**Русь и Орда. Антон Горский. Родина слонов №61 — Transcript & Summary | SozAI**
Source: https://sozai.app/transcript/rus-horde-anton-gorsky-roddina-slonov-61/

Explores the historical relationship between Rus' and the Golden Horde, debunking myths and explaining indirect Mongol rule from the 13th to 16th century.

## Key Takeaways

- Mongol rule over Rus' was mostly indirect, preserving local princely authority rather than direct administration.
- The title 'Tsar' was applied to Mongol rulers, affecting Russian perceptions of sovereignty and legitimacy.
- The Golden Horde's control was part of a vast Eurasian phenomenon with varying degrees of direct and indirect rule.
- Russian lands experienced more autonomy under the Horde compared to other conquered regions like China or Iran.
- Historical myths about harsh Mongol domination often overlook the complexity and relative leniency of Horde governance.

## What the video covers

- The video discusses the relationship between Rus' and the Golden Horde from the 13th to the early 16th century, focusing on myths and misconceptions.
- It explains the Mongol conquests across Eurasia and how the Mongol Empire exercised power differently in various regions.
- In Rus', local princes were preserved as intermediaries under indirect Mongol rule, unlike direct rule seen in other conquered territories.
- The concept of the Mongol Khan as a 'Tsar' influenced how Russian lands viewed their suzerainty and submission.
- The video covers the political and administrative structure of Rus' lands under the Horde, including the role of baskaks and tribute systems.
- It contextualizes the Mongol rule within the broader geopolitical situation, including the Byzantine Empire's decline and the Crusader occupation of Constantinople.
- The discussion includes the gradual shift in power dynamics, such as the rise of Moscow princes and the eventual decline of Horde influence.
- Historical events like the Battle of Kulikovo and the Stand on the Ugra are analyzed in relation to Horde-Rus' relations.
- The program aims to reveal overlooked historical facts and challenge traditional narratives about Mongol domination.
- Expert Anton Gorsky provides scholarly insights into the nuanced nature of Mongol-Rus' relations and the broader Eurasian context.

## Chapters

1. 00:00 Introduction to the Homeland of Elephants Program
2. 02:52 Overview of Rus' and the Horde Relationship
3. 05:45 Mongol Rule and Local Princes in Rus'
4. 08:56 Direct vs Indirect Mongol Administration
5. 12:17 Kievan Land and Political Structure
6. 17:12 Byzantine Empire Context and Tsar Concept
7. 19:30 Mongol Influence on Russian Sovereignty
8. 24:35 Key Historical Events and Their Impact
9. 32:12 Decline of Horde Power and Rise of Moscow
10. 47:10 Conclusion and Historical Myths Debunked

Answers

## Questions about this video

How did the Golden Horde govern the Rus' territories?

The Golden Horde governed Rus' mostly through indirect rule by preserving local princes as intermediaries, rather than imposing direct Mongol administration.

Why was the Mongol Khan referred to as 'Tsar' by the Rus'?

The Mongol Khan was called 'Tsar' because the Rus' perceived him as a sovereign ruler of higher rank, similar to the Byzantine Emperor, which influenced their acceptance of Horde suzerainty.

What role did the Battle of Kulikovo play in Rus'-Horde relations?

The Battle of Kulikovo marked a significant moment in the struggle for power, symbolizing the growing assertion of Moscow princes against Horde dominance, although Horde influence persisted afterward.

## Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown

00:01

Speaker A

Caesar. The Crusades, Borodino. All this is the grand facade of history. But what is stored in the basement? The "Homeland of Elephants" program. Things that scientists usually don't talk about because they aren't asked. The program is intended for viewers over 16.

00:24

Speaker A

. Good morning. This is the "Homeland of Elephants" program. A program about historical myths. About the history we don't know. About facts that are quite obvious to scientists, but for some reason have passed us by. My name is

00:34

Speaker A

Good morning. This is the "Homeland of Elephants" program. A program about historical myths. About the history we don't know. About facts that are quite obvious to scientists, but for some reason have passed us by. My name is

00:44

Speaker A

Good morning. Today we are going to talk about an important and significant topic in the history of our country. We have touched on some of its aspects tangentially when talking to Vadim Vintserovich Tripavlov about the Golden Horde, and

00:56

Speaker A

Mikhail Rodin. Our guest today is Anton Anatolyevich Gorsky, Doctor of Historical Sciences and professor at the Department of History of Russia before the 19th Century at the MSU Faculty of History. Good morning.

