**Harry Styles & Thom Yorke | Musicians on Musicians — Transcript & Summary | SozAI**
Source: https://sozai.app/transcript/harry-styles-thom-yorke-musicians/

Harry Styles and Thom Yorke discuss creativity, vulnerability, and the artist's perspective in an intimate Rolling Stone Musicians on Musicians interview.

## Key Takeaways

- Creativity thrives when artists stay connected to everyday experiences like walking and observing people.
- Fame brings challenges that can make artists feel vulnerable and disconnected from normal life.
- Repetition in art for commercial reasons can stifle creativity and authenticity.
- Enjoying the process and embracing starting over is crucial for sustained artistic growth.
- Vulnerability is inherent in songwriting but overcoming it leads to meaningful work.

## What the video covers

- Harry Styles and Thom Yorke share their first meeting and mutual admiration.
- They discuss the importance of walking and people-watching as creative tools.
- Both artists reflect on dealing with fame, security, and maintaining normalcy.
- They explore the pressure of commercial success and the challenge of repeating oneself creatively.
- The conversation highlights the struggle to keep art human amid artificial industry demands.
- Thom Yorke shares his experience with explaining his work and the mental toll it took.
- They emphasize the need to enjoy the creative process and start fresh with each project.
- Both artists acknowledge vulnerability during songwriting and the importance of perseverance.
- They discuss balancing public life with personal life, including parenthood and legacy.
- The interview ends with reflections on artistic perspective and continuous growth.

## Chapters

1. 00:00 First Meeting and Impressions
2. 03:50 Walking as an Artistic Practice
3. 08:22 Dealing with Fame and Security
4. 10:19 Pressure of Commercial Success
5. 12:13 Maintaining Humanity in Art
6. 14:13 Explaining Art and Mental Struggles
7. 16:43 Enjoying the Creative Process
8. 20:09 Vulnerability in Songwriting
9. 23:06 Balancing Public and Personal Life
10. 27:44 Artistic Perspective and Growth

Answers

## Questions about this video

How did Harry Styles and Thom Yorke first meet?

They first met in Rome on a small street before a show where Thom was playing with The Smile. Harry recognized Thom by his 'Acid' hat and stopped to greet him.

What role does walking play in their creative process?

Walking helps them stay connected to the world, inspires songwriting, and provides perspective by observing people and surroundings at ground level.

How do they handle the pressures of fame and commercial expectations?

They acknowledge vulnerability and pressure to repeat success but emphasize the importance of enjoying the creative process and starting fresh to maintain authenticity.

## Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown

00:00

Speaker A

- Do you travel with a laptop?

00:06

Speaker A

- My laptop has been dead for about six years.

00:23

Speaker A

I don't know where the charger is.

00:32

Speaker A

- We can help you with that.

00:37

Speaker A

- I know.

00:45

Speaker A

We met for the first time in Rome on a small street.

00:52

Speaker A

- Yes.

01:08

Speaker A

- You were playing in Rome that week with The Smile.

01:13

Speaker A

Yeah. So I'd just been talking about... I was going to that show. Was it before the show?

01:21

Speaker A

It was before the show. Yeah. And a friend of mine had asked me if we'd ever met and I had said that we hadn't.

01:25

Speaker A

So I was walking down the street and I noticed you because you were wearing a hat that said "Acid" on it.

01:31

Speaker A

And I thought, "Oh, that's a cool hat." And I was like, "That guy's wearing a cool hat." And then I was like, "Oh, it's you." And then I had Moonshape Pool playing in my headphones and I stopped it

01:49

Speaker A

and was like, "Oh, hello."

02:05

Speaker A

- Mr. York.

02:10

Speaker A

- Mr. York.

02:16

Speaker A

- Hello. I was impressed.

02:30

Speaker A

- And you said, "Oh, hi." And then—

02:36

Speaker A

- No, I said, "What the fuck?"

02:50

Speaker A

- Yeah. And—

02:59

Speaker A

- Then—

03:06

Speaker A

- Are you doing standing in the street?

03:26

Speaker A

- And then I came to the show and then we met kind of properly at the show.

03:32

Speaker A

- Yeah. I didn't know you were living in Rome a lot. I had no idea. So I was double confused.

03:42

Speaker A

- Yeah, it was really like, I think for me, through that and then the show, it had always been, you to me had always been that person I was kind of scared of meeting.

03:47

Speaker A

- Oh yeah, I've got a whole list.

04:05

Speaker A

- Yeah, totally. And I remember feeling so light afterwards, I think, of just, oh, people and they're kind and they're nice.

04:11

Speaker A

And it was very nice.

04:18

Speaker A

- I was also impressed that you were just walking down the street.

04:26

Speaker A

I was like, where's this security? Because I mean, I know I can do it.

04:33

Speaker A

I didn't know you could do it. Is that a choice?

04:40

Speaker A

- In the early days when I was in the band and stuff, so much of the hotel experience felt very locked in.

04:52

Speaker A

It felt like there was this, like, oh, it's not safe for me to be out in some way.

05:04

Speaker A

- Yeah, that—

05:09

Speaker A

- Makes sense.

05:18

Speaker A

- And then I remember I had a girlfriend who was very outgoing and she was coming to London and I was kind of like, oh, if we just sit in my house for three days, she's going to think I'm nuts.

05:29

Speaker A

So we kind of walked everywhere and it was this realization for me of like, oh, it's fine to be outside.

05:38

Speaker A

It kind of broke that thing. And then now it's changed my life in such a big way.

05:53

Speaker A

It's like how you stay connected to the world and the experience. And I read something about walking being the artist's kind of perspective because you're at ground level and you see things that you just don't see if you're driving.

