibly jarring because it suggests that work is one thing 12:59 Speaker B and the entire rest of your life is another thing and that you have to weigh them up against each other 13:03 Speaker B For me, work is one element of my life rather than weighing them up against each other 13:07 Speaker B I also have relationships, I also have family, I also have hobbies and things that bring me joy 13:11 Speaker B And for me it's a case of looking at all of those different buckets within my life and looking at how I'm spreading and filling those buckets at any one time 13:17 Speaker B And if I feel really out of kilter at any one point, I'm going, okay 13:20 Speaker B which bucket needs topping up right now, you know 13:22 Speaker B It's a case of looking at it more holistically 13:26 Speaker B and really going, okay, I've really for the last few years, and which is the truth 13:32 Speaker B you know, been very selfish in my relationships 13:35 Speaker B And so since leaving the Diary of a CEO, I've absolutely prioritized that area 13:40 Speaker B I prioritized that space because I was neglecting it for a long time 13:42 Speaker B And I do think it comes to a point where you have to, you know, where the life tells you in one way or another 13:46 Speaker B it will trip you up somehow and go, you need to reset your buckets 13:48 Speaker B Like I do believe that's the case 13:49 Speaker A I love what you said because I I speak a lot about it being seasons 13:51 Speaker A and I think it's knowing, having the self-awareness to know what season am I in right now 13:55 Speaker A I also spoke to Dr. Arie that I know was a guest who was on Diary of a CEO 13:59 Speaker A and I always remember him saying, we don't have to call it sacrifice, it's just a choice 14:03 Speaker A Like understanding every choice you make has an upside and a downside and as long as you're clear and comfortable with that 14:08 Speaker A You don't have to call it sacrifice 14:10 Speaker A because it comes with that connotation, oh, I'm saying yes to this, but I'm saying no to my friends 14:14 Speaker A Well, no, you're just choosing this, you're saying yes to this and then there will also be opportunities to say yes to friends 14:18 Speaker A maybe in another season and things like that 14:20 Speaker A And I think that can be useful when you're weighing it up in your mind 14:22 Speaker A So all those years and that that, you know, real intense workload working closely with Steven, the team, the guests that you brought on and so on 14:28 Speaker A I know this must be like hard question to answer 14:31 Speaker A but is there one like key lesson or something that you took from that that's now a real guiding force as you move forward 14:38 Speaker A Like one of the main things that stands out 14:41 Speaker B Can I be annoying and say two 14:43 Speaker A We'd love you to 14:44 Speaker A Like you say 10, we just want to get as much as we can, Grace 14:47 Speaker B Okay, there's there's three principles that I would say are the things that I've really 14:52 Speaker B when I look at what I've taken from my time there that I'm now using every single day in everything I'm doing 14:56 Speaker B So for context, I've left with like not really a clear, I guess, route or path of exactly where I want to go 15:00 Speaker B I've given myself this grace period to sort of figure it out 15:03 Speaker B Um 15:04 Speaker B and but there are principles that I've sort of extracted and taken 15:07 Speaker B The first one being failure is feedback 15:09 Speaker B So for us, failure at Diary of a CEO was probably one of the most critical principles that allowed us to stay as far ahead of the competition as we did 15:13 Speaker B We were so willing and in fact eager to fail as often as we possibly could 15:17 Speaker B And I know a lot of companies and organizations say that 15:20 Speaker B They're like, we like failure 15:22 Speaker B and then behind the scenes they're like, if they fail, they're getting fired 15:24 Speaker B You know 15:25 Speaker B For us it was like failure was actually genuinely within our infrastructure encouraged 15:30 Speaker B to the point where we had, they have, we had a head of failure 15:34 Speaker B and her entire job was to orchestrate as many experiments as possible to encourage the learning as quickly as we possibly could 15:40 Speaker B Because our theory was we're going to have to fail to find the right thing 15:43 Speaker B If we can fail as quickly as possible, we're going to get to the answer before anyone else does 15:47 Speaker B So failure for us was celebrated, we were incentivized to fail 15:51 Speaker B And I think that mindset is so rare 15:54 Speaker B I think people, and I've seen it now since I've left, I've worked in sort of different organizations 15:59 Speaker B whether workshop and consultancy or whatever 16:01 Speaker B and they're like, yeah, yeah, we encourage failure 16:03 Speaker B And then it's like, well, how are you incentivizing it 16:05 Speaker B What's the support system so people feel actually encouraged to fail or safe to fail 16:09 Speaker B An environment where they actually feel like if they fail, the world's not going to, you know, burn in front of them 16:13 Speaker B and they're not going to lose their jobs 16:14 Speaker B So for us, we were just looking every single day for the opportunity to experiment and try something 16:18 Speaker B And it did not matter if that experiment resulted in success or failure 16:22 Speaker B because for us it was just one step closer to the right answer 16:26 Speaker B So we we celebrated the input rather than the output 16:28 Speaker B which I think is a a mindset I play with every single day 16:31 Speaker B I have zero fear, zero fear about failure 16:34 Speaker B because for me it's either a learning or a success 16:36 Speaker B And I think that is fundamentally one of the best lessons I could have ever learned 16:40 Speaker B The second one is this idea of 1% which I spoke to earlier 16:44 Speaker B The 1% mindset is 16:46 Speaker B I'm sure you've all come across it in different schools, different things to different people 16:51 Speaker B different people write about it in different ways 16:52 Speaker B Essentially the idea that every single day you're looking at edging 1% closer to your goal 16:56 Speaker B So rather than trying to do 100% overnight, it's what's