**Аптека зарабатывает не на вас. Она зарабатывает на производителе — Transcript & Summary | SozAI**
Source: https://sozai.app/transcript/pharmacy-earnings-manufacturer-profit/

Pharmaceutical consultant Pavel Lisovsky shares his journey into pharma, education insights, and industry dynamics in this podcast episode.

## Key Takeaways

- Pharmaceutical careers can evolve from diverse interests including medicine, chemistry, and economics.
- Pharmaceutical education requires reform to include more critical thinking and humanities.
- Pharmacies earn primarily from manufacturers, not directly from customers.
- Training and customer relationship management are crucial for success in pharma retail.
- Comparative market analysis helps understand global pharmaceutical retail dynamics.

## What the video covers

- Pavel Lisovsky discusses his childhood ambition to be a doctor and how he transitioned into pharmaceutical consulting.
- He shares his educational background, including his time at the Chemical Pharmaceutical Academy and interest in chemistry and economics.
- Lisovsky reflects on the quality and relevance of pharmaceutical education and suggests more focus on philosophy and humanities.
- He talks about his early consulting projects based on his PhD thesis linking economics and the pharmaceutical market.
- The conversation covers the evolution of pharmacy retail and distribution in Russia during the 2000s and 2010s.
- Lisovsky comments on the financial dynamics between manufacturers, pharmacies, and advertising costs.
- He compares the Russian pharmaceutical market with similar markets like Brazil and Argentina.
- The importance of training medical representatives and maintaining customer relationships is highlighted.
- Challenges in the pharmacy sector such as laziness, greed, and inefficiencies are discussed.
- Lisovsky emphasizes the value of customer loyalty and the need for better pharmacy service standards.

## Chapters

1. 00:00 Introduction and Guest Background
2. 05:37 Pharmaceutical Education and Personal Reflections
3. 11:55 Early Career and Consulting Projects
4. 17:23 Teaching and Academic Experiences
5. 23:11 Pharmacy Retail and Distribution in 2000s-2010s
6. 29:06 Pharmaceutical Market Dynamics and Manufacturer Relations
7. 36:12 Training Medical Representatives and Customer Relations
8. 38:30 Challenges in Pharmacy Sector and Market Comparisons
9. 46:40 Customer Loyalty and Service Quality
10. 53:00 Closing Thoughts and Personal Insights

Answers

## Questions about this video

Why did Pavel Lisovsky choose a career in pharmaceutical consulting?

Pavel initially wanted to be a doctor but realized his personality was better suited for pharmaceutical chemistry and economics, leading him to pharmaceutical consulting.

What changes does Pavel suggest for pharmaceutical education?

He advocates for more philosophy and humanities in the curriculum to improve critical thinking and logic, and reducing outdated subjects.

How do pharmacies make money according to Pavel Lisovsky?

Pharmacies primarily earn money from manufacturers rather than directly from customers, with advertising and pricing strategies playing a key role.

## Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown

00:00

Speaker A

Hello everyone, friends. Today you're listening to the "From Reagent to Advertising" podcast. I’m your host, Vasily Vikhrov.

00:06

Speaker A

I am Ruslan Koronsky. And our guest today is Pavel Lisovsky. As always, he is elegant, a man who, you could say, forced me to wear a shirt today, which doesn't happen often. Hello, Pavel.

00:17

Speaker A

Hello to everyone, friends. Yes, thank you for coming. Uh, we definitely have an interesting topic.

00:25

Speaker A

We’ve prepared some of the most relevant questions, likely ones that nobody has really asked you before. For instance, we’re curious about your background, because everyone knows you as a super expert in pharmaceutical consulting for retail, but not everyone

00:43

Speaker A

understands your journey to get there. So today, we’ll try to reveal a bit more about you, like a kind of hero's journey. So, tell us how you came to pharma, why pharma, where you studied, who you remember from your classmates,

01:01

Speaker A

and how you imagine yourself as a child, or what you would say to yourself back then?

01:09

Speaker A

Who are you, who are you, Mr. Lisovsky? Yes. How did you end up in pharma?

01:14

Speaker A

I came to pharma because as a child I wanted to be a doctor, a traumatologist. Well, I was a boy, I had many injuries, but it was interesting.

01:20

Speaker A

Really interesting. I wasn't afraid of blood back then. By the way, it’s not as pleasant for me to look at blood now, probably because I have more responsibility. And, well, I understood perfectly well that I would never be

01:33

Speaker A

able to make it as a doctor, and I didn't need to, because my personality type is different; for things requiring extreme attention to detail, I might overlook something. Although, yes, I have always had the utmost respect for the surgeon profession. My best friend

01:49

Speaker A

is a surgeon, so, well, there you go. Uh, so, what’s the closest thing to medicine? Well, of course, pills, pharmacy, and so on.

01:57

Speaker A

Plus, I was absolutely in love with chemistry. I just happened to have a very good teacher. For me, organic chemistry was like playing with LEGO. I mean, when you invent things there, I’d still be doing it even now. I was

02:07

Speaker A

always happy with that. Who could have thought that in a pharmaceutical university, there is actually only a little bit of organic chemistry. There are all sorts of incomprehensible subjects. Well, you might not know, but all the pharmacists watching now are

02:18

Speaker A

like: "Damn, yeah, it's all clear." My grades were average; there wasn't really any logic involved, just rote memorization, and that’s completely uninteresting.

02:26

Speaker A

And so, well, I actually enrolled in the Chemical Pharmaceutical Academy back then, it was a private university, and I studied there from start to finish. I probably can't say anything about my classmates there. I'll talk about my high school classmates instead

02:37

Speaker A

. Pavel Durov was in a parallel class of mine. Yes, I studied at that school affiliated with SPbU. I didn't go to SPbU because I wanted to go to the Chemical Pharmaceutical Academy, which had this interesting feature. We had

02:48

Speaker A

the same teachers. I read the book about Durov and remember how Pavel Durov spoke about his biology teacher.

02:54

Speaker A

He gave him certain concepts, laid the foundation for how to create things. A chemistry and biology class. Well, that's exactly what it was.

03:02

Speaker A

Many people mention it, so it’s interesting. Interesting. Nikolai, the brother who actually built the architecture with his own hands, studied there too.

03:09

Speaker A

I know. Well, I don't really know. I mean, we didn't really cross paths; you know how it is, parallel classes, but the school was truly such that I believe one year there was worth more than five years at a university.

03:20

Speaker A

It had such a great foundation where they really taught us how to think. Well, that's one of its features, I should probably tell you about it. For those of you with kids in Saint Petersburg, the best school is the SPbU

03:31

Speaker A

Academic Gymnasium, it still exists today. And I was completely amazed that they addressed me as "you" formally. I was like: "Wow, how is this possible?" I was just a student; nobody had ever raised their voice at me on principle.

03:43

Speaker A

Especially considering the school I was at before, where they used to yell at us. So that was a "wow" moment. Like, "Well, Pavel, you didn't learn the lesson today, did you?" And I’d be like, "Well, yes." Okay.

03:53

Speaker A

So, yeah. And that is probably one of the few periods in my life I’d like to return to; it’s basically the only period where it was actually interesting and very cool. So, there you go. Well, then there was the

04:06

Speaker A

Chemical Pharmaceutical Academy. After a school like that, it was, to put it mildly, not difficult.

04:11

Speaker A

Yeah. And by my second year, I was thinking, I need to do something, because what was I going to do with a pharmaceutical degree, and what came next wasn't quite clear. And I had always been interested in economics.

04:23

Speaker A

Actually, that's not quite right, I'm lying. I’ve always been interested in money. I’ve always loved money.

04:27

Speaker A

I’ve genuinely enjoyed counting it, saving it, moving things around. Just seeing how it all moves. I’ve always found that interesting. Naturally, I went to university, the Engineering and Economics University. It’s now part of St. Petersburg State University. And

04:41

Speaker A

right after finishing pharmacy school, I started working on my PhD thesis there. I mean, I had accumulated material and started working on it immediately. The material was, in fact, on the connection between economics and the pharmaceutical market. Actually, my

04:59

Speaker A

very first consulting projects were essentially based on my PhD thesis. So that’s the story.

05:07

Speaker A

And returning to your time at the Chemical Pharmaceutical Academy, during your final years, what would you wish for yourself or what period might you want to relive at that time?

05:21

Speaker A

I don’t want to relive anything. I’m a person who lives moving forward, looking back only occasionally.

05:27

Speaker A

Things used to be worse. In short, I’m the type who thinks that if it’s over, it’s over, what’s past is past. In university, I wouldn't want to spend time on anything other than the subjects that are truly interesting.

05:37

Speaker A

And for those subjects that are either unimportant or uninteresting, I’d just get a passing grade and be free. But I felt I had to get an A in everything. That’s why so much time was wasted senselessly, and so much

05:47

Speaker A

useless information was learned. I mean, I realize that quite clearly now. That’s a separate topic. I could further elaborate on the thesis that pharmaceutical education as a whole could use a bit of a reformat. Again, as you said, some subjects are just

06:03

Speaker A

atavisms that are no longer relevant. I’m just speaking plainly. There it is. But I’m interested in your opinion on what you would change if it were up to you. First and foremost, the first thought that comes to mind is

06:17

Speaker A

definitely a lot more philosophy and humanities, because—why, by the way, yes, because philosophy is how you learn to think correctly, to think logically; logic, pardon me, should simply be taught, and that should happen in school, but in university,

06:31

Speaker A

philosophy is a must. And I actually realized this only when I started taking my PhD qualifying exams, because you have to take philosophy for that.

06:39

Speaker A

And I dove in and thought, wow, this is actually interesting. Well, overall, the most important thing isn't the specific concept Nietzsche proposed, or that they all proposed some nonsense.

06:49

Speaker A

Actually, if you take all of them to the extreme, it turns into complete nonsense. But saying, here is a concept, here is a concept, here is a concept, let's see what we can choose from this, what the best parts are—well, it's

06:58

Speaker A

like, propose your own concept, but someone has already proposed your concept, and it didn't turn out very well. That is, that is interesting, really. And, generally speaking, we had a good teacher too. Uh, we had ethics there, and something else in the

07:09

Speaker A

humanities, for which, by the way, thanks. This is something that should have been given more time. By the way, I actually liked the bioethics course in Yes, it's fine, objectively fine, right? I mean, questions are posed there

07:19

Speaker A

that you have to answer. You see, because they aren't obvious, right? I mean, you have to answer them to move forward.

07:25

Speaker A

Well, there are quite a few situations, it seems to me, where you recall bioethics lessons regarding what exists . I don't even know how appropriate the recommendation will be. Have you read Arthur Hailey? "Strong Medicine" is his right?

07:37

Speaker A

No, no. I've read this author, but I've never even heard of this book. Oh man, I thought it was such a trivially real thing.

07:44

Speaker A

Thanks for the heads-up. I'll definitely look into it. Excellent. Anyway, alright. This will basically be the format of our conversation. In short, Arthur Hailey wrote very obscurely about a company's drug that conducts clinical trials. If anyone has , write what you've read, what you took

08:00

Speaker A

away from it. But personally, I was assigned, for this subject, for bioethics, to write some essays, to somehow set out my thoughts, to reflect on this topic. What do you think? I had to propose a few concepts on how I

08:15

Speaker A

would formulate it from a business perspective, as a patient, or as a doctor. From those three approaches.

08:22

Speaker A

Right. And here is a question. After you defended your dissertation, did you go for an MBA or was there some other period? No. I don't have an MBA. I am a teacher. That is a very, very interesting feature, yes. I mean, in

08:34

Speaker A

MBA programs, they definitely take professors and so on, right? I mean, a person with experience. Well, I was invited back then by PricewaterhouseCoopers, they had a school there. And yes, I completed a few courses. Then, when PricewaterhouseCoopers stopped its

08:48

Speaker A

operations in our country, that school ceased its activities, so that's how it went. After university, well, the classics: there was a pharmacy, pharmacy management, and, well, how could I skip being a medical rep?

09:00

Speaker A

Actually, it was a good time in general , yes, being a rep, and I worked in the marketing department of a pharma company, and there was something about public procurement, too. Well, I mean, I gained a certain amount of experience

09:12

Speaker A

there. Actually, I didn't just gain it; it happened in parallel with writing my dissertation, because for you, medical representation was a wonderful period while writing a dissertation. When you're writing a dissertation, that's it.

09:25

Speaker A

I had a lot of time, I had a job that involved traveling, and I listened to audiobooks and other materials accordingly. No, no, I worked normally, I met my targets, everything as it should be. And I found these little

09:35

Speaker A

tricks, where I, an ordinary medical rep, would go to the department—well, it wasn't a procurement department back then, it was districts and so on. In short, I didn't go to see doctors, there was no need. I went straight to

09:46

Speaker A

the top brass. And with the top brass, I just made deals about everything. And afterwards, I didn't even visit doctors , I mean, why would I? Because I had one boss at one of my jobs who used to

09:55

Speaker A

say, "Why go to doctors when you can go to the health department?"—yes, I worked in a region, not in Moscow. I just understood what the prescription patterns were for neurology, psychiatry , for gynecology, for example, urology, and so on.

10:08

Speaker A

And that's it. That's it. You solve issues wholesale right away. Yes. You solve the issue with a person wholesale. Good attitude generation, immediately and completely.

10:15

Speaker A

I heard two magic words. The first is consulting, the second is PwC. Well, accordingly, they are all nearby. And probably the main question regarding consulting in general. For us, at least , the picture I get is that consulting

10:28

Speaker A

is perceived very differently by different people and categories. On one hand, we have people, say, top management, who leave a large company and go into so-called "personal projects." Well, in essence, it's an ironic reference to the fact that they

10:44

Speaker A

are leaving for nowhere because something happened. But on the other hand, there is the Big Three, the Big Four, where there is adult consulting, where this whole history functions for some kind of success fee, huge million or billion-dollar contracts—long,

11:00

Speaker A

expensive, and for efficiency. Still, consulting for the most part, if we are talking about pharma, what is it about?

11:06

Speaker A

About those people who have gained some experience in code and are simply consulting, in essence, on some of their highly specialized points. Or is it still full-fledged consulting that aims, let's say, at this mature story of how everything is organized there in

11:21

Speaker A

general. I will briefly say first to whom I attribute myself and why, yes, it turned out this way. Then about this story, yes, how consulting is perceived . I initially came into consulting, and I wanted to do what I am doing. That is

11:34

Speaker A

, it was a conscious choice. Back in the day, I read a book there, either McKinsey Tools or McKinsey Methods, or I read both of them. Yes, a stunning book, good, I liked everything. And I'm thinking, I wish I worked at McKinsey.