01:08

Speaker A

i's from beginning to end. We will talk about the relationship between Rus 'and the Horde from the 13th to the 15th, or perhaps the beginning of the 16th century. Because there are a number of myths and not very accurate perceptions

01:25

Speaker A

Good morning. Today we are going to talk about an important and significant topic in the history of our country. We have touched on some of its aspects tangentially when talking to Vadim Vintserovich Tripavlov about the Golden Horde, and

01:46

Speaker A

phenomenon that covered almost the entire Eurasian continent. These were the Mongol conquests, which spread over the territory from the Far East to the Middle East and to Central Europe. And in the course of these conquests, the Mongol Empire, which later

02:08

Speaker A

when talking to Oleg Viktorovich Dvurechensky about the Battle of Kulikovo, also known as the Massacre on the Don. Right. But today we are going to talk about this phenomenon in its entirety and, as it were, dot all the

02:31

Speaker A

territories—as a rule, those located on the periphery of this expansion— power was exercised while retaining local rulers. It was precisely this form of rule that was established in Rus ', with the preservation of local princes who became, as it were, an

02:52

Speaker A

i's from beginning to end. We will talk about the relationship between Rus' and the Horde from the 13th to the 15th, or perhaps the beginning of the 16th century. Because there are a number of myths and not very accurate perceptions

03:08

Speaker A

Everything was done through our own princes. Yes. Well, there were representatives of the administration in some lands, but not in all. These were the baskaks, but only in the first decades after the establishment of power. And they did

03:21

Speaker A

surrounding this. Anton Anatolyevich, let's start with this. Why did these incorrect perceptions emerge, and what did they actually consist of?

03:43

Speaker A

conquered by the Mongols before this— by Genghis Khan and then his sons and grandsons—ended up under direct rule.

03:54

Speaker A

Well, first of all, it must be remembered that the subjugation of Rus' to the power of the Horde was the result of a

04:12

Speaker A

And the fact that this form of indirect rule was established, while preserving local princes, was apparently perceived as the lesser of two evils compared to possible direct rule by the Horde administration in Russian lands.

04:35

Speaker A

phenomenon that covered almost the entire Eurasian continent. These were the Mongol conquests, which spread over the territory from the Far East to the Middle East and to Central Europe. And in the course of these conquests, the Mongol Empire, which later

04:51

Speaker A

later Mongol Empire, which broke up into separate parts. And second, we must not forget that our case is, let's say, not the harshest, so to speak, and in principle we had, well, more freedom , shall we say. So we had a softer,

05:08

Speaker A

disintegrated into several states, including the so-called Golden Horde, exercised power in two main ways. One was the direct subjugation of certain territories, exercising direct power over them. This was the case, say, in China, Central Asia, and Iran, while in

05:27

Speaker A

similar state of dependency as the Russian lands. Ah, I see. To understand how it all developed, we first need to figure out the starting point, what we had by around 1240, at the time of Batu's campaigns. What was our own

05:45

Speaker A

territories—as a rule, those located on the periphery of this expansion—power was exercised while retaining local rulers. It was precisely this form of rule that was established in Rus', with the preservation of local princes who became, as it were, an

05:54

Speaker A

Uh, yes, there were more than a dozen lands, as they were called back then, not principalities, but specifically lands. Most of them were ruled by specific branches of the Rurikid princely dynasty, but there were lands with a different status. This is, first

06:12

Speaker A

intermediary link between the Mongol rulers and the population. That is, it wasn't the case that a Mongol administration came, sat down here among us in Tver, Moscow, or Vladimir, and ruled directly.

06:30

Speaker A

capital status of Kiev was also recognized by the conquerors. And in the Kievan land, the most rigid form of dependency was established. A population census was conducted there, the entire male population was registered and taxed. In other lands,

06:49

Speaker A

Everything was done through our own princes.

07:15

Speaker A

understand why this happened, we need to figure out how the world was perceived in general, including by our princes. Right. And talk about the Byzantine Empire, which at that time was having quite a large number of problems. Please, tell us about that.

07:33

Speaker A

Yes. Well, there were representatives of the administration in some lands, but not in all. These were the baskaks, but only in the first decades after the establishment of power. And they did

07:58

Speaker A

North-Eastern Rus, Smolensk, Volhynia, and others, were effectively independent states. But there was a notion of, uh, the existence of a power of a higher order than the power of Russian princes, of any Russian prince —the power of the Byzantine Emperor.

08:22

Speaker A

not carry out administration. Their function was to control the actions of the princes. But initially, after Batu's campaign, they in Rus' couldn't have known that such a form of rule, preserving local princes, would be established, because all the countries

08:42

Speaker A

, uh, on a global scale, so to speak, the Greek Tsar, as he was called in Rus , was considered a ruler of a higher rank than any of the Russian princes.

08:56

Speaker A

conquered by the Mongols before this—by Genghis Khan and then his sons and grandsons—ended up under direct rule.

09:11

Speaker A

Uh-huh. And so, for some time, the situation seemed to be such that there was no Orthodox Greek Tsar in Tsargrad. Well, there was the Empire of Nicaea, which later, uh, in 1261, reclaimed Constantinople, but it was not regarded

09:33

Speaker A

And these fears that direct occupation and direct rule by Horde administrators would be established in Russian cities, these fears lived on for a very long time, even in the 14th and 15th centuries.

09:56

Speaker A

time, and the title of Tsar was transferred to their rulers. Initially, they primarily called the Mongol emperor who sat in Karakorum, in Mongolia, that way. But somewhere from the 1260s, they began calling the Khan of the Horde "Tsar." And this

10:17

Speaker A

And the fact that this form of indirect rule was established, while preserving local princes, was apparently perceived as the lesser of two evils compared to possible direct rule by the Horde administration in Russian lands.