the one thing I can do tomorrow 17:00 Speaker B that's going to edge me closer to my goal 17:02 Speaker B Because ultimately if you look back in a year 17:05 Speaker B you've moved X number of percentage along the along the way 17:09 Speaker B and it's not as scary or it's not as daunting 17:11 Speaker B It's like what's the what's the one little thing that I can change or alter or control today 17:15 Speaker B that's going to edge me closer to my end goal 17:19 Speaker B And I guess that leads into the third principle which is like sweat the small stuff 17:22 Speaker B Most people will tell you not to 17:24 Speaker B Most people say don't bother, don't sweat the small stuff 17:27 Speaker B don't worry about it, just go, you know, go big 17:29 Speaker B just like forget about it, it's fine, it will all figure itself out 17:31 Speaker B We were obsessed, like you would absolutely think we were insane 17:34 Speaker B if I were to go into all the little things we obsessed over 17:37 Speaker B We sweat the small stuff more than anybody else 17:39 Speaker A Like the temperature in the room 17:40 Speaker B The temperature in the room 17:41 Speaker A The music that the guests 17:42 Speaker B We would research the music that the guest would be most comfortable and relaxed to 17:48 Speaker B that they used when they wanted to calm down or relax 17:51 Speaker B and we'd play that when they entered the room 17:54 Speaker B so that they were in the mindset to share more information 17:58 Speaker B to feel comfortable more quickly 18:00 Speaker B so we didn't have to do too much warm up 18:02 Speaker A How did you see 18:03 Speaker B We had a whole research department 18:04 Speaker A I tried to find it for you 18:06 Speaker A I was like 18:07 Speaker A I'll forget it already 18:08 Speaker B I keep some some things close to my chest 18:10 Speaker A This episode is sponsored by Laura Robson and Back Pocket Office 18:11 Speaker A Now let me tell you about this one 18:14 Speaker A Laura is somebody you need in your life 18:18 Speaker A I have got her in my life and all I can say about her is I don't know how I'd live without her 18:23 Speaker A And it's true 18:24 Speaker A If you're anything like me 18:27 Speaker A you will hate tech 18:29 Speaker A You'll be great at launching and creating the marketing material and delivering on the actual product that you're selling 18:34 Speaker A But when it comes to the back end, making sure it's all automated and it all works 18:38 Speaker A I just can't be bothered 18:40 Speaker A And if you're the same, Laura is the solution 18:45 Speaker A Laura is a systems strategist 18:48 Speaker A and she's also a certified launch and funnel specialist 18:54 Speaker A And if you are a service provider, if you're a coach, consultant, any kind of online business that provides some kind of online service 19:00 Speaker A then Laura is there to help sort out all your funnels and systems for you 19:05 Speaker A With over 14 years experience, she's somebody who's going to get you solutions quick 19:10 Speaker A She's easy to speak to, very approachable 19:14 Speaker A and just really friendly and nice, basically 19:17 Speaker A So if you are ready to get your systems and your funnels all sorted for you and work with one of the best in the business 19:24 Speaker A go check out backpocketoffice.co.uk and connect with Laura on socials 19:30 Speaker A The links are literally right below this episode in the show notes 19:35 Speaker A Go click it and I mean this, go and do it now 19:39 Speaker A you will not regret it 19:41 Speaker B I think, you know, we had a whole research department 19:43 Speaker B and they were phenomenal, they do research calls in the same way you would if you were going on a Piers Morgan interview 19:46 Speaker B You know, they would interview the mom, the dad, the sister, the girlfriend, the brother, they would do all these research calls before they'd find out all of the information that the person would sit in the chair and be like, how did you find that out about me 19:55 Speaker B Like almost a bit terrified 19:58 Speaker B Um and you know, Steve would present them with photos and it it just created this 20:02 Speaker B depth of conversation that nobody could compete with 20:06 Speaker B But we did so, you know, we created 20:09 Speaker B we had this whole vehicle made with Mercedes that was the Diary of a CEO vehicle 20:15 Speaker B that we would pick up our guests in 20:17 Speaker B very specifically so the experience started 20:20 Speaker B we were controlling all of the sort of different environmental factors from the minute they were picked up wherever they were picked up from 20:25 Speaker B And there were messages in there, there were gifts in there, you know, we we controlled as much as we possibly could 20:30 Speaker B from the minute they were in our in our care to the minute they left 20:34 Speaker B And I mean, we controlled the CO2 levels in the room 20:36 Speaker B Like I you would think we were crazy 20:38 Speaker B Like you would think we were crazy 20:40 Speaker A But that's how you get your guests to cry, right 20:42 Speaker A That's what you 20:43 Speaker A This is we've found the secret now 20:45 Speaker A how they break the toughest people 20:48 Speaker A But I mean people would look at what you were doing there, Grace, and they'd be like, that's the dream 20:53 Speaker A Like what an amazing life, job and and position you're in 20:57 Speaker A I imagine then coming into the decision to leave is quite a big decision 21:03 Speaker A How did you come to that decision 21:06 Speaker B It's very hard spending every single day around incredible, creative entrepreneurs 21:12 Speaker B who are building the most incredible, exciting tech, service 21:17 Speaker B consumer product and not get the edge to want to do it yourself 21:20 Speaker B I I remember I was in a taxi a few years ago and getting got chatting with him 21:25 Speaker B and they would always, oh, you work for the Diary of a CEO 21:27 Speaker B you'd have a good conversation 21:29 Speaker B And um he was like, well, surely you're going to go and do your own thing 21:31 Speaker B And I was like, what do you mean, of course I'm not going to, like I'm where would I possibly go 21:35 Speaker B This is the best place in the entire world 21:37 Speaker B How could I go and ever leave and do it 21:40 