**A Couple's Therapist On How Money Poisons Relationships — Transcript & Summary | SozAI**
Source: https://sozai.app/transcript/couples-therapist-money-relationships/

Chelsea Fagan hosts sex therapist Vanessa Marin and her husband Xander on The Financial Diet to discuss how money, gender roles, and labor shape couples' intimacy and sex lives.

## Key Takeaways

- Money and domestic labor imbalances significantly erode intimacy and satisfaction, especially for women carrying disproportionate household and childcare work.
- Unexamined gender roles inherited from traditional partnership models often produce resentment and reduced desire.
- Couples should discuss sex, intimacy, and expectations early and revisit them after major life changes like childbirth.
- Vulnerability and open communication, including from men, are essential to healthy, intimate relationships.

## What the video covers

- Host Chelsea Fagan introduces the episode on how money affects couples' intimacy, communication, and romance across all relationship stages.
- Guests Vanessa (a licensed sex therapist who moved from in-person practice to online courses) and her husband Xander (co-host of the Pillow Talk podcast) discuss their work.
- Vanessa explains why she brought Xander into the business: sharing personal experiences as a couple who have had ups and downs, including the spark fading, adds value beyond typical therapist training.
- The conversation identifies a common pattern in heterosexual partnerships where women, overburdened with domestic labor and childcare, report high dissatisfaction, often tied to outdated gender roles.
- Guests note that couples often fall into traditional gender dynamics unconsciously and that unwinding these takes deliberate unpacking.
- Men are encouraged to become more emotionally vulnerable rather than adhering to stereotypical alpha-male ideals, though this shift is still in early stages.
- Parenthood is highlighted as a major disruptor of intimacy, with couples often unprepared for changes in sex life after having a child.
- Couples are advised to talk about sex and intimacy early in relationships to set expectations and address potential incompatibility.
- Shared hobbies are presented as a way to reconnect and see each other in new lights.
- Vanessa and Xander promote their book Sex Talks as a resource for having difficult conversations about sex and offer a free workbook.

## Chapters

1. 00:00 Introduction to Money and Intimacy
2. 03:23 Guest Introductions and Backgrounds
3. 07:35 Defining Healthy Partnership
4. 11:26 Gender Roles and Unpacking Dynamics
5. 18:24 Parenthood and Changing Intimacy
6. 28:20 Talking About Sex Early in Relationships
7. 44:10 Male Vulnerability and Shared Hobbies
8. 55:00 Final Advice and Sex Talks Resources

Answers

## Questions about this video

Who are the guests in this episode?

The guests are Vanessa, a licensed sex therapist who runs online courses and guides, and her husband Xander, co-host of the Pillow Talk podcast and co-author of New York Times best-selling books. Vanessa explains that Xander joined the business to share personal relationship experiences that a therapist's training would normally keep private.

How does money affect couples' intimacy according to the discussion?

Money and the roles tied to it, especially domestic labor and childcare, shape how partners feel about each other and their sex lives. The guests report that overburdened women often express high dissatisfaction, which can erode desire and emotional connection in relationships.

What advice do the guests give couples about sex and communication?

They recommend couples start talking about sex early in a relationship to surface compatibility issues and set realistic expectations. They also stress revisiting these conversations after major changes such as having a child, since intimacy often shifts significantly.

## Full Transcript — Download SRT & Markdown

00:02

Speaker A

Hey, my name is Chelsea Fagan, and I'm the founder and CEO of The Financial Diet, a totally independently owned and operated company of women who love to talk about money. Welcome to The Financial Confessions, a weekly show where we talk to people about their personal finances, their professional industries, and how money shapes their lives.

00:17

Speaker A

to people about their personal finances their professional industry and how money shapes their lives you can listen to or watch new episodes of the financial confessions every week on YouTube or your preferred streaming platform you can also support tfd and

00:30

Speaker A

You can listen to or watch new episodes of The Financial Confessions every week on YouTube or your preferred streaming platform. You can also support TFD and get exclusive access to our entire catalog of ad-free bonus videos, workshops, Discord community, our book club, and more by joining our members-only community on Patreon or YouTube. Our 2024 goal is to be primarily supported by our incredible community, and joining our membership program is the best way to do that.

00:43

Speaker A

community and joining our membership program is the best way to do that enjoy the [Music] episode welcome guys to today's conversation it's one that's been requested from you for quite some time because when it comes to the nuances of

01:01

Speaker A

Enjoy the episode.

01:16

Speaker A

relationships money gets between couples like few other things can and regardless of whether you are in the early stages of dating or have been married for decades money is going to play a huge role in the way your relationship plays

01:30

Speaker A

Welcome, guys, to today's conversation. It's one that's been requested from you for quite some time, because when it comes to the nuances of money and intimacy, we have talked about a lot of different aspects of the way those two things overlap. Because let's be clear, it's not a myth: finance and money are two of the leading drivers of arguments, discord, and even divorce in relationships.

01:42

Speaker A

haven't really touched on is the way that money and the kind of troubles that money can present can affect our physical intimacy ultimately as many of us probably know physical intimacy is just kind of a baseline problem in a lot

01:56

Speaker A

Money gets between couples like few other things can, and regardless of whether you are in the early stages of dating or have been married for decades, money is going to play a huge role in the way your relationship plays itself out. But as much as we've talked about things like learning to communicate around the issue of money, budgeting as a couple, divorcing in a healthier way, and we even have an upcoming episode on co-parenting, one thing we haven't really touched on is the way that money, and the kinds of troubles that money can present, can affect our physical intimacy.

02:09

Speaker A

recipe for disaster on many fronts so you guys have been asking for us to speak to people who can talk specifically about that intersection of not just money but the roles we play at home and then the roles that we play in

02:22

Speaker A

Ultimately, as many of us probably know, physical intimacy is just kind of a baseline problem in a lot of couples to begin with, and frankly, a lot of individuals to begin with. And you add heteronormative ideas around money and power and status, and divisions of labor, and the roles that they should be playing in the couple, and you have a recipe for disaster on many fronts.

