**Has the VAR debate become bigger than football itself? — Transcript & Summary | SozAI**
Source: https://sozai.app/transcript/var-debate-bigger-than-football/

A deep dive into the VAR debate, its impact on football refereeing, and media coverage eight years after its introduction.

## Key Takeaways

- VAR was introduced to improve decision accuracy but has sometimes led to incorrect decisions, frustrating fans and professionals alike.
- Referees may experience tunnel vision during VAR reviews, focusing narrowly and missing broader context.
- The authority of on-field referees is perceived to be diminished due to reliance on VAR and rushed decisions.
- Media and fan reactions to VAR oscillate between hysteria and indifference, risking damage to the football product.
- Football laws and VAR technology remain imperfectly aligned, complicating the decision-making process.

## What the video covers

- The video discusses the ongoing controversy surrounding VAR, focusing on a recent Manchester Derby incident involving Erling Haaland's disallowed goal.
- Experts analyze the concept of 'tunnel vision' in VAR decisions and how it leads to critical errors despite video technology.
- The discussion highlights fan frustration with repeated VAR mistakes and the desire for improved accuracy over apologies.
- The challenges of integrating VAR with existing football laws, which were not designed for video review, are examined.
- The impact of VAR on referees' authority and decision-making on the field is debated, including the reluctance to use pitchside monitors.
- The podcast explores the broader media and fan fatigue regarding VAR and refereeing controversies in the Premier League.
- Comparisons are made with refereeing cultures in Spain and Italy, noting differences in media scrutiny and fan engagement.
- The episode touches on the self-inflicted nature of VAR issues and the risk it poses to the Premier League's global reputation.
- The role of media in shaping the narrative around referees and VAR decisions is discussed, including the rise of social media scrutiny.
- The podcast reflects on the future of VAR and refereeing standards, questioning whether the system is evolving or devolving.

## Chapters

1. 00:00 Introduction and VAR controversy overview
2. 02:46 Challenges and evolution of VAR technology
3. 05:06 Selective scrutiny and fan fatigue with VAR
4. 08:04 Historical context of refereeing errors
5. 10:55 Referee authority and personality in officiating
6. 13:44 Impact of VAR on game flow and fan preferences
7. 18:54 Comparisons with refereeing cultures in Spain and Italy
8. 24:25 Media role and future outlook on VAR and refereeing

Answers

## Questions about this video

What is the main issue with VAR discussed in the video?

The main issue is that despite VAR being introduced to improve accuracy, it sometimes leads to incorrect decisions due to tunnel vision and pressure on officials, as seen in the Manchester Derby incident.

How has VAR affected the authority of on-field referees?

VAR has diminished on-field referees' authority, with officials less likely to use pitchside monitors and often rushing decisions, relying heavily on VAR reviews instead.

What impact does the VAR debate have on fans and the Premier League?

The VAR debate causes oscillation between hysteria and indifference among fans, which jeopardizes the Premier League's product and risks damaging its global reputation.

## Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown

00:03

Speaker A

[music] A few days after the VAR controversy in the Manchester Derby, we're taking a deep dive into every football fan's favorite, or should I say least favorite topic: referees. [music] Eight years after VAR was introduced, what's changed? Has refereeing got worse? And how has the wider media discussion on referees changed? Welcome to this week's edition of Copper Independent, the Independent Football Podcast. I'm Kieran Jackson, and I'm joined by chief football writer Miguel Delaney.

00:19

Speaker A

Hello. And sports editor Jack Rathborne. Hello. We're recording the morning after Harold Webb [music] has appeared alongside Michael Owen in Match Officials Miked Up, the inevitable unveiling of the VAR audio for Erling Haaland's controversial goal on Sunday, which has since been acknowledged as an error. So we'll start there. I mean, Webb described the VAR in this case, Matt Dono, as getting tunnel vision as he went through the process of making the decision. Miguel, you're obviously watching the game and I've since dissected the kind of inevitable fallout online and from Pro Ref. What have you made of it all, and has it just kind of underlined a few things about where VAR is at the moment?

00:29

Speaker A

Well, tunnel vision sums up so much, and it seems it's such an indicative phrase. I mean, look, just the one thing I would say first of all is the whole little episode with Miked Up almost sums it up because I can't believe I'm going to say this, but it is true though. People are sick of apologies in football. Like, they want now improved accuracy or they want, they don't want this kind of thing again because this is exactly what they were supposed to prevent. And I think that's the biggest frustration because the whole goal feels separate to, and yet an extension of, the usual VAR debate because this isn't about slowing the game down, frustration, all that. It's actually inserting an incorrect decision into the game after having the opportunity to look at all the video footage. Well, that is supposed to be, like, that's precisely supposed to be the opposite of what VAR is there for. So to actually go to this trouble and then have it wrong, it does feel like why this particular story or this particular incident has taken on another dimension. Obviously, I'm sure people would say, "Oh, it's because it's against Manchester United and all this," but it is a big game, and it's a big game that's been decided by one goal, and that goal should have been chalked off. And yeah, I mean, as I say, people in football are sick of apologies. They can point to, you know, so many or whatever.

00:44

Speaker A

But to break it down, I thought that phrase of tunnel vision was so instructive. There's been a lot of recent stuff written about this, some great books like What I Think About VAR. This could be seen as an inevitable evolution or devolution, if you like, of where VAR is going to go because there is so much to consider in real time, because there's so much pressure, because the football laws weren't built for video review. They were built for the game as it's played fluently. So suddenly you have to retrofit or adapt the laws to, and like, they're not fully in sync to having video, and hence I think you get this situation where tunnel vision is actually exactly the right word. Where they're so focused on one aspect that they're forgetting to look at the goal in its totality.