Speaker B I have I don't want to be an entrepreneur 21:41 Speaker B I've seen how hard it is, I'm not interested in that 21:43 Speaker B I want to be behind the scenes, I want to be part of the team 21:47 Speaker B And then something's and then that switch happens and you go, oh, actually I do think I want to be the guy who the girl who builds something 21:53 Speaker B and I do want to create something for myself 21:56 Speaker B And I thought I've been blessed with this crazy opportunity where I've been able to absorb 22:02 Speaker B either via osmosis or via learning or whatever it was 22:06 Speaker B insight, knowledge, wisdom, experience that, you know, most people pay a lot of money to be exposed to 22:12 Speaker B And I thought it'd be a real shame if I didn't sort of act on that 22:15 Speaker B At the same time, I'd been encouraged within work directly by Steve to build my personal brand 22:21 Speaker B Um and essentially what happened is my 22:25 Speaker B I I mean my last week at work, I did I we work in the office five days a week 22:30 Speaker B I was in every single day but I also delivered four talks in person that week 22:34 Speaker B So I was doing two jobs, I was doing I was living two lives 22:38 Speaker B and I I saw this opportunity where the speaking, the content, the creative, the personal brand had given me this 22:44 Speaker B this opportunity to go and have this grace period and this grace, pardon the pun, to figure it out 22:50 Speaker B And um 22:52 Speaker B I was also quite I had we had really honest conversations at work 22:56 Speaker B which I'm very grateful for 22:57 Speaker B and they said like, I think it's I think you've got to go for it 23:00 Speaker B Like you've got to go and seize this opportunity 23:02 Speaker B And they're like, we'll always be here 23:04 Speaker B I'm very much still involved, like you can't once you're part of that cult 23:07 Speaker B you can't you can't get away 23:09 Speaker B Um 23:10 Speaker B but it was I think it's a really interesting time for like employee brands, personal brands 23:16 Speaker B Um and I think I almost am a case study for what we're starting to see happen within businesses 23:20 Speaker B now where employee brands are encouraged to be built 23:25 Speaker B but the the downside to that is the likelihood is they're, you know, if they're only good at it 23:29 Speaker B their brand will get so big that they will probably leave 23:31 Speaker B But the reality is is your A players, your best people are probably going to leave anyway 23:36 Speaker B So you might as well get them on board and allow them to become an ambassador for your brand during that time that you do have them 23:41 Speaker B So it's it's a really interesting time 23:43 Speaker A Let's talk about being a creator entrepreneur and this kind of space that you're now operating in 23:47 Speaker A People are not sure what that actually is 23:49 Speaker A Do you want to just tell people what that is and kind of what the main things are that you're doing now 23:53 Speaker B Yeah 23:54 Speaker B So 23:55 Speaker B um 23:56 Speaker B I guess this term creator entrepreneur is quite new because 24:00 Speaker B what we've seen for the last 10 years within the creator economy is this emergence of the influencer 24:07 Speaker B And the influencer was someone who shared content in exchange for uh monetization, right 24:13 Speaker B So they would share links, brand deals, affiliate 24:16 Speaker B all of that sort of thing 24:18 Speaker B Very transactional 24:20 Speaker B They'd be used essentially to reach the audience that they'd created through their content 24:25 Speaker B And that was how they monetized 24:26 Speaker B So this this influencer blew up and everybody sort of left their jobs to become an influencer 24:31 Speaker B And it's now there was a stat that came out with the IAB this week last week that one in three people in the UK are now consider themselves like a creator or an influencer 24:39 Speaker B which is just this huge crazy phenomenon 24:42 Speaker B And what we've seen in that sort of industry in that space is 24:47 Speaker B people become very tired of being influenced 24:53 Speaker B So the demand for influencers in this it's just not the same as what it used to be 24:57 Speaker B So whether you've built an audience of 100,000, a million, 10 million, the saturation within that space 25:03 Speaker B and the fatigue audience are feeling towards influencers mean that they're 25:07 Speaker B the demand is shifting 25:11 Speaker B And what we're seeing in this shift is the emergence of the creator entrepreneur 25:16 Speaker B So what's the difference between an influencer and a creator entrepreneur 25:20 Speaker B An influencer, as I said, is very transactional 25:22 Speaker B So it's a case of, hi, we would like you to sell X number of products, can you post two pieces of content 25:29 Speaker B Yes, deal done 25:30 Speaker B It's very superficial, it's very transactional 25:33 Speaker B and it serves a means to an end 25:35 Speaker B So the content is designed to sale to sell or to convert something 25:39 Speaker B The idea of a creator entrepreneur is that 25:44 Speaker B yes, they might still 25:46 Speaker B sorry 25:47 Speaker B they might still work with brand partners 25:50 Speaker B but it's in a completely different capacity 25:52 Speaker B So we're seeing the likes of Alex Earl having, which is who's one of the biggest creators in one of the biggest influencers or creators in the US 25:59 Speaker B one of the biggest people on TikTok, um being given equity within Poppy 26:03 Speaker B which then went on to sell for two billion to Pepsi last year 26:07 Speaker B We're seeing Anna Archer, who's a running influencer from London, being given equity in Runner, the app 26:13 Speaker B which then went on to be acquired by Strava this year 26:16 Speaker B And it's it's much more about embedding the creators into long-term brand partnerships 26:21 Speaker B where they have equity and real stakes within a business because the business actually understands that that influence can push the needle 26:27 Speaker B far greater or move the needle far more than a transactional link in their stories or a sale 26:32 Speaker B They actually have the power to influence at scale the ultimate sale price of the business 26:37 Speaker B if you bring them on