10:34

Speaker A

sense of being non-Christian. Uh, but nevertheless, he is a Tsar, and, uh, therefore, one should obey him . This concept had a very serious impact on how relations between Russian lands and the Horde developed, because overcoming this notion of the

10:57

Speaker A

Uh-huh. So, there are two important points here, yes. First, when we look at this process, at this phenomenon, we must not forget that we were just a part of a global, large-scale phenomenon that engulfed all of Eurasia—I mean the Mongol conquests and the

11:16

Speaker A

the idea that this conquest was retribution for sins. Tell us about that. As far as I understand, it was practically the main motif of intellectual life in the 14th century.

11:28

Speaker A

later Mongol Empire, which broke up into separate parts. And second, we must not forget that our case is, let's say, not the harshest, so to speak, and in principle we had, well, more freedom, shall we say. So we had a softer,

11:53

Speaker A

another aspect to this, again, taken from examples in the Holy Scripture. They cited facts of such subordination, of slavery, as it was called then, or " rabota"—meaning slavery—as punishment for sins. But they also showed that this phenomenon was

12:17

Speaker A

indirect approach, yes, that was the case in many countries. In the Far East, there's Korea and Vietnam; in the Middle East, if Iran was directly subjugated, then the Turkish states, the Georgian Kingdom, and Cilician Armenia were in a

12:33

Speaker A

Uh-huh. Ah, I see. How was this structure organized after the Batu invasion? How were these relationships formed? Prince, Grand Prince, Tsar.

12:46

Speaker A

similar state of dependency as the Russian lands.

13:06

Speaker A

had to be renewed if the Khan changed. Uh-huh. Princes had to travel to the Horde and receive new yarlyks. And naturally, after the death of any given prince, his successor had to obtain a yarlyk. The second is the tribute.

13:25

Speaker A

Ah, I see. To understand how it all developed, we first need to figure out the starting point, what we had by around 1240, at the time of Batu's campaigns. What was our own

13:44

Speaker A

, was the obligation to provide military aid to the Khans in their campaigns. Moreover, this manifested to varying degrees in different lands. This form was most active in relation to Galicia-Volhynia, that is, Southwestern Rus'.

14:05

Speaker A

administrative system? We had the famous feudal fragmentation, yes, the principalities. How was all that structured? How did they interact with each other?

14:12

Speaker A

Uh-huh. And how did this system work? Was it mostly the Grand Prince who communicated with the Khan, as the chief administrator, or could other princes go over his head to negotiate things? something against him, maybe even ask to complain about him, because

14:30

Speaker A

Uh, yes, there were more than a dozen lands, as they were called back then, not principalities, but specifically lands. Most of them were ruled by specific branches of the Rurikid princely dynasty, but there were lands with a different status. This is, first

14:38

Speaker A

Yes, the main counterparty, so to speak , was, of course, the Grand Prince, because it was his duty to send tribute to the Horde. Well, it must be said that we are currently talking about North-Eastern Rus, the region where the

14:54

Speaker A

and foremost, the Kievan land. Kiev retained the significance of the nominal capital of Rus' right up until the Batu invasion, and even for some time after. And there was a struggle for Kiev between the princes from the strongest lands. By the way, this

15:04

Speaker A

He did it more often than other princes , and he also had to travel to the Horde. But nevertheless, collisions of various kinds arose quite constantly.

15:15

Speaker A

capital status of Kiev was also recognized by the conquerors. And in the Kievan land, the most rigid form of dependency was established. A population census was conducted there, the entire male population was registered and taxed. In other lands,

15:38

Speaker A

Princedom, well, actually, his entire reign was a struggle, sometimes subsiding, sometimes intensifying, with his brother Andrei Alexandrovich. And here the princes took advantage of the fact that, at the end of the 13th century, in the 1280s and 90s, the

15:57

Speaker A

there were somewhat milder forms of exercising power.

16:11

Speaker A

This was one of the representatives of the ruling clan, a descendant of Jochi, the son of Genghis Khan, who governed this territory. And so, Andrei Alexandrovich appealed to and used the help of the Khan who sat in Sarai on

16:26

Speaker A

Uh-huh. And then, let's say, this whole structure accepted the Horde as its suzerain, or rather the Khan of the Horde, without any particular, so to speak, legal issues. I think that to

16:34

Speaker A

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. So the intra-Horde struggle was also extrapolated onto the struggle between the Russian princes.

16:42

Speaker A

understand why this happened, we need to figure out how the world was perceived in general, including by our princes.

16:58

Speaker A

say, against someone who had usurped power in the Horde at that moment. Well , there was no attempt to overthrow the Tsar. In the, uh, not the thirteenth, but in the fourteenth. No, of course not. In the 13th century, one cannot say that they

17:12

Speaker A

Right. And talk about the Byzantine Empire, which at that time was having quite a large number of problems. Please, tell us about that.

17:27

Speaker A

the Horde. Then this split disappears, and unity in the Horde is restored by the turn of the 14th century. And once again, there is no struggle for complete liberation from the power of the Horde Tsar. Sometimes you might

17:42

Speaker A

Uh, yes, if we talk about the, uh, situation in Europe, uh, on the whole, then the Russian lands were effectively independent states. Well, a certain preeminence of the Kievan prince was recognized. But, in fact, large lands, such as Chernigov, Suzdal,

17:59

Speaker A

but they could resist a specific khan's will if that will was in favor of their opponent.