06:00

Speaker A

- Everywhere. It's also a good way to write. I wrote "Wolf at the Door."

06:18

Speaker A

I was going through a really bad moment and I walked for like two and a half days, rain, didn't matter.

06:35

Speaker A

A notebook in my hand and just wrote all and I felt so much better at the end of it.

06:44

Speaker A

But also it's not just the walking, it's the walking past people. The simple thing of people watching, playing that game of imagining as someone walks by where they're going, what they're doing, all that stuff brings you out of yourself, brings you out of your troubles.

06:53

Speaker A

I mean, without it, see, it's really easy to get lost without being able to do that.

07:04

Speaker A

I guess I had a similar thing, but it happened for you very young, happened for me later.

07:19

Speaker A

But I remember when we were on tour with R.E.M. and Michael Stipe figuring out that...

07:27

Speaker A

I mean, well, it was kind of obvious because when we played, I would just hide in the dressing room before them and never went out anywhere or whatever.

07:55

Speaker A

So he started dragging me out and he gave me this trick. He said, "If you don't care, they don't care.

08:16

Speaker A

If you're not looking, they're not looking." And it works. I remember being in Stockholm going to some really busy club and he said, "Try it." And it works and nobody bothered us.

08:22

Speaker A

So there are moments when you will feel vulnerable. There are moments when shit will happen or the sun will be printing your picture one too many times and you'll not want it or something.

08:35

Speaker A

And I've had that. It's not an easy decision to make, but it's better than the alternative.

08:46

Speaker A

The alternative, I know people who got death threats and then wouldn't leave the house and had security patrolling their house to hold all that sort of stuff.

08:56

Speaker A

You don't want that. I think if you have something that's very successful, there's a lot of pressure to repeat that, which I'm sure you'll probably feel or you do feel sometimes.

09:02

Speaker A

It doesn't sort of go anywhere because that's like working to commission. You know what I mean? It's like we like those. Let's paint that—

09:17

Speaker A

- Again.

09:26

Speaker A

- Yeah. Could you do that? I remember some movies, some being drawn in to watch some clip of the movie, "We'd really like you to do something like this." And I was like, "Use that." That sort of mentality of like,

09:35

Speaker A

"We want your name at the top, but we'd like you to repeat yourself, but we don't want to ask you to repeat yourself because we know it's rude.

09:42

Speaker A

So we're kind of thinking about it's commercial art form, so therefore you're always going to get people asking you to do that."

09:48

Speaker A

- It's an interesting cycle, I think, because you make something that I think connects with people

09:58

Speaker A

because they find something in it that you've captured something about the human experience, whether it's a vulnerability or a sensitivity that comes with being human.

10:10

Speaker A

And then I think any kind of success around that thing makes it take on this life of its own.

10:19

Speaker A

Then everything around you kind of makes your experience incredibly not human and then moving—

10:27

Speaker A

- Yes, artificial.

10:32

Speaker A

- Yeah. And then it feels like the kind of goal is to how do you shut that out when you're making stuff so that you can still be making stuff about the human experience.

10:38

Speaker A

I've always thought if I was to make music about being in a studio and touring and all of the kind of shiny things that come with that and how wonderful that is—

10:48

Speaker A

- It's—

10:56

Speaker A

- Shiny for you, mate. It's—

11:00

Speaker A

- Not shiny very well. It's definitely not interesting to me, so it can't possibly be interesting to anyone else.

11:20

Speaker A

What I love about your work, for example, is for so many people who look at you in this way of in this kind of godlike status in terms of a creative—

11:35

Speaker A

- And—

11:50

Speaker A

- An artist to still be someone who kind of looks at,

12:02

Speaker A

oh, this is the gritty part of life. I think that's what's so impressive about so much of your work is that for people to revere you in such a way—

12:08

Speaker A

- And to—

12:13

Speaker A

- Still be looking at what's under the fingernails rather than...

12:23

Speaker A

- All I can think is I think the reason for that was it's as much having to learn quite a difficult lesson.

12:29

Speaker A

And if you have to do lots of interviews, for example, if you end up having to explain your work in a particular way, when people are like...

12:38

Speaker A

You can get picked apart and what you've done can get picked apart in a way, which is what you mean by artificial, I think really, in a way that's not necessary.

12:44

Speaker A

I mean, it used to be a lot worse. Now I guess it's not as bad, but around Kid A amnesia, before that, I really struggled.

12:55

Speaker A

Every time I had to try to do something new, I was explaining it to myself while I was doing it, literally.

13:05

Speaker A

It's like a form of madness and I couldn't get out of it. The experience of trying to make music, even the experience of being in the studio or listening back to stuff became this really weird hollow thing because I felt I needed to justify it somehow,

13:09

Speaker A

but not justify it in a sort of apologize, justify it in a kind of intellectual way.

13:12

Speaker A

And the reason for that was I needed to get out of it. I needed to just get out of the studio and I needed to just walk.

13:32

Speaker A

A lot of that was down to the fact that nobody cares, man. Nobody cares that it's difficult.

13:48

Speaker A

And so if you're worried, if you're bummed out that it's difficult, fucking stop, go and do something else.

13:57

Speaker A

Also, later on as you have kids and all this kind of thing, the choice to carry on doing this kind of work, you have to enjoy it.

14:03

Speaker A

And the enjoyment comes from having to start again from scratch every time you start again, whatever you learn, you've got to unlearn or all this kind of nonsense.