board, bring them behind the scenes and allow them to uh dictate and communicate how how the brand dictates itself on social media, for example 26:43 Speaker B So 26:44 Speaker B we're seeing a massive shift of how influencer marketing is working 26:48 Speaker B And in that same way, these influencers who previously were getting all these brand deals through when it was, you know, the heyday of influencer marketing 26:55 Speaker B are also realizing that they've built an audience that they can monetize themselves without needing the third party of a brand or a business 27:02 Speaker B So they're going, okay, I've built this audience who are very engaged with me 27:07 Speaker B and they're very interested in me 27:10 Speaker B What can I build as a product or a business myself that I can sell directly to my audience 27:15 Speaker B that doesn't need to be sponsored by a third party 27:18 Speaker B They have control back 27:20 Speaker B So that's the difference between I guess an influencer and a creator entrepreneur 27:25 Speaker B A creator entrepreneur is someone who is building audience first or they have built audience first and they're creating product second to sell to the audience they've created 27:32 Speaker B It's why we're seeing this absolute boom in creator led businesses and celebrity led brands 27:36 Speaker B because what they've done for the last few years or what they're doing is building an incredibly dedicated, high trust, high loyalty, engaged audience 27:45 Speaker B and then now figuring what the product fit is going to be to sell to them 27:50 Speaker B So previously we would have seen businesses be built that it would be product first, audience second 27:55 Speaker B I'm building audience first, whilst I figure out what the product is 27:59 Speaker B I'm going to sell to my audience 28:01 Speaker B So I'm building audience on Instagram, LinkedIn and more recently YouTube 28:05 Speaker B which I absolutely am obsessed with 28:09 Speaker B And for me it's build the audience first and let the product follow 28:13 Speaker A Why have you chosen to go down the YouTube route 28:15 Speaker A I know you've recently started a vlog and it's like every single week 28:18 Speaker A And they're quite long, right 28:20 Speaker A They're like 40 odd minutes 28:21 Speaker A an hour long 28:22 Speaker B My poor editor 28:23 Speaker A So it's a lot 28:24 Speaker B Yeah 28:24 Speaker A right 28:25 Speaker A So why are you choosing to invest in YouTube 28:29 Speaker A And again, what's some of the tips you'd give us 28:33 Speaker B Yeah 28:34 Speaker B I guess, so look, I have a slight bias 28:36 Speaker B because we built the Diary of a CEO up on YouTube 28:40 Speaker B It was our primary platform 28:42 Speaker B And we did that for two reasons 28:45 Speaker B One, in the podcasting world, YouTube has discoverability, right 28:50 Speaker B So within podcasting until very recently, none of the platforms have been set up for discoverability 28:55 Speaker B So if you're a new podcast 28:58 Speaker B and you've set yourself up on the audio apps 29:01 Speaker B there's very little chance that you're going to be seen unless someone in your WhatsApp group sends you the link to it 29:05 Speaker B There's very little discoverability 29:08 Speaker B Whereas on YouTube, the algorithm will put your content in front of new people in the same way as the other social media apps do 29:14 Speaker B So that's why it was always a priority for us 29:16 Speaker B The second reason it was because of the data it provides 29:19 Speaker B There is no other platform, there's no other platform that provides the amount of data YouTube does 29:24 Speaker B You get pages and pages and pages of insights and analytics and demographics and data 29:31 Speaker B And data is power, right 29:32 Speaker B The more information you have, the more personalized the experience can be for the audience 29:36 Speaker B And so we were completely obsessed with gathering as much data as we possibly could 29:42 Speaker B And so for us, that's why YouTube was always the priority in the early days 29:45 Speaker B What we didn't quite realize 29:48 Speaker B was the value of a subscriber on YouTube versus the value of a follower on another social media app 29:52 Speaker B like a short form social media app 29:55 Speaker B And so if you think about it 29:57 Speaker B if someone hits subscribe on your YouTube, they may have watched 10, 20 minutes of your content 30:02 Speaker B If someone hits follow on Instagram, they may have watched three seconds 30:06 Speaker B So they've already spent 10 to 20 minutes with you 30:09 Speaker B which you may never get from a follower on a short form social media app 30:13 Speaker B So the intensity, the loyalty, the engagement that comes from just one subscriber on YouTube 30:19 Speaker B I think, and this is just my sort of analysis from from building it myself recently 30:23 Speaker B I think it's worth about 1,000 subscribers or followers on another platform 30:27 Speaker B The value and I I've been totally blown away 30:30 Speaker B and it's actually made me, yes, I completely understand what we built with the Diary of a CEO 30:34 Speaker B We built it up to 12 million before I left 30:37 Speaker B And I mean, the way they would convert when we would bring anything to like a real life tour around 30:40 Speaker B or a product, we couldn't keep anything on the shelves for more than five minutes 30:42 Speaker B The the loyalty was just incredible 30:44 Speaker B So I did see that there 30:46 Speaker B and you know when they turn 30:47 Speaker B when they turned up to events, it was it was so powerful 30:50 Speaker B and it was so moving 30:52 Speaker B and it was so the parasocial relationship was very, very strong 30:57 Speaker B But when I've what I've experienced for myself is is the same 31:01 Speaker B and I think that's what's really surprised me because 31:05 Speaker B it took a really long time for us to build up that 12 million, but I've only I've been going for a few weeks 31:12 Speaker B and I'm I don't know, it was 7,000 subscribers on YouTube 31:16 Speaker B And the the intensity of a subscriber on YouTube, I've already already seen to be worth so much more 31:22 Speaker B than the audience I build up on Instagram 31:26 Speaker B So for me now it's about going all in and it's actually made me completely