00:57

Speaker A

The goal is just stalled or whatever phrase you want to use, and the only consideration as regards Enzo Fernandez, who was clearly offside, was whether he touched the ball, not whether he was offside, and that actually affected the ball. And so it reminded me, I suppose, I said this on Scotty Sports when I was doing their show, when you're editing a piece, something like that, and you're so focused on certain things to look for, and then suddenly it's printed out or you see it online, it's published, and you think, how did I miss that? This mass, but it's just because of the kind of psychology of when you're trying to scrutinize for something. But then I suppose the whole point of VAR, like this, especially when people are looking at the TV, screaming at it, is that you are supposed to have this wider view. I think people do expect an element of perfection with VAR.

01:09

Speaker A

The video technology has been brought in to clear up obvious decisions, and in this instance, it switched a no goal to a goal when the right decision was to disallow the goal. I mean, I think that's the ultimate frustration. Whether you talk about VAR as an element of losing the passion and fun out of the game because you can't celebrate properly, people want the accuracy if the video technology is there. And I just thought the Miked Up episode was so interesting because, much like that Luis Diaz disallowed goal which should have been allowed in 2023, you look at, you listen to it, and it kind of beggars belief a little bit as to the audio. Back with the Diaz thing, they just rushed through it, and this time Webb described it as tunnel vision. But for me, it was just when he realized Haaland was on the side. You could hear the VAR rushing through the system, like, we need to get this game going again. We need to get the game going again, which is something they are criticized for, but ultimately it should be about the right decision, and that's why the Fernandez interference was overlooked. I mean, Jack, what have you made of it all?

01:14

Speaker A

Similar to you. It's just incredible how selective they were on what they wanted to debate to the minute detail and then what they rushed through. I think we're now at a point where we're between hysteria around the VAR and officials and just pure indifference and fatigue. And I think that's probably the scariest thing for the Premier League, is that they have something which is jeopardizing their product. And it's, as Miguel has reported on and has mentioned, it's all self-inflicted. And I think that's a really dangerous place to be in, that the product, as we've discussed on the pitch, and the very best players in the world perhaps playing away from a Premier League, yet actually the football and the competition has been such a captivating thing for the English export and football in general here. And yet this is completely clouding what a lot of people tune in for, and they use it as an escape. And yeah, it's really jeopardizing the product. Have standards fallen, do we think? I mean, we've obviously watched the game for a number of years, some professional capacity or just as a fan.

01:26

Speaker A

Do we think that the impact of VAR has made on-field officiating worse because they know they've got the safekeep element of going back to a VAR decision? Because it struck me as very telling that Michael Oliver wasn't sent to the screen and just rolled along with the decision. It was such, you know, a big moment in the game. It looked like a clear offside with Haaland, let alone Fernandez. So the fact he didn't even get taken to the pitchside monitor, Miguel, I mean, it kind of was really telling for me that the on-field official has kind of lost that authority.

01:38

Speaker A

Well, I think there's two ways to look at this. First of all, I think Pro Ref is now a rebrand, and so Irish journalist Dion Fanning has joked that they might be doing another rebrand after this. I think they would have stats about obviously improved accuracy. I think it's generally true as well that just simply by virtue of having the VAR, there's more decisions that we have right. But this isn't actually about improved accuracy anymore, and just as an example, I suppose the biggest from last season, the West Ham one against Arsenal, the foul on David Raya without VAR probably passes, maybe got a whole different run in, but people wouldn't necessarily complain about the digital Arsenal p

01:57

Speaker A

look at all the video footage. Well, that is supposed to be like that's precisely supposed to be the opposite of what bar is there for. So to actually go to this trouble and then have it wrong, it it does feel like why this this

02:10

Speaker A

particular story or this particular incident has taken on another dimension. Obviously I'm sure people would say, "Oh, it's because it's against Manchester United and all this, but it is a big game and it's a big game that's been decided by one goal and that goal

02:23

Speaker A

should have been chocked off." And yeah, I mean, as I say, people are people in football are sick of apologies. they can point to, you know, so many or whatever.

02:31

Speaker A

But to break it down, I thought that phrase of tunnel vision was so instructive. There's been a lot of like recent stuff written about this, some some great books like what I think about VAR. This could be seen as an inevitable

02:46

Speaker A

evolution or devolution if you like of where VAR is going to go where because there is so much to consider in real time because there's so much the pressure because the football's laws they weren't built for video review.

03:01

Speaker A

They were built for the game as it's played fluently. So suddenly you have to retrofit or adapt the laws to and like they're not they're not fully in sync to like to to having video and hence think you get this situation where tunnel

03:14

Speaker A

vision is actually exactly the right word. Um where the they're so focused on one aspect that they're forgetting to look at the goal in its in its totality.

03:23

Speaker A

the goal is just stalls or whatever phrase you want to use and like the only consideration as regards Enzo Fernandez who was clearly offside was whether he touched the ball not whether he was offside and that actually affected the

03:34

Speaker A

ball and so like it reminded me I suppose I said this on on Scotty Sports when I was doing their show when you're editing a piece something like that and you're so focused on certain things to look for and then suddenly it's printed

03:46

Speaker A

out or you see it online it's publishing and you think how did I miss that this mass but but it's just because the kind of the psy psychology of when you're trying to scrutinize for something. But then I suppose the whole point of VR

03:59

Speaker A

like this, especially when people are like looking at the TV, screaming at it, is that you can you are supposed to have this this wider view. I think people do expect an element of perfection with VR.