02:36

Speaker A

popular Pillow Talk podcast and New York Times best-selling authors welcome thanks so much for having us I think we're gonna need to change Xander's title to that just some dude we always call him he's my regular dude husband but I like just some dude

02:52

Speaker A

So you guys have been asking us to speak to people who can talk specifically about that intersection of not just money, but the roles we play at home and the roles that we play in our intimate lives. So we brought on, I think, probably two of the best-qualified people to talk about it. She is an actual licensed therapist. He is just some guy, but he's also her husband. It's Xandra and Vanessa, host of the massively popular Pillow Talk podcast and New York Times best-selling authors.

03:05

Speaker A

you currently see clients on top of all of your media work I don't I started off seeing clients and my specialty has always been in Sex Therapy my practice filled up very quickly and I realized you know there's a limit to how many

03:18

Speaker A

Welcome. Thanks so much for having us.

03:31

Speaker A

online guides and courses very early in my career and realized that was so much more popular and successful so I eventually made that full transition over to being fully online and that was when Xander joined the business because

03:45

Speaker A

I think we're going to need to change Xander's title to that. Just some dude. We always call him my regular dude husband, but I like "just some dude" even better.

03:59

Speaker A

who's had ups and downs in our relationship who know what it's like to have had the spark go out so that was how he ended up joining the biz so you know obviously so much of what you do is

04:12

Speaker A

You're here for the vibes, here for the sex, you know, whatever.

04:26

Speaker A

concepts of intimacy communication romance kind of of demonstrating affection and you know hearing and seeing one another um and as I mentioned in the intro often kind of no matter what stage you are in a relationship money has such an enormous impact on

04:45

Speaker A

No, just say "here for the sex." That sounds horrible.

05:03

Speaker A

hear over and over again is are really kind of high levels of disatisfaction being reported from women who are overburdened who are often you know kind of taking on a really disproportionate level of work in the home and are kind

05:17

Speaker A

So, just to clarify, as I mentioned, you are actually Vanessa, a therapist, and do you currently see clients on top of all of your media work?

05:32

Speaker A

very outdated model of what hetero partnership looks like um super imposed onto a world that is no longer at all adapted to that my first question is kind of how do you see those same Dynamics playing out in people's sex and

05:47

Speaker A

I don't. I started off seeing clients, and my specialty has always been in sex therapy. My practice filled up very quickly, and I realized there's a limit to how many people I can help. I was saying the same things over and over again. Also, this is very intimidating for people, to come in in person and talk to a stranger about the most intimate details of their sex life. So I started building out online guides and courses very early in my career, and I realized that was so much more popular and successful. So I eventually made that full transition over to being fully online, and that was when Xander joined the business, because I just started thinking, you know, as a therapist my training is to be very buttoned up and not share anything about myself. But I think there's actually a lot of stuff that we can share as a couple who's been together for 16 years, who's had ups and downs in our relationship, who know what it's like to have had the spark go out. So that was how he ended up joining the biz.

06:01

Speaker A

about either one of them right we're supposed to just be naturally know what we're doing and be able to just have an amazing relationship with either one of them so we see people you know really struggling because of the lack of

06:15

Speaker A

So, obviously, so much of what you do is focused on, put simply, getting people to have better sex with their partners, with randoms, with themselves, with whoever they might be doing it with. But I think a lot of what you talk about also bleeds into more general concepts of intimacy, communication, romance, demonstrating affection, and hearing and seeing one another. And as I mentioned in the intro, no matter what stage you are in a relationship, money has such an enormous impact on those things. Specifically, something we've talked about before on the show is the way roles often end up shaking out in heterosexual partnerships, especially as it pertains to things like domestic labor, raising children, and taking care of the house. What we hear over and over again are really high levels of dissatisfaction being reported from women who are overburdened, who are often taking on a really disproportionate level of work in the home, and are kind of submitting to this very retrograde role, even when in many cases they also work full-time. It's the macro picture of it, even if you remove the finances: you're seeing an overreliance on a very outdated model of what heterosexual partnership looks like, superimposed onto a world that is no longer adapted to that at all.

06:27

Speaker A

themes between these two things that the labor can feel very frustrating in dealing with finances it feels like something that really goes unspoken uh and it can really affect also how things show up in the bedroom too you know if

06:40

Speaker A

My first question is how do you see those same dynamics playing out in people's sex and intimacy specifically?

06:53

Speaker A

you're thinking about like a really well embodied and healthy relationship to us you know partnership it feels like we're a team and we're working together on whatever challenges are coming our way or coming up in our relationship and I

07:09

Speaker A

There are so many fascinating similarities between the way that we deal with sex and the way that we deal with finances. I think one of the most basic things is this idea that we're really not supposed to talk about either one of them. We're supposed to just naturally know what we're doing and be able to have an amazing relationship with either one. So we see people really struggling because of the lack of education and resources, and even just the experience that we've had dealing with these types of things. A lot of what you're describing, the mental labor aspect of it, is another one of those unifying themes between these two things. The labor can feel very frustrating when dealing with finances. It feels like something that really goes unspoken, and it can also really affect how things show up in the bedroom. If you're not feeling like a true partnership, it's really going to affect your desire to be intimate with each other.

07:22

Speaker A

Really bringing them to each other so one example that came up for us was around finances early in our relationship without either of us talking about this openly or making an agreement that we were going to be doing

07:34

Speaker A

Well, what is that word to go off of? What does partnership really look like to both of you when you're thinking about a really well-embodied and healthy relationship?