reframe 31:31 Speaker B how I approach the platform with uh brands I consult for 31:36 Speaker B And for me it's like, yeah, you may only have a much smaller audience on YouTube 31:42 Speaker B but if they click subscribe, they are in 31:47 Speaker B They're your bottom of funnel clients, bottom of funnel customers 31:51 Speaker B And I would be looking at creating a series for every brand I work with going forward on YouTube 31:57 Speaker B because I think one, the feedback you get, the data is phenomenal 32:00 Speaker B But imagine like I so I put this vlog up 32:02 Speaker B I've made myself accountable for 52 weeks 32:05 Speaker B I'm putting a vlog up every Friday 32:08 Speaker B Um I have never in my life, and I've been going for five years on my own personal social channels 32:14 Speaker B had people message me going at 8:01 on Friday 32:18 Speaker B Where's the vlog, where's the vlog, where's the vlog 32:20 Speaker B And I'm like, whoa, guys 32:22 Speaker B two secs 32:23 Speaker A Like it's just uploaded 32:24 Speaker B It's gone 32:25 Speaker A now 32:26 Speaker B It's gone 32:27 Speaker B Flash in the pan 32:28 Speaker B These things always happen 32:30 Speaker B Um and for the just on that note, like I would say if you're a brand owner, you don't always have to jump on every single trend that comes your way 32:36 Speaker B Like please don't 32:37 Speaker B Please, it's people see straight through it 32:39 Speaker B And really you should only be leaning into trends if they feel very aligned with the with your audience and where you want to go 32:43 Speaker A make sure you make it key, isn't it 32:44 Speaker A If you're just jumping on everything, people you lose trust, right 32:46 Speaker B And I think 32:48 Speaker B so yeah, so with Instagram, for example, right now, what we're seeing is like a follower count matters less than ever before 32:54 Speaker B So the probably the last metric you should be measuring as a as a means of a KPI or success is your follower account 32:59 Speaker B Because 33:01 Speaker B what we're seeing with the likes of for you pages on TikTok or your explore page on Instagram 33:06 Speaker B where most people are spending their time 33:08 Speaker B it's not dictated by follower account 33:11 Speaker B So it actually doesn't matter if you've got zero followers or a million followers 33:15 Speaker B you can go viral tomorrow 33:17 Speaker B So follower account has become less meaningful than ever before 33:21 Speaker B It's why influencers are also sort of dying on this hill 33:26 Speaker B in some to some degree 33:28 Speaker B not the not the market 33:30 Speaker B not the whole industry for sure 33:32 Speaker B but the the way we've worked with influencers in the past because a follower account did used to dictate 33:39 Speaker B the potential ROI of the campaign 33:43 Speaker B Whereas now, a follower account is almost futile 33:48 Speaker B So I would say when it comes to Instagram 33:51 Speaker B yes, there are going to be waves of algorithm changes 33:55 Speaker B and we're definitely going through one now 33:57 Speaker B where engagement is at an all-time low 34:00 Speaker B You've got to get super, super clear on why you're what you're doing on that platform 34:05 Speaker B and who you're trying to speak to 34:08 Speaker B And then set your KPIs and measurements of success up via that goal 34:13 Speaker B Because ultimately, if you're trying to convert, I don't know 34:18 Speaker B three new clients a month or whatever it is 34:20 Speaker B three new clients a quarter 34:22 Speaker B you need three people 34:23 Speaker B You don't need 500,000 people viewing a reels 34:26 Speaker B You don't need 400,000 people following you 34:30 Speaker B You need to reach those right three people 34:33 Speaker B So I would be obsessing over how to get in front of that audience 34:38 Speaker B And it's also worth saying like Instagram might not be your best platform to do that 34:43 Speaker B Instagram is one of many free social media marketing tools that we can take advantage of 34:48 Speaker B There are still, do you know the the number one still most used social media app 34:50 Speaker B Facebook 34:53 Speaker B So we're very quick to sort of jump on the platforms that everyone says we need to be on 34:58 Speaker B We need to be on TikTok, we need to be on Instagram 35:00 Speaker B All this new platforms emerging, we need to be the first people on there 35:04 Speaker B Please be dictated by your audience 35:07 Speaker B not by like your desires for where you want to show up 35:11 Speaker B And your goals 35:12 Speaker B So I'm I'm very aware that lots of people I'm working with, they're all really struggling with engagement right now 35:18 Speaker B And yes, I could give you a formula for like a viral reel 35:20 Speaker B It's not going to serve you 35:22 Speaker B because the reality is virality is going to bring a load of eyeballs in 35:26 Speaker B and probably none of them are going to be relevant for your end goal 35:30 Speaker B which is a conversion to a paying consumer 35:33 Speaker B So I think it's really important that we just get really clear on what we're trying to achieve on this platform 35:39 Speaker B as a marketing tool 35:41 Speaker B Let's remember 35:42 Speaker B We always drop the marketing part of social media 35:44 Speaker B We're like, oh, we're on social media 35:46 Speaker B It's social media marketing 35:48 Speaker B It is a marketing platform whether we like it or not 35:51 Speaker B we're being sold to the minute we go on these apps 35:54 Speaker B So you've got to get really clear on who you're marketing to and why you're marketing to them 35:59 Speaker B and set up your, please set up your metrics of measurement based on that 36:06 Speaker B Because anything like a follower or a like, they're just vanity metrics 36:10 Speaker B They're just serving the ego 36:12 Speaker B They're not serving the business 36:13 Speaker B I can assure you 36:15 Speaker A Why have you chosen to go down the YouTube route 36:17 Speaker A I know you've recently started a vlog and it's like every single week 36:20 Speaker A And they're quite long, right 36:22 Speaker A They're like 40 odd minutes 36:23 Speaker A an hour long 36:24 Speaker B My poor editor 36:25 Speaker A So it's a lot 36:26 Speaker B Yeah 36:26 Speaker A right 36:27 Speaker A So why are