04:10

Speaker A

The the video technology has been brought in to clear up obvious decisions and in this instance, it switched a no goal to a goal when the right decision was was to disallow the goal. I mean, I think that's the the ultimate

04:22

Speaker A

frustration. Whether you talk about V as an element of losing the passion and fun out of the game because you can't celebrate properly, people want the accuracy if the video technology is there. And I just thought the the miked

04:32

Speaker A

up episode was so interesting because much like that Lewis Diaz disallowed goal which should have been allowed in 2023.

04:39

Speaker A

It kind you look at you listen to it and it kind of beggars belief a little bit as to the audio back with the Diaz thing. They just rushed through it and this time web described it as tunnel

04:49

Speaker A

vision. But for me it was just when he realized Harland was on the side. You could hear the VR rushing through the system was like we need to get we need to get this game going again. We need to

04:56

Speaker A

get the game going again which is something they are criticized for but ultimately it should be about the right decision and that's why the Fernandez interference was was overlooked. I mean Jack what what have you made of it all?

05:06

Speaker A

Similar to you. It's just incredible how selective they were on what they what they wanted to debate to the minute detail and then what they they rushed through. I think we're now at a point where we're between hysteria around the

05:23

Speaker A

AR and officials and just pure indifference and fatigue. And I think that's probably the scariest thing for the Premier League is that they have something which is jeopardizing their their product. And it's as Miguel has has reported on and has mentioned, it's

05:42

Speaker A

all self-inflicted. And I think that that's that's a really dangerous place to be in that the the product as we've discussed on the pitch and the very best players in the world perhaps playing away from a Premier League yet actually

05:57

Speaker A

the football and the competition has been such a captivating uh thing for the English export and football in general here. And yet this is completely clouding what what a lot of people uh tune in for and they use it as an escape

06:14

Speaker A

and yeah it's it's really jeopardizing product. Have standards fallen do we think? I mean we've obviously watched the game for for a number of years some professional capacity or just as a fan.

06:24

Speaker A

Do we think that the impact of VR has made onfield officiating worse because they know they've got the the safekeep element of of going back to a VR decision? Because it it struck me as very telling that Michael Oliver wasn't

06:39

Speaker A

sent to the screen and just rolled along with the decision. It was such, you know, a big moment in the game. It looked like a clear offside with Harden, let alone Fernandez. So the fact he didn't even got taken to the pitch side

06:49

Speaker A

monitor, Miguel, I mean it kind of it was kind of really telling for me that the onfield official has kind of lost that authority.

06:56

Speaker A

Well, I think there's two ways to look at this. First of all, I think pro as now a rebrand and so Irish journalist Dion Fanning has joked that they might be doing another rebrand after this. I think they would have they would have

07:10

Speaker A

stats about obviously improved accuracy. I think it's generally true as well that just simply by virtue of having the V there's more decisions that we have right but but this isn't actually about improved accuracy anymore and just as an

07:27

Speaker A

example I suppose the like the most the biggest from last season the West Ham one against Arsenal the the foul on David Reya without V that probably passes maybe got a whole different run in but people wouldn't necessarily

07:42

Speaker A

complain about the digital arsenal probably would but um because there was so much going on in the box but you can see when everything's added up yes it it's it's probably the right call so that's a greater accuracy but like some

07:56

Speaker A

of this comes down to what we expect of referees and we'll get into this about kind of the change media dimension like I was think before we came on I was kind of looking through this what would be

08:04

Speaker A

what would be considered the worst decisions in English football history like I'm not I'm not talking about abroad or the World Cup world I'm talking pure purely in England and right I suppose people will point to you the

08:16

Speaker A

Colin Sugenwood in 1971 h when actually when Arsenal won the double and and West Brom scored a goal against leads United there's the Clive Allen ghost goal uh where the ball hit the stansion and came out and a goal was given a goal wasn't

08:30

Speaker A

given for Crystal Palace but it did feel a a lot of the discussion about it was much more muted I think because the stakes were lower that's something we can touch on me there isn't I mean there's not as many cameras there's not

08:44

Speaker A

as focus there's not the same media storm around it but also that's of an era where football of course itself is yes it's professional football but it's less professionalized there's so much more of a a kind of a rough and ready

08:57

Speaker A

element to football right down to preparation to fitness the tactics everything and by extension refs were the same and this is where I suppose there's a bit of a disconnect in that obviously we've got so many cameras now

09:08

Speaker A

the the media storm is so much greater. There's such a kind of a yearning for content that people in like the the question isn't necessarily whether refereeing is more accurate, but whether the standards because I mean I don't really believe

09:24

Speaker A

there was this golden age of refereeing. It's just kind of the focus on is completely different. Uh it's just the standards are expected to be well as I think as you put it Kieran I mean it's K it basically gets down to kind of people

09:36

Speaker A

want perfection due to technology but by definition because of what V is because of what decisions they look at are perfection is impossible but this issue specific issue wasn't about perfection.

09:49

Speaker A

Yeah I think that's something that that came about after the the West Ham disallow goal in May. I think a a big topic of discussion was that because offside is is black and white so per se it should be that maybe V should just

10:02

Speaker A

stick to offsides and anything which is more subjective about a foul in the box should stick to an onfield decision generally speaking the thing is with this of course is that it is offside and they've still screwed it up. I mean Jack

10:13

Speaker A

in terms of where the refereeing standards is at the moment and in terms of do we actually think refering has has fallen a little bit. I probably agree with Miguel. I don't I don't think that's necessarily the case. There's

10:24

Speaker A

been some clangers throughout history. I mean, I remember the ghost goal in 2005 and obviously that was goal line technology and we brought that in and everyone said it was obvious whereas V hasn't been implemented so effectively it seems.