07:48

Speaker A

conversation about that and I was able to realize oh my gosh I have been backing away from responsibilities in a way that I wasn't even aware of and didn't actively want to be doing then we were able to come back together as a

08:01

Speaker A

To us, partnership feels like we're a team, working together on whatever challenges are coming our way or coming up in our relationship. One of the biggest issues that comes up with both finances and sex is that there are so many things that end up getting left unsaid, and secret battles that we're each waging on our own, without really bringing them to each other. One example that came up for us was around finances early in our relationship. Without either of us talking about this openly or making an agreement that we were going to do this, Xander started taking on the primary role in our finances, and very quickly started feeling a little bit resentful, a little bit lonely, and a lot of pressure being put on his shoulders. Once we finally had a conversation about that, I was able to realize, oh my gosh, I have been backing away from responsibilities in a way I wasn't even aware of and didn't actively want to be doing. Then we were able to come back together as a partnership and say, okay, if we're really equals in this relationship, how do we divide this up, how do we approach this in a w

08:13

Speaker A

asking about it's not about equal division of labor per se or like okay you do half and I do half it's just both partners are involved in whatever aspect of the relationship that you're talking about is so whether that's your sex life

08:28

Speaker A

whether that's your anal life you know you're both involved you both know what's going on you're you're both invested in some way because I think that it's so easy for us to fall into these whether their gender roles or

08:42

Speaker A

their roles based on who earns more or whatever it's so easy to fall into these roles where it's like okay well all right I kind of I do the money in a silo or when it comes to sex it could be like

08:54

Speaker A

okay well you know this partner has the higher sex drive so they're the ones who always initiate sex I I think there's so many similarities there but yeah it's like you know the the true partnership is when we are both involved in whatever

09:06

Speaker A

it is regardless of how much you know what our differences are in that area whether it's sex drive or earning or whatever well part of the reason Xander that I wanted to have you on as well um is because well first of all I think

09:22

Speaker A

it's really interesting to have both of your perspective since you collaborate so much on your work um but also I mean candidly uh like all our staff as women our AUD audence is almost all women most of our guests are women we don't that

09:32

Speaker A

often have a man's perspective on a lot of these sort of more macro Dynamics as it pertains to people's roles within relationships and I think you know I'll tune into the manosphere sometimes I I like to see what you guys are talking

09:47

Speaker A

about not that you're on any of that stuff I'm sure but a lot of the refrain seems to be around men sort of losing a lot of their identity um identity often being historically centered around you know being the bread winner being um you

10:04

Speaker A

know more dominant in sort of the the household hierarchy and you know having these very specific roles to play um that now without necessarily having those things men are you know they're lost they're isolated you know in the

10:20

Speaker A

worst cases they're becoming incels or whatever you know there that there's a a clear lack or a need for further definition of a healthy version of masculinity that no longer exists within those previous paradigms and I'm just really interested speaking both as a man

10:38

Speaker A

and someone who also speaks to men how you personally navigate that and how you recommend young men navigate that yeah that's a big question I mean this it is so challenging for me personally I was raised in a pretty

10:54

Speaker A

Progressive household I so intellectually I didn't want to you know fall into the typical kind of gender role or gender stereotype you know I wanted you know I wanted a true partner kind of in the way that I described it a

11:09

Speaker A

couple minutes ago and the interesting thing is despite all that stuff that I believed and all that stuff that I wanted intellectually as Vanessa and I first started to get into our relationship and moved in together and started sharing finances like I found

11:26

Speaker A

myself just inadvertently falling into to those more you know typical gender Dynamic roles and it took us a while to really realize that and to kind of unwind and unpack that and I think you know this is again there's such a

11:42

Speaker A

similarity to sex here but it's like we see this stereotype portrayed in the media on TV in the movies in books so often where it's just like oh yeah well you know okay yeah the the man takes care of you Financial you know the the

11:57

Speaker A

guy is supposed to be in charge of the finan is you know you're meant to be the provider and so even though I didn't want that in my head you know I kind of had been conditioned to to react

12:09

Speaker A

positively to taking steps in that direction but at the same time I was noticing yeah like this doesn't feel right like I'm I'm starting to feel resentful um you know I'm I'm feeling alone and so you know I think the first

12:23

Speaker A

step was just acknowledging what was going on like acknowledging that turmoil I think that so often as men you know there's more societal conditioning of like oh we're supposed to be strong and Silent we're supposed to be so

12:36

Speaker A

self-reliant we're supposed to figure everything out on our own and so I think that for so many men when you start feeling that kind of internal turmoil of like oh well I'm doing the thing that I think I'm supposed to be doing that

12:49

Speaker A

everyone tells me I'm supposed to be doing I might even be getting a ton of validation externally for you know being a man and yet I'm still feeling this inks like something doesn't feel right right it doesn't feel fair you know I I

13:02

Speaker A

don't feel like I'm in a true partnership and so you try to just push it down right you're like okay I'm gonna solve this problem I'm gonna solve this problem Myself by being even more of a man by totally ignoring it by totally

13:15

Speaker A

ignoring it and um you know and that ultimately can have some pretty some pretty you know severe consequences like you know that can lead to you know mental health struggles that can lead to you know feeling bad about yourself

13:29

Speaker A

maybe Act acting out in other ways or you know you know when you push emotions down they tend to come out somewhere else in a different emotion or another behavior and so you know I think that my advice to to you know all men whether

13:42

Speaker A

you are you know a young man or someone that's been in this dynamic or you know in a relationship for a long time and you can identify with sort of that internal struggle the first step is just the acknowledgement it's you know we got

13:55

Speaker A

to talk about it we can't just push it down we can't keep it to ourselves by talking about it you don't have to solve the problem all in one go it's just like hey I'm noticing that I'm struggling with this I'm feeling some

14:08

Speaker A

you know I've got some competing ideas and I'm not sure like what what to do like let's just start to talk about it yeah I think we're living in a really interesting time for men where we're wanting more from men and yet we don't

14:25

Speaker A

have the setup for it and you know like Xander was sharing his story like we were raised by four feminists you know very Progressive like taught you don't need to be this way just because you're a woman or you don't have these

14:39

Speaker A

limitations on you just because you're a man and we both fully believed those values looked for a partner who had those same values and yet even with all of that we found ourselves in this relationship kind of realizing whoa we

14:55

Speaker A

we have slipped into these very stereotypical traditional roles that neither of us wanted and neither of us intended so I think being able to recognize how strong that pull is is very important for people of all genders but yeah I do think with men in

15:11

Speaker A

particular we are wanting men to be more evolved more vulnerable not this stereotypical alpha male that's been seen as you know the ideal masculinity for so long but we're still at the beginning of that process and we're all

15:27

Speaker A

kind of learning like what what does that actually look like and feel like and how do we actually you know deal with it as partners of men how do we create more support more of a system in place for this so it's it is a tricky