14:10

Speaker A

Also, songwriting is a very odd... I

14:16

Speaker A

I think I used to feel really labor focused about art in general. If it was walking in and seeing a painting and doing that like, "Oh, that can't have taken more than 10 minutes or whatever." And I felt like to justify it, I had

14:30

Speaker A

to be in the studio for months at a time and just in there. - That's your imposter syndrome speaking. Yeah.

14:37

Speaker A

Because that's how... I'm the same. Yeah. I mean, sometimes it's fun, but sometimes you're like you're doing it because you feel you should do it because you need to stay ahead of the game or you need to keep proving

14:51

Speaker A

that you are who you say you are. I mean, there are good sides to it, but there's a point where it just doesn't give you anything back and it can really freak you out because you've been there for weeks and nothing's happening.

15:02

Speaker A

That's when you rely on other people. Yeah. I mean, I don't know about you, but I don't really get much done if I'm in the studio on my own.

15:10

Speaker A

I get stuff done super quick when I've got someone in front of me to show it to.

15:16

Speaker A

- I'm - Like, running around, trying to find my notes, trying to... It could be this, it could be this, it could be this.

15:22

Speaker A

But if I'm on my own. Yeah. - I feel like it's a real line to ride with that because I still feel like I get it on stage sometimes where I think the kind of sweet spot is where you're relaxed in that kind of flow state

15:46

Speaker A

where it feels like, "Oh, this feels really easy. It feels like it's just happening and this is great." And then I kind of click over to like, "Oh, it feels too easy.

15:57

Speaker A

Am I not working hard enough?" - You mean on stage? - Yeah. Okay. It's like when it feels most natural is when I think the show is at its best, but then I have this voice of like, it shouldn't

16:09

Speaker A

- Be the same. Actors have the same thing, right? When you're acting... The joke with Radiohead is always like we'll have moments in the show where like, "Oh my God, we're so great." And exactly that moment, someone fucks up

16:22

Speaker A

every time without fail. We all look around going off. - Yeah. How do you find the...

16:32

Speaker A

I guess in the studio mostly how different is it for you in terms of how much do you enjoy the kind of pros and cons of when you're making music with the band versus making stuff by yourself?

16:47

Speaker A

Do you like the kind of what the friction can make in that scenario or do you tend to enjoy like, "Oh, I'm going to have this idea and actually I get to just...

16:59

Speaker A

I'm going to just see this all the way through." - It wasn't until after kid A, I remember quietly saying to Nijah, "I've got all these things.

17:08

Speaker A

I just want to do them on my own. It doesn't make sense to try and include anybody else." Up until that point, it was just a really alien concept.

17:19

Speaker A

We've known each other a mind boggling number of years now. We all know each other's musical strengths and musical weaknesses.

17:26

Speaker A

So you're spending a lot of the time working around that. I mean, we haven't worked, we haven't been in the studio together for a long time, so I don't know how it would actually feel now.

17:37

Speaker A

The upside of that is you get this sort of... It has to go through all these different filters and all these different perspectives and all these different kind of tastes.

17:46

Speaker A

And because of that, it strengthens it because the point is that whatever the idea is, if it survives all this, it becomes so much bigger than the sum of its parts.

17:57

Speaker A

When you work on your own, it's much harder to get that. It's also like the relationships you develop with the people you work with and you write with are weird relationships because sometimes this person contributes, sometimes this person contributes.

18:15

Speaker A

Sometimes it's what happens in the studio and Nigel's making shit happen. It's all these different things.

18:23

Speaker A

I don't know how to answer that. I know that when I work on my own, it's quick because it's just me.

18:31

Speaker A

I mean, with the smile again, it's totally different because Johnny just generates ideas all the time.

18:37

Speaker A

Skinner works faster than any human being I've ever met and can respond to literally, as you probably know, anything.

18:44

Speaker A

You throw it at him and I'm in the middle going, "All right, well, why don't you guys record this because I don't understand what's going on and I'll go away and think about it.

18:52

Speaker A

Or I'll try get in the middle of it and I don't know what's happening.

18:55

Speaker A

I'm lost." My favorite experiences in the studio is I like when someone's playing something that's good and I don't understand why it's good and I pick up a mic and respond to it and then I will listen back

19:07

Speaker A

to it like you're saying, like I'm trying to explain about despite yourself. I have no idea who that was or Is that us? Yeah, that's us.

19:15

Speaker A

That thing, that's the best bit. - Yeah. - And that's when you have... You only get that when you have other people.

19:21

Speaker A

You never get that just with yourself. - Do you find it when it comes to releasing stuff and in the making it process, do you find it more vulnerable to be working and putting out your own stuff where

19:40

Speaker A

although it's so much of you for it to be like it's just me and there's no...

19:46

Speaker A

Someone says, "Oh, I don't like this," that was Johnny's idea. It's fine. No, I get that. Is there any more vulnerable - For you to - No, I don't get that.

19:53

Speaker A

I mean, it's all vulnerable. Yeah. I mean, but at the same time, I don't know about you, but if I'm finishing a record, if I can't sit down and listen to it and be comfortable with it and happy with it, it's not going out.

20:06

Speaker A

So the vulnerable bit happens - - When you're writing it. - Yeah. When you're trying to finish the fucking lyrics, that's when it's the worst.

20:18

Speaker A

Words, right? How do you do words? - I've never found the one method. It's never been like I write a poem and then I put it to music or I write this and then I do it this way.

20:35

Speaker A

I think what is so exciting to me about doing it is so often the good stuff tends to come from a few weeks or a couple months or whatever of like, "Oh, I've got nothing.

20:51

Speaker A

I don't have anything." It's - All - Gone. Yeah, - I understand. And then - All of a sudden you write something and you're like, "I really like this.