18:06

Speaker A

North-Eastern Rus, Smolensk, Volhynia, and others, were effectively independent states. But there was a notion of, uh, the existence of a power of a higher order than the power of Russian princes, of any Russian prince—the power of the Byzantine Emperor.

18:26

Speaker A

residents by soldiers from the detachment of a Horde envoy, who was in Tver at that time. And later, in the second half of the 14th century, a different situation arose when a feud began in the Horde and actual power

18:43

Speaker A

In Rus, he was called "Caesar" or "Tsar" for short. And, uh, although there was no political dependence on Byzantium, there was a dependence in church terms, since the Russian Metropolitanate was part of the Patriarchate of Constantinople. But

18:57

Speaker A

But look, before we get to that point, I think it's important to talk about this as well. According to our school curriculum, it seems that the entire 14th century, the main content of this large episode, is actually the struggle

19:09

Speaker A

, uh, on a global scale, so to speak, the Greek Tsar, as he was called in Rus, was considered a ruler of a higher rank than any of the Russian princes.

19:24

Speaker A

of lands," so to speak, between Moscow, Tver, and who else might have been participating there.

19:30

Speaker A

But the Batu conquest happened during a period when Constantinople, "Tsargrad" in Russian, that is, the city of the Tsar, the emperor, was under the rule of Western Crusaders.

19:48

Speaker A

North-Eastern Rus' was the struggle for the grand reign. That is, there were more than a dozen principalities in North-Eastern Rus 'with their own dynasties. And there was a metropolitan , so to speak, reign. That is Vladimir.

20:04

Speaker A

Uh-huh. And so, for some time, the situation seemed to be such that there was no Orthodox Greek Tsar in Tsargrad. Well, there was the Empire of Nicaea, which later, uh, in 1261, reclaimed Constantinople, but it was not regarded

20:12

Speaker A

Uh-huh. But the Khan could transfer this reign, the Vladimir throne, to a representative of another principality.

20:21

Speaker A

in Rus as a full replacement for the Emperor of Constantinople. And it so happened that this new political entity, the Mongol Empire, and then the Horde, took the place of the "Tsardom" in the worldview of the people of that

20:25

Speaker A

It was like company housing, right? You could say that. There is what you get from your parents , and there is what is granted to you for use. Yes. And, of course, first and foremost, the Moscow and Tver princes,

20:37

Speaker A

time, and the title of Tsar was transferred to their rulers. Initially, they primarily called the Mongol emperor who sat in Karakorum, in Mongolia, that way. But somewhere from the 1260s, they began calling the Khan of the Horde "Tsar." And this

20:53

Speaker A

same princes for long, so that none of their subordinate rulers would become overly powerful. In the second half of the 14th century, quite decisive changes occur here, namely the consolidation of the Grand Duchy specifically with the Moscow princes.

21:21

Speaker A

perception played its own specific role, because a Tsar is a ruler of higher rank than princes, and, accordingly, his power began to be perceived as legitimate to some extent.

21:36

Speaker A

Duchy for nearly 30 years in total, but that did not mean it was permanently attached to the Moscow princes. And in 1360 year, just when infighting began in the Horde, the then-khan transferred the Grand Duchy to the Prince of Suzdal

21:53

Speaker A

Uh-huh. Even thoug

22:10

Speaker A

some kind of unification of all of Russia. Simply taking advantage of the situation and their power, princes— not only from Moscow, but others in similar situations—sought to expand their sphere of influence. Uhh. For 2 years, this situation where the Moscow

22:29

Speaker A

princes were deprived of the Grand Duchy continued. Then, in 1362, it returned by a khan's yarlyk from a different khan who had come to power by that time, to the Moscow prince, Dmitry Ivanovich, who was still quite young

22:48

Speaker A

then. And, in fact, the entire activity of Dmitry, later nicknamed Donskoy, had as its main goal not liberation from the supreme power of the Horde khan, but rather the consolidation of the Grand Duchy of Vladimir and, accordingly, the

23:18

Speaker A

territory that belonged to it, with the Moscow princes, ensuring it was recognized by all neighbors, including, of course, the Horde. So, for this consolidation to occur, it was necessary that the ruler of the Horde acknowledge it?

23:37

Speaker A

Well, yes, it was the supreme authority that had to, yes, possibly. And it seems to me that this is actually one of those important moments that, as they say, the Horde missed, because they allowed one of the principalities

23:50

Speaker A

to strengthen and a center of power to emerge, around which everything began to gather. And it was important that they essentially stopped supporting this fragmentation, so to speak.

24:00

Speaker A

Yes, in general, this policy of checks and balances, so to say, which was conducted by the Horde, failed. Moscow had already strengthened sufficiently by 1360 to prevent this change in the political situation in favor of other princes. And, of course, the fact that

24:25

Speaker A

infighting began in the Horde at that time played a role. The sixties, in particular, saw it happening very actively. And Mamai attempted to take the grand principality away from the Moscow prince. He transferred the yarlyk to the Prince of Tver twice, but

24:46

Speaker A

nothing came of it. In the end, Moscow simply used military force to compel the Prince of Tver to renounce the grand principality.