15:41

Speaker A

time surely is well and on the flip side as it pertains to women and you know cards on the table like we are focusing mostly on hetero Partnerships because I mean that's personally what I'm in but also just statistically the majority of

15:55

Speaker A

people do find themselves in hetero Partnerships and also that's where we see a lot of the biggest issues as it pertains to financial and um labor imbalances in the in the marriage you know there's been a lot of studies that

16:08

Speaker A

have shown that in same-sex couples a lot of these same Dynamics if they do exist it's certainly not to the same extent in part because they're not coming in with these very specific narratives and also all of the sort of

16:20

Speaker A

external factors that lead to you know one being compensated while the other is punished like for example when a couple has children the man will earn more statistically while the woman will earn less but kind of to that point for women

16:31

Speaker A

so I personally we don't have children we don't plan to um so it's not something that I've experienced personally but I've heard over and over from both you know in the media on social media from women in my own life

16:45

Speaker A

even that there's often a dynamic that takes place for women when they do have children in a couple where on top of having often a very outsized burden in terms of Labor in the home and it quickly not becoming that b partnership

17:00

Speaker A

that you're describing there's also a real erosion of her identity into you know she's seen now as a mother and kind of less so if at all the other thing she was one of whom being a sexual being um

17:14

Speaker A

and there's sort of the joke of it that's like oh she's not that Carefree girl I married and like meanwhile she's like saddled with like a screaming child a full-time job and the entire house to take care of and it's like well of

17:25

Speaker A

course she's not um but women I think are are often really punished for just sort of dealing with the very normal reaction of being in this very unsustainable position and often for women I think their sexuality can be the

17:42

Speaker A

one of the first things to go um so for couples who are and and women um who are kind of in that Dynamic what do you recommend to them well one of the reasons we were excited to talk to you

17:56

Speaker A

is because we are also child-free by choice it's very to try and find other couples out there so glad to have that similarity with you I think I saw a very cute dog behind you so oh there are yeah there are two very

18:10

Speaker A

cute dogs behind us actually yeah they they both jumped up to the chair they were actually trying to get onto our laps earlier and we're like no um yeah those are the children they're living that Meme the uh like no one has a

18:22

Speaker A

better life than dogs like with parents who don't want to have kids um they are definitely living that life but yeah to to get back to your question you know we do a lot of work with parents I'm you

18:33

Speaker A

know a marriage and family therapist so so much of my training and and work has been with families um but what you're saying is absolutely correct that you know that transition into becoming a mom is really difficult for so many reasons

18:48

Speaker A

and sex and intimacy is one of those big ones it's something that couples are just not prepared for all that you really get after having a child is that six week check up where you know for some couples it's going to be at 6 weeks

19:02

Speaker A

for others it's at a different time but basically a doctor will tell you okay you probably won't get seriously injured or experience excruciating pain if you start trying to have intercourse again and that's it it's just a sort of

19:14

Speaker A

expectation that oh yeah we pass that Mark and everything's good to go yeah back to normal back to normal right just as women have this pressure for our bodies to physically snap back after child birth as if nothing had ever

19:26

Speaker A

happened like it's there's also that pressure that our sex life should just snap back and that's absolutely not the case so the place that I always start is just normalizing like your sex life is not going to be the same that it was

19:39

Speaker A

before having kids because most parents are just so wildly unprepared for that that even that fact feels wild to them so starting there and then then we can get into like a lot of practical tips for how do we start to you know

19:54

Speaker A

reconnect and reconceptualize what does intimacy look like at this period of our relationship so one of the big pieces of advice that we like to give is to deprioritize intercourse so for a woman who's just given birth intercourse feels

20:10

Speaker A

like a lot you've had a serious trauma to your body you might still be experiencing pain or discomfort it just feels like a very high bar and this is one of the huge problems that comes up with heterosexual couples is that we see

20:24

Speaker A

intercourse as the be all end all like we even use the word sex and intercourse interchangeably right as if intercourse is it's the main event it's the the home run when you're running the bases type of thing but intercourse is just one of

20:39

Speaker A

so many ways to be physically intimate with each other and so if you recognize other things as sex like count everything as sex that's one of our mots like everything counts as sex that can be a great way to start easing back into

20:54

Speaker A

physical intimacy so there may be days where all you're really feeling up to is being naked together and you know holding each other in bed or maybe it's just a little makeout session like you used to have when you were teenagers

21:05

Speaker A

maybe it's just a hug maybe it's using your hands on each other or oral sex you know there are so many different options to pick from and that can feel a lot easier of a way to start you know being

21:17

Speaker A

intimate with each other again yeah I think the mistake that a lot of couples make though is that you know if if you know if she feels like okay I'm not up for intercourse and therefore you know I

21:29

Speaker A

need to shy away from all physical intimacy because I don't want it to lead to intercourse because I don't feel up to it and that's where so many couples get is this idea that oh well we can't have physical intimacy unless I'm

21:42

Speaker A

willing to have intercourse and so you know you avoid that and then all of a sudden it's like okay well where where is the you know where is that emotional connection between us um and you know it's so easy to just get into whole

21:59

Speaker A

where then it's been like months and months and months without you know one of the most important things in your relationship and so you know just like just like it would be totally normal for any couple to think okay after we have

22:12

Speaker A

kids like our financial situation is going to be different we're going to be spending more right like after we have kids our sleep schedule is going to be different we we're you know there's no way that we're going to be on the same

22:24

Speaker A

schedule I think it's you have to have the same kind of acknowledgement around your sex life or sex life isn't going to look exactly the same way so we have to talk about how we can adjust in ways

22:35

Speaker A

that we can still prioritize intimacy when it comes to almost anything in life a compromise is inevitable and I'm always up for compromising but when it comes to my health both physical and mental compromising is simply not an

22:47

Speaker A

option I spoke at length earlier this year in a YouTube video but truly nothing is worth compromising on when it comes to your well-being and a good doctor therapist support system I need all of them and to that end I am happy

23:00

Speaker A

to be continuing our partnership with our friends at Zach talk for another episode of TFC as I already mentioned over the past month or two I have been doing all of my doctoring that I've been putting off for quite some time