20:59

Speaker A

I don't know why." And when that comes in lots of different ways, if it's like I have a line or I have a piano thing or something that you just like or a melody that's mumbled over something, usually there's a word in it.

21:16

Speaker A

Yeah. And then it's a lot of like, "Oh, I'm building a song around these three words that sound great over this thing." And you're like - - That is the correct process.

21:26

Speaker A

- Yeah. - Yeah. In my opinion. If you got a few words that hang everything off and you don't understand why, then that's the most exciting, even though it's painful because then you have to spend weeks trying to fill in the blanks.

21:37

Speaker A

- I think sometimes with some of the best stuff, I think it's more difficult obviously to be concise with something.

21:48

Speaker A

And I think some of the best stuff when there's a... I know I like a melody when I kind of overwrite the songs.

21:57

Speaker A

- Overwrite? - I'll write a bunch of verses and - There's a bunch - Of lyrics and stuff that are floating around.

22:04

Speaker A

And then if you have all of these lyrics, then I'm like, "Oh, you take these three verses and actually if you take these lines and make them one verse, it's actually much more powerful in what it's saying.

22:21

Speaker A

And it's like better - Than - Explaining everything. - I find that also it tends to be, you tend to choose the lines that just sit musically, even though you're like," I'm not entirely comfortable with the words themselves, but it sits well.

22:46

Speaker A

"And that's when you get that thing where you listen back to it months later going," Oh, that's why I kept it.

22:52

Speaker A

"Because I think obviously when my laptop is full of discarded lyrics like that, and I have a corner of a fun process with Stanley Dunwood though, because we end up using those quite a lot for other things because he's a writer.

23:09

Speaker A

So I throw all the discarded stuff at him when we're trying to do the artwork and he comes back with it and like," This is good, this is good.

23:18

Speaker A

"And he'll start doing jumbled collages and stuff out, which makes me see what we've been working on in a different way, which is really nice.

23:26

Speaker A

So it's all valid, but the stuff that ends up being in the song is kind of there despite itself.

23:32

Speaker A

It's there because the music needs it to be there. I mean, it's possible to say," No, I'm just going to put this in because I want to say this and make it work.

23:44

Speaker A

"It depends on how you're singing, depends on whether it's melodic or whether it's you're talking or whatever.

23:50

Speaker A

If you're talking, then you can say what you like. I mean, honestly, the thing I'm most jealous of, always will be, is people who can just free flow onto a mic and put it out.

24:02

Speaker A

- I listened to a podcast that you were on. Oh, the podcast. It was about vocals during - COVID, I - Think.

24:12

Speaker A

And you said something about kind of using your... You think of your vocal as one of the instruments in the song, and that's kind of how you tend to approach composition now.

24:23

Speaker A

- Yeah. - Is that something that you noticed when that changed for you? Because in it, you say you don't so much kind of sit and write a song and be like," I'm going to sit here and this is the song and this is how it goes.

24:39

Speaker A

"Obviously, if you go back to the bends, for example, like high and dry or something, - That is like a guy with an acoustic guitar, he's singing a song.

24:50

Speaker A

Yeah. That particular one, I wish I hadn't, but there's kind of nothing wrong with that.

24:55

Speaker A

And it's not like I don't do it. Yeah, I did this thing in Rome just introducing a film the other day and someone asked me," So what is your relationship to film music?

25:07

Speaker A

Do you see yourself just as a songwriter? "And I think that that sort of ties in with what you're saying because I don't listen to a lot of singer-songwriters.

25:22

Speaker A

I listen to a lot of mad old folk music or I listen to film music or I listen to electronic music.

25:29

Speaker A

The banging away on the guitar thing is sometimes when it really speaks to me, but not a lot.

25:35

Speaker A

And I'm not quite sure why that is. I think probably because we grew up when there was a real renaissance of that and the bend was that.

25:44

Speaker A

But I think also by the time we got to Kid A, I just was excited about what else you could do with your voice, really.

25:51

Speaker A

When Johnny and Nigel set up this thing for Kid A where Johnny's just playing the Martine and I'm just picking out random lines from my top hat that I had, and that became the vocal.

26:06

Speaker A

- Right. - And I'm not singing that at all. I'm literally speaking it. Also, I don't think it's a coincidence really also that one of my favorite singers ever is Michael Stype, who first two or three records didn't even bother writing the lyrics,

26:25

Speaker A

or rather if he did, it was like stream of consciousness. I'm not going to make this explicit.

26:32

Speaker A

I'm the human sound in the middle of all these amazing jangling guitars and stuff.

26:36

Speaker A

And also, sometimes I don't like the lyrics being the point. You know what I mean?. Sometimes it's really exciting that there's just this sound.

26:48

Speaker A

- Right. - I've got notes. Look. - Homework. - Do you travel with a laptop?

26:56

Speaker A

- My laptop has been dead for about six years. I don't know where the charger is.

27:04

Speaker A

- We can help you with that. I know. Where are your ideas? In your pocket?

27:10

Speaker A

- On my phone. On - My - Phone. Yeah. I use Garage Band a lot and - - You should keep that to yourself, don't you?

27:18

Speaker A

- And voice notes. Really? I do a - Lot of - Voice notes. Yeah. Wow. Primitive of it.

27:23

Speaker A

- No, I mean, in a way, that's good. I remember my mini disc, that was my best friend.

27:29

Speaker A

- He's like, "Yes, I remember being in primary school. Yes. I also remember that." The voice note thing, I like something about it being its kind of blankest version.