10:37

Speaker A

Yeah, I I agree. Maybe there is a little bit of nostalgia around officials from a previous era. uh you immediately think of Pier Luigi Kina of that ilk who were sort of heralded as as as the standard quote unquote but I think maybe that is

10:55

Speaker A

something that potentially the Premier League and officials need to to look at that that presence that whether it is charisma and does personality come into it. I mean, obviously, it's a dangerous um line. You you get there because you

11:08

Speaker A

don't want them to insert themselves into the game and become a personality on the pitch, but I feel like that respect element and sort of sort of like seeps into trust as well. I think it should be sort of it's forgone a little

11:23

Speaker A

bit, but yeah, maybe we need to lean on some of these officials who are sort of I don't know, championed by UEFA and FIFA, the likes of Michael Oliver. I mean, VR is undermining officials of that standard, that that experience that

11:39

Speaker A

they have over sort of dozens of very high-profile games. And you're right, Kieran, I I think it would have been preferable if you give the power a little bit back to those those said officials, particularly on a stage like Old Trafford, a game of

11:58

Speaker A

that that magnitude. Bring them over and let and give them the tools a little bit. Obviously, it's great to have a a second a third pair of eyes sort of and that communication, but yeah, maybe you need to sort of involve them a little

12:11

Speaker A

bit more. And then I think in turn maybe the fans like sort of build that that that connection and that rapport with with an official and they can maybe sort of trust them a little bit more and like

12:25

Speaker A

see the the process that they go for. Whereas I think because the AR is sort of detached and away from the the stadium, the pitch, it does seem like maybe that's lost a little bit.

12:37

Speaker A

Just touching on that though, Jack, just as you were talking that kind of struck me and sorry Kieran for deviating from the script slightly, but one thing I'm curious there like a did you guys want VR and b what do you feel about now?

12:53

Speaker A

Because I must say I'm probably much more ambivalent than than most. I can see all these flaws. I can very much see the argument now that actually this is impossible to impose properly and I feel I should just give a shout out because I

13:07

Speaker A

did a bit of a disservice in the kind of in the first part. The book I was speaking of is by Daisy Christu.

13:12

Speaker A

Apologies for Mr. M and Daisy, but it's I can't stop thinking about VA, which is brilliant on this disconnect between, you know, would the way football's laws are written and now having a mode of applying them which doesn't necessarily

13:24

Speaker A

fit with the way the laws are written cuz I have to say I think given we mentioned kind of, you know, games from the past and all that, I still do find when I watch some of those games and you

13:34

Speaker A

see an obvious issue and look, maybe I'm conditioned now, but my instinct is to go, it's got to go to VR. Yeah. And these are some of the most famous kind of the big issues of the past cuz I

13:44

Speaker A

still find it absurd especially when there's going to be so much focus. And let's not forget that one of the reasons V existed is because the ref discussion and criticism was growing so much in the decade building up to it. But it still

13:56

Speaker A

feels absurd to me that you have you would have recourse to kind of video that especially all the audience would have recourse to video review and the men the most important individuals at the center of this wouldn't. So I'm

14:08

Speaker A

still that that's still that still feels to me why an argument for keeping bar I suppose we're again back to kind of implementation I would reject I must say this this usual argument it's not the technology it's the people I think it's

14:21

Speaker A

more complex than that because I think it's it's the issue of how you apply the technology and which maybe there is an issue but anyway yeah be I'd be I'd be curious to see to what you guys both

14:32

Speaker A

think at this point. Yeah, we were discussing before we um we came on air about how a few West Ham fans we know have gone down to the championship.

14:40

Speaker A

Obviously, West Ham have gone down to the championship and now with no V, they can celebrate their goals freely and and have all that moment and they're they're all of the opinion that oh, we need to just wipe VR out the game. V is is not

14:51

Speaker A

going anywhere. You know, the use of video technology does improve officiating. You know, the the I know this one is a howler, but generally they get it. It means they get it right. But I I I do think that it's got to a point

15:04

Speaker A

now it's been 8 years since it was properly implemented. The 2018 World Cup was the first time it was really implemented at the top level. And to still have such glaring errors, I think is what people are losing the patience

15:17

Speaker A

with. I don't think it's the fact that they've got the access to the video technology. I don't even think it's the fact that the the element of celebrating a goal has changed because I think people do want accuracy. is about how

15:27

Speaker A

their team perform and results particularly players and managers but the fact that these errors are happening. I mean just it was only it's only 3 years ago that Lewis Diaz goal no goal happened and yet we've had another

15:39

Speaker A

kind of embarrassing moment for for pro ref. I mean what do what do you think Jack?

15:44

Speaker A

I I think it's fantable to to expect it to go away as you as you as you say Kieran. I think it it is here to stay.

15:51

Speaker A

It just needs needs to be um there needs to be a discussion to sort of streamline it. Uh I think it's interesting about the delay in the game, whether fans enjoy or like hate the fact that it it

16:04

Speaker A

does delay the game and add on considerable time. I think it's interesting you would fans prefer sort of a cap on the amount of time that the A spends on certain decisions, but then you're putting pressure on on the

16:17

Speaker A

officials. fans would prefer it until there's a howler against their team. Yeah. And this is what so much when it comes down to it, which sounds sounds absurd to sort of put even more pressure on the AR, but

16:30

Speaker A

we've seen it in other sports. Um I saw World Athletics, they had at their ultimate championships at the weekend when there's an incident in race, they almost wanted a decision whether to advance an athlete to a final before the

16:42

Speaker A

race even finishes. Talking seconds there. So yeah, I I think like obviously offsides is as Kieran mentioned black and white, but it feels like there needs to be sort of almost like categories to these decisions and yeah, just very much

16:58

Speaker A

a case of we need to get to a crux of the matter straight away. Whereas they seem to tie themselves in knots a little bit, particularly with this one, they given the number of minds that were working on this to sort of avoid the

17:13

Speaker A

main issue of the the incident was was almost unforgivable. I mean, just a final point before we move on to I think what is probably the more interesting discussion about the the media world and and officiating.