you choosing to invest in YouTube 36:31 Speaker A And again, what's some of the tips you'd give us 36:35 Speaker B Yeah 36:36 Speaker B I guess, so look, I have a slight bias 36:38 Speaker B because we built the Diary of a CEO up on YouTube 36:42 Speaker B It was our primary platform 36:44 Speaker B And we did that for two reasons 36:47 Speaker B One, in the podcasting world, YouTube has discoverability, right 36:52 Speaker B So within podcasting until very recently, none of the platforms have been set up for discoverability 36:57 Speaker B So if you're a new podcast 37:00 Speaker B and you've set yourself up on the audio apps 37:03 Speaker B there's very little chance that you're going to be seen unless someone in your WhatsApp group sends you the link to it 37:07 Speaker B There's very little discoverability 37:10 Speaker B Whereas on YouTube, the algorithm will put your content in front of new people in the same way as the other social media apps do 37:16 Speaker B So that's why it was always a priority for us 37:18 Speaker B The second reason it was because of the data it provides 37:21 Speaker B There is no other platform, there's no other platform that provides the amount of data YouTube does 37:26 Speaker B You get pages and pages and pages of insights and analytics and demographics and data 37:33 Speaker B And data is power, right 37:34 Speaker B The more information you have, the more personalized the experience can be for the audience 37:38 Speaker B And so we were completely obsessed with gathering as much data as we possibly could 37:44 Speaker B And so for us, that's why YouTube was always the priority in the early days 37:47 Speaker B What we didn't quite realize 37:50 Speaker B was the value of a subscriber on YouTube versus the value of a follower on another social media app 37:56 Speaker B like a short form social media app 37:59 Speaker B And so if you think about it 38:00 Speaker B if someone hits subscribe on your YouTube, they may have watched 10, 20 minutes of your content 38:06 Speaker B If someone hits follow on Instagram, they may have watched three seconds 38:10 Speaker B So they've already spent 10 to 20 minutes with you 38:13 Speaker B which you may never get from a follower on a short form social media app 38:17 Speaker B So the intensity, the loyalty, the engagement that comes from just one subscriber on YouTube 38:23 Speaker B I think, and this is just my sort of analysis from from building it myself recently 38:27 Speaker B I think it's worth about 1,000 subscribers or followers on another platform 38:31 Speaker B The value 38:32 Speaker B and I I've been totally blown away 38:36 Speaker B and it's actually made me, yes, I completely understand what we built with the Diary of a CEO 38:40 Speaker B We built it up to 12 million before I left 38:43 Speaker B And I mean, the way they would convert when we would bring anything to like a real life tour around 38:49 Speaker B or a product, we couldn't keep anything on the shelves for more than five minutes 38:51 Speaker B The loyalty was just incredible 38:53 Speaker B So I did see that there 38:55 Speaker B and you know when they turn 38:56 Speaker B when they turned up to events, it was it was so powerful 38:59 Speaker B and it was so moving 39:01 Speaker B and it was so the parasocial relationship was very, very strong 39:06 Speaker B But what I've what I've experienced for myself is is the same 39:10 Speaker B and I think that's what's really surprised me because 39:14 Speaker B it took a really long time for us to build up that 12 million, but I've only I've been going for a few weeks 39:20 Speaker B and I'm I don't know, it was 7,000 subscribers on YouTube 39:24 Speaker B And the the intensity of a subscriber on YouTube, I've already already seen to be worth so much more 39:30 Speaker B than the audience I build up on Instagram 39:33 Speaker B So for me now it's about going all in and it's actually made me completely reframe 39:38 Speaker B how I approach the platform with uh brands I consult for 39:42 Speaker B And for me it's like, yeah, you may only have a much smaller audience on YouTube 39:48 Speaker B but if they click subscribe, they are in 39:52 Speaker B They're your bottom of funnel clients, bottom of funnel customers 39:56 Speaker B And I would be looking at creating a series for every brand I work with going forward on YouTube 40:03 Speaker B because I think one, the feedback you get, the data is phenomenal 40:06 Speaker B But imagine like I so I put this vlog up 40:08 Speaker B I've made myself accountable for 52 weeks 40:11 Speaker B I'm putting a vlog up every Friday 40:14 Speaker B I have never in my life, and I've been going for five years on my own personal social channels 40:20 Speaker B had people message me going at 8:01 on Friday 40:24 Speaker B Where's the vlog, where's the vlog, where's the vlog 40:26 Speaker B And I'm like, whoa, guys 40:28 Speaker B two secs 40:29 Speaker A Like it's just uploaded 40:30 Speaker B It's gone 40:31 Speaker A now 40:32 Speaker B It's gone 40:33 Speaker B Flash in the pan 40:34 Speaker B These things always happen 40:36 Speaker B Um and for the just on that note, like I would say if you're a brand owner, you don't always have to jump on every single trend that comes your way 40:42 Speaker B Like please don't 40:43 Speaker B Please, it's people see straight through it 40:45 Speaker B And really you should only be leaning into trends if they feel very aligned with the with your audience and where you want to go 40:49 Speaker A make sure you make it key, isn't it 40:50 Speaker A If you're just jumping on everything, people you lose trust, right 40:52 Speaker B And I think 40:54 Speaker B so yeah, so with Instagram, for example, right now, what we're seeing is like a follower count matters less than ever before 41:00 Speaker B So the probably the last metric you should be measuring as a as a means of a KPI or success is your follower account 41:05 Speaker B Because 41:07 Speaker B what we're seeing with the likes of for you pages on TikTok or your explore page on Instagram 41:12 Speaker B where most people are spending their time 41:14 Speaker B it's not dictated by follower account 41:17 Speaker B So it actually doesn't matter if you've got zero followers or a million followers 41:21 Speaker B you can go viral tomorrow 41:23 Speaker B So follower account has become