11:44

Speaker A

I think then, wouldn't it be cool, right? Yes. No, well, because it's really a good school, objectively. I have met people on my path who worked at McKinsey. Indeed, these are smart people. That's it. McKinsey, I think, KPMG, and something else there. In

11:55

Speaker A

general, I was following this path. By the way, as one of my achievements, I remember, well, you know, there is such a dream, yes, here it is. And then, when I had a contract with KPMG, they brought me in as a specialist. In

12:05

Speaker A

essence, I led the entire project. That is, well, kind of on my own behalf, from the Lesovsky system, but this is what KPMG paid me for. So, I have this little contract in a frame, just because it's a "childhood dream" in

12:14

Speaker A

quotes. I mean, I think: "Wow, like an achievement, yeah, purely for myself." Even though, well, for no one else is it, well, so what, KPMG is KPMG, but I understand what it means to me.

12:23

Speaker A

And so, for me, it was a conscious choice. So we can even talk about this.

12:26

Speaker A

And as for people who worked somewhere, and then, well, I call this not a personal project, look at what they are called. Independent expert. I always add "independent expert" on whom nothing depends. Well, uh, this is a truly common story. Well, at some point

12:42

Speaker A

, I look at all this with irony, with a smirk, because these people do not possess the main thing, they do not possess, uh, a broad range of experience. That is, they worked in two or three companies and there they

12:55

Speaker A

believe that from a high platform they can declare how to work correctly, how things should be done, and so on.

13:00

Speaker A

That's a no. Well, there is a very simple question, actually. Which category do you belong to? Again, perhaps this has happened to you, right ? Meaning, a project with a company you were working for ended, and you now

13:09

Speaker A

call yourself an independent expert, right? I mean, I don't want to see anyone. Answer three questions honestly . So, the first question is, are your projects currently in demand, and do you have several projects? This is a fundamentally important question. And

13:25

Speaker A

the second question, if someone offered you a position no worse than the previous one, or better, would you accept it or not? And the third one, do you sell your services at a high price?

13:34

Speaker A

If your answers to these questions were , well, some yes and some no—I phrased that incorrectly. But the idea is, I've seen so many of these independent experts who later say, "I finished my project temporarily, and I was invited to join such-and-such

13:46

Speaker A

company." That’s it. Well, it’s all just until a good offer comes along, right? Yes, just until a good offer. Or , "I am an independent expert, and I am leading, uh, a very serious project right now." Okay, how many projects?

13:56

Speaker A

One project. You are not an independent expert; you are an outsourcer whose project will end, and then you’ll go looking for another. If you have three to five projects and you decline some of them for various reasons, that is a

14:07

Speaker A

foundation from which you can start the methodology of scaling. Of course, of course, of course. Well, do you have some, in a good sense of the word, know-how? Is this, essentially, what the last question will stem from? Are you prepared to

14:19

Speaker A

sell your services at a high price? Well, yes. Are they prepared to buy them at a high price? Yes.

14:23

Speaker A

Well, yes. But let's try looking at this from a different angle. If I’m looking for a consultant—specifically an independent expert—what should I look for to see if this person can help me solve this or that?

14:34

Speaker A

Well, that is actually the fundamental difference between big consulting firms and independent experts. You see, independent experts don’t take responsibility for the outcome. Let me clarify: they don’t answer for the result with their reputation. They have no reputation, I’m sorry. I mean, who

14:48

Speaker A

are you? You are independent. Your reputation is worth nothing. And, so, they answer neither with their reputation nor with any financial risks . So, you know, "Oh, you know, it didn’t work out, it just didn't click ." I had a model right from the start

15:01

Speaker A

because I wanted to sell at a high price. I said: "Guys," I said, "I'm responsible for everything, what does that mean? How much do your services cost?""You know," I said, "I'm ready to provide them to you absolutely for free

15:09

Speaker A

." There is one small nuance. Look, we're going to have growth. The growth, by the way, will be at least about this much. A share of this growth, that's mine.

15:17

Speaker A

They say: "Well, let's give it a try." No, I mean, I'm backing the growth.

15:20

Speaker A

I mean, they're taking a risk simply because what kind of risk—they say: "What if I do something wrong, right, and we lose money, are you ready to take responsibility?" I say: "Are you honestly ready?" I say: "I am ready."

15:29

Speaker A

He says: "Oh, great.""Let's write the contract." Well, there is one "but". There is one small "but". Remember, we talked about growth. And for the duration of the year, all of this growth is mine, all of it is mine. Well, I have to

15:40

Speaker A

insure, I say: "No, no, no." He says, let's go back to how it was, you're too risky, let's just make it a fixed fee instead, he says, let's rewind. And so I have, accordingly, different payment methods. You're welcome. I'm ready, I

15:48

Speaker A

say publicly, I'm ready to insure all my risks myself in this way. In the agency, it's a similar story when moments come up discussing the remuneration, the same thing, when you start, right, rolling out terms, like what we

16:00

Speaker A

calculate from EBITDA, from other metrics, what we exclude, which points. And when you get into the details, everyone says: "Well, let's switch to a fixed fee, right, let's go back to that classic agency commission, some percentage, let's go." Yeah.

16:11

Speaker A

No, I do have those sometimes. With pharma companies, I don't think I've ever done it based on growth. Well, that's just a different story. Pharmacy chains, it happens differently.

16:19

Speaker A

Sometimes someone would end up paying out quite well, I mean in terms of payments. I mean, I tell them: "Look, a fixed fee will cost you X." But in the end, they had to pay 10X from the growth. Well, because there was growth.

16:28

Speaker A

I told them, I promised there would only be growth, I said. "Well, we thought you were exaggerating a little.

16:33

Speaker A

" Well, things like that happened too. How does it end, is it enforcement proceedings or a review of some terms or very oft...well, not very often, they used to ask for a review, sometimes there are objective circumstances. In

16:44

Speaker A

2020, they called me and said, "Pavel, it’s a deal, a merchant’s word, a promise is worth more than money, we’ll cover everything." Well, you understand, the masks. Yeah, yeah, let’s exclude the masks. I said, " Fine, let’s exclude masks, but make a

16:53

Speaker A

list of what else." Well, because there really was such a crazy surge, that yes, the category exploded, it was a objective factor beyond my control, so we excluded it. Things like that happen.

17:06

Speaker A

We touched lightly, just skimmed the surface of your MBA teaching experience . Uh, tell us about it, please. Well, it's interesting, especially since you taught quite a lot in, how should I put it? In general, I think the selection

17:23

Speaker A

process for wanting to teach there was not simple either. So, there was probably some kind of filter. I mean, did they just say, "Pavel, do you want to teach an MBA?" No, that’s exactly how it was.

17:32

Speaker A

Because I looked at the name and thought, "Oh, this is that very company ." I said, "Yes," it was roughly like that, right? I mean , for that brand, I was ready to jump in right away. And I had worked with

17:44

Speaker A

the person who was organizing it all on other projects. So, everything was actually quite simple. I understood how we had worked through all of this before.

17:51

Speaker A

Can you tell us a bit about the listeners, the students, yes, you can call them that. Were they mostly entrepreneurs, owners, or were there others? A very mixed composition, because the group was ongoing, and let's say there's a specialization, for

18:07

Speaker A

example, pharma, and accordingly, those colleagues, yes, they worked somewhere in pharma, in various positions, but they were mostly employees, and some were sponsored, while others paid for themselves. So, that was the situation.

18:23

Speaker A

I mean, pure entrepreneurs, like "I’m going to start a pharma company," that definitely didn't happen. I mean, there wasn't that, you know, "I'm an entrepreneur," what do you call it? A visionary, so to speak.

18:35

Speaker A

Some Oleg-tech guy who studied in the States for a couple of years and created his own biotech company like Doronich or some other guys.

18:43

Speaker A

No, there were none of those. No, there were no such guys. Uh-huh. And so, was it modular, like marketing, finance, HR, were those included?

18:52

Speaker A

I didn't have HR. I mean, again, did I have all those modules? I taught my own module there. I think I had it in my marketing module. Sometimes I expand marketing so much that it essentially includes commerce and everything. I

19:04

Speaker A

basically just had basic microeconomics . That’s what I had. You can call it marketing, commerce, or whatever else you want. I mean, there's a certain set of tools that an employee working in a pharma company must possess. That’s

19:19

Speaker A

all. What disappointed you in, let’s say, the students? What do you mean? Did you think they knew a bit more, or the opposite?

19:25

Speaker A

Yes. No, they don’t disappoint me. No. When people disappoint me, I suppose I’ve already gotten used to it. The only thing that disappoints me is a lack of intellect in people.

19:34

Speaker A

That’s how I’d put it. Not stupidity, no, but a lack of intellect, because I enjoy interacting with smart people. And even if a person, well, I actually have an interesting collaboration right now with a colleague who isn't in pharma at all,

19:45

Speaker A

and he’s essentially discovering it for himself. He sometimes asks questions that are truly funny to us, and we think, "Well, obviously, you're just getting started." But I realize that he reached that question on his own. That means a lot to me. So it

19:59

Speaker A

depends more on the individual. I mean, on their intellectual development, let’s even say that.

20:04

Speaker A

Smart people aren't as common as one might hope. I feel like, if we step into philosophy , that a person who lacks intellect, as you say, is someone who cannot reach certain conclusions on their own. Like they can't think, or they think in

20:21

Speaker A

clichés, or something like that, yes, that happens. Though, it's not necessarily rational thinking, because for example, in terms of work, I love working with IT specialists because they have systematic thinking, and they say, "Oh, thanks Pavel, it's clear what

20:34

Speaker A

to do." For instance, I don’t have a single IT friend I would just sit and talk with. Because they’re boring.

20:41

Speaker A

When you try to stray off-topic, well, they have a system for everything, so in life too, the system has to be there and it's non-negotiable, it just has to be this way, like it was funny with the vaccines, when they said everyone needs

20:51

Speaker A

to be vaccinated. I said, "Give me an argument, if we vaccinate everyone, no one will get sick." Well, okay, but life doesn't work that way. No, he says , wait, here we have, and then everything just starts, topic closed.

21:02

Speaker A

Yes. Algorithm, do you have a systematic or more of a creative mindset? Well, I think I definitely suffer from so-called tunnel vision, my own biases, some professional deformation, or something like that, but I'd like to believe it's broader than just one

21:16

Speaker A

plane. And, well, it's hard for me to talk about it; perhaps it's clearer from the outside.

21:21

Speaker A

Actually, in a podcast, I caught this idea very well from the "Farmmarketing" department when he talked about evidence-based medicine and doctors.

21:28

Speaker A

There are doctors who are strictly about evidence, only like that is correct, nothing else. That’s what I mean. That is, when there is such narrow-mindedness. I mean, I'm not against evidence-based medicine either.

21:37

Speaker A

Let’s be clear. I’ll state this take one more time and say that I’m not against evidence-based medicine, I’m against certain dogmas, the idea that there is only one way and no other, and I don't want to know anything that contradicts

21:49

Speaker A

that. That’s a bit like religious fanaticism already. Yes. And wait, have you read that FDA and WHO report, right? Have you read it ? Are you sure you read it? See how it’s written there correctly? Read it . It says this group was too small,

22:01

Speaker A

unrepresentative. The sample size, what were you thinking, referring to such and such experts, blah-blah-blah, and all that.

22:08

Speaker A

Well, that’s probably convenient, and in a way, it’s also an opportunity to hide behind something. Yes, of course.

22:14

Speaker A

It’s great that there is no such thing at all in the pharmacy business. We don’t have any double-blind, placebo-controlled trials or anything like that. So, everything that is actually discussed on your channel, too , for a pharmacy employee, let me put

22:26

Speaker A

it this way, it’s not necessarily for the pharmacy, well, not that it's incomprehensible, but it's somewhere far away. For a good pharmacist, by the way, it might be meaningful— double-blind placebo-controlled—but it’s somewhere, well, very far away.

22:38

Speaker A

It won't tell them how it's done, why, and so on. And furthermore, honestly, there are people who are sincerely involved in the profession, and they might say: "Listen, this drug doesn't have evidence-based proof, but I see that it works." Well, they manage

22:52

Speaker A

somehow. So, Romon’s team highlighted a great point: many pharmacy counter staff like DocMed simply because they find it interesting. They pointed out that it’s better to prescribe something harmless than something...

23:04

Speaker A

And that too, by the way... than something the patient would buy anyway, which might even cause harm.

23:11

Speaker A

Well, they might lose money, but at least they'll learn the value. I wanted to ask about pharmacies, distribution, and retail. You surely lived through an interesting period back in the 2000s and 2010s. Can you describe what that time was like, because not all of our

23:25

Speaker A

audience knows how things used to be. I personally like the historical context of things that happened. How do you remember pharmacies in the 2010s?

23:37

Speaker A

Pharmacy chains, distributors. Yes, I can easily sum that up. Pharmacies were wealthier. Wealthier not just in terms of money, but richer in design, richer in assortment, more specialists on staff, and so on. Simply because life was wealthier. Well, the

23:52

Speaker A

market—or rather, the market was growing by double digits. I remember when I was writing my dissertation, I used market reports to show the Russian market was in the top three or five fastest-growing markets globally, with 20%growth. No, that’s exactly how it

24:07

Speaker A

was back then. It was truly like that. Everyone was like, "Yeah, that's how it is for us." Think back to 2008, remember how much we grew in 2007, and in 2008, we were still growing by double digits. And

24:17

Speaker A

what was it like in general? Everything was so good—or rather, it was so good that you didn't even have to do anything. Back then, consulting was a hard sell because, well, you already had everything and everything was fine.

24:26

Speaker A

And you’d say, "You know, I can offer double-digit growth." They'd reply, " Not interested, bring me triple digits.

24:30

Speaker A

" Nowadays, if you mention double-digit growth, people look at you like, "Are you for real?""That's not true, that doesn't happen; don't give us 10%, give us 3%, realistically." Well, that...

24:41

Speaker A

in general, the market...had so much money that you could just take it and make things happen. The only question was, who was actually going to do it?

24:53

Speaker A

If you could go back to those times with your current experience, where would you suggest investing or diversifying, if you were asked? Well, I actually have that thought constantly . I work with various markets, and they are at different levels

25:07

Speaker A

of development, let's say, yes. I won't name any specific market right now on purpose, so as not to offend anyone, but they are at different stages of development. And I have another question: which technologies should I apply? For instance, I arrive with

25:17

Speaker A

technologies that I’m implementing in Russia, and I realize, well, the market isn't ready. And I think, "Okay, one step back, two steps back." I think, " Wow, could I use this technology that I haven't used for a long time, and for

25:27

Speaker A

us, well, it’s outdated, so to speak, there are much more effective ones. And could I sell it now, in a good sense of the word, and it will show results. Wow . How about that. So, that's why I'm

25:37

Speaker A

constantly in this mode. And at the same time, interestingly enough, I sometimes see what will happen for us later. Meaning, while the market there is lagging in some parameters, it might be faster or much bigger in others. A

25:48

Speaker A

simple example. Back in '21, I had a huge number of contracts in Ukraine, however you prefer to call it. And I remember back then, we’re sitting at a table, and they say," Pavel, you're sitting at a table with 30%of the

26:02

Speaker A

Ukrainian pharmacy market—three or more people, that is, a pharmacy chain of 10%each. "Accordingly, do you understand how they squeezed the manufacturers?