23:11

Speaker A

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23:24

Speaker A

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Speaker A

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Speaker A

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Speaker A

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Speaker A

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Speaker A

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Speaker A

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25:13

Speaker A

things that you might want I did a combination of both they've got fresh produce high quality Meat and seafood healthy snacks smoothies sweets ready to eat meals kids snacks vitamins supplements and more like I said I personally did some of their suggested

25:26

Speaker A

groceries based on meals that they curated but I also swapped out some of the things for other ingredients that I've been wanting to try notably I got this Tandoori Masala paneer that I turned into a really nice indian chopped

25:37

Speaker A

salad the other night which you can see here and tonight I'm going to be making Drunken Noodles with the rice noodles that I got from Hungry root that's true everything from Hungry root follows a simple standard it's got to taste good

25:47

Speaker A

be quick to make and contain whole trusted ingredients right now hungry root is offering the financial confessions listeners 40% off your first delivery and free veggies for Life go to hungryroot.com / TFC to get 40% off your first delivery and get your free veggies

26:03

Speaker A

that's hungryroot.com TFC don't forget to use our link so they know that we sent you well on the childree stuff um because we don't always we don't that often have guests who have made that choice for themselves can you talk about

26:18

Speaker A

what led the two of you to decide not to have children we started our relationship with both of us thinking that we were going to have kids we both just always saw that in our futures we had a lot of

26:31

Speaker A

conversations before we got serious and before we got married making sure we were on the same page and we ended up meeting each other and getting married earlier than I think either of us anticipated finding a life partner and

26:44

Speaker A

so for us it was always this this conversation of yeah let's get married let's enjoy life as a young married couple and we'll have kids later and so we kept checking in with each other as the years went by like is the time

26:57

Speaker A

feeling right for you now is it feeling right for you now and eventually we got to a point where we realized you know this is the time that we quote unquote should be starting to create our family but neither one of us are really feeling

27:12

Speaker A

the active desire for it and so that became the central guiding question for us do we actively want children we'd had this idea in our heads that we did previously we had a ton of societal pressure telling us that we were

27:28

Speaker A

supposed to and that's the next logical step but we kept coming back to that question of is this something that we actively want and I can say for myself in particular I really kept thinking about a potential future child and this

27:47

Speaker A

feeling came up for me so strongly where I thought you know I would want to be able to look my child in the eye and say I wanted you so badly I was so excited to bring you into this

28:01

Speaker A

world for me I knew I knew I would be a great mom I knew that whatever kid I might have I would of course love and it would of course have you know amazing experiences but when I kept coming back

28:13

Speaker A

to that question of you know is this something that I actively want the answer just continued to be no for me and so the the idea of of bringing a life into the world that I didn't actively want just didn't feel right for me and

28:29

Speaker A

that you know that may help other people that may not feel appropriate for other people obviously everybody's journey is different but for us yeah we realized you know it's just not something that we're feeling like we really want to do

28:42

Speaker A

and I think the really interesting thing was you know that for us that decision that you know it wasn't an immediate decision like no we're not going to have kids it was like the first decision was okay well now it's feeling more like we

28:56

Speaker A

might not and so we're going to continue we're going to make life choices that are more in line with not having kids like we're not going to be like you know taking the promotion or the new job or

29:09

Speaker A

you know saving in the way that we might under the assumption that we're going to have kids we'll just you know we'll we'll live our life as if we are not and that was the first I think that was the

29:18

Speaker A

first time for both of us where we really kind of questioned uh a real societal Norm or did something that was really different from what we expected and you know getting back to that question of you know of like gender

29:34

Speaker A

roles and and whatnot like I think it's it can be really hard to to you know to break out of that first box of like okay well I'm a man I'm supposed to take care of my wife financially or like we're

29:49

Speaker A

married we're supposed to have kids and so you know it's it's it's figuring out you know what is that first real big kind of societal Norm that you're actually going to question and make a different decision and then it becomes

30:01

Speaker A

so much easier after that to be like oh oh you know what I did something that people weren't expecting and nobody died in fact I'm I'm thriving everything is great like I could I could keep making decisions that aren't necessarily in in

30:16

Speaker A

the box that that people expect and so you know whether that's around your sex life whether that's around how you do your finances or or what type of work you do or whether you kids I think it's just you know trying to get the courage

30:32

Speaker A

to you know question that first kind of societal assumption and everything gets a lot easier from there well I think your not really your analogy but your sort of thought experiment Vanessa of envisioning this person existing and really asking yourself is this something

30:50

Speaker A

that I very actively want is not an exercise that I think enough people take on not just about having children but so many things that we're taught to want I mean from a financial perspective home ownership is a huge one that most people

31:06

Speaker A

I mean the amount of people who Sleepwalk into home ownership and end up in a very tough financial situation um or who end up in the home that isn't right for them or is too expensive for them because not only are they being

31:17

Speaker A

pressured to do it but that we sort of view it as a threshold of adulthood um or a box to check I mean and the worst case scenario there is like you could I mean end up you know upside down on a

31:29

Speaker A

mortgage or foreclosed on I mean a lot of bad things can happen but in the case of having a child I mean something I often come back to is you know it sounds like you guys had great parents I was

31:38

Speaker A

lucky to have really good parents um but a lot of people don't there are a lot of bad parents out there there are a lot of harmful abusive neglectful you know parents who you know in some cases in

31:54

Speaker A

probably many cases if it had been something that they were more actively able to choose might not have had those children because most people I think on some level are smart enough to know um when they're sort of ready for something

32:07

Speaker A

and it's really important to them and don't get me wrong I'm sure there would still be cases of people who you know desperately want a child and you know just it turns out they couldn't make it work but I think in a lot of cases

32:17

Speaker A

especially in previous generations this was just people defaulted to it and had to in the worst case work themselves back out of it as opposed to in my view with something this consequential it should be something where you start from

32:32

Speaker A

neutral and you work your way into it you know um and it really surprises me that not enough couples in my opinion or when you look at the stats are really kind of thinking that through when it comes to all kinds of life decisions