17:23

Speaker A

Bringing up other sports is an interesting one because obviously rugby has had television match officials for a long time and they don't always get it right. you know the the these decisions whether it's you know something happening out of scrum the these are

17:36

Speaker A

always debated within the rugby world after the match particularly if it's not subjective about whether the ball has crossed the line or whether someone's in touch same with the tennis world which has brought in video review recently about double bounces it's still not

17:47

Speaker A

obviously clear errors are still made so I I think it's it's important to recognize that football isn't alone in trying to solve this issue about bringing in video technology and when a decision isn't actually clearcut that it's really difficult to actually

18:02

Speaker A

ascertain which side of the coin you you go on. Obviously in this case it's so frustrating because it does seem so obvious. We'll take a quick break and then we'll come back and discuss the wider media discussion on referees.

18:15

Speaker A

Welcome back and now we're going to delve a bit deeper into the wider media world on referees really which has become quite a big business. Um whether it's kind of referee watch on Sky Sports every Monday morning with Derma

18:27

Speaker A

Gallagher or refereeing experts in live matches analyzing and discussing officiating decisions. It's become a big part of the sports media world in a way I don't think it really was a decade or two ago particularly on broadcast television. Megs, what have you noticed

18:41

Speaker A

over the last decade or say maybe since VR was introduced in 2018 in terms of the wider media discussion? Because it's kind of everywhere now, whether it's your Twitter, your Instagram, on TV, you you can't escape it.

18:54

Speaker A

I think we've become, sorry, I say we, those of us in the English cultural ecosystem, English football cultural ecosystem, it's become Spain/Ity. So like obviously I'm half Spanish and when I would go to Spain when I was kind of

19:09

Speaker A

young late 90s early 2000s and getting really attuned to football media I used to be stunned about how like this was a league like in 9697 had Ronaldo you know in the early 2000s the galacticos like an array of stars and yet you'd pick up

19:24

Speaker A

the front page of sports pages which was obviously bigger than the internet at the time and it be about like there'd be an off sideline drawn or some complaint about referees and I like this is like you're watching some of the best

19:34

Speaker A

football in the and you're obsessed with the refs and and I used to think at the time actually watching obviously Irish football, English football obviously people discuss referees but it never felt as intense it never felt such singular focus like and to compare it as

19:51

Speaker A

well when you're watching match of the day like this is something that that really was thinking of yesterday a little podcast on it [snorts] where we match a day would just be about the football and the discussion how many

20:00

Speaker A

times on match of the day in the 90s or even 2000s would you have at that point Designer or Gary Linker have to show, you know, put on the screen. Well, you well, these are the actual laws. Whereas

20:13

Speaker A

it feels like Kelly Case does that almost every time she's on now, though. But you he has to spell out like that.

20:18

Speaker A

That is something that has fundamentally changed. I do think that is something that ties into everything we've discussed in the greater cameras. I think the heightened stakes. So yeah, I do I do think absolutely in that sense English football has become like Spain

20:31

Speaker A

and Italy in a in where discussion of ref referees has really kind of spread and dominated to become one of the main talking points of the game and I suppose the most the more interesting question about that is because I do think that is

20:46

Speaker A

that's that's actually separate to something about standards. this is something about whether it's it's an inevitable point where the game goes cuz even as you were talking there Kieran about kind of the discussion in other sports I found myself kind of almost

20:58

Speaker A

tricking myself into kind of thinking that usual thing like it's amazing to be in in the Premier League now and it's so bad whereas the you know the world cup will work perfectly the world cup it didn't we had I mean I've remember two

21:10

Speaker A

weeks in the world cup there was this massive discussion about refereing has been appalling and I was at one one of the games with the with the biggest issues which was Argentina Egypt where we had, you know, two two big decisions

21:21

Speaker A

in that game. The most notable being the Egyptian goal. It was ruled out because Var called it back for a fairly innocuous foul up the pitch. Similarly, like you know there's there's often a view here that like oh the referees

21:34

Speaker A

elsewhere they don't see this but as you say like Spain and Italy the discussion is is as strong as ever in Spain like it's every single week the referees and I think that is that is that something that's connected to when football adopts

21:49

Speaker A

such stakes both financial stakes and really I suppose more importantly but such emotional stakes such a w this is actually something that is unavoidable a discussion of referees becomes unavoidable.

22:00

Speaker A

Yeah, it has become so forensic the detail and the analysis of of refereeing decisions. I was at the USA Bosnia game and just to just to bring something a little bit different into it. We are talking a week or two since Mike Dean

22:10

Speaker A

admitted he was waiting for how long to blow the blow the whistle in a game and and things like that. And that doesn't help the discussion on referees, does it? Because the wider football fan will just turn their nose up at at that and

22:22

Speaker A

you know and rightly so. So, and when you have something like the Balagan red card overturned with no explanation, that also doesn't help the credibility of refering either. I mean, but it's important to differentiate between just discussion and debates about refering

22:36

Speaker A

and then actual issues as deep as that. I mean, Jack, are we a fan of, you know, ref watch on a Monday morning? Are we a fan of, you know, the live Darren K in for the BBC or whether it be back in the

22:49

Speaker A

day Peter Walton on on BT Sport? I think they were the first to bring it in really in in the English game because I think you'll know better than me being a big follower of the NFL. The NFL have

22:58

Speaker A

had this for a fair few years. Yeah, absolutely. I think our in the sort of British broadcasting um sphere.