26:12

Speaker A

The figures there were different. When I compare it with Russian ones, I think ," Wow, that's something. "Well, just a simple example. They even received money for shelf space. We never received money for shelf space back then—I don’t know about now, but we

26:23

Speaker A

didn’t then. And so on. So you can see what will happen next, you can see some negative examples. What happens if everything is sold by prescription?

26:30

Speaker A

Meaning, if all medication is strictly prescription-only. What will that lead to? And what happens if you ban marketing payouts? Oh, thank you.

26:36

Speaker A

Please show us what that would be like. Then show our people how it happens, what the negative consequences are. So these are very interesting testing grounds. They are very much testing grounds. when there was a very thin layer, now it's even narrower for those

26:49

Speaker A

who aren't initiated—the fact that there were private pharmacies back then , now there are far fewer of them, as you, well, can see. What are the chances that our market will shrink significantly, meaning all the companies eat each other up, or could

27:02

Speaker A

there still be some middle ground in today's reality, or do you think such pharmacies won't even exist?

27:07

Speaker A

That's a big question: will large pharmacy chains continue to exist for you? Well, that's an absolutely obvious question. I'm practically saying it in plain text. Let’s take a simple example.

27:18

Speaker A

I wanted to say, a pharmacy chain. The M.Video company, what’s happening with it? It's a leader. At some point, they essentially became, well, not monopolists, but oligopolists, right.

27:27

Speaker A

The thing is, I'm just not a specialist in this field, not electronics, but electronics sales. I know, I know DNS.

27:34

Speaker A

Well, who else do I know there. Eldorado, also M.Video. That's also M.Video. So you became big, you beat everyone, and suddenly something went wrong. And something went wrong because you became boring. Well, for many reasons, let's not discuss that, it’s the same with

27:47

Speaker A

pharmacies. Great, you have 10,000 pharmacies, 20,000 pharmacies, but why should I go to your pharmacy? These latest figures show FMCG sales are down by -10%, and people start speculating.

27:59

Speaker A

It's the SMO, or something else, people are going less. Guys, go into a Pyaterochka and look at that assortment . It so happens that, like I said, I travel to different countries.

28:10

Speaker A

Previously, well, let's say, not previously, let's compare now, comparing in Russia the best restaurants objectively. There's just nowhere else that even comes close. I mean, an Italian restaurant should just cry when coming to Russia, to our country. And let's go into their

28:25

Speaker A

retailers, a basket in Uzbekistan, or Magnum in Kazakhstan, I don't remember which one in Belarus, or in other countries. The assortment isn't just wider, it's radically wider. Radically wider. So I understand that Pyaterochka and Magnit ate everyone up, they took their share.

28:41

Speaker A

And now I don't understand why I should go there. I don't understand. I mean, with such an assortment and, well, an uninteresting store. It's better to look for niche shops for meat. I mean, in niche stores for milk, farm produce,

28:53

Speaker A

and so on. Why do I need that? Well, and everything else is nonsense, one should extrapolate this to pharmacies.

28:58

Speaker A

Absolutely the same thing with pharmacies. Come on, guys, why do I need to go to April? I think, in my whole life, I've never bought anything at April, even though I needed to. I mean, I went in, and they didn't have

29:06

Speaker A

what I needed. Uh, why should I even go there? All right, never mind, let’s not name other pharmacy chains, because I don’t see anything there that used to be there. Or maybe these large pharmacies just don't differ from one

29:16

Speaker A

another. One is a dinosaur, another a diplodocus, and the third one is a diplodocus too. I mean, why—you’ve surely talked to the owners and proprietors—why don't pharmacies try to differentiate themselves, like, with some unique selling proposition or what?

29:27

Speaker A

Well, we could put that meme in right here, it’s possible. But why? I mean, it really is possible. A simple example . Let me tell you. A large pharmacy chain. A very, very large chain, one of the top five. We are negotiating a

29:40

Speaker A

consulting project, specifically, implementing category management. I have an automated category management model. It can be 100%implemented. I provide all the algorithms within the software.

29:52

Speaker A

Everything works for you. I mean, excuse me, you have like 60 people sitting in your office doing all of this. You could do it with ten, or even five, or three employees who would do it even better.

30:04

Speaker A

Uh-huh. Let the rest of them handle marketing contracts or something. So, he listened to all of this. I thank him , he asked good questions. The commercial director is a pro. And then he says," Well, it probably won't suit

30:14

Speaker A

us. "I say," Come on, we haven't even discussed the price yet. "I ask," Tell me, why? "He says," We review our matrix once a year. "And I’m like," Wait, hang on, but distributors might be out of stock. "" You’ve hit your

30:29

Speaker A

target for one contract, you need another. "He says," Well, I have contracts lined up. "Who, yes, is coming next? I mean, roughly speaking, I don't know, we fulfilled company X, now it's company Y. And how do we form

30:40

Speaker A

the assortment matrix? The manufacturers came to us, and we built the product category. And right there, well, it’s a completely obvious thing . Forgive me, you can understand something, or you can feel it. Right there I felt that the company isn't

30:50

Speaker A

working for the customer, it’s working for the pharma manufacturer. And that’s that. What am I going to tell them? I have a service for increasing marketing payouts—yes, that’s in demand—but they don't need category management.

31:01

Speaker A

Why? I mean, you’ll buy whatever they put in front of you; where else are you going to go, you're stuck in a submarine. But that’s only for the time being.

31:09

Speaker A

So, you mean, I really want to know if you agree or not, do you think pharmacy chains have turned into monsters that depend on what pharmaceutical manufacturers load them with?

31:19

Speaker A

No, they load themselves up here. No, they are independent pharmacies, independent entrepreneurs. Well, this trend that they work for the manufacturer, it exists, right? That trend is, in a sense, a matter of negative-positive experience. Let me explain what negative-positive

31:36

Speaker A

experience is: when you do nothing, but everything still works out for you. Unfortunately, or fortunately, in our country, this was the case for the pharma market, just look back from the 2000s, to 2014, and even to 2020.

31:46

Speaker A

Whatever you did, everything grew; the market was growing, and, forgive me, the pharmacy chains that existed back then were laughable. A chain would consciously enter a cash gap in the summer. I mean, try telling that to other markets, like:" Well, you know, I

32:00

Speaker A

won't have any money in July, but I'm stocking up on goods now. "What do you mean? You'll hit a cash flow gap.

32:06

Speaker A

It’s no big deal, really. And that was normal, everyone went through it, everyone had a cash gap in the summer, and then, well, distributors somehow insured that. Well, that's how the market worked, it was normal. Yeah, that was normal. So, yes, it's a

32:18

Speaker A

seasonal thing, and no one calculated it in advance. Well, that's how it used to be, but things are much stricter now . And this somewhat relaxed attitude toward business still persists in many ways. Like," Well, we used to do it

32:35

Speaker A

that way and it all worked out. "And look at what pharmacy chains are focused on. Even Anisimov, in his speech, kept talking about this.

32:43

Speaker A

Manufacturer payments, manufacturer payments. So, someone from the outside has to make my business profitable.

32:49

Speaker A

Is that an entrepreneurial approach or not? Or is it just a limited model? And what if something happens, let's say manufacturers stop paying, or some bill —a crazy bill—in our country could just ban marketing payments in one, two

33:04

Speaker A

, three. By the way, in one of the countries I visited just recently, there’s a law where marketing payments for prescription drugs carry a 10-year prison sentence. 10 years in prison for incentivizing the sale of prescription drugs. How many companies

33:18

Speaker A

do you think would risk bypassing such a bill? That’s basically a meme that could land you 10 years in prison. We should probably applaud and cut this part out now, because Pavel, don't give them ideas, don't give our guys ideas—they

33:30

Speaker A

might actually do it. Yeah, they’ll even name it after me and brand me as someone to be removed from the pharma market entirely.

33:37

Speaker A

A specialized training by Pavel Lesovsky for lawmakers, yes, for the legislature. So it’s just this habit of getting money from somewhere. Not used to, in a good way, earning money from the customers. Now, I don't want to criticize all pharmacy chains,

33:53

Speaker A

because there are some that are working on this, and there are good chains that I respect, which do try to get money from the customer in a good sense of the word, but that strong bias toward the pharma manufacturer remains. And,

34:08

Speaker A

of course, what would we do without this? How could we possibly do without it? So we talked about pharmacies, what they were like and the consequences.

34:15

Speaker A

Now about the distributors. At one of the meetings of a pharmaceutical association, I heard that the distributors actually run the pharma market and everything is essentially tailored to them. Why they think that, they didn't really explain, but I

34:32

Speaker A

started thinking, digging, and studying . I love studying the history of pharmaceuticals. I have a book, and you probably have it too," Tableted Firms.

34:39

Speaker A

"Well, of course, I meant" Tableted Pharma. "" Firm, "yeah, I keep saying" firm, "but" pharma "is a good...

34:45

Speaker A

And I'm reading it too. And I had a private conversation with one of the people who was there at the beginning; he worked in distributor companies, like Media. And when he told me about how they were built, many distributors

35:00

Speaker A

were alumni—well, it's no secret, like Tensor, or where did they come from, or I mean Katren, and it's...

35:10

Speaker A

Katren. Yes, yes, yes. So all these people, they came from a physics and math or applied background, and I was just talking to someone else...

35:21

Speaker A

One of the people who also worked in a distributor, in distribution. I think, what, do you have some kind of school in Novosibirsk where all the distributor company staff come from? It seems there’s some kind of hub there,

35:31

Speaker A

from Akademgorodok more or less. Yes. Yes, yes, yes. Yes, yes. And I think, maybe that’s all connected somehow.

35:36

Speaker A

And it turns out they set up the IT infrastructure. Well, back then it wasn't called that, just some systems for pharmacies, you know, accounting, inventory, and so on.

35:45

Speaker A

Sys- Many companies themselves back in the 90s and 2000 s—you couldn't really call them headquarters, they were just apartments. And back then, as I was told, there were no 44-FZ or 223-FZ laws, just the budgets of various state

36:02

Speaker A

organizations, be it the Interior Ministry, the FSB, or some Ministry of Health and Labor.

36:10

Speaker A

Or a trade union, or something like that. They had a budget for medication. Well, simply because it was necessary.

36:14

Speaker A

Everyone consumes medication one way or another. And back then, companies literally just pooled their money, which was natural. Premises were needed . Because of this, a certain kind of infrastructure was built. It grew into what we have now. And I’m always

36:30

Speaker A

interested in how that was formed. I love looking at specific moments and details of how things were built, decomposing them into stages—how they first set things up, and what the regulatory consequences were, in a good sense. Like, what was decided to

36:49

Speaker A

optimize and simplify the system so the patient could get their medication or buy it at a pharmacy. I’m just curious, what did you see, and what, in your opinion, has changed significantly , including in distribution?

37:06

Speaker A

Well, it's hard for me to answer that definitively, as in whether they planned for it to turn out the way it is now or not. Probably not. No, honestly, it’s more that pharma manufacturers initially paid distributors for one simple reason.

37:20

Speaker A

They actually paid much less than they do now, because you needed a single point of contact where you could provide a budget, and they would do something to boost your sales. There were many small pharmacies and small pharmacy chains, and you simply didn't

37:33

Speaker A

have the manpower to visit them all. And so you worked through distributors; you handed the money, as I said, to the distributor. Because of this, distributors grew. Then pharmacy chains appeared. Pharmacy chains said," Actually, we can do this ourselves now.

37:43

Speaker A

"" We don't need this distributor. "" Give the money to us. "" But more of it . "" You used to pay the distributor 3% , but let’s start us at 10%, and then eventually you'll be paying 70%—all

37:53

Speaker A

in good time. " It happened more like that. And the peculiarity of the distribution market, if I may say so, is a feature of our country specifically. Ours is a very large country, a very large country indeed. And because of that, we have a

38:03

Speaker A

large number of distributors. That’s all there is to it. Then again, there probably aren't many others like it.

38:09

Speaker A

Kazakhstan is indeed, of course, also large in terms of territory and population density, and there are quite a lot of distributors there too. And again, here is an example: in Ukraine, there were essentially three distributors, with two holding 90%at

38:22

Speaker A

the time the special operation began, and the other 10%remaining. Right after the start of the special operation, it became 95.5%, then 98.2%, and so on.

38:30

Speaker A

Two colluded to finish off the third. The antitrust authority there does not work as effectively as in our country.

38:36

Speaker A

Our country has the best antitrust authority, the fairest one. There. And they missed this moment, and two distributors essentially strangled the third.

38:47

Speaker A

Well, that could happen. The pharmacy is in the black. Yes, the main thing is for the pharmacy to be profitable. That's true. Yes.

38:53

Speaker A

And if we look a little to the west, to Western or Eastern Europe, you have surely encountered that too.

38:59

Speaker A

I really hope, is that also possible, right? I really hope that sooner or later we will enter Western or Eastern Europe. Uh, but I hope we enter there with business. Yes. Man, that was very ...If our pharmacy chain, let's say,

39:15

Speaker A

any one you want, our most average pharmacy chain... were to open and operate according to our standards in, say, Germany or France, all those great pharmacy chains and pharmacies that have existed there for centuries would be kicked out of

39:32

Speaker A

the market in a matter of months. Simply because they operate so inefficiently compared to our pharmacy chains. It is embarrassing for our market participants to listen or learn from what they are told. I am saying it straight: it is embarrassing to learn

39:48

Speaker A

because we have much more effective technologies. I am not even talking about the chain that partnered with me.

39:53

Speaker A

Just a regular pharmacy chain is head and shoulders above in service, pharmacists, the assortment they recommend, and, well, everything. I have a segment where I travel to different countries and take pictures of what their pharmacies look like.