27:48

Speaker A

- Yeah, yeah. It's the pencil drawing. - Yeah. I think I like that. I think the thing that I try, I guess, and work towards the most, and the thing that excites me the most is when I start a record or before I've started something,

28:04

Speaker A

or you have a bunch of the songs for a record and I'm still kind of like, "I have no idea how this is going to end up sounding." - Right.

28:15

Speaker A

- I think if there was any - I'm - Surprised - Kind of scariest version to me.

28:18

Speaker A

- The last record is very much, it sounds like it was developed in the studio.

28:22

Speaker A

- With an intention. - It doesn't sound like it comes from voice notes. - That one was less from voice notes.

28:27

Speaker A

- Now you see. - Yeah. I mean, there was a few. It's kind of like moments in this.

28:35

Speaker A

There's the kind of orchestral thing or the piano songs. There's a couple of much - More - Straightforward songs.

28:43

Speaker A

And then yeah, there's probably three or four kind of moments that I think are the most down the middle like there.

28:50

Speaker A

- So the rest are worked up in the studio? - Yeah, it was mostly done in the studio this time.

28:55

Speaker A

- Written in the studio. - A lot of it, yeah. I think it was just where I felt like I was at in my life and music that I was experiencing.

29:08

Speaker A

I want to melt the parts of my life together. I'd started going out dancing a lot more and I really didn't want it to be like, "Oh, I'm listening to this music.

29:19

Speaker A

This is kind of where I'm at." And then I go in the studio and be like, "Well, I have to make this sort of music instead." I think it was - Really bad. I know that feeling.

29:29

Speaker A

- Yeah. I think it was really like... - I know that feeling very well.

29:33

Speaker A

- "I've just come from this place. I want that beat to keep going, or I want...

29:42

Speaker A

It was a lot about, for me, I think what I was experiencing at that time in my life.

29:48

Speaker A

It was like I want to be on stage feeling in the middle of it like this.

29:54

Speaker A

And that was kind of the thing that - I - Think you did that.

29:58

Speaker A

- Informed the record the - Most. I mean, that was my favorite That's kind of my favorite part of the show where you literally do that.

30:04

Speaker A

There was a generosity to that, which I though, yeah, that's really cool. And that is clearly someone who's discovering this thing and wants to share it in a real...

30:14

Speaker A

So honesty of it was very cool. I was really into that. I mean, it's also very difficult to take that kind of music into those places.

30:23

Speaker A

It's much easier to just make yourself totally deaf DJing in a club in Berlin and thinking that's okay.

30:29

Speaker A

And it is okay. Dance music has got a lot to offer and it's not just one thing.

30:36

Speaker A

We went through this phase when Radiohead were on tour, we had Caribou supporting us, and now I was DJing with him afterwards.

30:44

Speaker A

It's crazy. Finishing the show and then starting up at a club at one or two or even three in the morning and then it's a day off maybe the next day if you're lucky or not.

30:57

Speaker A

I know that feeling. I want this. Yeah. The reason you brought that, I was asking you like, yeah, but the new one you didn't write off voice notes, right?

31:06

Speaker A

So that means then you're changing the way you write. - I mean, I've always written a lot in the studio.

31:13

Speaker A

I think I tended to, what it used to be, I think was a lot of voice notes and little pieces of things or it would be a line or something and then I'd start things and then take them in and finish them there.

31:31

Speaker A

And this was the first time it was like, oh, I'd done something at home and I'm like, oh, I think this is the song. Okay.

31:39

Speaker A

- Because now you have a studio at home. Do you work in it or you work with someone?

31:43

Speaker A

- I work with - Someone - There, yeah. - I mean, I've only just got to the point now where I can turn my own studio and know where everything is.

31:49

Speaker A

It's taken me a long time. But once you have a place like that and yeah, it changes how you think about writing anyway because you can just endlessly mess around and then just grab one piece.

32:04

Speaker A

That's it. That's what makes me want to sing that bit there. Fuck the rest of it. I'm just going to use that bit.

32:10

Speaker A

No different than jamming around on an acoustic guitar. It just takes up some hard disc space, that's all.

32:16

Speaker A

But that's why I travel with a laptop. There's upsides to it and downsides to it, to be honest, because it means you've got everything at your fingertips so you can fiddle endlessly, get really excited about a synth sound and then take it home

32:29

Speaker A

and show it to Sam and he's like, "Okay, well there's a real synth over there.

32:33

Speaker A

Why don't you go and use that?" Laptops have that kind of bad habits, obsessive tendencies, which is not good, but the upside is you have all this kind of tech, you're taking everything out.

32:47

Speaker A

I don't know. When we're doing Kiday, Nigel had a Pro Tools, the first Pro Tools set up because we were having to record strings.

32:59

Speaker A

We couldn't get them on to the tape and all this sort of stuff. And I was like, "I need that because it's always a bit of a computer head." So when I saw that in the studio, I'm like, I really, I just

33:14

Speaker A

wanted to learn it immediately. And that really changed how I though about music straight away.

33:19

Speaker A

Suddenly I have a multi-track in my bag. I was going to ask you, where's home?

33:27

Speaker A

- Home? - Do you have more than one? - I think when I'm in London feels the most calm. And I'm not from here.

33:34

Speaker A

- Where's your stuff? Where's your important stuff? London. - Yeah, London. Yeah, because I've lived in my house for 12 years or something.

33:45

Speaker A

That's the place where I feel like I really feel like been so many... I've been through so many versions of myself even in the same space in there that it's the most I feel like I really grew up in this house in a big way.

34:07

Speaker A

I remember moving in, it was right after my 19th birthday or something. It's been through a lot of changes and things, but it's kind of the place where I'm...