23:06

Speaker A

I think we we're yet to adopt the the US setup. I mean, we we do have our our pundits, but when you have somebody like a Jean Ster or Mike Pereira on NFL broadcast, it they almost feel like the

23:19

Speaker A

authority and someone that you you need to take notice of, even if you don't quite understand them, whereas I think as as you mentioned in for our our broadcast, it's just not quite it feels a bit awkward and clunky when uh someone

23:34

Speaker A

like Darren Fletcher sort of segus towards the official. But you're right. I think um non-live referee analysis has become part of the narrative between games and obviously given the saturation of the the calendar there's not too much time for that but it really does fill a

23:53

Speaker A

gap. You mentioned sort of Jay Bothoid on a on a Monday. It feels like there's sometimes an opportunity for certain uh pundits be them be professional or just fans and am amateur pundits influencers if you like they can generate a lot of

24:10

Speaker A

attention. I mean the just noting on Twitter or ex that Jay Bothroy clip where he calls out Howard Webb and demands that he comes on the show for a a showdown if you will a head-to-head debate. He he gives Derma Gallagh that

24:25

Speaker A

showed there's so many times where him and Derma really get into it. Yeah. But I mean Derma getting aggravated.

24:30

Speaker A

Absolutely. I mean Jay Wroy obviously was a was a good player but by no means like top top top level and yet he's getting I I saw 1.2 million views just on his his sort of uh yeah his speech um

24:45

Speaker A

on that show. I mean the V audio is getting a similar amount millions of views. Um, and I think there's almost maybe the pool of referee pundits needs to be expanded. Um, I think that there are some which I think generally seem to

25:01

Speaker A

sort of appeal to the the fans. I mean, Christina Uncle seems mostly um, widely accepted and like her analysis enjoyed, but you're right. I'm just I think we're just sort of veering from one extreme to the other. It's not quite obviously from

25:16

Speaker A

a from another era where we had cow chop and that's a totally different thing corruption. But you mentioned Miguel about the World Cup and poor officiating potentially as damaging even if there's no substance to it in this case when the

25:30

Speaker A

social media narrative is around oh the the officials have done it again for for Messi. It can be quite damaging how that's the backdrop and it it forms the sort of the baseline of discussion between fans on social media or when

25:46

Speaker A

they're messaging or potentially even if they're just only half joking. It's it's not it's not helpful in the slightest.

25:53

Speaker A

Well, and of course that was skewed in the World Cup by what happened with Balagan. Like I mean obviously that look I'm I'm not saying I'm it's true.

26:01

Speaker A

I'm I think it's a bit absurd the whole idea that like um that the the kind of concerted attempt or anything like that. It's more I as opposed when something like Balagan happens it allow it gives life to

26:17

Speaker A

conspiracy theories basically it legitimizes a lot of arguments because if they see something like that people kind of think well what else is going on but look I I think some of it is just the difficulty or a lot of it is just

26:26

Speaker A

the difficulty of refereeing games and that inevitably error comes in but like but from all that I mean just on on the kind of ref pundits I was kind of thinking like what isn't helpful is when you get a former ref who's on and They

26:42

Speaker A

almost always just say the ref's decision is correct. That's not what we want because I can people could can obviously just by they can immediately hear through it basically or see through it. People want actually robust analysis of why a decision is has been taken and

26:56

Speaker A

if the referee pundit thinks it's wrong to tell us maybe how it's got to that but to be able to call it as wrong. I mean ju just from that Jack how how much interest do you find a sports setter is

27:10

Speaker A

actually in referee pieces because obviously like after a game like Sunday say we're discussing what what's our follow-up going to be what angle should we go on and you do want to either something ideally you drive discussion yourself but also to to discuss

27:24

Speaker A

something or report on something that people are talking about I mean this is beyond moaning isn't it this is like people there's an active interest in in talking about this.

27:34

Speaker A

Yeah, I I'd say so. I think if you sort of peak behind the curtain a little bit just from Sunday, we we noticed that I think perhaps three of the sort of the top 10 stories were sort of referee

27:48

Speaker A

related or adjacent. You had like the explanation from pro. Um you sort of had pundits calling out demanding apologies.

27:57

Speaker A

the explanation, if you will. I think that that can be wildly popular because people are watching it in the on their TVs at their home or on the p in the pub and they're just not sure why something's been given. Maybe the audio

28:11

Speaker A

is obscured, particularly if you're in in in the pub. So, they they need to know quite quickly the rules. Um, obviously a lot of subjectivity around some of the decisions as well. So it there is a genuine interest and like

28:25

Speaker A

come Monday we had uh one of our colleagues uh Will Castle did a did a comment piece on it. I think there is room and there's capacity to have this discussion. It does go beyond moaning or or winging because it's almost I mean

28:39

Speaker A

this is the risk I think for the Premier League that it gets away from quite quickly and this becomes a thread throughout the season. I mean quite quickly you've you've had the champions Arsenal and Manchester City detaching themselves a little bit from the chasing

28:52

Speaker A

pack. And if this suddenly becomes a two- horse race, it's a big problem when you you have already got at least two points potentially um awarded controversially if you if in the eyes of Manchester United fans and perhaps