40:06

Speaker A

Well, the audience likes it, and it's not hard for me to do, yeah. Guys, we are much stronger, head and shoulders above. Well, practically in everything, including IT infrastructure . A simple example: I had a conference in Rome in 2019, and I was invited as a

40:21

Speaker A

representative of Russian pharma. By the way, I was with Nikolai Dividov. Uh-huh. And so, basically, we talked about how things were going for us, and others talked about how things were going for them. I remember the representatives from Poland saying:" Well, we pay

40:33

Speaker A

pharmacy chains 3%. "And we were like," How much? 3%? "And then they talk, you know, they draw all these charts showing how they meet all their targets for that 3%. I say," That's great. "I ask," How do you manage that? "" Oh, by

40:45

Speaker A

the way, all our pharmacy chains run on the same software. "I’m like," Now tell me more about that. "Well, some IT company created this product, all the small chains installed it. So, I get it , I say, soon you'll all have to pay

40:57

Speaker A

this one company, and you won't need to bring money to the chains anymore. And there were, well, generally speaking, Italians there. The Italians, by the way, took this in very well. Their chains have only recently appeared, and they’re like," Wait, Pavel, you’re

41:09

Speaker A

saying that you have situations where you pay the pharmacy chains, but they don't fulfill the terms? "How does that work? Please tell us. He says," You paid, and they didn't deliver. "I say," Well, that's a normal story, seriously,

41:18

Speaker A

what's wrong? "Just like that. Yeah, it's just that, well, the point is that our market—call it wild or strong, or highly competitive—we've been so hardened by battles with each other that our techniques are truly as refined as possible. I would be

41:38

Speaker A

interested, by the way, to see how our pharmacy chains would fare in the Brazilian market, for example. It’s very similar. I mean, who would win, us or them, right? That would be interesting. Competition as well, right? No, well, two pharmacies opened

41:51

Speaker A

next to each other, so, like, the old way, how the Brazilians work and how our guys work—let's not even take the best, let's look at their average performers and ours. As for the experience, I repeat, Western European or European from a commercial point of

42:03

Speaker A

view, yes, the way pharmacies work, I haven't seen any interesting ideas, I'll put it that way. They start telling you, you know, about how, you know, we have a doctor working in our pharmacy who provides consultations, and I immediately start calculating how

42:15

Speaker A

much that's going to cost us. That's, like, unprofitable, right? And we also check skin for things and recommend stuff, right? Now try making that line of people sit and wait in the pharmacy.

42:25

Speaker A

And then I always have one question for them: where is the nearest pharmacy? He says," Well, in another block. "I say," And, by the way, how are your Sunday hours? "We are closed on Sundays." And what time do you close? "" At seven.

42:35

Speaker A

Thank you. That's it. "Yes. I mean, when you have no competitors, you can afford a shower for the pharmacist and everything else.

42:42

Speaker A

And don't even get me started on delivery. What? I mean, what delivery? People come in like this; it's convenient for them. the fact that Uh-huh.

42:48

Speaker A

they say, yes, well, it's all very time-consuming, actually, well, the question of the existence of the pharmacist and chemist profession remains a big one all over the world, not just here.

42:57

Speaker A

And is this related to competencies or what is it actually related to? Uh, as a pharmacist, I'll say I'm categorically against pharmacists and chemists leaving and this history changing. This is my market, don't touch it, as they say, yes,

43:13

Speaker A

but the specifics, well, it means, let's see, it all starts with trust. Any sale is, one way or another, about trust. I mean, it could be trust in a brand or something else. Now, I don't know, let's say Apple releases a new

43:27

Speaker A

microphone. Yes, there you go. Yes, nobody will even look at the specs. Everyone will just say," Well, it's Apple, yeah, everything is clear. " They'll prove why it's better, despite worse technical specifications. Yes, yes, it's better because it's visually

43:39

Speaker A

bigger, it doesn't matter. Because there's a reputation, there's trust, yes. By the way, in consulting, reputation is one of the main things.

43:45

Speaker A

Well, in the service economy in general . Uh, yes, we are talking about the service economy. The pharma industry, the pharmacy chain, that is, the original person in a white coat, yes, there is some level of trust, but over

43:57

Speaker A

the last 10 years, we have squandered that level of competence and trust quite brutally. And the leading chains have squandered it the most. I'm not even talking about how they've started to look worse on the outside. I mean, a

44:10

Speaker A

white coat is mandatory. Well, it's not because I'm a pharmacist, but I'm in favor of everything being written in Latin, by the way. Yes, they should write in Latin. They should write everything in Latin and wear white coats because that's how I was taught,

44:22

Speaker A

guys. It creates a certain aura of mystery around your profession. And accordingly, it creates a certain level up, which allows you to sell it at a higher price. Well, it's obvious. Well, what, no, let's make everything simpler for the people. And after that, the

44:36

Speaker A

salesperson too. Yes, I’m not a salesperson; I finished a 72-hour course at the post office, so now I’m a junior assistant to the senior pharmacist.

44:43

Speaker A

By the way, at one of the pharmacy association meetings, I said:" We lack trust, so it’s hard for a front-line clerk to sell or push this stupid private label, simply because they don't understand what they are selling.

44:56

Speaker A

Why are you even talking about a pharmacist's trust in this product? " Overall, the concept of trust is, how should I put it, more global for us, and as you correctly said, it has been drained. The story is like this. I mean

45:13

Speaker A

, there is this concept of picking low-hanging fruit, and that’s normal. Well, I’m like that myself, and I suppose we all are, to some extent. Yes , the brain is wired that way, it seems .

45:23

Speaker A

Well, that’s normal, right? So, why did pharmacy chains start working so actively with pharmaceutical manufacturers? Well, why? They come to you and say," Yes, I’m selling, I’m doing this for the people. "And that’s it. They ask," How much do you

45:32

Speaker A

want? "" Three, "you say." Okay, 10. " You say," No, 15. "" Fine, 20, let's do it. "And you think," Whoa, that was possible too? "Now you say," Listen, 20 is too little, let's make it 30, yeah, let's do it. "And you get used to it.

45:44

Speaker A

At some point, you hit the limit of this economic strategy and actually end up losing some of your customers. You ask," Where else can I make some money?

45:51

Speaker A

"" Let’s introduce private labels. " And you launch the first, second, and third ones, and you just see explosive growth in those positions. I see those numbers there. Well, your gold rush started at that moment because Magne B6

46:05

Speaker A

, from the esteemed company Sanofi, stopped making you money, since Sanofi’s policy in promoting Essentiale and Magne B6 from 2010 to 2020 was simply crude and mistaken, and I can prove it.

46:18

Speaker A

Well, actually, what is there for me to prove? The market has already proven it . They did everything to ensure Essentiale was sold without any markup.

46:24

Speaker A

And now you think:" Right, this is the top-selling product on the Russian market, and I’m making zero from it.

46:29

Speaker A

"In fact, even a loss." How about I make an 'Essentiale Super Advance' with Vitamin C under my pharmacy chain's name; I'll sell it for 3 rubles " cheaper and for 300 rubles more profitable.

46:41

Speaker A

This is a purely Russian approach. It’s the right approach. But you killed the profitability of the product . I commercially despise it. So you're making me push items that I don't make any money on. So I'll find a

46:52

Speaker A

replacement. And at first, they really try to make a high-quality replacement. A small clarification, I just got lost.

46:56

Speaker A

Is it the pharmacy or the manufacturer that isn't making money? The manufacturer makes money.

47:00

Speaker A

The manufacturer always makes money, unless it's some independent domestic producer that decided they could work with one pharmacy chain and live well.

47:07

Speaker A

Right. And then at a press conference, they'll say he isn't paying enough. But that's a separate, long story.

47:14

Speaker A

No, the manufacturer will always make money. The pharmacy chain doesn't make money there because, well, remember all that advertising when you’d look for the recommended price, say, 80 rubles, and I’m buying it for 85.

47:26

Speaker A

So what am I supposed to do now, how? I mean, they told me on TV that I'm profiting off the buyer. Well, basically, it’s about how I feel about this company. I did everything possible to make sure this product

47:36

Speaker A

wouldn’t sell. Everything possible. And then I get the opportunity, and I show them: it used to be yours, now it’s ours. And so, the first time private labels came out, they showed crazy margins. And naturally, we said," Well, let's put a private label like

47:50

Speaker A

this in every product category now. " And then, the classic capitalist model follows. Well, greed, greed, stupidity, laziness. Let's say we sell it for, I don’t know, 500 rubles. The cost price is 250. So we have 250, which is

48:06

Speaker A

actually weak, but back then it was. Wow, 100%. And let's say I buy it for 150. I can’t sell it for 500 anymore.

48:12

Speaker A

The competitor already has it for 450. Well, let’s, how about for 100, how about for 50? And then you take that packaging. I’m not talking about the contents. I didn't conduct any research . I had a simple test with a pharmacy

48:26

Speaker A

chain owner. He shows me his pharmacy. I cover the price tag on the private label. I ask:" How much is it? "He says :" Well, I don't know. "He says:" Well, how much would you pay for it? "And I

48:35

Speaker A

say:" Well, hint that since he has money, he doesn't care how much it costs. "I say:" Well, how much is this packaging worth?

48:41

Speaker A

200 rubles, 750. "I ask:" Why did you say 200? You have money, you don't pay attention. "I say:" Because your eye, well, would notice uneven printing somewhere. " There are no decent words for this.

48:54

Speaker A

I’d have to applaud now. You should hire a proper designer. When you make your private labels, you honestly can't look at them without tears. I mean, you could make them look nice. Well, it’s really the simplest thing. They hire

49:06

Speaker A

some girl on outsourcing for peanuts, or worse, have an employee who draws it , and that’s just a disaster. It’s just tacky, it kills the value even if the pill itself is amazing. And that’s it. And gradually, you start

49:24

Speaker A

with a decent private label and slowly turn it into something like that. I think it’s a more debatable topic why they skimp on services to make it quality, at least in the long run.

49:36

Speaker A

I have one clear answer. Why is that? Greed, laziness, and stupidity. And that’s just a feature of the pharmacy market. Greed, laziness, stupidity.

49:44

Speaker A

Greed is in first place. That’s why the margins are killed. Then comes laziness. Well, that, and stupidity.

49:48

Speaker A

Just that." Good enough as is. " Uh-huh. You could make that the motto." The reputation is there anyway. "" They’ll keep coming to you regardless . "" Doesn't even matter. "Well, no, no, that's not my motto. Yeah, I mean

50:02

Speaker A

it as a characteristic. No, I understand perfectly. It’s very accurately observed. We need to say something more positive, that it’s not all bad. We’ve really built up some momentum, we— we already praised our own, right? Yes, ours are cool. Yes. And at

50:21

Speaker A

the same time, we’re actually the coolest. Moreover, our technologies, including, I’ll say it again, definitely mine, are in demand in other pharmacy markets. So, yes, when I visit other Russian-speaking countries, they ask me:" Pavel, could you organize a

50:34

Speaker A

tour? "" We’d like to visit this pharmacy chain, talk to the owners, and so on. "So I respond to that, because, yes, objectively, there is a lot to learn from us. The only thing is , if these pharmacy chains had this

50:47

Speaker A

knowledge 10 years ago, they would have shown very good, very great results. But now, well, everyone already knows how to do this. So, in principle, we are all at a high level now. And we need to find tools, like, you know,

51:00

Speaker A

Kaizen, where you first have sharp growth, and then every additional gain requires much greater effort. So you are approaching the peak, and we have indeed approached it. That is why, by the way, I am not very optimistic about

51:15

Speaker A

the future of large pharmacy chains, because one mistake, or some problematic market, and you have no chance to save it all. Meaning you don't have the technology to insure yourself. At one time, that technology was either manufacturer rebates or

51:33

Speaker A

private labels; what next technology would you propose? Well, I don't see one. Maybe if it appears, that would be great. I became interested in exploring and discussing the topic of dietary supplements, how supplement manufacturers entered the pharmacy chain, private labels, and contract

51:47

Speaker A

manufacturing. I was at a conference recently dedicated to market share, and supplements are growing rapidly, unlike even medicines. What do you think about that? Is there a trend where major manufacturers, for example, Evalar, Mirolla, Kvadrat-S, might lose their

52:06

Speaker A

leadership position to newcomers? That could happen due to regulations. Anything at all; yes, anything could happen in that sense. Let's first look at when we say supplements are growing, which supplements exactly? Perhaps we should separate private labels from

52:23

Speaker A

supplements. And then what? Are the independent, so to speak, supplement brands growing or not, and then do we separate e-commerce or not? There are a lot of such factors here. We need to look at the numbers, look at the facts in more detail. So I

52:41

Speaker A

can't say for sure. It just seems like the regulatory grip on marketplaces is tightening, making it harder for the small players. They were cleared out of the gray zone, then they reappeared; they removed melatonin from the assortment, for instance. Those product

52:58

Speaker A

lines, like Evalar's, were the ones who initiated that. Saying let's only sell melatonin in pharmacies. Then they were cleared out from there, and they came back with something else. Ashwagandha turned out to be, let's say, not allowed. Well, as if it's harmful.

53:14

Speaker A

They are constantly being pushed out; it's narrowing, narrowing, narrowing. They even want to introduce labeling for supplements now.

53:19

Speaker A

It will happen for sure. Yes, listen. But on the other hand, they were riding on so-called unfair advantages, and now they are starting to squeeze the sellers. Well, if your business model is built on saving on taxes or some

53:33

Speaker A

other things that don't make the situation globally better for everyone, well, that's fine. But if your math doesn't add up when taxes increase, well, your business math isn't worth a dime.

53:45

Speaker A

I'm just speaking from the perspective of, well, raw materials. Meaning, I work for a raw material distribution company. And so I see someone quoting me a price for raw materials directly from India or China. I estimate, like, how much it will cost here,

54:00

Speaker A

right? Yes. How much it will cost, what the markup is, the logistics involved —plus, say, the overproduction in China right now. Plus what I know: some client has a pharmacy contract, meaning they have a 180-day deferral, and until

54:14

Speaker A

they get paid by the pharmacy, they might owe us. Am I willing to offer, say, a 60-day deferral, or lower the price, or conversely, raise the price?

54:22

Speaker A

Knowing that they will owe money there. Like Pavel said, the summer period is a planned cash gap. Well, that's how we plan, right? Well yes, the cost of money is just added to the cost of the product.

54:32

Speaker A

So, from that point of view, it was interesting for me to think through how to collapse this. Interesting.

54:39

Speaker A

For us, I don't see any systematic work on promoting and popularizing the intake of dietary supplements among the population. It's more like a mainstream sentiment has emerged that supplements are, well, not that they aren't good— I don't think that—but there is some

54:57

Speaker A

kind of slight judgment, you know, about these supplements. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm not saying it's good or bad, it just happened that way. Maybe it's a consequence of, say, the nineties or the two-thousands, possibly MLM companies. Could be anything.

55:11

Speaker A

I believe, and I work directly with MLM manufacturers, that they aren't going anywhere. Moreover, in times of crisis, they show the best results.

55:21

Speaker A

That's a well-known story, yes, they grew exponentially in the nineties and in 2020, even more than what we read about. And the main thing is, you can't calculate what their revenue is, they aren't interested in that, Yeah. Plus, each pack might cost 1,000

55:35

Speaker A

rubles for you, but for others, it might be 2,000 or, conversely, 500 rubles. Because there are those who have money, they can buy it for 2,000.

55:42

Speaker A

And there, by the way, it’s interesting from the manufacturers 'and pharmacy chains' perspective, how much can the price difference vary, where they offer more or less to different chains?

55:53

Speaker A

Who? Who offers more? The manufacturer, the distributor. Uh, right. The manufacturer sells goods to the distributor at the same prices.