24:55

Speaker A

Excellent. And so, we have arrived at one of the key moments of this history.

24:59

Speaker A

This is the program "Homeland of the Elephants." We will return after the news. The program "Homeland of the Elephants." Things that scientists usually don't talk about because they aren't asked.

25:15

Speaker A

Good morning once again. This is the program "Homeland of the Elephants." My name is Mikhail Rodin. Our guest today is Anton Anatolyevich Gorsky. We are talking about the relationship between Rus' and the Horde. We have reached an important moment, which is also often

25:27

Speaker A

misunderstood, by the way. We will talk about the difficult relationship. Between Dmitry Ivanovich Donskoy and Mamai. What happened between them, and why did Dmitry Ivanovich dare, let's say, to raise his hand against Mamai?

25:46

Speaker A

Tell us about that. Well, initially, the relations were quite stable, and Mamai, or rather the khan in whose name Mamai was actually ruling, issued Dmitry a yarlyk for the grand principality. But then, Dmitry's policy was aimed at ensuring that

26:09

Speaker A

neighbors and neighboring state entities recognized that the grand principality belonged to the Moscow family as an "otchina," that is, a hereditary domain. He secured recognition of this from the Suzdal-Nizhny Novgorod prince, with whom he had first competed for the

26:29

Speaker A

grand principality, and from the Grand Duke of Lithuania, Algirdas, although Algirdas initially supported the Prince of Tver in the struggle against Dmitry Ivanovich. But in 1372, Algirdas recognized—and this was enshrined in a treaty—that the Grand Principality was the hereditary domain of Dmitry

26:50

Speaker A

Ivanovich. But the main recognition had to be obtained from the ruler of the Horde. And Mamai did not want to give up this lever of influence over Rus ', the possibility of transferring the grand principality to any of the

27:08

Speaker A

strongest princes. And as a result, the situation escalated from 1374 into, in effect, a war against the Horde led by Mamai. It must be said that the possibility of waging such a war, at times quite actively, was largely

27:30

Speaker A

conditioned, of course, by the fact that Mamai's power was regarded as illegitimate. There is direct evidence that the situation in the Horde, where it was not a tsar ruling but Prince Mamai—and his status in Russian was specifically "Prince of the Horde"—

27:50

Speaker A

was regarded as abnormal and illegitimate. So, simply put, he was a usurper, right ? He was an upstart who came to power and changed khans on his own behalf as he pleased. And that didn't please the Rus '.

28:04

Speaker A

Yes. Well, formally there was always a khan in whose name he ruled, but in practice, of course, it was a usurpation of power. They realized this in Rus '. And accordingly, the struggle against Mamai was a struggle against an

28:20

Speaker A

equal. So, the Grand Prince and the Chief Emir, the chief prince of the Horde, were actually, by status, equal.

28:30

Speaker A

And this six-year war ended with the Battle of Kulikovo, which took place on the territory of the Horde. Meaning, for the first time, Russian troops actually entered the territory of the Horde, and Mamai's Horde was defeated.

28:50

Speaker A

But one of the results—unintentional, of course—of this victory was the restoration of the Horde's unity.

28:57

Speaker A

Before that, the Horde was split. In the western part, west of the Volga, Mamai ruled, while in the east, from the Volga to the Irtysh, it was different. There was a struggle between various claimants to the khan's throne.

29:13

Speaker A

Throughout the seventies, rulers kept changing rapidly. The victory over Mamai at Kulikovo Field also led to Tokhtamysh uniting both parts of the Horde under his rule.

29:29

Speaker A

So, Dmitry Ivanovich, roughly speaking, helped Tokhtamysh; yes, he weakened Tokhtamysh's main opponent. Yes. Well, sometimes it’s even suggested that perhaps there were some allied relations between Dmitry and Tokhtamysh, but there is no direct evidence of this. Most likely, it was

29:46

Speaker A

simply an unintentional result of this victory. And Tokhtamysh was, in fact, a legitimate ruler.

29:52

Speaker A

Tokhtamysh was a descendant of Genghis Khan, so naturally, he was a legitimate ruler. And as soon as he finished crushing Mamai and brought the whole Horde under his control, his supremacy was recognized; an embassy was immediately sent, acknowledging his

30:12

Speaker A

royal dignity and power over the Horde. But the payment of tribute, which had ceased in 1374, was not something Dmitry was in a hurry to resume. And as a result, in 1382, Tokhtamysh launched his campaign against the Moscow

30:35

Speaker A

principality. However, it must be said that the outcomes of this campaign are usually somewhat exaggerated. People speak of a total defeat for Dmitry Donskoy. That was not exactly the case.