32:47

Speaker A

that there's not a very active conversation that takes place so for your guys sort of toolkit that you would recommend for couples not not just about sex and intimacy or children or any one particular question is there a way that

33:03

Speaker A

you recommend people approach conversations about big things that can be intimidating or embarrassing or potentially awkward yeah we so we wrote sex talks because we knew that people really struggle to have tough conversations about you know obviously about sex and we all have heard the

33:24

Speaker A

advice to you know oh just talk about it with your partner talk about it more openly but yeah this is going to be a tough conversation just have it yeah we don't know how to have those conversations like what do I say how do

33:35

Speaker A

I say it when do I say it so we wrote the book really with that in mind and we wanted to guide people through a specific journey of these five conversations that we really think will help any couple's love life um so that

33:49

Speaker A

that book is all about you know that communication but I think you know to pull out a couple of pieces from the book one thing and this is another great similarity between money in sex but one thing is the importance of thinking

34:01

Speaker A

about our wants the word that you use Sleepwalk is such a great example like we all Sleepwalk into things so easily like you know home ownership or all these shoulds that we've been taught to have and that comes up with sex as well

34:15

Speaker A

I am supposed to be this way I should do this I should not do that and I think the best antidote to that is for us to flip that question around and ask ourselves what is it that I really want

34:27

Speaker A

not what do I think I'm supposed to or what's the right thing or what's the next step but what is something that I really want so that's a great question to ask yourself and obviously it's a hard one you're you're not going to have

34:39

Speaker A

all the perfect answers just spring up instantly the second that you ask yourself that question but I think just that one step of turning it around and being more active and intentional thinking about what is it that I want

34:53

Speaker A

can be a really beneficial place to start when it comes to you know intimacy between because for me I feel like when it comes to the financial Dynamics between partners most if maybe the majority if not most things can be worked out

35:13

Speaker A

improved upon overcome but there are definitely points at which there's either a an inherent or a willful level of incompatibility um and just you know there's you can't really go beyond that I mean in the case of finances obviously

35:30

Speaker A

Financial abuse but if two people have radically different visions and desires for their financial planning and their priorities and all of these things there can be a situation where you know either it may not be a fit as a relationship or

35:45

Speaker A

you need to have completely separate finances which many couples do I mean my husband and I have almost entirely separate finances for a lot of reasons and that works for us with intimacy you can't really have two entirely different

35:58

Speaker A

intimate lives I mean I suppose you theoretically could but it's definitely an area of sort of enforced compatibility to some extent um you can't really do it in parallel as much do you have a sort of General litmus

36:14

Speaker A

test for when a problem is worth working on and solving versus when it might be time to kind of call it and if people feel like they're in a relationship where sex and intimacy is just not a part of that relation ship do you feel

36:29

Speaker A

like you have any words of advice for people in potentially continuing it well I definitely have to call out like the one option for having the tandem is that we can't have open relationships there are all different sorts of you know

36:41

Speaker A

relationship structures that we think are totally valid and another great example of something couple should actively think about like is monogamy really the model that works for me rather default the default the thing that we're supposed to do so when it

36:56

Speaker A

comes to sexual incomati ility this is something that gives so many of us a lot of anxiety so for one this is why we recommend couples start talking about sex early in their relationship we've worked with so many couples who gotten

37:11

Speaker A

years decades into the relationship and never really talked about it openly and it can feel a lot trickier to be you know really established in a relationship and then finally starting to ask these questions of are we truly

37:24

Speaker A

compatible or not so talking about sex earlier in the relationship is definitely something that's very helpful but when it comes to incompatibilities as a sex therapist I've found that it's often something that we feel more anxious about than actually plays out in

37:41

Speaker A

real life so most couples are going to have I would actually say all couples are going to have incompatibilities to some extent or another like it would be very weird to find a partner who wanted sex at the exact same time you did every

37:56

Speaker A

single time the exact same kind of sex like it's just not really possible yeah just like you wouldn't expect your partner to like spend their you know if you give two partners $100 like you're not going to expect each partner to

38:08

Speaker A

spend their $100 exactly equally right yeah so having that open communication about your sex life is a great way to help you recognize that those incompatibilities or those differences are just normal and okay another piece of this is

38:24

Speaker A

recognizing that you know that it is um very normal for us to you know to have these differences and things that we want and and sometimes like when we're able to talk about them out loud you recognize okay yeah maybe I would love a

38:39

Speaker A

partner who was into exploring this certain fantasy with me or I would love to have a partner who might want to try this with me when you're able to just say it out loud and your partner can say

38:50

Speaker A

hey yeah maybe that's not something that's so interesting to me or I'm not I'm not really open to doing that you can feel a little bit bummed out like if of course you wanted to explore that with your partner that makes sense but

39:01

Speaker A

for most people it's not going to be a huge deal breaker so that's really the point that you have to get to to decide whether or not this is truly going to be an issue being able to say it out loud

39:12

Speaker A

and talk about like yeah is this something that you're interested in and seeing what your partner thinks from there another piece of it too is that there are always little pieces of it to play with too so your partner might say

39:25

Speaker A

oh well you know I'm not really interested in the whole you know fantasy that you have but maybe I'd try this little piece of it or I'd be curious about doing this little thing or you know there a lot of different ways to

39:36

Speaker A

like get creative with it yeah I think that we we so often tend to really not want to have these conversations about potential incompatibilities when it comes to sex because we're so worried that we're going to find out like oh

39:50

Speaker A

this like my partner hates this they're going to you know I'm going to feel ashamed and it's never going to happen and yeah like has said it's hard for us to really know how we're actually going to feel about something until we hear

40:04

Speaker A

from our partner like are are they open to this or not like you know it might even feel to you in your head like oh my God if they are not into this it's a total deal breaker for me but then the

40:17

Speaker A

reality is when you actually talk about it you might find it not feeling like that or it might even be the other way around it's like there's no way for you to know until you actually have that conversation and again that's why it's

40:29

Speaker A

so nice to to try to talk about these things earlier on so that you just have those data points you're going into a relationship eyes wide open like knowing what you can reasonably expect and what you can't reasonably expect but you know