56:01

Speaker A

I mean, it's just the specification upfront. Well, there are probably global exceptions to that. So, uh, distributors sell goods to pharmacy chains at different prices. That, by the way, is a unique feature of the Russian market. It’s a very cool,

56:13

Speaker A

sophisticated feature. The fact that different pharmacies get different prices. To us, it seems like a given, but I haven't seen that in any other market. Everywhere else, it's the same price. The same price everywhere. And it's only adjusted by discounts known

56:24

Speaker A

only to the client. Meaning, we are three different pharmacy chains, and we all see the same price. That’s it. We only know our own payment terms and discounts. Actually, I’m currently implementing this with a distributor in Kazakhstan, when we start playing with

56:36

Speaker A

pricing. It’s a very cool feature of the Russian distribution market. And prices, yes, can vary quite significantly for, well, the distributor, for the client, based on different parameters. Let’s not dive into that math right now. And of course

56:50

Speaker A

, a manufacturer can pay some nothing, others 20 percent, some 50, and some 70 . For the exact same, not just the same brand, but the exact same SKU. And again, it’s about the greed, stupidity, and laziness of pharmacy

57:01

Speaker A

chains—if they pay you 20%while your competitor gets 70%, and you still keep meeting that company’s targets. You should just say," That's it, goodbye, " and shut it down. And ideally, if you have the chance, without harming your customers, pull that product from your

57:13

Speaker A

assortment immediately. You shouldn't be driving those sales. But how can you ? I get 20%.

57:18

Speaker A

So, in that sense, aren't pharmacies just pushovers, that... Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, what else can we do? Well, at least they pay 20%, otherwise they’d pay nothing at all. Well yes, that's true. So, it’s not that they’re paying you 20,

57:28

Speaker A

it’s that you’re paying 50 to the leaders. That’s what’s happening. And there is no professional community.

57:34

Speaker A

It’s just everyone getting together, complaining, and then dispersing. A lobbying organization only appeared recently. Thank God, at least it's some kind of organization, in a good sense of the word. Yes, we have one.

57:45

Speaker A

Lobbying for interests. Let's call a spade a spade. Sometimes it protects, and sometimes it says to call it— You can, yes, you can call it that.

57:53

Speaker A

Well, in essence, yes, the Russian Association of Pharmacy Chains is, in a good sense of the word, an organization that protects the rights of pharmacy chains, primarily those that are members of this very Russian Association of Pharmacy Chains.

58:04

Speaker A

Interestingly, you know, I tried to understand the US pharmacy market. It seems to me that it's something very deep, because insurance companies are involved there in a completely different way. I just took two companies for study, like pharmacy

58:18

Speaker A

chains that look just like some Auchan or megamarket, something like that. Uh-huh. And they have almost everything there.

58:24

Speaker A

I don't know, maybe they even have chainsaws, from reagents to advertising . Yeah, yeah, they probably could even have that. Right. And for me, it's just , well, complicated. On the other hand, you watch some movies or see references

58:37

Speaker A

where a pharmacy can be a place where a person in a lab coat is actually packing a specific number of pills into a jar, where they write in Latin exactly what the drug is. Well, for the whole world labels in English. Well

58:48

Speaker A

, yes, yes. Okay. Well, for But we would use Latin. Well, in Latin, yes, specifically the Latin name, the INN, and the dosage, how much to take, and so on. Has anyone ever had the fantasy that maybe we could have

59:01

Speaker A

something like that someday, or, well, I am currently promoting this, yes, production pharmacies, uh, a new type of production pharmacy, but I am even a member of a working group at the State Duma that is participating in the discussion of this bill, so to

59:18

Speaker A

speak, how this bill is to be implemented. But, specifically about other markets, given that I am, yes, a Candidate of Economic Sciences, yes, I know, responsibly I am a scientist, as a scientist I first figure out why such

59:30

Speaker A

a model emerged. And I have several questions for the market that answer it for you immediately. Well, like, is the market similar or not similar. Let's take the first market. Ah, oops, I apologize. First question for the market. Who is the main payer? So, who

59:41

Speaker A

can be the payer? The state. Uh-huh. The buyer, insurance companies. Well, who is more, for instance, in America, it's the insurance company. Accordingly , who do pharmacy chains work for primarily?

59:51

Speaker A

For the insurance company, of course, it doesn't matter to them what the buyer thinks anymore. If you have signed a contract with an insurance company, you will have a stream of customers. That closes the issue. That's it, that closes the issue

60:02

Speaker A

. Next question. By the way, are pharmacy chains allowed in that country ? In Germany, for example, they are simply banned, so it's not even interesting to talk about the guys themselves. Just forget it. Let’s just define this territory. This is our

60:16

Speaker A

territory for life. Well, okay. Only I don’t want to shop at your pharmacies . And so on, for various reasons. What are the next questions? Are payments allowed, and so on. I actually have a whole questionnaire that I run through.

60:29

Speaker A

By the way, the market closest to us among the commercially distant markets —not counting nearby countries—is the market in Brazil, Argentina, and so on. They are very similar to our market . All others are different because the buyer pays there, and the pharmacist

60:45

Speaker A

can substitute drugs within a fairly wide range, and so on. The markets look similar, pharmacies look similar. But they are, in essence, fundamentally different establishments; yes, you are right when you say that they prescribe an exact number of pills for you. So,

60:59

Speaker A

do you know why? Because insurance pays for those pills. That’s why they won’t ask things like, “Here is your antibiotic, what course were you prescribed?” Five. We only have seven . They’ll prescribe five and you’re free to go. That’s it. And if you say

61:11

Speaker A

, can I have six? No. Well, because there was Obamacare and all sorts of other things. Well, yes, a bunch of all that, yes. Then, for example, why is there a small pharmacy area in the United States—I also have

61:23

Speaker A

this video on my channel—and a huge retail space with umbrellas, Coca-Cola, and so on? A simple example: it’s because the pharmacy can operate around the clock. Let me finish the idea. The pharmacy doesn't pay any extra taxes for operating 24/7. It just so happened

61:38

Speaker A

that this pharmacy also sells cigarettes. It’s a coincidence. For some reason, in the entire market, all other stores are closed. But you have a small pharmacy, meaning that prescription counter, and a huge retail floor.

61:51

Speaker A

And for some reason, at night, nobody goes to the prescription counter, but everyone buys something else. That’s the whole story. Now let’s try to repeat that and do it in Russia. Well, you won't be able to. Your model is

61:59

Speaker A

just different. We will end up with something of our own. I wanted to explore another question.

62:06

Speaker A

It's very interesting about pharmacies, but in one of the Telegram chats, I saw a remark from you that conferences nowadays aren't what they used to be.

62:15

Speaker A

They have all become boring. The topics are the same, the people are the same, and the food at the reception is the same.

62:21

Speaker A

I didn't say anything about the food. Food can be different. Yes, that’s already a discrepancy.

62:28

Speaker A

What do you think needs to be changed to bring in something new? Well, well.

62:36

Speaker A

Let me explain by contrast. By contrast . Actually, the first conference I ever attended, back when I was a medical representative, by the way, was the Adam Smith conference. By the way, the first person I met there was Alexander

62:46

Speaker A

Kuzin. He was working at DSME back then . Uh-huh. So. And it was wow. I mean, it was wow.

62:53

Speaker A

People were prepared, everyone had presentations, everything was precise, timing was kept, full halls, and so on.

62:59

Speaker A

And, putting it mildly, well, first off , Adam Smith doesn't exist anymore, and as for what's the successor now, guys, let's compare. People show up and think it's acceptable to sit sprawled out and talk without a presentation. They’re

63:10

Speaker A

interesting enough as they are. And really, why prepare for a speech? I’m just an interesting person. I can talk, and you just listen to me. I can even speak so far from the microphone that you have to strain to hear me. And no

63:21

Speaker A

one will say a word to me. No moderator , and so on. That’s the whole story.

63:24

Speaker A

The drop in quality is radical. I mean, in most cases, this is a question for the organizers first and foremost, not the people themselves. I mean, if you’re invited to such a conference, they tell you:" You can come, but you

63:35

Speaker A

are obligated. "" Bang, bang, bang. "I hate it when they give me these riders, by the way:" Well, what can you do, you have to, "and they also say:" Send your presentation in advance, a few weeks before, "not for money, but just for

63:45

Speaker A

the chance to tell them something. The economics of organizing these conferences might have changed.

63:52

Speaker A

Hypothetically, some portion of the money, say from sponsors, partners, and so on, 10 years ago was close to zero or much less. Well, I also used to think conferences were more interesting . I went to various industry events,

64:09

Speaker A

and back then there were some interesting reports, slides, and everything else. Pavel was talking about Adam Smith. Which one was yours, like...

64:16

Speaker A

a long time ago. A long time ago, yes. Yes. Which one was yours like that?

64:19

Speaker A

Well, earlier, everything under the label of, say, Yandex, those were very cool conferences. About 5-7 years ago, you could go to an event and listen to some case study presented like it was some kind of holy grail and rocket

64:33

Speaker A

science. And you're sitting there with a colleague, saying:" Listen, isn't that the thing we’ve already been running and doing for 3 months? "And they’re like:" Yeah, I guess so. "It basically says that, well, spaceships are cruising through the universe, and

64:47

Speaker A

year by year, month by month, your standards for the material seem to drop , your drive fades, and you start seeing the main part of the event. It’s a place where you can meet the greatest number of people in a single span of

65:03

Speaker A

time, so you don't have to meet each one individually. You can just cover 10 , 20, 30 people at once and spend 5-10 minutes talking to everyone. Roughly speaking, that's it. And I personally go to conferences mainly just to talk

65:18

Speaker A

to people. Or to give at least one good presentation. I mean, the whole conference could go by, and if my talk was good, that’s it. Irony. Uh, well, you aren't the only one giving talks, obviously.

65:28

Speaker A

Yeah, actually, I’ll put it this way: if there’s been one good presentation at a conference, I consider it a success for me. Meaning I walked away with some sort of idea; that's how it is. There are successful conferences.

65:38

Speaker A

Let's even give them, you know, a good word of promotion. I like how PharmLeague is organized. There were, I think, three conferences in a row where I noted down at least one talk, and then I actually implemented what I

65:50

Speaker A

learned. And Dima Kryazhev’s conference was also good once when he was putting it together. So, yes. And by the way, PharmProjections is the latest of everyone I've listed, yeah, I didn't leave anyone out. There. And then there’s, I don't know, whatever

66:05

Speaker A

Adam Smith turned into. Uh-huh. We’re big, we’re cool, we’re going to tell you how we’ll eat everyone up, and tell you about the new regulatory changes that we already know about without you. Right. Well, that happens.

66:17

Speaker A

I wanted to get back to the topic of training, specifically for medical representatives. How often are you brought in to train medical reps?

66:24

Speaker A

Rarely for medical reps; I usually decline. Well, I don't exactly decline. I have, well, it’s a bit below my level. I mean, I ask," What could I possibly tell you? "although, well, I do teach some things, mainly to KAMs on

66:35

Speaker A

working with pharmacy chains. Managers working with key accounts and so on, or commercial departments. And there, everything is clearly laid out. It's quite busy, especially in August and September—the subscription periods— so I was just having a meeting about

66:51

Speaker A

that today, I just got back. It was about how to work with pharmacy chains, their economics, and how they actually make money. It’s surprising, people can work in the market for 10 years and not understand the regulations or how it works. It's

67:03

Speaker A

ridiculous, they say:" If a drug is an EML (Essential Medicine List) generic, it must be in the pharmacy's inventory.

67:08

Speaker A

"I say, what? What? Well, meaning it's a company that has that drug in its portfolio.

67:14

Speaker A

I’m laughing, but honestly, I had a feeling I’d heard that somewhere, you know, references like," We absolutely have to stock the EML range. "I say, yes. Or, let's say, they say:" Well, you can't put whatever markup you want

67:25

Speaker A

on medicine. "I say:" Hold on, we live in Russia. "I say:" There's a capped one, and there's one where you can set anything. "He says:" Well, not 100%, surely. "I say:" Even 150, maybe even 200. "Yeah. I mean, this needs to be

67:37

Speaker A

explained, because I always say:" Guys, when you arrive, you’re a pharma manufacturer, you come to a pharmacy chain, the first thing you do, just open your POS material, close it, and leave it with the marketer. "And say:" Great POS. "But I kind of know it

67:50

Speaker A

myself, because you don't need to come and tell me. Someone showed a really good meme. So, it shows a factory, green grass, like that. We've been around for 250 years. Then the price tag starts. There, generic, you have to

68:01

Speaker A

pay 10%. There, we work according to all ethical standards, that's already 20%. I mean, why do you start telling them all this? The owner is already falling asleep from all that stuff.

68:10

Speaker A

There is a very simple example. I’m sharing how you should talk to a pharmacy chain. You come in, open the door, they say something like:" Can you ? Can't you? "They say," Listen to me, "they say," I have a very short

68:20

Speaker A

question. "No, just one question. Do you like money? I’ll answer for you:" Yes, I came to talk about money. I came to bring you money. And just forget about the drugs, forget about the drugs , whatever you might see in them.

68:34

Speaker A

Let’s talk about the terms. "And there's this double-blind, what kind of double-blind placebo-controlled study.

68:39

Speaker A

No pharmacological characteristics are of interest. That’s not the office of any chain. I’ve never heard a discussion where someone says:" Did you hear? It hit the market, there's this inhibitor of something or other with specific uptake, selective release

68:54

Speaker A

there. "No one is interested in that at all. In short, the story is this: this one pays 30, that one 50. Who are we taking? That’s it. And only after you’ve reached an agreement can you say:" By the way, we were talking about

69:05

Speaker A

money, you’re already having tea. " You say:" And we also have selective release. "Do you realize what that’s going to be? Your patients—or, as you call them, visitors—will even say" Thank you "for that. Instead, they start rattling on:" We have these

69:17

Speaker A

studies, we're the best, "—well, just like they came to see a doctor. Come on , guys, you're missing the point, you're killing interest right from the start. And they just don't know how— well, not all of them, but a certain

69:27

Speaker A

part, excuse me, a certain part doesn't know how to talk about money. They don't even understand how a pharmacy chain makes money.

69:32

Speaker A

Don't you think that’s a question of Russian mentality, to some extent? No, it's a question, again, well, it's not greed here, it's a question of laziness. Meaning you don't even try to immerse yourself in it. I actually think this could be brought up now, too

69:44

Speaker A

. Wait, this is going to be offensive. I like saying certain offensive things. The fact is, many KAMs think they are good salespeople.

69:52

Speaker A

Uh-huh. Well, they say:" I represent such companies, such drugs, I've been in the market for a long time, and so on. " Guys, I'm not so sure about that. I'm not sure you're good salespeople. Try selling something else, not a drug. I

70:03

Speaker A

mean, you show up with a giant company behind you, and you're essentially just a conduit for information. At the very least, you’re just bringing an offer of some kind. But if you had to—now imagine, put yourself in the shoes of

70:16

Speaker A

someone bringing an unknown medicine to this pharmacy. You won't be able to sell it using the methods you use at Bayer, Servier, Sanofi, and the others.