34:19

Speaker A

It's like in my kitchen there is the most like, oh, this is where I live.

34:24

Speaker A

Right. Do - You cook? I - Do. Yeah. - You're probably pretty good, aren't you? All - Right.

34:30

Speaker A

- I'm fucking terrible. - To stay on you for a second, if I may.

34:34

Speaker A

I was curious doing this interview, for example, or the Ivas thing, for example, I think everyone communicated almost like a surprise that you were willing to be celebrated in some way.

34:49

Speaker A

And I am curious about how your relationship with that has changed over time in terms of as someone who's so innovative, how much of it has always been a need to reject any sort of nostalgia to assure yourself

35:14

Speaker A

that you're moving forward. To me, it feels like maybe just being in a happier place to be able to realize that you can do both, you can still innovate - And - Also allow people to celebrate and for you to celebrate things that you've done,

35:34

Speaker A

whether it be the Ivas or touring and playing a deep selection from your catalog, to be able to play those songs and not feel like we're living in the past right now and just be like, "We made something really beautiful,

35:52

Speaker A

I'm going to play it and that's beautiful. And also I cannot also still be moving forward." - You're right that I'm in a slightly better place nowadays, but I'd be lying that if I didn't say that something like getting a Iva Novello fellowship was not

36:12

Speaker A

deeply confusing for me. I admire a lot of the people that they've given those awards to.

36:19

Speaker A

So that's really kind of why I said, "Well, yeah, I would do that because some of these people are my heroes." But I have a very, very strange relationship.

36:31

Speaker A

God, this is really hard to explain. I have a very strange relationship to that element of my work. The - Navel gazing?

36:45

Speaker A

- No, just - - The kind of exterior. - Yeah, because I find it hard to believe in it, Which is...

36:57

Speaker A

I think the reason you talk about this moving forward thing is that the moving forward thing is that's what I believe in.

37:07

Speaker A

That's easy to believe in because that's new and I don't have to explain it and I don't know what I'm doing, so I'm happy.

37:14

Speaker A

When the light is put on you and it's like, "You did this," I'm like, "Yeah, I did, but I can't tell you why, and maybe someone else can, but I often feel in these kind of occasions, I even did

37:28

Speaker A

after the Radiohead tour, even though it was in the middle of it, it was really fun, my response to it afterwards was like To crash, massively crash in terms of self-confidence.

37:45

Speaker A

It took me months to... Well, it took me starting on my own record again two months later to go," Okay, I'm good now.

37:53

Speaker A

I'm fine. "Because yeah, I just have a really odd relationship with it and I've just grown used to that.

38:03

Speaker A

To be honest, your speech that you made, his speech was great. Number one, because you came with a notebook and read it out the notebook, and number two, I was like," Yeah, man.

38:10

Speaker A

"Just because it was really honest and personal and I could relate to it. Whereas when it sort of feels like a business and it feels like you're part of a business and the cameras are running, all that kind of stuff,

38:27

Speaker A

I got this legacy feeling about all of it, which I can't really explain and I probably should figure it out at some point, but I'm happy moving in and out of it.

38:37

Speaker A

- Yeah, something I'm curious about. I wonder if it's something also that maybe happens when you have children and then keep creating, because obviously the idea of that is like you make something that continues to exist and it's not like you have children

39:05

Speaker A

and then think I have to keep innovating so I'm done with them. It's almost like both a connection to the things that you do in your life and have done in your life.

39:16

Speaker A

- Yeah, it's really important that they all integrate. - And can keep informing who - You - Are, but also allowing to celebrate the things that you've done as part of you're really proud of these things and people are proud of those things

39:31

Speaker A

and it becomes a different - - Well, you probably saw Agnes and Noah. They were very emotional about it and Diana, my wife was as well, and my friends, I do it for them because if they're emotional about it, I'm like,

39:46

Speaker A

okay, that's why I'm here. Because for me, I feel kind of numb about it.

39:51

Speaker A

It doesn't make sense to me. Agnes and Noah, having grown up with their dad doing this, one of the things I'm most proud of is some of the attitude that I have has rubbed off them as they grow up.

40:08

Speaker A

I can see they have that kind of attitude to what they're doing, quite fearless about being creative and quite open and not embarrassed.

40:19

Speaker A

I mean, obviously when your kid's a teenager, they're like, "Oh God, my father's blah, blah, blah." But now it's really nice.

40:25

Speaker A

It's a good thing. I feel super lucky about that because it wasn't easy for a long time.

40:32

Speaker A

- There's kind of an option of when the thing that comes with you make something that resonates with people and then that noise and all of that and your experience becomes so existential of what is it for and what is this for

40:54

Speaker A

and generally what is what we all doing here and all of that stuff. There's a version of that is kind of like, "Oh, it's all meaningless, so why bother?" And then on the other side of that is it's all kind of meaningless so you can go

41:09

Speaker A

and enjoy it a bit. - When you say meaningless, what do you mean? Which element meaningless?

41:13

Speaker A

- I think general, any sort of existentialism towards meaning of life, like any sort - Of - In the work?

41:22

Speaker A

- Yeah. I think in writing about the human experience and what it means to be a human in the world and what is all of that.

41:34

Speaker A

I think as someone who makes something, there's a version of sort of accepting you're not in control of it, like you're saying when it happens that I think can be really terrifying to be like, "Oh, I don't control

41:52

Speaker A

- Anything." Ah, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - But the other side of that is actually, it can be really liberating to be like, "Oh, I'm not in control of this." You can kind of let go.