29:08

Speaker A

Arsenal fans. You don't want this to be something that is being brought up in February when the tire race is so close, particularly if it's only a two- horse race. So, I think this is something that it does go beyond winging because it it

29:21

Speaker A

sets the tone, doesn't it? I mean, we we haven't even talked about Arsenal at Sunderland and the way that Mikuel Artetta grasped the situation. um he commanded his his press conference afterwards um giving answers to questions unrelated to the incident and

29:38

Speaker A

just making sure that he emphasized exactly what he found was unacceptable and that penalty for for Sunderland. Um and that's nothing new is it? I mean we you know very well Miguel from uh earlier in your career. I mean Sir Alex

29:52

Speaker A

Ferguson was a was a master at this and I think it blurs the lines a little bit but you're you're right. This this goes beyond just sort of moaning about a decision. This this can form part of sort of the makeup of English football

30:05

Speaker A

in terms of the actual like written content. Those referee explainers of simply saying who is the referee, they do absolutely fly when there's a decision whether it be a big football match or even a big rugby match. Yeah.

30:16

Speaker A

They do really well, don't they? And you know that when you think about it, it's it's just very logical. People are watching it. They maybe can't hear the commentary and they want to find out a bit more detail about about said person

30:25

Speaker A

who's making the key decisions on the pitch. So it does make a lot of sense. I think it kind of also goes into a modern day culture now particularly on social media where well this is nothing new.

30:35

Speaker A

This is this is newspapers as well where controversy and witch hunt sell to a certain extent particularly sporting controversy. We've actually had so much talk about sporting controversy. I mean how many times Miguel did you use the word unprecedented to discuss something

30:50

Speaker A

off the pitch or even on it with the World Cup? This is something which is you know is trickles down from top tier politics as well. Controversy in in these debates sells and therefore when it comes to refereeing decisions and the

31:03

Speaker A

discussion around it it can become so almost so visceral almost so antagonistic to the point that we just know it's going to get the clicks you know it's going to get the views.

31:14

Speaker A

Yeah. On on the witch hunt you mentioned Kieran. I'd be interested to know what Miguel thinks on this. V is the villain here. Right. We had like Michael Oliver.

31:24

Speaker A

I mean, this is obviously the most notorious example of this was potentially like Baron Moreno like and and Italy is just sort of consumed by this this nature of like trying to find somebody responsible and that that notorious game between Italy and South

31:40

Speaker A

Korea. I mean you could um Thomas bro as well. I mean Chelsea have had their their uh experiences in Champions League. um that that famous night at the Stanford Bridge against Barcelona. So yeah, I'd be interested to know, Miguel,

31:55

Speaker A

do do you think that maybe the the culprit could shift away from V back towards officials? It seems like English football fans are very much sort of dialed in on on the setup rather than specific officials.

32:11

Speaker A

Yeah, it does. I think VR has become and maybe this is probably just on a pure human level. This is probably a good thing that you people are the most of the hate is directed towards a kind of an abstract

32:26

Speaker A

concept or body or even though the VR is actually a person but the con the whole concept of VR rather than actual people in the like obviously names are are thrown around a lot but it's I think because V is there it's nowhere near as

32:40

Speaker A

intense as it would be but of course if V was to go it would just flip back the other direction. I mean look, let's not forget what happened to kind of Urus Meyer when in Euro 2004 when that

32:53

Speaker A

England goal was ruled out against Portugal or say you know Anders Frisk I basically who felt he had to retire like that scrutiny has been there obviously the way these things happen now a social media has ensured a fame or an infamy

33:08

Speaker A

for for referees that was it's gone to a greater level principally because just just a much greater intensity of discussion as is the case with everything and I was kind of thinking about this actually. I mean referees probably receive a focus given their

33:26

Speaker A

status in the sport given how actual like their actual fame and you can I suppose connect this to pay as well. It it feels completely disproportionate for individual humans to be kind of singled out or or subjected to that level of

33:40

Speaker A

scrutiny in that way. Almost second to it is actually maybe journalists when or the media as a as a you know as a kind of a concept to mash var when we are writing about these things and we and

33:53

Speaker A

people come across an opinion or review or reporting that they don't like I I must say I have been struck by commonalities and parallels between the two is that indicative of two sectors where people don't want to go into them

34:06

Speaker A

either you know journalism and officiating you know not the best paid industries in the world you talk about grassroots referee and you hear stories quite regularly in English in the lower tiers of English football about some very nasty abuse whether it be verbally

34:21

Speaker A

whether it be physical it it's not exactly encouraging of of people trying to get into refereeing and obviously it's it makes logical sense if you have a smaller pool of people you're not going to get the the quality at the at

34:33

Speaker A

the top as well yeah completely look there's a whole other discussion there I mean like in so I'm going to do my newsletter on the whole issue of refs as well this week and a bit like a you know deep reporting

34:44

Speaker A

on the kind of views people within football and all that but one of the things that's already been raised to me is there's so much and this works two ways there's so much focus on the refs at the top that it is detrimental to

34:56

Speaker A

refs coming through a that's in the obvious point it's been made repeatedly before like why would you come into this just to get just to get abused in the way you do and also because abuse at the top or discussion at the top that is

35:08

Speaker A

inevitably mimicked further down And when that happens, you got people who are just turning up for a mash fee or whatever suddenly being subjected to kind of like unacceptable abuse in the day. And that obviously that will look

35:19

Speaker A

there's always going to be a certain personality type attracted to official like that. But you're still you're still inevitably going to force out good people. But the other is actually it's a bit more institutional where there's some in football perceive that there's

35:32

Speaker A

so much focus say from a body like pro or PGMO. Now, I'm sure they would reject this, but there's so much focus in the Premier League in the top of the game that there isn't enough and say raising

35:42

Speaker A

standards in League 2 where the refs ultimately have to come through and people do point to this issue and as as someone pointed out to me this week in all of these media appearance, especially the ones that the Howard Web

35:55

Speaker A

does say, how many times you ever hear discussion about, well, we we need to raise standards in League Two or lower.