70:25

Speaker A

Let's formulate your vision of the signs of a good KAM. Let's do three. Let it be clickbait.

70:31

Speaker A

They talk about money. Uh-huh. That's the first one. An excellent knowledge of the internal workings of the pharmacy chain. The specificity of who they work with, and who is responsible for what. That’s probably the second. And, well, in a good way,

70:44

Speaker A

flexibility, or rather, ambition. Well, in that sense, maybe the third one isn't very successful, but the first one, I think—I think it's quite legitimate: an ambitious person who understands, sets goals for themselves, and understands how to reach them and

70:57

Speaker A

whether it's realistic or not. I think that should work just fine, too. And also, you know, a very important point, perhaps even for point one. Lazy in a good way. You know, there’s bad lazy, and there’s lazy in a good way.

71:08

Speaker A

The kind who wants to walk into a pharmacy, close a deal once, have it run for a year, and just sit at home doing nothing.

71:13

Speaker A

That’s about the third point. This is a mandatory point, for sure. That’s a good medical rep, a really good one. Setting up business efficiently, in a good sense. I always went into negotiations with five proposals. And why did I go with five?

71:27

Speaker A

I’d show up and say," Here is the first offer. "Everyone would say," Are you kidding? "They’d say," No, of course not. "I’d say," I understand, that’s why I’m already moving to the second offer. "They’d ask," How many more do you have? "I’d tell them

71:37

Speaker A

I’m already at my last option. They’d say," Well, I wouldn’t want to go with the last one. "I’d say," Okay, let’s go with the third option.

71:42

Speaker A

"They’d respond," Alright, we agree, and so on. "Even though you had five. That’s it, we got everything done in one meeting. I didn't see that client again until the following year. Why would I need to go back, for what

71:50

Speaker A

purpose? I believe that is the right approach. The main thing is to stay in touch, send birthday wishes, and so on.

71:55

Speaker A

A KAM must stay in contact, but meeting them to do business isn't always necessary. A brief lyrical digression now, more about a book. A friend of mine recommended a book titled" Watch Out, Doors Are Opening. "It was written

72:09

Speaker A

by a business coach and it’s about sales. And there are some things in there too. I work in sales myself and occasionally read some literature on the topic. And the qualities mentioned there really match what I said, so it

72:23

Speaker A

triggered a flashback. I thought," Oh, it's just like the book. "It’s especially relevant and interesting right now. By the way, if anyone wants to read the book, I recommend it; I’ll put it in the description later.

72:36

Speaker A

Has your attitude toward sales changed at all? Like, from when you started to when you became a Ph.D. in Economics, and later on...

72:45

Speaker A

How did your sales change? Let’s look at how it reconfigured and evolved, right? Yes. Your attitude toward sales.

72:54

Speaker A

My attitude toward sales, or how I sold things, or what do you mean? Let’s look at sales as a concept, how your philosophy has changed overall?

73:00

Speaker A

Well, in many ways, yes, when I criticize someone, I also criticize myself, because I'm also fully convinced that I sell everything perfectly and so on. Then a few such collisions, well, kind of reflections, and you think:" Yeah, I

73:10

Speaker A

did that part wrong. "I have a very good example, one pharmacy chain brought me in, and I worked with it, 1,000 pharmacies. Uh, I made fully automated pricing for 1,000 pharmacies.

73:20

Speaker A

They paid me a certain amount, yes, well, in principle, they underpaid me a little, but they nitpicked at a letter in the contract. They underpaid me by a decent amount, but they did nitpick.

73:29

Speaker A

And they nitpicked honestly based on the contract, like, yes, it was possible, it was somewhere during those Covid times, those peaks. They said:" Well, this peak was related to this and that, you have it written like this, so

73:38

Speaker A

sorry, we won't pay you for this. " And then, some time later, the owner tells me:" And also, "he says," some guys came by, and they offered and named this kind of service. "He says:" I know it’s worse than yours. "And by

73:47

Speaker A

the way, they cost, let me see, even if they had paid me in full, they were five times more expensive, I think, wow . I am fully convinced that you are such a cool salesperson. But I was just

73:55

Speaker A

told that not only did they not pay you the full amount, but they later sold the project to one of the pharmacy chains that no longer exists. And I saw what the results were, basically nothing. So I was very surprised.

74:05

Speaker A

That’s why you need to focus on sales . It’s necessary to perhaps even have a separate person do this, who is specifically focused on it. Yes, by the way, I also have a colleague on my team who is quite young. And you think:" Wow

74:20

Speaker A

, how does he manage to find a common language and reach an agreement when I’ve been talking to the client for a long time? "I can just call him and say :" Hi, and we'll chat. "And I haven't

74:29

Speaker A

sold him anything in a long time, but he called and made a sale on the first try. How is that even possible? Well, there you go. And, uh, as for sales, let's say in pharmacies, they teach the wrong things, the wrong way, not quite

74:41

Speaker A

correctly. Well, maybe because it’s really not that easy, not that easy to objectively explain to someone that they came for drug X, but you’re switching them to drug Y. There should be specific pharmacy sales techniques for that. I suggest, yes, I have books

74:54

Speaker A

where some of these are described. Maybe something new needs to be offered too, but in short, it’s a living topic. It’s a living topic. It’s constantly changing. And here you need to take off your crown and understand that sales are evolving, you need to

75:07

Speaker A

look for new channels. Why do you think we have a negative connotation for terms like" huckster " or" salesman, "that is It was banned for 80 years.

75:18

Speaker A

Well, yeah, Yes. No, on one hand, people got used to it, sure, listen, and many things are still seen as" capitalist, "just because if you earn money, you're bad.

75:26

Speaker A

It just sort of turned out that way. No , it’s probably not just 80 years. I think it was in the culture as a whole.

75:32

Speaker A

Oh, now I’m hitting my favorite topic . It's all here Russian literature, and not just any, but all of Russian literature. Name one single successful businessman character from Russian literature.

75:47

Speaker A

They were all They are losers. All losers. All losers . And apart from Oblomov, who was that German guy? We don't even remember him.

75:54

Speaker A

And everyone says," Well, he sold out for money, yeah, he's a good guy, at least he did something in life instead of lying on the couch. "There you have it. Your history. They traumatized us in school, forgive me, they really

76:05

Speaker A

traumatized us. Reading all that Russian literature, which should be read at a different age, and some works shouldn't be read at all, because...

76:14

Speaker A

because Not 80, but 280 years, right? Yeah, yeah, something like that. And that's it. So, well, indeed, it’s not in the cultural code. And then, why doesn't this...well, sort of happen?

76:23

Speaker A

Why don't people invent things there? And where are all our entrepreneurs? Well, I’ll say it again, read Russian literature and, essentially, the school curriculum, and what's left of it. The school curriculum is still, in many ways, Soviet, and then in history, too,

76:35

Speaker A

right? Okay, try to recall at least one entrepreneur from history. Well, let’s say up until 1917, we know something. An entrepreneur?

76:43

Speaker A

We know Suvorov, sure, no questions there. We know Kutuzov, Peter the Great , an entrepreneur.

76:48

Speaker A

Mhm. But we did have patrons. Mamontov, Morozov, two patrons. Those types exist, right? You can tell right away, he's a philology guy, a philology guy.

76:59

Speaker A

So, uh, that’s probably where it comes from. Well, you have to carry that calmly. I think that's, well, okay , just the way it is. In other countries, they are coming to this now.

77:06

Speaker A

On the contrary, they have an excessive leftist agenda, the kind we already recovered from; we have a good immunity . They don't have that. So, well, it's something like that.

77:14

Speaker A

Uh-huh. It is what it is. The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on. Well, that's true. I wanted to talk about the fact that we have laziness and greed. And stupidity. You can't do without stupidity. Plus stupidity. We

77:26

Speaker A

have automatic pricing here, all sorts of automation and the like. And technologies are actively being implemented in some places, approaching in others, while in some places they are talked about a lot, but no one has seen how they work or what they provide

77:38

Speaker A

. In the economy, specifically in the pharmacy and manufacturing sectors, there are some shifts in terms of AI and some really serious, good automation and optimization, where algorithms solve tasks with super high quality, and a person only steps in to

77:55

Speaker A

look at the big picture, like the P&L or something else. If you had asked me probably two months ago, I would have said:" No, I don't see anything. "And I can explain why.

78:05

Speaker A

And I can even tell you now why I don't see it. But there are positive results as well. So, why don't I see it?

78:13

Speaker A

Because AI—any models—they help me often with analytics now. I mean, when I need to process something quickly, I wrote code in quotes for the first time in my life when I needed to do something that Excel could no longer

78:27

Speaker A

handle. I sent a prompt, and it told me :" Just put this together in Python, add this, add that, click here and there, and it will give you the result.

78:34

Speaker A

"And it actually processed my database and gave me the result. I spent 10 minutes on it. It was a real wow effect . I wrote some code, yeah, well, I wrote it, I understand what it is, but the result was correct, I checked it

78:46

Speaker A

later. So. But that’s not the point. The point is that it only answers the questions you ask. Uh, I’ve been, you could say, engaged in—well, you wouldn't call it research—uh, I’ve been curious, let's put it that way, about what this or that engine would

79:00

Speaker A

recommend doing with a pharmacy chain if I gave it certain results. And I, of course, laughed for a long time at what it gives back. It basically gives recommendations that I would have given back in 2010. Well, why? Because it

79:10

Speaker A

learns from those results. It says:" You must identify the best-selling products. Thanks, Captain Obvious.

79:15

Speaker A

Place them in the best spots. "Wow. Yeah. It says, basically, let’s summarize what it will recommend to you . You need to work a high-paying job very hard and conscientiously. Great idea, really. That's it, that's Admiral Yasin already,

79:27

Speaker A

yeah. So that’s the idea. And it—it might suggest you do some analyses or various other things. It doesn’t know what to do. But, but if you know what needs to be done—that is, when I had a specific algorithm—I take raw data

79:43

Speaker A

from the pharmacy chain (I don't call it" primary data, "just raw data), everything is mixed up in there, and it could have been processed in various ways. I have employees I give these tables to, and they spend 2-3 days

79:56

Speaker A

grinding away at them, but it turns out you can do it in 10 minutes. I input this instruction, which I have written out in detail, on what needs to be done with this report. And, well, zip, zap, zip, zap, this AI thing spits something

80:08

Speaker A

out. That’s cool. I mean, that’s cool. It doesn’t replace you. You give it questions, and it gives you answers, but you’ve received that data. You’re the one interpreting the data. You shouldn't trust its interpretation, because it will just

80:19

Speaker A

say:" Everything is fine "or something else. Well, anyway, all of this, like, I realize I can do this because I can ask those questions. I’m not sure, but that is the key point. There are many answers, but few questions.

80:31

Speaker A

That’s still this meme. It has remained just like that. But what did I see? In Uzbekistan, there is a company called FOM, which I highly recommend.

80:44

Speaker A

And they have a very good slice of information for the entire market. Well , because they have a software product, and their software product is installed in the pharmacy chain, yes. You basically see all the sales, all of it.

80:53

Speaker A

You see all the details. And I needed to extract some information to prepare for a presentation. I’ll even tell you what kind of price regulation they have going on. They implemented it on July 1st, and for the presentation, I

81:08

Speaker A

needed to see how product sales would change if the price changed, how the market would hold up, and how tax revenues would decrease. These are very serious answers for government agencies , and you simply won’t get them without data. Well, there is data. Okay

81:20

Speaker A

, you have the data, an array, an absolutely giant array. What can you do ? Well, we spent less than a day, less than a workday, on data collection. I mean, I said I need this, I said I have

81:30

Speaker A

this hypothesis, and this one, let’s check them. We checked, some hypotheses were dropped immediately, others weren't. Well, we saw the results of what would happen if, and we showed this presentation—well, not we, a colleague did, of course, I moderated

81:42

Speaker A

it—to a representative of the Ministry of Health. He said," Okay, please, take this presentation with all these studies, we will use it in... "" ...in our developments. "So it really can be a huge help. The question is whether there will be questions,

81:58

Speaker A

whether someone will be there, that is, data purity and whether you know how to ask questions. I am absolutely calm in this sense. Humanity has shown good examples. We can fail any technology.

82:10

Speaker A

Therefore, regarding AI, how AI is primarily used now, let's not say, yes, it's indecent. What is it mainly used for?

82:18

Speaker A

For 90 or however many percent? So everything is fine, we move on. All gadgets are used one way or another to get dopamine.

82:29

Speaker A

Well, yes. But on the other hand, if you set up processes and automation, you can certainly do it, roughly like in the example with the market. Well, these are huge arrays that you can twist, turn, and pull out super

82:46

Speaker A

insights from. I work with pharmacy chains in Uzbekistan, and it's getting ridiculous when a pharmacy chain says," Listen, it takes us too long to look at our data, and we don’t want to give away our data completely. "They say," Maybe you

82:55

Speaker A

can quickly ask your sources about the market in general with this kind of question. "I write," Guys, can this be done? "I get a ready answer in literally 10-15 minutes. That’s it, you see, this used to take a lot of

83:05

Speaker A

time. So you get an answer, for example , for the whole market: what was the average price of such and such a product? Okay, so we have data showing that at some point the price dropped, I don't know, by 20%. How do we increase

83:16

Speaker A

sales? The answer is immediate: we don't. The question: why should we lower prices for this drug? You see, it’s just an instantaneous answer.

83:21

Speaker A

But you have to ask this question, because if you don't, you know what an AI will answer. Actually, when you lowered the price, you didn't just fail to grow sales, you gained customer loyalty. Why? Because somewhere in its

83:33

Speaker A

massive dataset, it read that there is such a thing as customer loyalty. God knows what that even is. It's not in the balance sheet. But everyone talks about it. So it must be important.

83:40

Speaker A

Include everything. And you're like," Yes, customer loyalty is important. "By the way, I recommend everyone find this line in a balance sheet. Customer loyalty, brand commitment. We should put that in there too. What else is there? Price loyalty,

83:55

Speaker A

yes. And all the other stuff related to prices, there's a lot of it. Yeah, yeah , yeah, exactly, and so on. Okay, don't take the bread out of their mouths, I get it.

84:02

Speaker A

From the people who sell all this stuff yes. Well, here, as guys who mainly specialize in performance marketing, we're ready to sit down and talk a bit about media, about how it's structured.

84:16

Speaker A

Nothing. Well, from an advertising perspective, I don't know, you can track, say, all your competitors. Catch stockouts for someone.

84:26

Speaker A

Oh, evil. You saw a stockout, you raised your bids, and you run more on competitive traffic. You can definitely do all sorts of mechanics like that.