30:52

Speaker A

Tokhtamysh, of course, took Moscow—by deception, admittedly, not by storm— meaning he devastated the enemy's capital. In general, one could consider it a victory in the campaign, but he did not land a decisive blow. There was no such general battle where Tokhtamysh

31:12

Speaker A

had secured a victory. He left the borders of Rus' quite quickly. And what’s more, a state of war continued for some time. Dmitry devastated the Ryazan lands; Prince Oleg, fearing the ruin of his territory, had actually sided with Tokhtamysh during his

31:32

Speaker A

campaign and pointed out the fords on the Oka. And peace was concluded only in 1383. Moreover, Tokhtamysh was the one who sent an envoy first, attempting reconciliation as early as the end of 1382. And in the spring of 1383, an

31:55

Speaker A

embassy headed by Dmitry's eldest son, Vasily, went to the Horde and concluded a peace agreement. Under it, Tokhtamysh left the Grand Duchy to Dmitry and granted him the yarlyk for it. Although the Prince of Tver, in this situation,

32:14

Speaker A

immediately went to the Horde and, contrary to the agreement previously concluded with Moscow, began to claim the Grand Principality once again. But his claims were not supported. The Grand Principality remained with Dmitry . Moreover, it was precisely then that

32:30

Speaker A

Tokhtamysh agreed that the Grand Principality would become an "otchina," that is, the hereditary possession of the Moscow princes. So, what Dmitry had been striving for was achieved. Of course, in exchange for the resumption of tribute payments and even the

32:47

Speaker A

payment of the debt that had accumulated over decades. Meaning that Dmitry Donskoy still recognized the Khan of the Horde as his suzerain and, in fact, sought his supreme consent for this right to be......

33:03

Speaker A

the hereditary ruler, yes, of the Grand Principality. But this moment is important to me here. Is that clear? He fought against Mamai. Mamai was a prince of the same status, right, in the Horde. But then Tokhtamysh appeared . And he continued not to pay tribute,

33:18

Speaker A

and he continued military actions against him. So, here he is indeed fighting against his own suzerain. How is that even possible?

33:25

Speaker A

Well, Dmitry did not initiate the military actions first. He seemingly had the idea, on the wave of success in the struggle against Mamai, that one could formally recognize authority while not paying tribute. Also, it wasn't yet known how events in the

33:46

Speaker A

Horde would unfold. Tokhtamysh had only just seized power there. Perhaps this chaos and strife in the Horde would continue. After all, no one knew that Tokhtamysh would rule the Horde alone for about a decade and a half. And that

34:06

Speaker A

there would be no other contenders. So, a certain wait-and-see position was adopted. But the initiator of the military actions was, of course, Tokhtamysh. Resistance was indeed offered to him, but, uh, there's an important point here. Dmitry did not

34:27

Speaker A

stay to be besieged in Moscow; he left for Kostroma. Moreover, this was not a flight. It is a quite common occurrence for the Middle Ages, not just in Russia , when a supreme ruler seeks not to be besieged—as it is a passive way of

34:44

Speaker A

conducting military actions—but to leave if a city siege is inevitable and to influence events from the outside.

34:52

Speaker A

But it is remarkable how a contemporary chronicler explained this departure, justifying it by saying that the Grand Prince, learning that the Tsar himself was coming against him with all his might, did not engage in battle and did not raise his hand against the Tsar.

35:07

Speaker A

So, it is precisely highlighted, yes, that he...... yes, that the Tsar himself came for the first time. And there had been no such case before where the Khan himself marched on Moscow, and even on other Russian lands, such a thing had not

35:19

Speaker A

happened. So, since the Tsar himself went, it seems like there should have been very active resistance against him . Uh, that is incorrect. Such a perception existed.

35:31

Speaker A

So, it turns out that Dmitry Donskoy didn't start a rebellion; he carefully tested the boundaries of what was possible, right, what was permissible.

35:39

Speaker A

As a result, yes. Good. What happened during the next 100 years? You see, there is a span of about 100 years after the Battle of Kulikovo. Yes. Well, from 1383, no one questioned the Grand Prince status of the Moscow princes anymore. This meant

36:00

Speaker A

they began passing it down as an inheritance in their wills. Starting with Dmitry Donskoy, the Grand Principality, which had not been done before. In effect, this meant that the territories of the Moscow Principality and the Grand Principality of Vladimir

36:14

Speaker A

merged. This is the majority of North-Eastern Rus '. And this, in general, created the foundation for the territory of the future Russian state.

36:22

Speaker A

This is a kind of territorial core. In relations with the Horde, the situation at the turn of the 14th and 15th centuries became similar to what it was under Mamai, because at that time, power in the Horde was effectively held

36:42

Speaker A

for a total of about 20 years, with small breaks. By Edigu, who was also, like Mamai, not a representative of the Genghisid line, that is, he was a " Horde prince" by Russian terminology.

36:59

Speaker A

And during the period when Edigu was in power, yes, it was not paid. Uh-huh.