42:03

Speaker A

And I wonder if part of that is - - Yeah, yeah. No, fair enough. You need to retain a healthy skepticism about all of it.

42:17

Speaker A

But then I also think I would never cast it in a kind of like I'm trying to talk about the human experience at all.

42:28

Speaker A

I would never think of it like that. I think that's kind of like the art school side of me.

42:35

Speaker A

By the time you've done three years of art school and you've gone through the process of explaining and watching other people trying to explain their work and get trashed for your work and all this kind of...

42:50

Speaker A

You end up thinking that the process is the point. And that's the kind, I think me and Stanny went to the same art school and we both came out with the process being the point.

43:02

Speaker A

Yes, there's an end result. The real juice is the process. The real juice is like, "I don't know what I'm doing, but in finding the things that speak to me and assembling them and presenting them and then moving on, that is my act.

43:21

Speaker A

What you see and whether it speaks to you or whether I'm looking for that because I need to say something is like none of those things are linear.

43:31

Speaker A

And in order for good shit to happen, you need to believe in the process more than anything else." Kind of makes me think of some of my favorite records, you can almost hear that in the records in the way

43:46

Speaker A

that they've been made. They were just enjoying putting this stuff together and they didn't care.

43:53

Speaker A

Same thing as doing for lyrics and ending up using the lyrics that just mean something to you and you don't know why, right?

44:01

Speaker A

The more you do it, the more liberated you become from the end result and the more liberated you become, the more you see if you're lucky, the fact that what you do might speak to people as, yeah, you're not responsible for

44:21

Speaker A

that In a good way. Not like, oh, I don't care because you do care, but you just want to move on.

44:29

Speaker A

I mean, the worst thing for me about OkComputer was when we finished that record, we'd been already playing those songs too much.

44:38

Speaker A

And then when the manager said to us, "Now you're going to go on two years." I'm like, I literally begged them, "I can't do it.

44:46

Speaker A

I can't do it. I need to move on." Two years later, we were still going.

44:49

Speaker A

And that was just really fucked up because the moving on thing is like, yeah, that's not a luxury.

44:59

Speaker A

That's entirely essential. I think everybody has their different ways of dealing with this. Personally, I rely on the sort of thing of not doing it for too long.

45:12

Speaker A

I wish I could do it for a long time, but I can't because it sort of starts to get disconnected and a bit like, oh, I've got this move here and we do this bit here and it doesn't feel very spontaneous.

45:23

Speaker A

And the whole point of a live performance is rediscovering with the people you're standing in front of something about this thing that you wrote and sharing it with them.

45:34

Speaker A

So that demands that you sort of... As much as a spectator as a performer, maybe that's the wrong way of putting it, but I don't think you...

45:44

Speaker A

I used to, but now I don't think you need to dig deep in order to find what you need to sing this song or whatever.

45:51

Speaker A

I think it's the opposite. You need to just totally let go and go, "If I'm not feeling this right now, I'm good with that because maybe in 10 minutes it's going to really hit me like a train," which often it does.

46:02

Speaker A

- You have so many moments in your life, I think everyone does, where you have those songs, if you like music at all, where you're like, "Oh, this is also a song or this is also a movie or something." I remember seeing Pulp Fiction

46:23

Speaker A

for the first time and being like, "Oh, this is a film as well." And hearing Shine on You Crazy Diamond for the first time and being so confused by it that this was a song and that was what you could do also.

46:40

Speaker A

With the Carmen Police video, for example, I remember watching that and being like, "Oh, this is so brilliant." I feel like so much of your music has that weight where it really, you just remember hearing it.

47:02

Speaker A

It's all so different from each other in a way that is, I think, so inspiring just to see someone be so consistently great in so many different ways, but in so many different ways.

47:19

Speaker A

It can be hard to timeline it sometimes in terms of... There's not this obvious like, "Well, it was this, then it was this, then it was this, then it was this." It's all its own thing in a way that

47:34

Speaker A

I think just makes it feel so fresh always. I've just always really been drawn to stuff like...

47:43

Speaker A

I love Codex or True Love White or something. Yeah. I just have always loved that sort of...

47:52

Speaker A

I mean, everything in its right place is it for me. It's always been so much of that.

48:04

Speaker A

I mean, I find it so inspiring. - Everything's right place was my response to not being out right.

48:12

Speaker A

We had this empty house, we had a grand piano, we had a mattress. That's the first thing I did when we moved into this house.

48:19

Speaker A

I mean, finding lost, felt lost ever since that okay can be a thing. And when I found that, okay, weirdly with that one, it was like a mantra.

48:33

Speaker A

I wasn't thinking, oh, I'm writing a song. I was just really enjoying playing piano in this empty house.

48:40

Speaker A

And I had one CD, which was a and that's it. And it was during the winter and there was storms all the time and just had a mattress.

48:48

Speaker A

It was so great. Just playing this riff over and over and over again to make myself feel better.

48:57

Speaker A

I love that thing of, it arrives in the post, you plug it in, you don't read the manual, you just start messing about and you find something, whether it's a synth or a drum machine or guitar or anything.

49:11

Speaker A

Establishing a relationship with this construction, this thing and responding to it and responding to what people thought you might like about it, what you don't like about it, all this stuff.

49:21

Speaker A

I've got so much out of that kind of process over the years that I figured that it must be part of what writing is, part of what our particular process is.

49:36

Speaker A

There are just some days when nothing happened and then some days you'll pick up something you're unfamiliar with and the unfamiliarity means you have to make a sort of step, you have to step across.

49:48

Speaker A

And that stepping across means like, okay, I don't know why I like what's happening here and the I don't know why I like thing is what music should be, which is why strangely enough, algorithms don't produce an awful lot of that.