less meaningful than ever before 41:27 Speaker B It's why influencers are also sort of dying on this hill 41:32 Speaker B in some to some degree 41:34 Speaker B not the not the market 41:36 Speaker B not the whole industry for sure 41:37 Speaker B but the the way we've worked with influencers in the past because a follower account did used to dictate 41:44 Speaker B the potential ROI of the campaign 41:48 Speaker B Whereas now, a follower account is almost futile 41:52 Speaker B So I would say when it comes to Instagram 41:55 Speaker B yes, there are going to be waves of algorithm changes 41:59 Speaker B and we're definitely going through one now 42:01 Speaker B where engagement is at an all-time low 42:04 Speaker B You've got to get super, super clear on why you're what you're doing on that platform 42:09 Speaker B and who you're trying to speak to 42:12 Speaker B And then set your KPIs and measurements of success up via that goal 42:17 Speaker B Because ultimately 42:19 Speaker B if you're trying to convert, I don't know, three new clients a month or whatever it is 42:23 Speaker B three new clients a quarter 42:26 Speaker B you need three people 42:27 Speaker B You don't need 500,000 people viewing a reels 42:30 Speaker B You don't need 400,000 people following you 42:34 Speaker B You need to reach those right three people 42:37 Speaker B So I would be obsessing over how to get in front of that audience 42:41 Speaker B And it's also worth saying like Instagram might not be your best platform to do that 42:46 Speaker B Instagram is one of many free social media marketing tools that we can take advantage of 42:51 Speaker B There are still, do you know the the number one still most used social media app 42:53 Speaker B Facebook 42:56 Speaker B So we're very quick to sort of jump on the platforms that everyone says we need to be on 43:01 Speaker B We need to be on TikTok, we need to be on Instagram 43:03 Speaker B All this new platforms emerging, we need to be the first people on there 43:07 Speaker B Please be dictated by your audience 43:10 Speaker B not by like your desires for where you want to show up 43:13 Speaker B And your goals 43:15 Speaker B So I'm I'm very aware that lots of people I'm working with, they're all really struggling with engagement right now 43:21 Speaker B And yes, I could give you a formula for like a viral reel 43:23 Speaker B It's not going to serve you 43:25 Speaker B because the reality is virality is going to bring a load of eyeballs in 43:29 Speaker B and probably none of them are going to be relevant for your end goal 43:33 Speaker B which is a conversion to a paying consumer 43:36 Speaker B So I think it's really important that we just get really clear on what we're trying to achieve on this platform 43:42 Speaker B as a marketing tool 43:44 Speaker B Let's remember 43:45 Speaker B We always drop the marketing part of social media 43:47 Speaker B We're like, oh, we're on social media 43:49 Speaker B It's social media marketing 43:51 Speaker B It is a marketing platform 43:53 Speaker B whether we like it or not, we're being sold to the minute we go on these apps 43:57 Speaker B So you've got to get really clear on who you're marketing to and why you're marketing to them 44:02 Speaker B and set up your, please set up your metrics of measurement based on that 44:08 Speaker B Because anything like a follower or a like, they're just vanity metrics 44:12 Speaker B They're just serving the ego 44:14 Speaker B They're not serving the business 44:15 Speaker B I can assure you 44:17 Speaker A What's next for you 44:19 Speaker A And do you have a strategy 44:22 Speaker A Is it just audience growth and C 44:25 Speaker A or is there a long-term vision and strategy 44:28 Speaker B Um 44:31 Speaker B speaking to a strategist 44:33 Speaker B Um 44:35 Speaker B I 44:37 Speaker B a little bit of both 44:38 Speaker B I think I'm very 44:41 Speaker B I think there's a lot of things that have come my way in recent years that if I hadn't been open at the right just open to opportunity 44:49 Speaker B they wouldn't have landed in my lap 44:51 Speaker B And if I try to be strategic and plan too much 44:54 Speaker B I wouldn't have been so open to the opportunities that presented themselves to me 44:59 Speaker B I do think I'm now in a stage where obviously when you go out by yourself, you've you've got to make sure there's there's 45:07 Speaker B uh there's opportunity and invest, you know, all the things coming in at the right time 45:12 Speaker B and cash flow and all of that sort of thing 45:14 Speaker B So I have to get a bit more strategic 45:17 Speaker B So I'm thinking about 45:20 Speaker B um 45:22 Speaker B I'm thinking more a bit about it holistically though 45:27 Speaker B I'm thinking about like who do I want to be known for 45:30 Speaker B When I leave a room, how do I want to make people feel 45:34 Speaker B Um what's the three things I want people to think about when they think of me 45:40 Speaker B Um and then how can I build product around that sort of emotion and feeling and connection that I'm building with my audience 45:44 Speaker B So I would say there's definitely elements of like strategic, holistic thinking, bigger picture thinking 45:50 Speaker B will I also post something that comes to me like that and I feel very emotional 45:55 Speaker B uh you know, connected to the topic 45:58 Speaker B or I feel very emotionally charged about something 46:01 Speaker B Absolutely 46:02 Speaker B And I think that's 46:04 Speaker B Um 46:06 Speaker B I think you've got to always have room for that, you know 46:09 Speaker B That sort of reactive um 46:13 Speaker B moment or being willing to sort of pivot or change direction when something comes your way 46:20 Speaker B But um 46:22 Speaker B yeah, I'm just sort of sitting in this time 46:24 Speaker B where I'm doing a lot of this sort of thing 46:27 Speaker B I'm creating a lot of content 46:30 Speaker B I'm doing a sort of exploring a little bit of workshop and consultancy 46:36 Speaker B uh working with different types of people 46:38 Speaker B so that probably by this time next year, I'll be like, yeah, this is who I am, this is what I want to do 46:43 Speaker B But I'm allowing myself this time to explore because 46:47 Speaker B I spent the last sort of five years following my calendar every single day 46:53 Speaker B