84:35

Speaker A

And that's where the AI and all the scrapers come in, data exports for the scrapers. It’s not just an AI, it’s me, for example, I work with a distributor, they do the pricing. We have a very simple story. Alright,

84:46

Speaker A

let's say it publicly. A very simple story. I monitor this morning who has what inventory, or not who has what inventory, but who has the product in stock and who doesn't. And I look at the history, too, right? Meaning,

84:56

Speaker A

it’s not just that it was out of stock today, maybe it's been missing for a long time. And accordingly, if it’s usually at five distributors, but today it's only at two, I will never set the first price for this

85:05

Speaker A

product, always the second. And the second one can differ by 10 to 15%. For a distributor, that’s a colossal markup. How will sales change?

85:12

Speaker A

Practically not at all. So, previously we were always striving for the first price for the distributor. I set a second price here, well, I sell for, I don’t know, 10%less, but the margin is significantly higher, I mean, it

85:22

Speaker A

could be an order of magnitude more. That, again, is the right question to ask: what am I looking for? I mean, it's there.

85:29

Speaker A

By the way, that’s how I tracked sales back in the day, either at Katren or Protek. They had a very interesting feature. You would add a product to the cart and set the quantity, Uh-huh.

85:39

Speaker A

say, 10,000. And it would tell you:" No , we only have 2,793 packs left. " Cool, that's cool.

85:45

Speaker A

And you write a parser. Well, they shut that loophole down, but we wrote a parser, and it checked a few times a day, collecting numbers to track the dynamics. And based on how the stock quantities were decreasing, brilliant.

85:59

Speaker A

And by region, you could roughly understand what was happening with competitors 'sales, how much they sell per day or week.

86:04

Speaker A

And Ruslan, do you know why it’s brilliant? Because it was Protek. In other markets, this is open information . Colleagues, we are coming for you.

86:14

Speaker A

That’s it, now I know how to find out the quantities for those distributors who just list specific numbers. Great, that’s a good thought. And that, again, brings us back to the question.

86:24

Speaker A

Is it necessary to ask the question? Well, people mentioned parsing; we could, for example, even if it's not online sales, parse apteka.ru, Zdravcity, and so on.

86:32

Speaker A

I think they’ve all locked down their systems as much as possible because Fine, it doesn't matter, you can parse it if you really want to. Well, we could hire inexpensive employees to do it all manually. Is it possible? Can I

86:43

Speaker A

ask a question? Why do you need those numbers? To what end? What are you going to do with them?

86:47

Speaker A

I’ll know the price for drug X at a competitor and make it a ruble cheaper.

86:52

Speaker A

Great idea. And how many sales do you have for this product per month? One pack. So, what does it matter that you made it a ruble cheaper? Why?

86:58

Speaker A

And so on. I mean, yes, I understand, it works by slightly different rules, yes, slightly different, but pharmacies specifically are still at this level.

87:06

Speaker A

They say:" If only we had parsing now, if we knew everyone's prices, we would crush them all. "Why? For some of your products, it doesn't matter at all what they cost at the pharmacy next door. It can be more expensive, much more

87:15

Speaker A

expensive. I mean, well, that's the next question you need to ask. Okay, so it's cheaper in your pharmacy. And you know what the next simple question is:" How much are they selling? "" And how many customers are there? "" And what's

87:24

Speaker A

the growth trend? "" And so on. "And so , is the game worth the candle and the whole endeavor, does it make sense?

87:29

Speaker A

Yes. And how much will you earn if you sell the product cheaper than your competitor?

87:33

Speaker A

Ah, that’s interesting. We have a traditional question we ask our guests. Maybe you’ve noticed it from previous episodes. If there were—well, I don’t even know if I can ask you about one thing in pharma, if there was an opportunity to change something,

87:47

Speaker A

what would you change? But I feel like it invites more than just one. And it seems like a second question could be not just in pharma, but in pharmacy chains or pharmacies.

87:57

Speaker A

No, let's, let's actually focus on pharmacy chains, since that is your professional field. Well, I need to think for a second. I'll say, maybe some concept or some process that has historically developed this way, and it’s been okay for everyone for

88:13

Speaker A

years and decades. Ah, well, in that sense, I’ll speak as a consumer, because professionally, I don’t really want to change anything. Let them keep it that way, and I’ll come in and do what’s necessary, it will just cost a million

88:25

Speaker A

bucks. There. And that is correct. And you will get an awesome competitive advantage, and make money on it. But what really needs changing is the actual process of selling and dispensing the goods, I don't mean consulting and so on. A simple example.

88:40

Speaker A

Go to my least favorite Pyaterochka, Dixy, Magnit, and so on. Look at how the cashier works and look at how the format works. At that point, I have nothing more to say. No, there are pharmacies where it’s not bad, it

88:51

Speaker A

goes very fast, but in general, the very moment after the consultation, once the product is clear and it’s just lying there, you need to ring it up and take payment, and it’s like they intentionally start slowing down.

89:02

Speaker A

Either the terminal doesn't work, or there’s a tiny window where you’re trying to shove everything through.

89:08

Speaker A

Well, guys, from this point on, pharmacies are losing a lot of time specifically on customer service. Not in the sense of consultation, but the non-marginal actions. You should be able to take the money quickly and hand over the product quickly. And this is

89:23

Speaker A

characteristic of the entire post-Soviet space. Electronic payments have actually sped it up. But back when they were still searching for pennies, it was a total disaster.

89:30

Speaker A

So, essentially, some kind of process optimization. Well yes, I am again, you see, speaking from my own perspective. Everything else. And as for the rest, you know, joking aside, it’s easier to burn everything down and start over. Well,

89:42

Speaker A

changing the layout is hopeless because you have to start from scratch; this place is cursed, so to speak. You need to start with the sales floor, and there’s so much more to it. But that doesn't annoy anyone.

89:53

Speaker A

Well, and, well, I assume there's a lot of money in eye-level displays, right, in the checkout area. Either stagnant items or things that need to be pushed.

90:02

Speaker A

And the question, now the next question . We ask the following one. We always have a question. Yes, by the way, that’s a hallmark of a good manager.

90:08

Speaker A

They don't just ask one question, they dig two or three levels deeper. Here is the second question. Have you verified it? I liked one manager, by the way, when he said:" Have you verified it? " He told his employees," So, there’s

90:18

Speaker A

this hypothesis. "And I said," What? "" Well, I checked, and drugstore displays don't work; whatever you put out, private label or not, the efficiency of this display is barely more than zero.

90:28

Speaker A

"It's just that they pay for it. Well, since they pay for it, we will display it. And back in the 2010s, a very interesting pharmacy format appeared.

90:35

Speaker A

Ladushki, my respects, they were even around before 2010, there was that pharmacy chain and Farmakopeika, where there's a pharmacist and no display cases. Just a small counter. A small counter.

90:46

Speaker A

I think that’s a Siberian chain. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. So, that was a" wow . "And it was a" wow "effect because why spend money on space if that space doesn't work anyway? There’s your pharmacist, they will sell you

90:57

Speaker A

everything themselves. Moreover, it's easier to manage. I mean, you don't have anything on display. You come in, ask the pharmacist directly, and you don't waste time. Class. That concept is good in that sense. Why optimize something that doesn't work?

91:10

Speaker A

That’s a bit of a dilettante question . If the display is open, the average receipt grows, in general.

91:15

Speaker A

It used to grow, it used to grow. In 2010, it was truly a breakthrough, it was a breakthrough. Yes. Yes. It doesn't grow now. Let's take a look.

91:22

Speaker A

This is what I always talk about, and everyone says," Yeah, yeah. "And nothing changes. First, yes. So, what should be the question for the customers? A pharmacy, open display.

91:34

Speaker A

What should be displayed on the open shelves in a pharmacy? The keyword is pharmacy.

91:40

Speaker A

Everything that is not RX. Here's the cigarette. That's it, your words are golden. Medicine. Let's go to the nearest pharmacy. What's on display there? Everything except medicine. We need to sell cosmetics, after all. I surely went to the

91:53

Speaker A

pharmacy for cosmetics. I really want to touch and look at it. Yes, I need to find a cold remedy. I want to see it, hold it in my hands, and that's it. I mean, I'm not saying cosmetics shouldn't be on display there or

92:02

Speaker A

anything, they should. But your main anchor is medicine. Accordingly, medicines should be on display. That's the first thing. Well, the second thing is lighting. But that's a weak point for retail in general, and for pharmacies in particular.

92:14

Speaker A

I thought I was the only one who thought that. I thought it was like, I don't know, maybe some standards or a conspiracy of pharmacy chains, that there's some problem with lighting in pharmacies. I'm serious.

92:25

Speaker A

No one thinks about it. Manstorev had good lighting in Vladivostok, though, not this. Well, as for smells, fine, let's not get into that. And also the musical message. You walk into a pharmacy, it's silent, you want to say,

92:37

Speaker A

" Sorry for interrupting you. "It feels like a place of suffering where they want you to leave. Again, not everyone is like that, some are good, but in general, they're all focused on optimization. On the other hand, who is

92:50

Speaker A

this customer to dictate to respected pharmacy chains, which work with pharmaceutical manufacturers, how to sell drugs?

92:57

Speaker A

Uh-huh. Whether the medicine is on display for you or not. Now they'll replace it for you and you go, enjoy life. Maybe they'll even give it to you without a prescription. That's it, come on in.

93:05

Speaker A

And they aren't shy, they say:" Well, if they don't come to us, someone else will, nothing terrible will happen. " In essence, it's a service function, right? Came, picked it up.

93:13

Speaker A

Service function. This is, look, a classic problem of secondary business, when the secondary business wins.

93:18

Speaker A

That's why I say that large pharmacy chains are facing a serious structural crisis, sooner or later it will happen.

93:24

Speaker A

Well, it's like a kind of bubble that's inflating. Remember there used to be certain magazines, right? I mean, they were interesting to read, and there were some ads there too—terrible things. I mean, you read magazines, or whatever sites, where you open them up

93:34

Speaker A

and read, and there's some ads, and then they're like:" let's have more ads , let's have even more, "and now it's:" let's have this much advertising and just this much content. "And that's it.

93:43

Speaker A

Where are those magazines now, and where are those news sites, by the way, that went down that path. The pharmacy industry is following roughly the same path.

93:52

Speaker A

I wanted to ask you that question, I was just thinking how to fit it in.

93:56

Speaker A

Regarding industry media in general, magazines in particular. Do you think there's any hope that some holdings or media outlets might reboot, launch a pharmacy magazine or some kind of new outlet about the industry as a whole?

94:10

Speaker A

Because it feels like the new ones that appeared have also slid into constant advertising. And even some digital publications have turned into an ad conveyor belt, and not always high-quality ones, by the way.

94:23

Speaker A

I have an opinion on that. So, first, uh, a narrow audience, and you have to make money off of it somehow. A narrow audience can't give you enough money, someone has to pay you, so naturally you start on

94:35

Speaker A

that advertising. Since the audience is small, you don't get as much for ads as you'd like. That's all there is to it.

94:41

Speaker A

And it's a vicious circle. Meaning our audience is very narrow. Moreover, no matter how much we might laugh at all this, this audience has, first of all, already gotten used to all these industry conferences, let's go here, and these publications, and so on. We

94:54

Speaker A

might look at them through the eyes of a different market and say:" Ha-ha-ha, look at you, "but, forgive me, they are earning money and have existed for many years. And good for them, they've basically adapted to their own reader.

95:06

Speaker A

So, why not? Therefore, I don't see any prerequisites for this—uh, let's put it this way—swamp, in the good sense of the word. The pharmacy market swamp —I'm in the swamp myself—to change significantly. I mean, tectonic shifts would have to occur that would simply

95:23

Speaker A

change everything. Like a sharp change in legislation, I don't know, for example, allowing the sale of medicines in grocery supermarkets. That's it, it would just sweep everything away. Well, so far there are no such prerequisites.

95:36

Speaker A

Well, that's why everything is cozy in its own way. The same people who were writing 20 years ago will still be writing, they'll just have slightly different titles. Well, that's great.

95:45

Speaker A

Sometimes outsiders like me pop up, who jumped in from another little world, yeah. With some kind of fresh perspective, perhaps, or something like that. That's how it should be, I think.

95:55

Speaker A

In this sense, it's easier; jumping into another market would probably be worse and harder, I assume.

96:00

Speaker A

There you go. Yes, here it's like, wow, something unusual. Interesting. Why not ? It is interesting, yes.

96:08

Speaker A

Well, now for another equally important , relevant, and painful topic: the shortage of front-line pharmacists and staff in general, we could discuss that too. What do you see, what do you observe, what surprises you, and what doesn't?

96:21

Speaker A

Let's start with the economics. Let's. So, uh, let's wind back 10 or 15 years. How many packs did the pharmaceutical market sell? Can we look up that figure ? We can. How many more packs does the pharma market sell now? Not by much. I

96:36

Speaker A

mean, again, there are specially trained people who will show you, but it's not twice as much in packs. Not twice as much.

96:43

Speaker A

How many pharmacies were there 15 years ago? There were more of them. Fewer. Much, pharmacies were much, much fewer. Pharmacies were much fewer.

96:52

Speaker A

Fewer. And now there are far more of them. What is the result? The same volume in packs—and we are looking at the whole country very pragmatically—is being sold through a much larger number of pharmacies.

97:05

Speaker A

So, from the perspective of the entire market system, as scientists or researchers, we realize that we've actually moved toward inefficiency over these 15 years. Conventionally speaking , 40,000 pharmacies used to sell this X volume of drugs, and now 80,000

97:21

Speaker A

pharmacies sell that same volume. Why are these people working, why did these pharmacies open, and so on and so forth . The idea is clear, right? So, the next question. This is still a question as researchers. I understand why they

97:34

Speaker A

opened, and that all suits me fine. Now moving on. The next question is very simple. We know how many pharmacies we have. We know that a pharmacy should have a manager, in theory, and at least two staff members, yes, and so on.

97:47

Speaker A

Yes, let's look. It turns out that the number of pharmacists doesn't match the number of...well, the positions available. That is a serious question, indeed. And the next thing we can go and look at is what comes next. What

97:59

Speaker A

will happen next? By the way, do you think there will be more information later or not? How much in demand is the profession among applicants right now?

98:07

Speaker A

It seems to me, well, less; objectively , it feels like less in demand. Let me answer that. So, when I was applying for pharmacist, they claimed, I don't know, that there were almost 10 people per spot at our university. Well

98:19

Speaker A

, I was a boy, it was easier for me. And, uh, now there's a shortage.

98:24

Speaker A

There are more state-funded spots than, well, all the pharmacy schools are trying to get ahead of it; people—no, not people, applicants—aren't taking chemistry. And without chemistry, that track is immediately closed to you.

98:39

Speaker A

That’s one thing. In short, there will be fewer pharmacists. Now let's think about this. Personnel shortage.

98:45

Speaker A

If there aren't many of someone on the market, it means they are in demand. If they are in demand, what can they do?