50:07

Speaker A

The human creativity is kind of like the same kind of thing as a scientist trying to solve a problem and he has all the things set up and he's gone, he's tried everything and he can't figure it out.

50:23

Speaker A

He's in the same kind of place, right? He's in the like, where I'm lost now, I've tried everything.

50:30

Speaker A

And then he goes away and he sleeps on it and he comes back and then something clicks.

50:35

Speaker A

Because why? Because he's unfamiliar, because he can't make sense or something and then he can or she suddenly makes sense, something falls into place.

50:46

Speaker A

- For me, it's just kind of where the risk falls is kind of inverted on itself of where you think it might be.

50:59

Speaker A

Someone else might feel like trying something different feels really risky in some way or straying from what people like about your music feels like a risky thing.

51:11

Speaker A

But I think the trying to recreate for that reason is that's the risky thing.

51:18

Speaker A

- That's just awful. - That to me is the terrifying part, the idea of doing that.

51:26

Speaker A

And I think any time... Sometimes there's songs that we've done in the studio and you finish it and you're like, "I think this is a great song.

51:38

Speaker A

I think it's really good." But it doesn't excite me at all. Maybe because it has something that reminds you of something else you've done or whatever it is that it's just - I should like this.

51:49

Speaker A

You're not learning anything. I should - Like this. Yeah. I - Should like this.

51:53

Speaker A

I should like it, but you just don't. And - - I mean, I had that with Codex all the way through it.

51:58

Speaker A

The rest of the band forced me personally to finish it. Everyone was like, "You're fucking crazy, man." I'm like, "All right.

52:06

Speaker A

So sometimes..." - For me, at least so much of the studio experience of making something is almost trying to block out the fact that anyone's going to listen to it for a second to just make what - It is. You're doing it for you.

52:25

Speaker A

- Yeah. You have to just be making what do I want to listen to at this time in my life?

52:31

Speaker A

What is it that I feel like I want to do, say, make? And the fact that people are going to hear it feels like that happens late.

52:41

Speaker A

The realization of that feels like it happens later. And I think the live playing music to an audience is the part where you're embracing the fact that people listen to it and that it's connected with people.

52:57

Speaker A

And I think for me, the kind of emotion that happened at the end of the London shows was like...

53:08

Speaker A

I think it was just a realization of that those shows felt so much to me like a culmination of so many people's support, I think.

53:22

Speaker A

I think that's the bit. That part feels so external. I think you make the thing, and then how many shows you play is determined by how many people want to come see it.

53:36

Speaker A

And I think what - Was - Turns out a - Lot. What was emotional for me was it felt...

53:43

Speaker A

I was kind of realizing, I think, how deep it is and how deeper it is, how much deeper it is than kind of any one moment or one song or any sort of fluke thing.

54:02

Speaker A

It just felt like supported kind of in a way more than like, "We're here because we want to hear this song that you've done, or we're here because we like when you used to play that one, or it just felt like we're here

54:14

Speaker A

because we believe in what you're doing." And I think that's what it felt like to me.

54:20

Speaker A

And I think that's why I found it so emotional was I think... - Also, you have to give a lot of yourself.

54:31

Speaker A

You have to give a lot of yourself, and that makes you very open. I've heard people say to me, "Careful with that, because you're exposed to all these people and all this kind of thing." And like, "Yeah, it doesn't bother me.

54:49

Speaker A

Did, it did. It did. Used to. It doesn't bother me anymore." - I mean, I think if you're sensitive enough to want to write, sensitive enough to be aware of the part of you that wants to say anything,

55:05

Speaker A

if you're sensitive enough to care enough about a song to be like, "It's not right yet.

55:13

Speaker A

I have this idea and I want it to be right and I want it to be great," there's a sensitivity there that needs it to be great.

55:21

Speaker A

And I think if you're sensitive enough to do that, to feel it and then to communicate it and then see it through, put so much of your life into making sure this synth sound is correct, then I think you're sensitive enough to feel when

55:40

Speaker A

those moments land on you in what might come back at you. I think a lot of the time when you're making stuff, you're kind of trying to reject what's coming back at you to remain sort of beginner's mind of

55:57

Speaker A

how do I go back to before anyone liked this song that I did or anything like that.

56:05

Speaker A

You're always trying to get back to a sense of starting again. So I think those moments where you kind of let go and open up and allow it all to come in and you get to feel that, I think it is a wave of something

56:24

Speaker A

that you don't live with every day. So it's quite - Like - You certainly don't, bro.

56:28

Speaker A

I guess if I was going to answer that I'd say when we did the first radio show in Madrid, we had to do this thing where we had to walk through the audience.

56:41

Speaker A

Never done that before. Walk through the audience and we had to stand on the stage getting prepped before we went up, up.

56:50

Speaker A

The first time we did that after, I don't know how many years, all of us, the whole band were like, "Okay, keep it together.

57:00

Speaker A

Keep it together." Because I just wanted to... I already wanted to burst into tears because I hadn't been exposed to whatever that was for so long and to walk through the middle of it and then I never forget it.

57:16

Speaker A

I mean, all of us, we were like, "Holy shit. Holy shit." Also, you mentioned Beginner's Mind. Do you know the book?

57:24

Speaker A

- Yeah. - The Suzuki book. Okay, good. Very important. - Very important. Which brings us back to walking the artist's perspective where we began.

57:35

Speaker A

There's the bow, there's the seal.

Topics: Harry Styles Thom Yorke Rolling Stone Musicians on Musicians creativity vulnerability fame songwriting artist perspective music industry

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