40:45

Speaker A

at the end of the day I think it's you know you got to just have that conversation and then assess okay how do I really truly feel about this and yeah and if you do get to the point where

40:57

Speaker A

there are enough things where it's like okay I just you know I do feel like I can't be fulfilled in the way that I want to then that that maybe is a good sign that you know it could be time to

41:10

Speaker A

move on but there's really no way to know until you actually have that conversation well on the point of you know non- monogamy and polyamory it's a conversation that I always like I like that we're having a more you

41:27

Speaker A

know open-minded conversation I mean to your point like the fact that we're now able to more openly choose not to have children for example like even for the people who don't do it it's likely of some benefit to have the conversation

41:42

Speaker A

because it puts a higher it it makes you think it makes everyone think more critically about it the more it's a it's a question that you arrive to An Answer rather than a default conclusion that I completely agree with however I do

41:55

Speaker A

sometimes worry when you know know that we're not that we're having the conversation about opening relationships romantically but yet it's happening on a backdrop of a real cultural crisis especially in hetero marriages of men as they age put Simply

42:13

Speaker A

Having no friends um where women are kind of the center of the man's emotional life she is his sort of checks every box for emotional fulfillment he she you know dictates the social life she makes the plan she maintains the

42:30

Speaker A

connections she is the one that he tells his secrets to and he probably the only person he says I love you too in many cases and you know for me I I often ask myself you know are are we as couples

42:46

Speaker A

even looking into how Diversified we are emotionally platonically not even romantically like for me it's like I don't care who your husband's sleeping with but how many like people does he say I love you to in his life and and

42:59

Speaker A

you know not need to be having sex with that person in order to feel it because we've so heavily conditioned uh relationships to kind of function this way and we see all of the really negative Health impacts of that social

43:11

Speaker A

isolation amongst men and and what it does to women as a result as well um and I'm I'm interested as to where platonic intimacy and platonic love kind of factors into your view of a healthy sex and intimacy life in your marriage or

43:28

Speaker A

relationship it's a really really great topic to bring up I mean if you look at the history of marriages we're living in this time where we put more pressure on our romantic relationships than we ever have before you know where in the past

43:44

Speaker A

it was just a a financial Arrangement or a security Arrangement the bonding of two tribes where now it's you know our partner has this we have this pressure that they're supposed to be our best friend and our lover and our you know

43:57

Speaker A

teammate and our Confidant and all the things you know our soulmate that one person in the entire world that we were truly meant to be with it's an incredible pressure and you layer that on top of all these aspects of

44:11

Speaker A

masculinity that we were starting to talk about earlier uh you know where this this difficult socialization that men receive around needing to be competent all the time not being able to ask for help not showing emotions you know I think male friendship is really

44:28

Speaker A

interesting topic that so many men struggle with of like yeah how do you create meaningful relationships with somebody if you don't feel societal permission to express your inner world to another person so there can be this extra layer of pressure coming from Men

44:45

Speaker A

on you know this my wife my girlfriend this is the one person in the world that I feel comfortable sharing my inner world with and then I think on top of that too you know most men have been

44:56

Speaker A

conditioned that that you know it's not okay to show emotion outside of kind of two things and I think that would be Sports and sex you know it's like when your team wins the big game or loses the

45:08

Speaker A

big game you get to be like really happy you get to cry that's fine and then sex is like the other way where men are allowed to express that emotion sex or you know the direct aftermath of sex

45:22

Speaker A

right and so you know then that adds this other layer of pressure for the life where it's like if the you know if the sex isn't happening in just the way that he wants it he can feel like well

45:34

Speaker A

like now I don't have any outlet for my emotions at all and this also we're kind of taking this in a slightly different direction than where you were asking it but this also feeds into desire as well you know a lot of women feel that

45:47

Speaker A

pressure from their partner and you know it starts to feel like it it decreases your desire from them I mean desire needs some amount of distance in order to really be able to flourish and so when you feel your partner being reliant

46:00

Speaker A

on you for all all the things in their life like it makes it hard to also tune into sexual desire 100% also Xander I regret to inform you that there's a whole subd discourse on you know like men not

46:16

Speaker A

expressing themselves in certain ways even during sex because that's too effeminate or too um you know vulnerable or whatever so even that's off the table now sorry sorry fellas it's actually it's actually gay to have hetero intercourse now so we're out of

46:32

Speaker A

options um no I think that's true I mean I that lack of desire you know that you're pointing to when you feel so overburdened to be so much for the other person I think that really comes back to

46:45

Speaker A

what we discussed at the beginning was we have so many hetero Partnerships that are so out of whack in terms of what each person is asking of the and also I mean listen all of this against the backdrop of late capitalism

47:01

Speaker A

we're all exhausted we're all overworked and underpaid so there's that whole sort of context to it as well but there's at least in my view there's this really strong feeling that you know we are increasingly to your point asking so

47:16

Speaker A

much of our Partnerships that even in the best case scenario no two people can really fully provide to each other um so even in your own Mar Mar like what are ways in which you kind of relieve the

47:30

Speaker A

pressure from each other well friendships is definitely a really important one you know I think a lot of couples get into the habit of socializing with other couples and it it's easy right like yeah we'll just do the double date the triple date you know

47:44

Speaker A

but we do try to be really intentional about having separate friendships and pursuing times separately you know with with friends that that helps a lot also just having separate Hobbies um being able to have time away from each other

47:59

Speaker A

where we're doing our own things you know especially as a couple who is married and also works together we spend a lot of time together so we have to be really intentional about creating those separate interests but I think that you

48:11

Speaker A

know hobbies in in particular can be really beneficial because we get to learn new things about each other and see each other in new lights and you know like Xander's a surfer that's his one of his Main Hobbies and that's not

48:24

Speaker A

of any interest to me I've tried it a few times it is not my but to be able to hear you know see him exploring that and you know gaining competence in it and sharing stories with me like I think that's that can be

48:36

Speaker A

a really great way of just feeling like yeah he has that other outlet and then I get to feel the excitement and joy from it but I also get to benefit from that being his Outlet yeah I think uh I think