minute by minute, hour by hour 46:56 Speaker B and being dictated by lots of other people 47:00 Speaker B And so now I'm just sort of sitting in this moment, allowing my gut to do a little bit of the talking as well 47:05 Speaker B thinking 47:06 Speaker B and um 47:08 Speaker B yeah, just really enjoying it 47:10 Speaker A And I find that that's where a lot of the magic comes sometimes 47:13 Speaker A where you pause and you actually have that space to explore 47:16 Speaker A to try stuff 47:17 Speaker A And I'm very excited, I feel like you join us at an interesting moment 47:20 Speaker A It'll be it'll be exciting to see where you are a year from now 47:24 Speaker A Grace, thank you so much 47:26 Speaker A I want to give a few moments to if anyone wants to ask a few quick fire questions 47:30 Speaker A Get get yourselves ready if you've got a question 47:34 Speaker A Um the final question that I always ask guests on my podcast is 47:39 Speaker A Grace, what is your personal definition of success 47:44 Speaker B Um 47:46 Speaker B finishing the day and feeling finishing every day or any day 47:52 Speaker B and feeling that sense of fullness and fulfillment 47:58 Speaker B whether it's with work, family, health, whatever it is 48:04 Speaker B It's like feeling that sense of fullness 48:08 Speaker B Um where you finish the day and you're like, yeah 48:11 Speaker B I did everything I could to to feel that sense of fulfillment, of fullness today 48:16 Speaker B Um 48:18 Speaker B I think that's what success feels like to me 48:21 Speaker A Give it for Grace, everyone 48:22 Speaker A Right 48:23 Speaker A Hands in the air 48:24 Speaker A Anyone got a quick fire question 48:27 Speaker A We've literally got a couple of minutes if anyone wants to ask 48:30 Speaker A Right 48:31 Speaker A Helen, it's up to you 48:32 Speaker A You've been bloody mic 48:33 Speaker A Right 48:34 Speaker A Here we go 48:35 Speaker A I've got to be 48:36 Speaker A doing everything 48:37 Speaker A Am I on, Darren 48:38 Speaker A Am I 48:40 Speaker A Turn me on, Darren 48:41 Speaker A Right 48:42 Speaker A Here we go 48:44 Speaker B I'm just going to say, um, we'll come back in a year and tell us how you get on 48:49 Speaker B Yeah 48:50 Speaker B if you have me 48:51 Speaker A Just watch her vlog 48:52 Speaker A She'll tell you 48:54 Speaker A Anyone else 48:55 Speaker A Any quick questions 48:57 Speaker A Ross, come on 48:58 Speaker A This is your moment, man 49:00 Speaker A All I was going to say, Grace, is, um, you said that 49:03 Speaker A and I completely agree with you 49:04 Speaker A everyone that you saw who was a CEO who had like achieved really, really big stuff had had found there was no balance 49:11 Speaker A in terms of like they just gone all in on on on that thing 49:13 Speaker A and they'd made sacrifice 49:15 Speaker A Is there any other 49:16 Speaker A was was there like any other universal attributes you you just felt across the board these people had 49:23 Speaker B Um 49:27 Speaker B what's a nice way to put it 49:30 Speaker B Um like psychotic obsession 49:32 Speaker A Right 49:33 Speaker B Like obsession to the point where I don't think they think about anything else 49:37 Speaker B at any minute of any hour of any day 49:41 Speaker B Um 49:43 Speaker B I that there's someone who writes on Instagram about it 49:47 Speaker B and they capture it really nicely 49:49 Speaker B I can't remember the name right now 49:51 Speaker B And um 49:53 Speaker B it's that sort of granular like that just live and breathe and sweat and dream about the thing they're building and the thing they're working on 50:01 Speaker B Um I also think the other thing would probably be that the most successful people were all able to separate their ego from from what they were achieving 50:08 Speaker B I think there was a middle, a middle group of people 50:13 Speaker B who had maybe not achieved the great heights of success of your Richard Branson's, your like Whitney Wolf herds, your Amy grades 50:20 Speaker B your those sort of people 50:23 Speaker B Um and they weren't able to separate their ego from what they were doing 50:28 Speaker B which chained them down to wherever they were 50:31 Speaker B and they couldn't break through that ceiling 50:33 Speaker B Whereas I think when you're able to remove your ego, you become less romantic about outcomes 50:40 Speaker B and it becomes much more dictated by numbers and people 50:44 Speaker B and and the reality of the situation 50:47 Speaker B And the best entrepreneurs across the board, whether they were I worked at the privilege of working with all of the um 50:54 Speaker B brands that Steve invested in for Dragons Den 50:58 Speaker B So some really early stage entrepreneurs and some sort of more middle stage entrepreneurs 51:03 Speaker B And um as soon as they could stop being romantic about their idea or romantic about the outcome 51:11 Speaker B and your ego is involved 51:13 Speaker B it's like you've got blinkers on and know what you can't hear anything else 51:16 Speaker B anyone's saying or any advice 51:18 Speaker B you don't take anything in 51:20 Speaker B And you think you're the best at everything 51:23 Speaker B and you think no one could do it like you can 51:26 Speaker B And then when you drop that, it actually just becomes about 51:30 Speaker B how can we make the best thing possible here 51:33 Speaker B And that might be 50 iterations on from what you've currently got 51:39 Speaker B But you're willing to experiment, test and like be fed the listen to the results that come in 51:44 Speaker B So I would say like unwavering obsession 51:49 Speaker B and then at the same time losing, removing your ego from whatever you're creating 51:56 Speaker B I think they were like the most common traits 52:01 Speaker A Amazing 52:02 Speaker A Well, I'll have to leave it there 52:03 Speaker A Can we give a massive round of applause for Grace 52:06 Speaker A Thank you 52:07 Speaker A Grace Andrews, everybody Topics: Grace Andrews Steven Bartlett Diary of a CEO podcast success social media manager personal branding persistence business mastery content creation career growth --- This is the markdown twin of https://sozai.app/transcript/why-i-quit-working-with-steven-bartlett-grace-andre-transcript/ — the same content, without the markup. 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