36:00

Speaker A

Yeah, for sure. I mean just to kind of end the podcast on something looking towards the next step. Do do you e review go to you first Jack do you see as there being a next step could this be

36:11

Speaker A

a line in the sand this Erling Harland goal in terms of something different brought to V in terms of more clarification on on protocols in terms of something discernably different in terms of what decisions are are left to

36:25

Speaker A

the onfield referee what decisions are left to the V. Is there a discussion to be had about the environment professional referees are in in terms of pay? If you know, if the Premier League is the richest league in the world, why can't they be on

36:37

Speaker A

better salaries and then encourages people to get better, encourages people to get involved? What do you what do you think could happen next? Or do you think we just continue in kind of this controversial echo chamber where it it

36:50

Speaker A

almost seems to be going only one way? I think there is room for a conversation and and you're right, the exorbitant amounts of money flowing into the Premier League that there really should be a trickle down effect and

37:03

Speaker A

officials should be compensated given um the magnitude of the effect they have on the these games. But to be frank, I don't I don't see this being a line in the sand. I don't see it being a reason

37:15

Speaker A

to to drastically change the situation. I think they'll they'll put it down to we go back to the start of the pod and the tunnel vision and I think they'll put this down to just sort of yeah just

37:26

Speaker A

a a a really bad error and it just happened at in the worst possible moment a massive game in a game which was going to be defined by fine margins anyway. I think they'll they'll move on from this

37:39

Speaker A

and they will hope and probably in all likelihood they will we'll see hopefully for for fans as well like a good amount of time before another another decision of this magnitude being wrong. So I I don't see it changing anything anything

37:56

Speaker A

anytime soon. But you K as you twist yourself on Kieran like the football is only a part of the wider theater now like what we are in is kind of it's the the football media industrial complex where it's just a content machine and

38:10

Speaker A

there's constant discussion and not just about the game itself but everything around it with refs being a significant part of that and along those lines is like we see this every week now major stories they've only got [snorts]

38:22

Speaker A

they've only got a shorter life cycle than ever because the news cycle goes so quickly and hence by the same token and just as an example of that like where's the FIFA story now like Infantino was probably unlucky in some ways that there

38:36

Speaker A

was no football at the time and we know in FIFA they were desperate say to to get to the start of the domestic seasons because they knew that once that happened the the the focus would start to fade away which is exactly what's

38:46

Speaker A

happened but by the same token that that decision what you you're both absolutely right if if this is a tight Premier League if this if that ends ends up deciding something either way like the title race or say kind of the Champions

38:59

Speaker A

League race and Manchester United side people will come back to that but right now for all the Fior about it and ultimately we're going to go into another Premier League weekend it'll be you know another set of storylines there probably there will

39:17

Speaker A

inevitably some some kind of refereeing discussion I I'd be dubious as to whether it goes to the heights of the Harland one I think that's probably that's probably going to be biggest disease and just very just for what it

39:28

Speaker A

was. And as we say to bring this full circle because it was almost the insertion of an error by VAR rather than kind of just VAR getting [snorts] an existing decision wrong or or or an existing decision being wrong and var

39:40

Speaker A

not addressing it or something like that. It's actually the insertion of decision but it just the com the discussion will go and and people will just point to the fact that it'll just be another apology next time.

39:49

Speaker A

Yeah. And there's a reason that ref watch on a Monday morning on Sky Sports News can fill an hour every week, right?

39:55

Speaker A

like there there's enough controversial refereeing decisions. Um I would say thanks for joining us you two. Our esteemed colleague Rich Jolly actually wasn't keen to join. He said he described the discussion as tedious referee winging and he wouldn't get

40:08

Speaker A

involved. So he described any discussion on referees as tedious winging. Yeah. Know it was quite quite the statement. Unfortunately for him, you're right. This is going to be a thread throughout the season. No, I I I would I

40:24

Speaker A

mean even on that I would actually invite our listeners given the the YouTube comment section can can get quite it can be vibrant enough there. Um where they are on this do they see it as as tedious winging or is this now

40:38

Speaker A

something that's gone beyond that? But my instinct for years would have been to agree with Rich. But I think that a when there is such a game defining decision, it goes to a threshold and b when we are

40:52

Speaker A

in this era of so much professionalization, you can have a discussion on where things are set, what should be better and also of course I think what is most interesting of all is the way people now talk about this which I think has

41:06

Speaker A

absolutely involved. I think it has indeed beyond gone beyond tedious winging. Yeah, I I certainly hope people think we had a sophisticated debate about refereeing and it wasn't just tedious winging. But yeah, definitely definitely interested to hear your comments and

41:19

Speaker A

what can often be a pretty spicy YouTube comment section. So, thank you Miguel. Thank you Jack for your time today.

41:24

Speaker A

Enjoy talking about all that. Thanks to our producer J. McDonald for his brilliant work on the podcast. As always, make sure you give us a like and subscribe to the Copper Independent, which is part of the Independent Podcast

41:34

Speaker A

Network production. So, please do check out all the shows on our website and on YouTube and we'll catch you again next week. See you then.

Topics: VAR football refereeing Manchester Derby Erling Haaland VAR controversy Premier League football laws referee authority football media VAR debate

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