48:48

Speaker A

that you know the the way I also look at it too is like you know Vanessa and I show up as a team in terms of trying to take care of all the tasks around the house whether that's work

49:02

Speaker A

stuff or house stuff so that we can each give each other the space to do all the things that we need and that's kind of a way that's helped me sort of conceptualize like you know our division of labor so to speak where it's like

49:16

Speaker A

yeah you know hey we live in a house together we have a household we got to do a lot of stuff um and yeah like if I want to if I want to get up early and like surf all morning because there's

49:26

Speaker A

Great Waves like yeah I got to do some things to support us being able to do that and so you know I think that this can be a whole a virtuous cycle if you know if you are in a relationship and

49:39

Speaker A

you guys each can figure out hey what are the things that we want to do on our own outside of this you know how much time is that going to take how much money is that going to take okay so how

49:48

Speaker A

are we going to each set ourselves up for Success you know that gives you the motivation right there to start you know splitting up tasks and actually be motivated to get ahead on things so that you can have time for stuff I think that

50:02

Speaker A

you know a lot of guys can fall into that trap of like all right well I just want to come home from work and like sit on the couch and watch TV and like you're not really thinking about like oh

50:12

Speaker A

okay well how can I how can I help out because you know I haven't been conditioned to think that way and so you I think that just yeah the separate time and the Hobbies really play an important role in you know in being motivated for

50:29

Speaker A

you know to spend time together and have that intimacy because we've been a part but also being motivated and excited about the household labor that is required to make that space very Esther Parell by the way to like need to see someone doing their own

50:44

Speaker A

thing um and getting to see them through different eyes I like I'm a big ESR Perell fan as well and I I always that always sticks out to me because I do think it's something that we don't especially again

50:57

Speaker A

for women who I think we often take so much of their identity away especially as they become mothers that you don't get to see them doing and being themselves and not that obviously I mean you know being a wonderful mother and

51:12

Speaker A

getting so much joy and satisfaction out of that of course is a beautiful thing as well but that we allow people to be less and less of themselves we don't like people to have multiple identities we don't like and I think there can

51:25

Speaker A

often be an an more healthy relationship so real territorial I mean I know I know that there are people I'm sure you've encountered them in your clinical work who get envious if their spouse spends time with other people even platonically

51:38

Speaker A

or does other Hobbies so kind of as a final thing to think about if you are one of those people who finds yourself feeling you know whether it's envious or slighted or you just can't find yourself being happy for your

51:57

Speaker A

partner the way that you would like to be what are some things that you would suggest to allow that person to kind of work it out on their own as well as in tandem with that with their partner what

52:09

Speaker A

that indicates to me as a therapist is that you're feeling dissatisfied with the quality time that you're getting with your partner if you're feeling jealous of them you know having other friendships or exploring other interests like it it seems that you feel like

52:25

Speaker A

you're not getting that part of them like some somebody else is getting to experience them in a certain way so rather than fixating on the external things that they're doing I would really take a look at what is that time that

52:35

Speaker A

the two of you are spending together I mean a lot of couples fall into the Trap of spending time in each other's presence but not actually being fully present with each other so no the two of you sitting on opposite ends of the

52:49

Speaker A

couch watching TV while you're also scrolling on your phones doesn't count as quality time so we have to be more intentional about about what is that time that we're actually spending together are we having meaningful conversations or are we um there's a

53:03

Speaker A

really interesting statistic that uh when people be when couples become parents somewhere like 40% of their conversations become purely transactional just about scheduling and who's doing what so you know are you actually having meaningful conversations with your partner are you spending time

53:19

Speaker A

doing things that you love doing new things together so you get some of that you know excitement um of just being together so I would look there and and the second place that I would look too is looping in all these themes that

53:33

Speaker A

we've been talking about like do you feel like your partner is a true partner or are you feeling like hey I'm over here carrying 95% of the emotional load doing 95% of the tasks and responsibilities while you're out there

53:48

Speaker A

chugging beers with your friends or you know hanging out and doing other stuff so I would I would look there too and I think the last place you could also look like you know if if it's not what

53:58

Speaker A

Vanessa just said of like you know like okay you know you're you're just out there having fun while I'm you know picking up all the slack you could also look at okay am I feeling jealous because my my partner's out there

54:11

Speaker A

hanging out with with their friends like huh do you know do I actually wish that I was hanging out with my friends more was am I actually wishing that I could have some more I I would love some more

54:23

Speaker A

friendships and like you know once you think about it that way it becomes pretty clear okay the answer is not they aren't allowed to hang out with friends the answer is maybe I need to put myself out there a little more and call up some

54:35

Speaker A

of my friends or put myself in a situation where I can make some new friends because yeah you know the answer should never be like oh let's just restrict what somebody else wants to do so I can feel better about myself like

54:48

Speaker A

how can I feel better about myself how can I get the same thing that I see my my partner getting well this was a delightful conversation I very rarely speak to two people at once let alone a couple but you guys

55:01

Speaker A

have like such a perfect little symphony going um which I'm sure is obviously from your podcast but still delightful um so on that note I know the paperback uh edition of your book sex talk just came out so where can people go to get

55:13

Speaker A

it you can go to sex talks book.com to find links to all the major retailers and we also have a quick little form that you can fill out on that page where we'll send you a free workbook to help

55:25

Speaker A

you dive even deeper into to the book wonderful well thank you both van almost said Vander and zanessa thank you so much Xander and Vanessa for joining us and thank you all at home for tuning in and I will see you

55:38

Speaker A

back here next week on an all new episode of the financial confessions bye everyone thank you so much for joining us and be sure to tune in next week for an all new episode of the financial confessions the financial confessions is

55:51

Speaker A

created by the financial diet and hosted by me Chelsea Fagen it is produced by Alexa Brooks and Holly tranm recording and editing by Emily fer and music and sound effects are from epidemic sound want more of our content head over to

56:04

Speaker A

our YouTube page the financial diet to see our monthly deep Dives videos of this show and our entire backlog of videos and podcasts I'll talk to you next week [Music]

Topics: relationships money and marriage sex therapy intimacy gender roles domestic labor couples communication parenthood Pillow Talk The Financial Diet

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