37:05

Speaker A

Yes. There was no active resistance here. There was no formal refusal to recognize the authority of the Horde Tsar at all. Well, as long as the situation is, from the perspective of people at that time, illegitimate— ruled not by a legal Tsar but by a

37:25

Speaker A

temporary ruler—you could effectively ignore tributary relations. As a result , there was Edigu's campaign against Moscow in 1408, when it hadn't been paid for 13 years, right? Afterwards, however, although Moscow was not taken, a large territory was devastated, more

37:45

Speaker A

than Tokhtamysh had devastated in his time. Nevertheless, the state of war continued as long as Edigu was in power , and tribute was not paid. As soon as Edigu was overthrown, tributary relations were resumed, and without any pressure from the Horde. Moreover, in

38:10

Speaker A

1431, Vasily Vasilyevich, Vasily II, as he is usually called, and his rival for the Grand Principality, his uncle Yuri Dmitrievich, went to the Horde on their own initiative. To the khan at the time , so that he could resolve their

38:27

Speaker A

dispute over the Grand Principality. That is, the Tsar, if he actually ruled in the Horde, continued to be considered the legitimate suzerain of the Moscow Grand Prince.

38:41

Speaker A

The situation began to change in the middle of the 15th century. Well, a number of factors were at play here.

38:49

Speaker A

Firstly, this is, of course, the strengthening of the Grand Principality of Moscow, prepared by the predecessors of Vasily II. Secondly, it was the de facto collapse of the Horde. Uh-huh.

39:08

Speaker A

It breaks up into several state entities. That is the Crimean Khanate, Kazan Khanate, a bit later the Astrakhan Khanate, and the Nogai Horde.

39:19

Speaker A

There remained, however, a sort of central state entity. In Rus', it was called the Great Horde, meaning the main one among the Hordes. That is, its Khans, the Khans of the Great Horde, were considered in Moscow to be the

39:37

Speaker A

supreme rulers and were paid tribute. But nevertheless, it was no longer the former unified Horde. Another factor appeared, connected to the fact that in 1453 the Byzantine Empire ceased to exist, meaning the Greek kingdom, the Orthodox kingdom, whose ruler was

40:07

Speaker A

recognized in Rus 'as the true king, that is, a king who professed Orthodoxy . And after that, it began to gradually , slowly, but surely make its way. The idea that the royal dignity of the fallen Byzantium, the Greek kingdom as

40:31

Speaker A

it was called in Rus', passes to the Moscow Grand Princes. Vasily II is already referred to several times as tsar in different contexts and literary works. And a tsar is an independent ruler.

40:54

Speaker A

A tsar cannot be subordinate to some other tsar. And thus, the question of whether it was necessary to acquire sovereignty, in modern terms, the question of a possible refusal to recognize the authority of the Horde's tsar, inevitably had to arise in this

41:18

Speaker A

situation. And here, by the way, for the first time, I think the thought crossed my mind that this very phrase, "Orthodox Tsar," apparently appeared precisely then as a contrast, right?

41:30

Speaker A

There was an Orthodox tsar in Byzantium before, and there was a tsar, how was he, incorrectly, how was it, well, he was called lawless in various ways, meaning not knowing the true law of faith, yes, Christian and impious. That's it,

41:44

Speaker A

impious, yes, that's the word I was trying to recall. So, the tsar who sits in the Horde, and then suddenly our man becomes, or tries to become, an Orthodox tsar, right. Is this when the "Moscow-Third Rome" concept emerged?

41:57

Speaker A

Yes. Yes. Well, a Christian tsar, that is what it was called at that time.

42:03

Speaker A

Uh. And the events connected with the liquidation of dependence on the Horde took place in the seventies, during the reign of Ivan Vasilyevich. Ivan III, as he is commonly called now. Well, it is usually considered that 1480, the stand

42:23

Speaker A

on the Ugra River, was the fall of the yoke. But in reality, there was a series of events in the seventies, in which there were two key points. The first is 1472. That was when Akhmat, Khan of the Great Horde, made his first

42:45

Speaker A

, unsuccessful campaign against Moscow. And it was after this event that Ivan III stopped paying tribute.

42:54

Speaker A

Mm-hmm. So, in principle, the dependency relationship was terminated in 1472. And this was done consciously against a legitimate ruler. It was created against a legitimate ruler, as his campaign was apparently interpreted as an unjust act, having, therefore, no grounds for

43:18

Speaker A

its commission. And in 1474, at the very beginning, for the first time in an official document, in an international treaty, the Moscow Grand Prince is referred to as Tsar. This is a treaty that Ivan III concluded on behalf of Novgorod and Pskov with the

43:37

Speaker A

Bishop of Dorpat, a state in the territory of Livonia. Subsequently, both sides, the Great Horde and Moscow, prepared for a new clash, since tribute was not being paid. In 1476, Akhmat demanded that Ivan III appear before him in the Horde. Moreover, such a

44:02

Speaker A

demand had not been made by khans for almost 100 years prior. Ivan III did not go, and it became clear that a clash was inevitable. In 1480, the Khan , having formed an alliance with the King of Poland and Grand Duke of

44:21

Speaker A

Lithuania Casimir IV, made this campaign, and what we now call the Stand on the Ugra took place for 2 months, when the troops stood against each other on the river that separated Moscow's possessions from the Lithuanian possessions of Casimir IV.

44:40

Speaker A

And after Akhmat's retreat at the end of 1480, finally, this attempt to restore power over Moscow, which Akhmat had undertaken, it failed. Soon he was killed as a result of an attack by Siberian and Nogai Tatars. And after

45:03

Speaker A

that, the horde of his children no longer laid claim to supreme power over the Muscovite state.