98:50

Speaker A

Well, let's keep thinking. Imagine you're a marketer, you need 100 marketers, but there are only three of you. What will we do? As marketers, we are hired employees. We need 100, but there are three of us.

99:03

Speaker A

We, well, we won't fill 30 jobs, but we'll combine them. Yeah, we don't have to. Why? No, why combine them? You say:" Well, put me down for private health insurance. " Uh-huh.

99:15

Speaker A

Rent an apartment near work. Well, you know, so I can devote more time and energy to you. I want a company car, an electric car is better now, and further , well, definitely an off-site training , well, somewhere in the Dominican

99:25

Speaker A

Republic; by the way, that used to happen. So, in short, you start dictating the terms, normal terms, a normal situation, because the employee market now—in the pharmacy market, it's an employee's market—there aren't enough pharmacists. And what do we see? They manage to whine about how

99:42

Speaker A

bad things are, how awful it is for them, that nothing is working out for them—and indeed, it's not working out . We're required to sell private label products and so on. And then in the respected community, the Soviet-style

99:51

Speaker A

Romon, they complain about how bad everything is. Well, they're right to complain. Guys, do you know who's to blame? We have to show who's to blame.

99:58

Speaker A

It's not the pharmacy chains that are to blame. The one in the mirror is to blame.

100:01

Speaker A

The one in the mirror is to blame. Friends, if there are only a few of you , just imagine—I'm not giving anyone any ideas, just saying. Just imagine, in one of the pharmacy chains, maybe in Krasnodar, pharmacists suddenly form a

100:13

Speaker A

union. Uh-huh. It's permitted by law. Can they be fired then? No, they are unfirable; they are just now...And now they say," All right, 12 hours a day doesn't work for us. "Let's start with ten, then bring it down to six, then a shower in

100:29

Speaker A

the pharmacy, and that's it. Why don't you do that? Well, simply because, as you said, who is who there, yeah, pharmacies are pushovers or something, relative to that. And the pharmacists feel the same:" Eh, if you aren't doing

100:42

Speaker A

anything, then okay, I won't do it either, I don't want to, this whole picture suits me, why would I want to lose the pharmacy chain market. "But in general, when there are few of you, I have a case in front of my eyes where

100:52

Speaker A

in one very respected domestic pharma company, several medical reps created a union. Uh, as far as I know, two years ago, uh, they were still listed as employees there, receiving a salary, and they had a company car. At the same

101:05

Speaker A

time, they hadn't shown up for work in five years. There. Because they couldn't be fired at all. I mean, well, they just created a union and that was it. I mean, this is a simple example of what the market

101:14

Speaker A

could do. I'm not, I mean, this is already kind of...employee-driven, let's call it extremism, of course, but overall, imagine if we had some kind of union in the industry, and the union demanded how to correctly recommend a drug, what color the coat should be,

101:30

Speaker A

and so on. Well, here's a point, at one of the meetings I was discussing this, and people complained that pharmacies hire people without a pharmaceutical education and the union says, so, listen, one day , get them out of here, or the pharmacy

101:43

Speaker A

closes. I don't care, one day, otherwise the union just doesn't show up for work. Your entire pharmacy will grind to a halt immediately, that the pharmacy is hiring.

101:52

Speaker A

I'm afraid that now there will be calls about this. What the hell are you doing ? And these are without special education. And moreover, almost nothing happens to pharmacies for this, practically. Well, there might be some, you know, inspections, but these are

102:06

Speaker A

just inspections. It's just pocket change for them. Yes. Yes. And even then, only after two or three visits to the pharmacy. I mean, these fines can be absolutely miserable . And in fact, this doesn't stimulate the pharmacy to change anything at all.

102:22

Speaker A

Well, right, and then the cycle continues. I have pharmacy chains that never hired those people. And it turns out that they now have those kinds of employees working there. My respected colleague. And I say:" How come? "" We

102:36

Speaker A

have such high standards. "He says:" Well, how? "Because, he says, my competitor is hiring and opening up right next to me. And what am I supposed to do? What am I supposed to do? I need to, and they are poaching my

102:44

Speaker A

employees. That's it. Let me remind you of one case. I worked at the call center of Samson-Pharma back when it was still Samson, when it was still Samson.

102:52

Speaker A

When it was still Samson. I have great respect for that. It was truly interesting. An interesting concept. I won't discuss whether, from a strategic point of view, opening those pharmacies was even necessary. But there was a principled stance that we wouldn't hire

103:09

Speaker A

people with medical degrees unless they were consultants. Meaning those who were strictly consultants, they could be hired for cosmetics, that is, dealing with pharma. We paid extra to those with pharmacy training, whether it was secondary specialized or higher

103:23

Speaker A

education, or rather, secondary specialized. And there was, well, some kind of salary grading. Now it's so blurred whether you have secondary specialized education or higher education. It might not affect the salary at all. It doesn't affect it. In

103:34

Speaker A

many pharmacies, it doesn't affect it. Moreover, I'll say:" Dear pharmacists and pharmacy technicians, forgive me, but I myself ask, why? " Why pay more? Explain to me, will he make better recommendations? No. That's it.

103:44

Speaker A

And as you said, education is being devalued. At that conference, I said:" Just wait and see. "But now there is a real push to have fewer people with higher education in the economy. And what to say about the pharmacy segment,

104:00

Speaker A

when you need to recruit as many fighters as possible, people in the pharmacy who could do their job. And why do we need 5 years to raise a pharmacist who will?

104:11

Speaker A

If there is a three-month course in nursing, well, just a person with a five-year education, and god forbid, it crosses their mind to go into residency and then into a pharmacy. Then it's a strange story, isn't it? That is

104:23

Speaker A

a very strange story. No, well, there's another point here. There is no demand from, let's call it, the population.

104:31

Speaker A

That is, yes, the profession is devalued, but it's obvious, excuse me, yes, and there is no demand, once again , from their side. I mean, can you imagine a situation where a person says in public:" Respectfully, I am a

104:43

Speaker A

pharmacist, "and everyone goes," Oh, " instead of saying," Well, just a pharmacist. "Well, that's it, the status is not high, accordingly, no one will go there. Well, because there is no social validation. There are probably other professions where social

104:58

Speaker A

validation is higher. Uh-huh. Well, that's normal, it’s nothing to worry about. That’s just how it always is.

105:03

Speaker A

We aren't finished. What do you think about the thesis on the changing of generations? About how some work, others don't, others don't want to work for little pay—the Gen Z or whatever.

105:13

Speaker A

Good for them. Exactly, good for them. If they can manage to get paid more, well, that’s great. It doesn’t bother me one bit. It's the market: someone offers a price, you turn it down. Well, okay, keep turning it down.

105:28

Speaker A

It seems like us millennials were sold the idea that you have to" hard work. " But if you think about it, what’s the " hard work "for?

105:35

Speaker A

What do you mean," what for "? You almost said it, right? For the sake of money. Well, for the sake of a good life. Meaning you worked well. Actually , people who really—no, there are many people who work hard, but those

105:47

Speaker A

who work hard and well, there might not be that many of them. Those professionals—you see them at these conferences sometimes, and you see that , in general, everything is going well for them. They were at one company, now

105:58

Speaker A

another, now a third. Their well-being, in the best sense of the word, is growing, they have a big family, everything. Why not? Those are the successful people. And the others can play computer games, mess around, and walk their dogs.

106:09

Speaker A

Well, by the way, since you work a lot, you probably also take quite a bit of time to rest and recover. How do you usually relax?

106:14

Speaker A

Sports, mostly. Right now, mainly sports and, I don't know, hiking, camping, and so on. That's it. What kind of sports?

106:21

Speaker A

All sorts. I swam across the Bosphorus last year. Oh, what is that? The Bosphorus is the strait between Asia and Europe.

106:28

Speaker A

So, I’m transcontinental. I can say I swam from one continent to another. I thought you said" bass sport. "I thought it was some new trendy thing. I didn't hear" Bosphorus. "Bosphorus. Yes .

106:37

Speaker A

What? Well, it's good you asked, because sometimes I say it and not everyone knows what kind of" Bosphorus "that is, right. Well, are there any creative projects or impulses, I don't know, like filming a documentary about pharmacy or something? Ah,

106:52

Speaker A

well, I'm just fantasizing, but I understand. No, I treat my work very creatively; I was just thinking recently that there are things in my work I don’t like, far from everything. Well, uh, I guess that’s how it’s supposed to be, right? Every

107:06

Speaker A

job has some tasty parts, less tasty parts, and parts that aren't tasty at all. And that tasty part is the creative process; I like writing books, I like writing something new. You can even see that sometimes in my Telegram

107:16

Speaker A

channel posts. I mean, if you see a post that’s quite snarky, well, I was in a good mood and it was interesting, but if it looks a bit labored, that means it’s a topic I’m less interested in—it shows. So, in that

107:28

Speaker A

sense, I don’t really change my mood. And yes, I like to write. I’ve always liked to write. Back in college, I used to write study guides; actually, I was always earning money that way. I mean, you shouldn't do it just for nothing.

107:40

Speaker A

There. Ah, yes. Well, the second point is that I genuinely enjoy earning money . As I said before, I like money, and I like earning it. I mean, for me, it's not so much that, strictly speaking, I need money as...No, of course, it's

107:52

Speaker A

needed as an economic element, as an element of freedom and so on, but for me, it’s a reflection of social recognition. Meaning, if I sold a service at a high price, it means the service is important, meaning I’ve

108:02

Speaker A

achieved something socially significant . By the way, I value that same service twice as much if it’s sold abroad. It doesn’t matter where. Because, you know, I feel like I'm contributing to my country's exports, you're welcome.

108:13

Speaker A

So, yes, you're welcome. You've acquired rubles for that account, right ? Now go ahead and pay for it in rubles . So, that’s like a separate checkmark for me; I get a thrill out of it. By my own internal rating, a ruble

108:24

Speaker A

earned abroad counts as two earned in Russia. Something like that. That doesn’t mean you can ask for a discount just because you're abroad. No , no. Did you ever have the idea of passing on your experience, like," I'll

108:36

Speaker A

make it up with this generation, "and tell them how to do something interesting? I have, well, I'm just lazy, to be honest, I'm just lazy. I mean, on one hand, you need a grateful student, someone who will absorb everything. On

108:54

Speaker A

the other hand, I have to be sure that I’m not teaching them something that won’t exist in a while. Like, I don’t know, say, there won’t be any pharmacies left, God forbid. And you spent all that time learning it, right?

109:04

Speaker A

I learned how to catch dragons, too bad I never met one in my life.

109:07

Speaker A

There. Uh, but my technologies are based on a specific concept, it's a particular economic or, in a sense, a philosophical concept. That’s it. And I am essentially developing it.

109:19

Speaker A

Essentially, I'm always talking about the same thing. A rational, I can even say it, a rational approach. A lot depends on you; competition doesn't exist. Uh, well, like, every point of yours needs to be profitable. And it's not important how an individual element

109:33

Speaker A

works, it's important how the system works as a whole. That’s it. Uh-huh. So it doesn't matter if one process is lagging, if it doesn't affect the whole , if it's not the limiting factor, then who cares if it works poorly. The fact

109:45

Speaker A

that we didn't implement AI, that our marketing is weak, that our product placement is bad. Who cares if our display is bad if we've squeezed the manufacturer for 70%, that's it, we've already earned, the display would have brought in another 15.5%. What parting

110:00

Speaker A

words would you have for our followers or viewers, well, viewers, followers, perhaps including your own followers, because I'm sure they will be watching you, well, they'll see you once more.

110:11

Speaker A

What advice would you give in terms of what you think might change? Today, I think our listeners and viewers were faced with the thesis that large pharmacies might disappear, for example .

110:25

Speaker A

Well, they will have, they could suddenly have problems. Let's actually restate this important thesis one more time. Look, there was this pharmacy chain, Megapharm.

110:32

Speaker A

It didn't sell any, well, pharmacies, well, it sold one and some others it didn't sell. There was Godovalov and Shavrin, they also dissolved. It will be the same with these big ones.

110:40

Speaker A

There’s just no one to buy them, nobody needs them. But at some point, when a huge structure stops, and it doesn't depend on the structure, but on external conditions, it stops making money, what can it bring? It's rental

110:53

Speaker A

spaces, it's some employees, expensive employees, by the way, right? And suddenly you stop, and it's a very, very low-margin business. I think we already mentioned Tinkov today. He has some lecture from 2012. Guys, he says, if you work in a business with 15%

111:08

Speaker A

profitability, you have big problems. We don't have 15. We don't have 15, guys. We have very big problems in this sense.

111:15

Speaker A

That is why, yes, I don't separate myself from this market in a certain sense. I mean, I understand that it threatens everyone.

111:21

Speaker A

That is why, well, it will follow this scenario, so we can expect a reduction in the number of retail outlets first and foremost.

111:27

Speaker A

And this might, on the contrary, even become a healthy recovery for the market. Perhaps, because in the outlets that remain, there will start to be an influx of customers or something else.

111:34

Speaker A

So, well, I look to the future optimistically for myself. I understand what I will be doing. I have a lot to keep me busy. I just hope I have enough time to make sure it all turns out well

111:45

Speaker A

for everyone. And I have a very good parting word. We live in Russia, everyone envies us.

111:50

Speaker A

It’s just across the board, as they used to say in one of those comedy shows. And the fact that if you’re used to it being calm, no, it will never be calm again. It will never be like it was before. Forget everything

112:03

Speaker A

you knew, studied, learned, and so on regarding all sorts of political and geopolitical issues. And that’s it.

112:10

Speaker A

Nothing will be like it is now. And let us wish for ourselves that it won't be like that, you know, like the New Year's wish in '25. What a good year 2025 was. Someone asks:" Why was it good? "In 2026, you'll understand.

112:24

Speaker A

That’s, that’s what it was like. Everything depends on us, on our good work. So, I suppose that’s it.

112:30

Speaker A

I think we can wrap it up here. Thank you very much. I think it was so interesting, lively, and we covered many topics, both superficially and not , and dug quite deep as well. I think our viewers and listeners will

112:46

Speaker A

definitely have something to reflect on , since our episode is also on audio platforms. Thank you once again very much. Everyone, please subscribe to Pavel’s channel, to my channel SlavanPVC, and to Yaroslav Koronsky's channel Digital. Thank you everyone.

113:03

Speaker A

Bye everyone. Write comments. I think maybe we’ll give away a book for the best comment or question.

113:10

Speaker A

Good proposal. We will choose unfairly. I always stipulate this here so that later people don't say:" That’s unfair. "I say:" We will choose based on the most unfair principle. " My job was to secure the book, and the

113:20

Speaker A

rest is up to you. Bye everyone. Bye-bye. Thank you. Goodbye. M.

Topics: pharmaceutical consulting pharmacy retail pharmaceutical education pharma market medical representatives pharmacy distribution customer loyalty pharma economics Russia pharmaceutical market pharmaceutical industry

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