45:11

Speaker A

So it turns out that many factors coincided. First, the very state whose sovereign ruler the Grand Princes recognized, it essentially just disintegrated, physically fell apart into many different ones. And the Byzantine Empire perished, and, accordingly, someone had to take upon

45:32

Speaker A

themselves the title of Christian Tsar. And it was logical that it was the Moscow Prince who took this title upon himself. And, well, plus the strengthening of the Moscow Principality itself also played a role.

45:45

Speaker A

It was already such a large, strong, strong state. How did events develop further? Ivan III. That's it. There was a clear turning point in that year 1480 , when he finally realized himself, began to style himself as Tsar in all

46:00

Speaker A

documents and not recognize the sovereignty. Or were there still some reminiscences, some manifestations of this dependency?

46:07

Speaker A

No, well, Ivan III did not start calling himself Tsar in all documents. In general, this mastery of the idea of the Tsarist title for Moscow rulers went a long way, ending in 1547 with the coronation of Ivan IV, grandson of

46:26

Speaker A

Ivan III. But independence was undoubtedly established and realized from that time on. Another thing is that as long as the Great Horde, this horde of Ahmad’s children, existed as some kind of political entity, it was, uh, possible to assume that it could make

46:49

Speaker A

claims to supreme power in case it suddenly became strong again, which had happened before; the Horde would weaken , then strengthen, if it strengthened again, it could make those claims. Moreover, there was the year 1500, when, uh, a war was going on

47:07

Speaker A

; on one side, Moscow and the Crimean Khanate, and on the other, the Great Horde and the Grand Duchy of Lithuania.

47:17

Speaker A

And in that situation, yes, the Livonian Order was also at war with Russia at that time. And then Ivan III sent tribute to Ahmad's son and even expressed a formal recognition of dependency. But that was just a political game, because at the same

47:37

Speaker A

time, the ambassador to Crimea had to stir up the Crimean Khan Mengli Giray to campaign against the Great Horde to finish it off for good. And Mengli Giray did exactly that in the summer of 1502. So, this state entity ceased to

47:51

Speaker A

exist. And from that time on, the Crimean Khanate became the main heir to the Horde.

47:56

Speaker A

Mhm. And at what moment did this change of attitude happen, then? I mean, everything we’re talking about for, what, two and a half centuries, it turns out, well, there was such a normal, right, attitude. We are Grand Princes, vassals of the Tatar Tsar. At

48:11

Speaker A

what point, when the Moscow princes became Tsars themselves, at what point did the attitude toward this dependency change to something negative, to a " yoke," essentially, to pressure, and so on? Well, this attitude takes shape precisely during the period when the

48:34

Speaker A

very idea of the possibility of denying the power of the Horde Tsar began to function. For instance, uh, during the events on the Ugra, uh, Archbishop Vassian, the Archbishop of Rostov, wrote a message to Ivan III, where he

48:55

Speaker A

declares the entire period of over 200 years of power illegitimate. How does he interpret that? That Batu, the conqueror of Rus ', was not of royal blood, in fact.

49:08

Speaker A

Mhm. So, it means he obtained power over Rus' illegally. Accordingly, his descendants, including Ahmad, uh, are not real Tsars. And who is the real Tsar? You, the Christian Tsar Ivan Vasilievich.

49:23

Speaker A

There. Well, and further, naturally, in the subsequent time, this period is indeed regarded as exactly, uh, a period of well, there were different terms there. The term "yoke" itself is established quite late, only in the 16th century. At first, it was used in

49:45

Speaker A

Poland from the end of the 15th century in relation to, uh, the dependency of Rus 'on the Horde. But there were others, say, in the Kazan History of the 16th century. It was called " Yermo-Busurmanskoye," that's what it

49:58

Speaker A

was called. And so, accordingly, uh Uh, the events of the late 15th century were regarded as liberation from that yoke.

50:05

Speaker A

Thank you very much. I think we've figured it out. And we have fully examined the whole history of relations between Rus and the Horde. Uh, thank you very much. A reminder that our guest today was Anton Anatolyevich Gorsky, Doctor of Historical Sciences.

50:18

Speaker A

We were talking about Rus and the Horde . This was the program "Homeland of Elephants." My name is Mikhail Rodin.

50:23

Speaker A

See you next Saturday. Bye. M.

Topics: Rus Golden Horde Mongol Empire Mongol Conquests Russian History Anton Gorsky Medieval Eurasia Indirect Rule Battle of Kulikovo Byzantine Empire

Study this video

- [Flashcards from this video](https://sozai.app/tools/ai-flashcard-generator/?from=transcript&id=76333)
- [Quiz on this video](https://sozai.app/tools/quiz-generator/?from=transcript&id=76333)

Free, made by AI from this transcript. No signup.


---
This is the markdown twin of https://sozai.app/transcript/rus-horde-anton-gorsky-roddina-slonov-61/ — the same content, without the markup.
Published by SozAI (https://sozai.app). Reuse and quotation are allowed with attribution and a link back.
Machine-readable index: https://sozai.app/llms.txt · data API: https://sozai.app/api/